What I learned today on DU:

[xulamaude]

That radical feminists are at "war" and that they are "possibly dangerous".

What have YOU learned today?

[Jackpine Radical]

1. Nothing until just now, when I learned

that dangerous radical feminists are out to get me.

The only thing that really scares me about that is that my wife might not approve.

[seabeyond]

4. The only thing that really scares me about that... lmFao, that was funny. nt

[xulamaude]

9. I'm 'possibly sure' that your wife need not worry

about marauding radical feminists knocking on your door and... uh, discussing feminist issues with you?

You know, like Jehovah's Witnesses do.

lol

[gollygee]

2. I learned

that Christians should be allowed to legally discriminate against the LGBT community, and that President Obama wouldn't have been elected if he'd been white.

I think this place is actually getting more and more conservative.

[xulamaude]

13. It is. nt

[BainsBane]

14. I know a few Republicans

like my brother in law, who would NEVER say anything so reactionary as these characters.

[seabeyond]

18. ah. my father. the reasonable republican, a lifetime that voted obama. nt

[BainsBane]

19. My brother in law did in 2008

I think he probably voted for Romney in 2012

[NYC_SKP]

3. Sometimes I wish I didn't learn so much on DU.

If you know what I mean.

[nomorenomore08]

29. Or that people didn't know so much that ain't so...

[LanternWaste]

5. uplifting messages, no matter how positive, should be suspect if backed by a shampoo company

Uplifting messages, no matter how positive, should be suspect if partially endorsed by a shampoo company.

I'm a traitor to my gender (or yours?) because I use shampoo in the morning...

[xulamaude]

12. It is strange that it only airs in some other country.

That's another thing I learned today.

[Warpy]

6. You mean they're tired of being devalued, raped, beaten in their own homes?

Gee whiz, what a surprise.

And men think objecting to that means we've declared war against them.

[xulamaude]

7. It's WAR I tell you!

And war of a possibly dangerous nature... .....

Oh boy.

[seabeyond]

11. where did you see this revere call: the feminists are comin', the feminist are comin'.... lol

Mary Gawthorpe (1881-1973) British suffragette and trade unionist, strongly involved in the Women's Social and Political Union in Leeds. She was imprisoned a number of times and badly beaten for her political activities. Later she co-edited The Freewoman: A Weekly Feminist Review.

[seabeyond]

8. i learned i could say happy holiday to a fellow duer i have been battlin' with for a long long time,

and be sincere. and that the poster can be equally sincere back, wishing me a happy holiday, too.

that one was fun.

oh.... i love chirstmas. didnt just learn that today. have known for a long long time.

i will think about this cause i havent been messin' with du much, of late.

oh oh... i learned not all uncle dicks are the same

lmFao. i am so damn funny.

[xulamaude]

10. Maybe I should start a whole new thread

for Uncle Dick jokes?

I AM TOTALLY KIDDING!

Cheers, dahling!

[ismnotwasm]

15. Ugh

I've trashed one thread already.

[xulamaude]

16. The thread was so bad that there isn't even a joke

to be had from it?

That's pretty bad.

[xulamaude]

17. I read somewhere recently - it could have been here

or at some other "possibly dangerous" feminist place - a bit (informal 'study') where the interviewer asked:

Men, what do you fear most about women? "That she will laugh at me."

Women, what do you most fear about men? "That he will kill me."

[BlueToTheBone]

31. Brave women fear nothing

brave men fear women.

[In_The_Wind]

20. I learned to like a DUer ot two that I never knew at all before today.

[xulamaude]

21. That's wonderful! nt

[Squinch]

22. Dammit! You guys never send me the memo. Who are we at war with? I don't even know where to go!

And, dammit! I have a machete!

No one even offered me a ride to the war.

I'm hurt.

[seabeyond]

23. You are scary. I want to hang with you. Ah ha. Nt

[Squinch]

24. Oh, NOW you want to hang with me!

[seabeyond]

28. You betcha. Positioned more like, behind you. Nt

[xulamaude]

25. Dang. It seems that the quarter-amazon-master

overlooked your name in the muster.

My apologies. You and your machete will be receiving orders forthwith.

[Squinch]

26. .

[MannyGoldstein]

27. I learned that cutting wo rker salaries to increase "defense" spending

is a good thing.

[seabeyond]

30. oh wow. what board are we on? looking around. wow. nt

[ismnotwasm]

32. Are you serious?

And I hate that smilie.

[KitSileya]

33. That if I think a school are right to enforce their regulations on inappropriate touching

I am a nazi.

[seabeyond]

34. because boys will be boys? would that be the 6 yr old kissing? i didnt go into the thread.

but, when son was 5, he had a little girl kiss him and the outrage from the little dude. to this day, a decade later, he is still pissed about that. and ya. the teacher stepped in and addressed the issue with the little girl and her parents.

[KitSileya]

43. Yes. This gets me so worked up -

when I was in 5th grade, I had two boys in my class that decided they were in love with me (more in competition with each other than any serious regard for me) and they pretty much made the whole school year hell. In the end, I took to shrieking loudly every time they got close to me, and the adults thought it was the most precious thing ever - being pinched and petted and touched was just a way for them to show their puppy love, doncha know. One of them molested me with his brother and a friend, as they grabbed me and held me on their laps, touching and tickling me, and even with plenty of people, including my own father, walking past, they didn't react because I was laughing. And being tickled is also something people must put up with even if they hate it and feel it violates their bodily autonomy, because, of course, they wouldn't laugh if they didn't like it?

