In honor of Seabeyond, Trumad, and Intaglio

[BainsBane]

Last edited Mon Jan 13, 2014, 02:54 PM - Edit history (2)

Voices that are being sorely missed.

[hrmjustin]

1. Absolutely!

[Squinch]

2. Missed very much! I hope they are well.

If you guys are reading.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Hear Hear!

Happily, it's a limited term and I look forward to their return.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

9. .

[redqueen]

5. Yep.

And I agree with ism - the people who are the angriest about the increasing numbers of loud, forthright radical feminists are only going to get angrier and more desperate as time goes on.

[BainsBane]

7. MARTIN NIEMÖLLER

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Squinch]

43. I think we are watching the last gasp of something that has

existed forever. This terror about the loss of unearned advantages will likely die out with my generation because the men of my generation were the last ones that were born to unearned advantages. (Unless the trans-vaginal-ultrasounders/quiverfullers/fundamentalists get their way).

Which means we may be watching an extinction happening as we speak.

[CTyankee]

61. I agree with this analysis. Last gasps are like what we are seeing here.

There are always these subtexts of fear in every misogynist posting.

[Squinch]

84. I see something in A LOT of them that I am pretty sure they are not realizing they communicate:

Often there will be some throw away comment in a diatribe, usually a diatribe with personal insults that is responding to a relatively benign statement I have made, where the writer says something to the effect of, "I am teaching you something, and you refuse to learn."

I am always struck by that, by the hubris of someone who is assuming the fault of the disagreement lies entirely in my not "learning" what he has to teach me, and the panicked fury the writers so obviously have that I am not eagerly waiting to appreciate their imparted wisdom.

It's really quite freaky.

[SunSeeker]

6. I've been out of it I guess. What happened?

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Probably some alert/jury fuckery.

Saw that coming with the 5-hides-you-can't-post rule introduction.

[BainsBane]

23. Indeed. Intaglio got four yesterday

Clearly they were relentless. Seems to be after the flag is up there is no reason to continue.

[Squinch]

26. He got FOUR yesterday? He must have said something perceptive to piss them off so much.

Last edited Sun Jan 12, 2014, 11:27 PM - Edit history (1)

[DonCoquixote]

32. if anybody gets four hides in ONE day

that alone might cause a bit of suspicion, as frankly that is the equivalent of getting a royal flush.

[Squinch]

34. I just rec'ed your wonderful OP. Going back now to kick it.

[Eleanors38]

121. Yeah, beats my 2 in one day in the Gungeon...

Must be the same tag-team.

[sheshe2]

13. They had more than 5 hidden posts, SunSeeker.

However they will be back.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

8. indeed...and i also agree with ismnotwasm's post

Which was hidden.

Oh how true that the provocateurs who enjoy playing games usually know how to be smooth enough to seem acceptable, reasonable. Often they use that "reasonable, logical" way of wording which fools many people.

But look a little deeper and it's clear that they switch topics, twist meanings, employ debunked arguments and ridiculous, unintellectual accusations--such as telling someone they're a prude or have no sense of humor.

When their interlocutors react angrily out of frustration, as the provocateur had hoped, it is then the perfect opportunity to alert.

That's how they work it.

[BainsBane]

10. often not

but their posts still are not hidden.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

14. exactly.

They fool many people.

It's like that "in real life" too. It's how repukes and other conscienceless people get along in life.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

44. DING* DING* DING*

Last edited Tue Jan 14, 2014, 02:29 PM - Edit history (1)

It's how repukes and other conscienceless people get along in life.

could it be .... Hello .... not all on here are what they appear to be ....

could it be ....

Cough* (Libertarian Trolls) Cough*

[Tuesday Afternoon]

90. Alerter almost lost their alerting privileges for 24 hours. Some excellent jury comments, thanks

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Stating that DUers are "Libertarian Trolls".