We teach girls that their bodies aren't their own, that they have to let any random dude kiss them, and it starts with kids this young and younger. The principal is giving all the children in that school a powerful lesson in what happens if you touch someone inappropriately, and it is a much needed lesson.

[seabeyond]

51. yes. nt

[xulamaude]

58. Tickling...

my brother would tickle me to the point that I would go completely wild. He is 6 years older than me. I would be shamed for freaking out.

I made a point of almost never tickling my daughter (especially when she was very young) and on the rare occasion I do, I let her know it's coming and she still gets pissed off. That's my girl!

[xulamaude]

35. Was that the 6 year-old kissing thread?

Because if so, I agree that inappropriate touching needs to be taken seriously even if it's just 'little kids'.

That's where it starts.

[KitSileya]

46. It is indeed.

Of course, by insisting that this behavior be adressed, we awful feminists are only setting boys up for failing in school, preparing this boy for the school-to-prison pipeline, and, my favorite, "sexualizing" innocent children's sweet affection (because teaching 6-year olds that they are "boyfriend and girlfriend" isn't warping the interactions between boys and girls that age, but stopping unwanted touching is.)

[xulamaude]

48. Like Sea, I stayed outta that one.

My post count is way too low for that!

[seabeyond]

52. bah hahaha. and me? i am waaaay tired of this not thinking thru that creates a world of hurt for

all of us.

[redqueen]

59. Wow. There are two threads on that boy being suspended.

Yet a thread about a Navy officer getting away with raping his own daughter, and after he got away with that, he got promoted twice, while his ex wife and the children he molested (his daughter *and* son) live in a squalid motel?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024156761

That seems to have sunk like a rock.

[KitSileya]

61. To be honest, tho, I think the lack of replies were because there was no disagreement

Everyone agrred with what the previous posters said, and they just didn't reiterate it.

[redqueen]

62. There was a lot more to the story.

Guess not many were very interested.

Just not as compelling as the "issue" of a boy being suspended from school.

[BainsBane]

36. I get told all the time I'm a "radical feminist"

I fail to see what is radical about my views on gender. They are pretty basic. All human beings deserve equal rights. Women's rights are human rights. Rape is a serious crime whether committed against men, women, boys, or girls and should be treated as such. Rape culture is a problem and we must work to combat it. Combating includes challenging victim blaming and rape apology. No accused rapist is above the law. It doesn't matter how great a guy you think someone is; victims still deserve their day in court. Domestic violence against women in particular is a serious problem. No one should have to lead their lives in fear of violence in any form, whether from a stranger, a partner, or a family member.

I'll admit to being a radical on economic/class issues, but my position on feminism and equal rights is pretty basic.

[seabeyond]

37. here you go. a definition of radical fem. see how very radical it is. like it is an insult.

radical feminism
Web definitions
Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that focuses on the hypothesis of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on the assertion that male supremacy oppresses women. ...

Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that focuses on the hypothesis of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on the assertion that male supremacy[1] oppresses women. Radical feminism aims to challenge and overthrow patriarchy by opposing standard gender roles and oppression of women and calls for a radical reordering of society.[1] Early radical feminism, arising within second-wave feminism in the 1960s,[2] typically viewed patriarchy as a "transhistorical phenomenon"[3] prior to or deeper than other sources of oppression, "not only the oldest and most universal form of domination but the primary form"[4] and the model for all others.[4] Later politics derived from radical feminism ranged from cultural feminism[1] to more syncretic politics that placed issues of class, economics, etc. on a par with patriarchy as sources of oppression.[5]

Radical feminists locate the root cause of women's oppression in patriarchal gender relations, as opposed to legal systems (as in liberal feminism) or class conflict (as in socialist feminism and Marxist feminism).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

[BainsBane]

38. so it doesn't involve separatism?

Because I've known some separatist feminists. Well, one is now married to a man, but she was separatist for a while.
I fail to see what's so radical about recognizing patriarchy. Seems pretty damn basic to me. I don't see patriarchy as necessarily deeper than other forms of oppression, but it certainly is more widely justified. Look around.

[seabeyond]

39. yup. but forget the actual definition. remember, we are working with people here that REdefine

words to suit agenda.

[BainsBane]

40. with very antiquated views, IMO

[seabeyond]

41. i kept getting insulted being called radical. looked it up and was all over.... wha? that is

what they are insulting me with.

hm

ok

i am raidical. hear me roar. lol

[BainsBane]

42. Hey, why not

I just thought it was something else.

[xulamaude]

45. It's not :)

Looks like you ARE a radical feminist after all!

[xulamaude]

47. No, it doesn't at all :) nt

[MadrasT]

54. Radical feminism does not involve separatism by default.

Or transphobia (though some folks love to push that tired meme).

Possibly some folks who identify as "radical feminists" embrace one or both of those positions. As far as I am concerned they are a subcategory of "separatist feminists" or "transphobic feminists" within the larger group.

I think of myself as a radical feminist. I do not wish to separate myself from men. And as a transgender (nongendered) human, I fully support everyone's right to gender self-identification and freedom of expression, regardless of one's physical container.

I am not giving up the identity because there are a few loudmouth assholes in the bunch. There are loudmouth assholes in every bunch.

That would be like abandoning Christianity because of the Westboro Baptist Church. Absurd.

[redqueen]

60. It's funny how hard some people work to push that radfem = transphobe shit, isn't it?

Yeah... funny.

Ironically, the more these idiots yammer on with their disinformation, the more feminists get exposed to radical feminism, and the more people start learning about patriarchy and even becoming radical feminists themselves.

So we really should be thanking them.

[seabeyond]

63. you mean the mens group obsession? and they just want to get people worked up to get women kicked

off du. a pretty obvious and disgusting manipulation on their part with no shame. it is top on their agenda to only smear feminists with transphobia.

men, that really do not give a flying fuck about feminists but that they step on their other other obsession, objectifying and pornifying women as a whole.

[BainsBane]

69. I hear someone there accused me of being a transphobe

Last edited Thu Dec 12, 2013, 05:49 PM - Edit history (1)

I didn't see the comment myself, but it came from a highly reliable source. I feel quite certain I have never posted anything that could be considered transphobic.

[redqueen]

79. They're doing the same thing Fox News does, it's like

calling all environmentalists 'terrorists' because there are a few who destroy private property. It's like calling all Muslims "extremists" because some are in extremist movements.

It's malicious distortion intended to smear a group of people, in other words.

[xulamaude]

56. To elaborate on 'separtism':

I'm also considered a separatist because:

I choose to limit my contact with men when and where I can. I prefer the company and service of women generally speaking, but that is not always possible what with half of the population being men (and a disproportionate number of men being in the 'hard service' industries, plumbing HVAC etc.) so I get along.

Other women have different criteria for separatism, but the label is always used as a pejorative amongst men when they use it.

[xulamaude]

44. It is pretty basic.

And it's very telling that we still have to keep repeating ourselves endlessly to very little avail.

One of the 'guys' asks why isn't just "feminism" enough? Why all these delineations? And I have to say that on the face of it I should agree with him BUT with the never ending backlash against women who stand up for women the meaning of feminism has been deliberately fractured by men, and the women who (for whatever reason) align with them.

For example, my mom is a liberal and a feminist - she wanted (and fought for) rights for women in the workplace, in the home, and simply to exist in a safe and free environment - but she is also a rape/porn apologist. She calls me a radical because I will not tolerate her unwillingness to address those issues which are clearly harmful to girls and women.

I accept the "radical" label the same way I accept the "lesbian" label - these are delineations that have been placed on me because of my views and the person I've chosen to build my life with. I'd rather that people label me by my name and nothing more.

[BainsBane]

49. That's how I feel

Let me express my ideas. Why label me? I am not a wave of a school of thought. I am a person who thinks for myself.
But whatever. There are worse things in life than being called radical, that's for sure.

[xulamaude]

50. Call me a ham hoagie, what do I care? lol :)

[seabeyond]

53. we didnt even know about the damn waves 2 yrs ago. we had to educate ourselves fast,

as we were being attacked by waves... lol

[MadrasT]

55. I know, right?

That was nuts.

HEY I SAW AN ARTICLE ON "FOURTH WAVE" today... we have ANOTHER WAVE COMING, DUCK!!!

The fourth wave of feminism: meet the rebel women
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/fourth-wave-feminism-rebel-women

(Maybe I should make an OP... think I will.)

[seabeyond]

57. yup. saw and gonna read in a bit. i am an odd gus, how i go about reading OPs. lol. but,

thrilled you put it up.

when i get something new, i have to let it warm up to my place, before i find it's place. lol

[redqueen]

64. So glad you did!

[chervilant]

78. + a gazillion

In general, when I encounter men who are anti-feminists and pro-patriarchy, I use Satyagraha: I point out that patriarchy oppresses both genders, and how; then I discuss 'power over' dynamics, and ask how does anyone respect someone they think is 'less than'? I have more in my 'arsenal,' mostly addressing relationship violence and poisonous pedagogy. Invariably, men are defensive about the Patriarchy, especially if it's the source of their sense of entitlement.

[TreasonousBastard]

65. I learned that people don't always read...

the part of the post that explains this is a common human condition and has nothing to do specifically with feminism or gender.

Unless, of course, one truly believes that feminism cannot possibly fall into the same traps that every other human endeavor seems to find so attractive.

But, so it goes. I've learned to expect misreadings, not just of my posts and not just in this forum, to be all too common around here.

My last foray in here, btw, was to recommend an excellent book I thought everyone would be interested in. One or two were, but the thread was immediately hijacked over one word. An innocuous word in most conversations, but enough harping on it to cause me to delete my OP.

So it goes.

[BainsBane]

66. I don't know which post you are referring to

but I have seen those same comments in the OP MANY times.

[TreasonousBastard]

72. Well I can't imagine that it was coincidence...

that certain words were used in the OP. I won't speculate on why a link wasn't included.

At the risk of causing further iration (Is that a word? Should it be one?) I give you my apparently inflammatory post in the Men's Group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=11918

[BainsBane]

73. Oh no

I won't go there. My blood pressure can't take it.

[redqueen]

67. What thread are you talking about?

What book did you recommend?

Are you sure that was in HoF, and not Feminists?

[TreasonousBastard]

70. My apologies. You are right-- it was Feminists...

the search came up with no threads I started here. I posted it somewhere else, too, but can't find where.

Anyway, here's the kerfuffle and a subsequent repost the host asked for:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11399181

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11399260

[BainsBane]

71. I've heard of that book

A lot of thing are running through my head, but I'll just ask you. Why do you think it important for us to read that book? What lesson are we supposed to learn?

[TreasonousBastard]

74. This part...

"On what it's like for mothers who have children conceived in rape"

It's a very good discussion, and the children of rape are discussed too.

Quite frankly, I don't care one way or the other who reads the book-- I just heard the interview that day, bought the book, and put it out there in case anyone else may be interested.

[BainsBane]

75. Given you raised it again (thinking you had already mentioned it here)

I wondered if you thought there was a lesson we were supposed to learn from the book?

[TreasonousBastard]

76. The book probably has lots of lessons, but I was...

reminded of the kerfuffle.

Wrong group, though-- sorry about that.

[BainsBane]

77. We don't always draw blood

Occasionally someone survives with his limbs intact.

[redqueen]

80. Ah no need to apologize, no harm no foul.

I read the second link and your last post there was spot on.

[BainsBane]

68. Could you provide links

So we know what you're talking about?

[xulamaude]

82. Hi TB. There was no misreading on my part and I think it is/would be clear

to any one who may read the post wherein you say those two things (thanks for the link BTW - I do not link to anything as a rule) 'what I did there'. I mean, I understood what you meant but you did say both of those things basically in the same breath and I thought it was funny.

Like haha funny - because it brought to mind an image of a slavering pack of wild radfems running loose in the streets... or something.
And it's just total bullshit to even imply that even some fringy wacko radfems could be "possibly dangerous" - pure, unadulterated bullshit. Unless being confronted with some uncomfortable truths about the status of women and girls is somehow dangerous to you.

Just poking a little fun there TB - can't you take a joke?

[BainsBane]

84. Short answer

No.

I have notice great outrage when feminists say anything related to someone else's comments that doesn't replicate syllable by syllable the original comment, and under no circumstances is analysis or poking fun permitted. Yet somehow they feel entitled in trivializing and completely ignoring our arguments in favor of their own internal dialog and parody.

[TreasonousBastard]

86. Well, it didn't sound like a joke...

In context with a lot of other things it sounded like a callout.

But then the "dangerous" part was about radicals in general-- including anarchist bombers, angry and violent women haters, and others who are, well, dangerous. Not all radicals, just some of them. That whole paragraph was about the base human condition and not specifically about any women of any sort.

Are you saying that there is never the possibility of a woman losing it and, say, cutting her husband's penis off? Or drowning her children? Those incidents weren't from any feminist ideology, but who's to say it won't ever happen? Or has happened and I just don't know about it and don't want to spend time searching?

Besides, "danger" is not always physical-- some ideologies can have social dangers as real as physical ones.

[xulamaude]

87. "some ideologies can have social dangers as real as physical ones."

Yeah, I've noticed that.

As to joke v callout: often the jokes made at women's expense seem like callouts too.

ETA maybe you need to grow a thicker skin?

[seabeyond]

81. what i learned, stepping into 6 yr old boy thread. the same people that tell us it is cool buying

women, enjoy watching rape porn that looks real, also suggest that a 6 yr old repeatedly kissing a girl, stopping her from the freedom of the play ground, ignoring teachers and the girl telling him to stop, is a "normal" boy and should be left alone.

what i also learned is that i am a man hater cause as a parent i feel i have a responsibility to connect with my children, know what is going on in their lives, teach them boundaries so they can successfully navigate life, protect both gender from abuse in a school setting. because i feel i have a responsibility to teach my children life lessons to make all of life easier for them, and because i feel the mother failed this 6 yr old boy, i hate the boy.

reason and logic, reality left the boards....

[xulamaude]

83. Sure, it's "normal" behavior

but it's not the kind of "normal" I want my world to be.

[seabeyond]

85. having two boys, i would adamently say that the progressive behavior of harassment is anything close

to normal. raising two boys and being around their friends, the nephews i have, and two brothers i grew up with, that is NOT normal behavior.

i defend the boys. i will not allow society to create them less, , than what they are.

[JI7]

102. one came out and just blamed women for being raped

in that thread.

said he had no sympathy for them because they brought it on themselves because of things like what they wear. so he must be blaming the girl for the boy going after her .

this person also had a history of racist posts.

[seabeyond]

103. and more than one are attacking the mother and little girl. starting early blaming the victim.

demanding the girl learn all kinds of ways to protect herself. telling a teacher is not one of them. truly.... amazing. a mom speaks up for her daughter being bullied and she is crazy, helicopter parent, threatened suing and all kinds of things. she has to teach her daughter to avoid the boy, adjust her experience at school and she is the bad parent.

the boy who is misbehaving is normal. doing normal boy stuff. the mom that excuses the behavior is fine. lying is fine. putting out to her son sexual harassment is fine. going to fox is fine.

topsy turvey.

[redqueen]

109. Some incredible displays of internalized patriarchy in those threads.

So many people apparently so proud of their sadly regressive views.

That they side so willingly with Fox News spin seems not to faze them at all.

[seabeyond]

110. "they side so willingly with Fox News spin" i totally recognize that hypocrisy... but,

i have been spending so much time simply putting out the facts over and over and over again, i have not even addressed that hypocrisy.

[BainsBane]

104. Did you try alerting?

[JI7]

105. it was already and the post was hidden

but he started off the whole thing with men being victims so i think he was trying to make the point that it was the guys who rape who are the real victims .

[BainsBane]

106. Did you check to see if he is still an active member?

I'm not on MIRT anymore so I don't get PPR alerts.

[xulamaude]

108. Still active... nt

[xulamaude]

88. Oooo, oooo, ooo

Today I learned that choosing to spend my time with women is just like being a racist!

Because, you know, all women on planet Earth are white...

ETA - it's just assumed that I'm white myself?

[seabeyond]

89. huh. are you allowed to be gay? or does that make you a genderist. only having sex with

women. hmmmm. a thought

[xulamaude]

90. Or like, what if I choose to

not hang out with violent, mean people... what does that make me??

Some phobic bigot who doesn't like being afraid of being beat up??

[seabeyond]

91. i personally do not like trash. i have always stayed away from it. i even have the boys take

it out

otherwise.. meh. i am a lover, not a hater. lol

[BainsBane]

92. Really? Does that apply to gay men as well?

Suddenly being a lesbian is like being a white supremacist? Sounds a might homophobic to me.
Damn, I really need to become a lesbian. If you know anyone with patience for a late bloomer, let me know.

[MadrasT]

93. Heh.

I know a fair number of lesbian separatist feminists. And I also know a fair number of men who really really dislike them... for no other reason than these women do not really want to pander to them or hang out with them.

It really, really irks these men that there is a small subset of women on the planet who just seem to have no use for them.

I am just like "*shrug* OK whatevs. Their thing is not your thing. So what? The other 3 or 4 billion women on the planet aren't enough for you?"

Hell... these (hetero) guys I know are not "hanging out" with gay men, either... does it actually boil down to only wanting to associate with fuck-targets? Ugh.

[redqueen]

94. The lack of empathy is stunning.

These people either know or are choosing to ignore the prevalence of incest, sexual abuse, rape, domestic violence, etc. -- they know how likely it is that many girls and women have had traumatizing experiences with boys or men. They know the likelihood that so many women could be seriously uncomfortable around men.

Yet what matters more? Their feelings. Certainly that's more important than someone with PTSD not being triggered. Certainly.

If someone gets bitten by a dog and fears dogs no one calls them an anti-dog bigot for not wanting to be around dogs.

But girls and women are supposed to just "get over" being raped, beaten, etc. Often by relatives, friends, and lovers. And if they don't smile and make nice nice with men in general? If they spend time calling out the many fucked up aspects of our culture which contributed to the harm done to them?

Well then they're just emotionally unstable! They're seriously damaged!

Surely no one should be subjected to the opinions of women who have survived trauma! Let alone actually listen to them!

People who play that game, who are so blatant with their callous disregard and outright hate, literally turn my stomach.

[BainsBane]

95. Bah, rape. Incest shincest

Rad feminists are just too uptight about sex. It's all that sex negativity, dontcha know. Real women know enough to lay back and enjoy it. And if we object to being smacked around, we're just too judgemental. So a man wants to knock us around a bit. Who are we to judge? All we do is punish men.

[smirkymonkey]

162. *This*

That's what makes me so angry. The complete lack of empathy for people who have been victimized. Because their egos and precious widdle feelings are so much more important than the trauma of victims of abuse and rape.

[seabeyond]

163. *this* lol

we are all *this*'ing stuff with each other. funny. but how the victim is dismissed. geeez, it is so not progressive

[redqueen]

96. Today I learned that Cathy Brennan is the leader of de eeebul dangerius radfems!

It's not true of course, but when have facts ever stopped a Fox News-caliber disinformation campaign?

[xulamaude]

97. I have nothing to say about Cathy Brennan except

that she speaks for herself... a lot.

[redqueen]

98. Have you seen that assertion before?

That she's some kind of leader?

Where do people get this stuff?

[xulamaude]

99. Yes I have seen that before

from her 'followers' and men.

[redqueen]

100. I wasn't aware that she had followers.

Among all the radical feminist groups and discussions I have, her name simply doesn't come up.

Funny that men are so fixated on her. But then I guess that propaganda isn't going to catapult itself.

[seabeyond]

101. meh... who? nt lol

[xulamaude]

107. Actually I should ammend my 'followers' statement

to say that it's mostly her and men.

[redqueen]

111. Today I learned that correcting a lie is the same thing as caring about the person used to smear

a movement.

Why some people think that caring about a movement, and objecting to people telling lies to demonize that movement, is the same thing as "defending" the people they erroneously call the "leader" of that movement in their effort to demonize it is... interesting.

That'd be like someone saying that someone who champions the destruction of private property is the leader of the environmental rights movement, and when an environmentalist corrects them, they claim the environmentalist is defending the person who champions the destruction of private property.

Fox News has nothing on these people.

I guess they're just not clear on the fact that while MRAs are actually a movement made up almost entirely of misogynist dirtbags, Radical Feminism is nowhere near the same, and despite their best efforts to smear everyone in the movement, they will just keep failing.



Another adorably stupid thing is how they pretend to be too stupid to notice that at the time they started posting unflattering pics of Andrea Dworkin, and started dishonestly labeling anyone who dared criticize objectification, porn, etc. as a "Dworkinite", hardly anyone here knew anything about her.

After their repeated smears aimed at her and Catharine MacKinnon, some of us learned about them, and realized just how low and dishonest their tactics were.

For instance, Dworkin and MacKinnon simply wanted to make it possible for women who could show before a court that they had been harmed by pornography, to he able to sue for damages. That's it.

Catharine MacKinnon is the woman who made sexual harassment in the workplace an actionable issue. Before her, women simply had to 'toughen up' and deal with the bullies themselves.

[seabeyond]

112. and dealing with the bullies ended up meaning being fired. so in essence, shut the fuck up. yes...

you are right. the cutsey little game to try and insult the women on du by putting up the unflattering picture of dworkin and then calling us women dworkinites. it got past no one. but a group sure liked to pretend innocence. a couple things. that would be the misogyny the same as slut shaming. shaming a woman per her looks, since we all know it is her worth and shaming a womans sexuality cause we know it belongs to man, and if man shames us, that will surely shut us up. that was an obvious. and yes, they still try to pull it. it is insulting, but not for the reason they think. it is because it is a disgustingly immature stunt, not to mention misogynist. and du allowed it to continue.

i am not sure i know what you mean about the first instance though.

oh, and ya, back to dworkin and mackinnon. the mens group deciding who us feminists are allowed to listen to, quote and respect. another little angle to this. checking out mackinnon, one fuckin' awesome and accomplished woman that kicked everyones ass on this board in accomplishment and success. and i dared to allow a handful of men tell me to put her in the back closet. wasnt that stupid of me.

[redqueen]

127. Just countering distortions and disinformation.

I took the comforting advice of many and have that group trashed, and most of its members on ignore. It makes DU seem like a much less toxic place.

However if (when) I find out there are lies and disinformation posted, I will no longer turn a blind eye to it.


That some of those men tried to dictate which feminists were acceptable for DU feminists and which ones weren't is yet another huge red flag, but it seems many are perfectly comfortable with such tactics.

Not only is Radical Feminism not dead, it's more growing in popularity. And the people pulling shitty stunts like that are only fueling the growth of the movement with their tactics.

[seabeyond]

128. yes. thank you for the clarification. i totally get that, agree and have seen it myself. nt

[xulamaude]

114. Ah, yes, Andrea 'The Hut' Dworkin...

The disinformation campaign against Dworkin (and others) has been in full swing for decades.

What's silly is that to anyone who has read Dworkin it is patently obvious that these fellows have not read a single bit of her feminist analysis work - or if they did they clearly didn't, or couldn't understand it - yet they continue to control the narrative.

Recently I dropped one her most famous lines about 'no shortage of kitchen knives' to see who might pick it up - it's the first hit with a google - and nobody picked it up...

All they know about Dworkin is what Larry Flynt (the champion of liberal free speech) said about her 35 years ago. And lord knows Mr. Flynt didn't have an "agenda"...

[seabeyond]

118. flynts own words, 3 yrs. these women have three years and his industry chews them up and spits them

out. in three years.

maybe that is where he got his meatgrinder idea. showing what he and the men do to these women.

[xulamaude]

119. And he should know, right?

I mean he's one of the men who chew them up and spit them out, makes huge money off of them and is laughing all the way to the bank.

Right from the horse's mouth but they don't hear that.

[seabeyond]

121. yes, he is the one in the know. and yes, his words. nt

[seabeyond]

122. oh, and this is also the man we hale as the hero of liberals and cheer him, when he sticks a dick in

a womans mouth to shut her up. but... only cause we do not like her.

and jury... this literally happened. had three threads and allowed to stand. if we can show the picture of it and the words in the article and cheer it, surely we can say it out loud.

and yes. vulgar. and crude. and men on du said appropriate and jury said ok.

[seabeyond]

120. This strong feminist voice was hardly a man-hater

Of all the lies told about feminists, one that always made me particularly angry and sad is the claim that Dworkin — and by extension, any woman with a similar critique of men's violence — hated men. Dworkin's prolific and powerful writings, particularly her critique of pornography, made her a target for some of the ugliest attacks leveled against any feminist over the past four decades, and the label man-hater was at the center of the campaign to marginalize her and her ideas.

how many times was i called a man hater yesterday. lmfao. thank you dworkin.

I am a man who has read all of Dworkin's books, and here is how it looks to me: I don't think she hated men. I think she loved us. I think Andrea Dworkin loved men because she loved people, and men are people — men are human beings — no matter how hard we sometimes seem to want to prove otherwise by our behavior.

"I don't believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we [women] are not just in armed combat against you? It's not because theres a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence."

Dworkin wanted to help men claim our humanity, not just for our sake but because she wanted to stop men's violence against women. She wanted an end to the harassment, rape, battery, child sexual assault. And she knew that required men to change, to save ourselves. In that same speech, she challenged men to take that responsibility:

"[Women] do not want to do the work of helping you to believe in your humanity. We cannot do it anymore. We have always tried. We have been repaid with systematic exploitation and systematic abuse. You are going to have to do this yourselves from now on and you know it."

evil woman that she is. and so fuckin right on. and having men and boys i love, exactly what i have been saying for years. ya. a dworkinite here.

thanks x for kicking my ass in to finding out what the quote meant.

edit to add. this was another favorite talking dworkin. jensen.

http://www.andreadworkin.net/memorial/jenson.html

[xulamaude]

123. A gift for HOF:

The complete works of Andrea Dworkin free for download:

http://radfem.org/dworkin/

[seabeyond]

125. how exciting. i am so downloading on my kindle. thank you. nt

[redqueen]

130. And doesn't it speak volumes that a misogynist like Flynt is a hero to them.

I wish someone would do an expose on flynt. It's sickening that that whitewashing movie hasn't been more widely challenged.

[ismnotwasm]

113. I learned that racism is possibly a thing of the past

Or there is nothing to be done about it other than listen to white people opinions.

Wasn't clear on which.

[xulamaude]

115. Hey! We're living in the post-racist age!!

Because, you know, we have a black (and white) president.

Yep, tell that to women of color and see what they have to say about racism being a thing of the past.

[ismnotwasm]

134. But people have FRIENDS of color

And are expressing frustration because they want to treat them just like white people!

No lie

The only opinion that counts is the white person who has friends that are not white. Apparently.

[xulamaude]

136. As the old saying/joke goes:

How mighty white of them.

LOL

[seabeyond]

124. i heard... NAACP.. "all help to keep the notion of "inequality" alive and well." so i said

"all help to keep the notion of "inequality" alive and well." because inequality is alive and well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4167644

[ismnotwasm]

141. Oh FFS

[gollygee]

116. Recognizing when someone is a victim or a group of people are victims

means you are "creating a culture of victimhood."

[xulamaude]

117. Nah, I'm pretty sure that it's the victimizers

creating THE culture.

[seabeyond]

126. and a 6 yr old must go in front of a camera and tell the word if she was good with the kiss or just

said no. otherwise she cannot be believed.

[redqueen]

139. I get that individual victims might not want to think of themselves that way.

But erasing the very idea of victimization, of victimhood... by extension, it erases the perpetrators.

There is such a thing as victimhood. It is not shameful to have something bad happen to you.

[seabeyond]

131. noonemans post. that he decided to self delete as i was replying.

NoOneMan
129. Feminists are allies to the left
View profile
Though I do think there are groups of unhappy and bitter people who hate life and hide behind the banner of feminism (and other groups) to attack people over petty issues as a distraction from their bitterness and loneliness.

so nooneman. this is not even kinda clever or creative or original. it is disrespectful and catty. we see you enough around du to be aware of how insulting and disrespectful you are to feminists on du. do not come into this group, and think you are clever enough to slip this garbage in here.

[ismnotwasm]

133. Haaay

I'm not bitter. I'm an activist! That means, like, I really go out there in public and join allies to fight injustice! Instead of making me bitter, it makes me joyous to find so many like minded persons!

Wow! Pretty cool huh?

[xulamaude]

138. Thanks for capturing that. Good grief... nt

[seabeyond]

140. ya. i learned today nooneman does not like us. lol.

[ismnotwasm]

142. LOL

Ya think?

[seabeyond]

143. ya know? lol....

[xulamaude]

132. Oops! Looks like NoOneMan got lost!

Luckily (!) I actually saw what he wrote in the 4 seconds it was there....

I like a joke as much as the next guy, but man, get some fresh material would ya?

[redqueen]

135. LOL no shit...

They're embarrassingly unashamed to recycle the same idiotic, anti-feminist talking points, over and over and over...

[xulamaude]

137. Somebody get that boy a GPS for xmas!! nt

[seabeyond]

144. i learned the mens group new meme for us is we are fucking emotionally DAMAGED..... this is

what they give us now. man hater is not enough. now they have to fuckin call us damaged. that is sick shit to shut people up cause their fcukin ego is not being stroked the way they want.

that... is .... sick.

[seabeyond]

145. arrogant, condescending fuckin bullshit. how many women hang with men that do that

condescending fuckin bullshit.

still having my rant on. this one pissed me off

[BainsBane]

146. That's at least a week or two old

I'm sure they have new ones by now.

[seabeyond]

149. i got it fuckin just now. and it wasnt me of course, that would be others in the thread. like

i was not the biggest mouth in that thread. it is always... not you BUT.... you women are pieces of shit. you know it is true. all of you are. oh, not you, but all others.

[gollygee]

147. LOL

that was my theory about them.

I'm the most emotionally normal person on the planet. I've had an easy life, I'm happily married - to a man! - and have been for a long time. I can't imagine anyone who knows me even wondering if I might be "emotionally damaged," whatever that actually means anyway.

[seabeyond]

151. well. that is a real duh. but when does reality matter when creating a caricature to shut you up

telling you are frigid, anti sex, jealous, isnt working. calling us ugly isnt shutting us up. the prude, hysterical, swoon couch didnt do it. so hey.... emotionally damaged. that is the ticket.

now

shut the fuck up

how dare we call a boy on stepping over the line and telling him, even if he is a boys will be boys, which i was told that is ok to, cause he is a boy and boy is not bad.... to learn boundaries.

cant be done

he is a BOY.... dontcha all know.

[ismnotwasm]

148. That's ok

Sick? Yes. But The day I give a shit about those particular opinions will be the day I will be turning my badass cred. Which will be never.

They can't help it. They're emotionally compromised, over or under mothered, over or under fathered and need their binkies and blankies.

[seabeyond]

152. ranting thru the house, trying to shut me up telling me i am emotionally damaged.... lol

i am calming down now. this one took a minute.

all the ranting thru the house.... they might just put me in a jacket. lol

[xulamaude]

150. The truth of the matter is that so many

of us have had damage inflicted upon us.

Does that mean that we must be defined by the damage that was inflicted upon us by others? We generally do not define ourselves this way.

But the same people who, by in large, inflict the damage are those who then throw 'damaged goods' back in our faces as an insult to our continuing to exist and speak out against the perpetrators' actions.

Reversal.

[seabeyond]

153. 'damaged goods'... thank you. THAT. THAT is what it feels like when i read it in the mens group

and when i was told right now. that is what it felt like was being said to me. that is where my anger is. yes. thank you.

[MadrasT]

154. ^^^ truth ^^^

And it has been a long time since anything a man said had the power to hurt me.

I simply. Don't. Care.

The only person whose opinion about me matters is MINE.

(OK well as long as I work for a living, my boss's counts some too, LOL. But only to the degree to which any criticism is constructive.)

[gollygee]

155. This is a very good point

if women have been damaged due to the patriarchy, those women are obviously going to speak, and the fact that they've suffered doesn't mean their voices are LESS needed, it means their voices are MORE needed.

[MadrasT]

156. ^^^ truth ^^^

[ismnotwasm]

157. I was raised by a misanthropist

When I was young, I thought he was simply a sexist. But I came to realize that he finds all human beings a threat and, thus despicable. I took off at 14, and although I physically returned, my mind was set free forever.

Now did I take damage from that kind of upbringing? Of the experiences of the street? From poverty? From hunger? You bet. A better question is do I sustain damage from that upbringing?

Fuck no. I learned right and wrong by watching a lot of wrong. I sustained knowledge. And came to terms with it. I have a sense of commonality with the human condition that was hard earned and can turn to snobbery in a heartbeat, because I have a difficult time suffering fools. Call it a character defect.

I'm content with who and what I am. A very proud feminist.

I would suggest to those throwing stones that sometimes we forget how much of ourselves we reveal on-line. A quick search of names and posts tell a story.

Now who really is damaged and bitter? Hint: it's not HoF members.

[seabeyond]

161. good post ism. i hear ya and if i suffered any damage, (i had the easy life) it si not messin with

me now. just lesson learned.

[redqueen]

159. THANK YOU

How absurd is it that they use it as a way to diminish women's voices. Fucking shameful.

[boston bean]

164. The truth of the matter is it is just fucking rude, mean, and a powerplay.

A way for others to justify their disgusting rude and hateful actions and words.

[seabeyond]

165. i dunno BB. if you think a person is "emotionally damaged" wouldnt you play nice? i would. nt

[redqueen]

158. This. This. This. Whether or not anyone is personally hurt or offended is beside the point.

IMO what you have said here, that is the point, and simply based on that, just that -- no one individual's feelings either way -- it is offensive on its face, and should be called out as such.

[xulamaude]

160. Uh oh! Looks like the post count is getting high enough

that maybe we need to start a WILT-O-DU Thread #2??

Who'd like to have the honor?

[seabeyond]

166. you. after we play out the emotional damage shit. cause you do it so well.... nt

[gollygee]

167. Here's a great thing to learn on DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4173905

[seabeyond]

168. ya. lets see if i get my seventh hide, lol. i may never get back on du. nt

[MadrasT]

170. Sweet Jesus REALLY DU???

A jury LET THAT STAND?

Fuck this.

Seriously.

Fuck. This. Noise.

[gollygee]

171. Nice, huh?

Yeah the jury system is AWESOME!!! /sarcasm

Race to the bottom, right here at DU.

[seabeyond]

172. alert. everyone alert. skinner will get them all and read what we have to say. misogyny and

homophobia, just the mere words get alerted on, or baines post that had facts in it about assange get alerted, it is hidden. this sexist garbage stands 3-3. alert. say want you want to skinner in your alert comment. i did.

[gollygee]

169. People who are on the receiving end of microaggressions are overly sensitive.

And I believe I will be getting my first hide. Ever!

[seabeyond]

173. never golly.... welll, they did hide a couple that were nothing. now, diss women, thumbs up.

gotta go in and check the thread i think it might be.