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Jan 13, 2014, 02:32 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No one is called out specifically, so I'm voting to leave it. Slightly meta, but hey, what post isn't?
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think it is well proven that some posters on DU are libertarian trolls - MIRT works around the clock to get those 'name removed' messages everywhere. The OP isn't naming any names, but some posters that engaged heavily with the HoF crowd have been removed as trolls, so the assumption that some posters are trolls just out to stir things up is a natural one.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "not all on here are what they appear to be" translates to "DUers are 'Libertarian Trolls'"? No it doesn't. Noting that there are trolls on this board is acknowledging what many already know. omc was here for 6 years. lo zoccolo was here for many years. dkf was another long term troll. Hell, I remember seventhson and carlos, too. There are others but "DU rules" don't allow us to name those trolls as trolls until they get banned for being trolls; leaving behind whatever "making DU suck damage" they can inflict. Selecting an out of context quote and spinning it into a different meaning is an ugly tactic.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[redqueen]

93. Some astute jurors there.

some posters that engaged heavily with the HoF crowd have been removed as trolls, so the assumption that some posters are trolls just out to stir things up is a natural one.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

95. indeed, redqueen. indeed.

to those astute and discerning Jurors

[KitSileya]

101. Why thank you very much, RQ.

Where's that blushing smiley when you need it.

(Juror #3 was me, in other words.)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

113. thanks for sending me the results ...

<---- found it

[BlancheSplanchnik]

98. didn't know that had been alerted....

Good to see jurors who have the power of discernment.

(I always sign my name to my juror comments. Makes me remember to think before I speak.)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

114. It amazes me what people alert on around here. When I see a post like that has been alerted on

I wonder what else of mine is alerted. Who alerted. Who were my jurors. meh.

Then I put it back in perspective, realize this is a message board on the internet and Move On.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

115. LOL!!!!

it's true!


still…it drives me nuts when someone is wrong on the innertoobz!!!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

12. Yep.

The born-smug.

[redqueen]

17. Someone posted a list of MRA debate tactics, which give excellent examples of this.

I think it was ism but I'm not sure. But yeah, we see them used all the fucking time around here in discussions of feminist issues.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

20. huh! I would love to see that post!

I wrote a reply to a thread that I want to put up as an OP.

I'd just rather wait until a better time.

It (the OP I want to do) is just my thoughts and attempt to bridge the communication gap that I think keeps drowning out the points women are trying to make.

Add in the hostile aggressive few who show up and arent interested in good faith discussion, and we lose allies--because our analyses and experiences of sexism get stuck in the emotional whirlpool that trolls like to create.

[redqueen]

22. Found it!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125532659

Gave it a kick, too

[BlancheSplanchnik]

56. thanks redqueen.

Goooood article!

Lotta similarities to lists of typical behaviors of alcoholics, sociopaths, narcissists, borderline personalities.

[redqueen]

94. It's another example of why I love tumblr.

So many outspoken feminists sharing so much good stuff.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

99. i may need to acquaint myself with this tumbler you speak of.

Like i need another addictive distraction!

[redqueen]

102. Well if you do, be forewarned, the feminism and related tags are trolled HARD.

It's tumblr etiquette to not tag hate, but, well, obviously anti-feminists live to hate, so...

[Sheldon Cooper]

104. I really like Tumblr, too.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

108. thanks!

[SunSeeker]

18. So true. You nailed it. nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

21. we need to train ourselves to reply to the game,

Instead of trying to ,explain and re-explain Sexism.

Address yourself to the disingenuous games the person uses. Call them on it in your most reasonable, logical voice and you will feel a LOT better.


Oh yeah...and let me add...if you see,that you can NOT have productive discussion, walk away.
(Remind me of this before I forget my own advice in real life, regarding the love-life track record! Ha! Urk.)

[SunSeeker]

40. Yes, but it's so hard to ignore that sexist bullshit, especially when you see it here.

You're right though, arguing with those type of posters is not a productive use of time. It's best to state whatever facts address their claim and move on. Resist the urge to call the poster what they are. It will be seen as a personal attack; and truth is not a defense.

[Squinch]

41. I have most on ignore (so I can't see the conversations where intaglio got ignored.)

I got tired of watching the children sticking out their tongues and shouting "nyah, nyah" using cartoon visual aids.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

47. oh i dont *necessarily* mean avoid arguing with them....

Just dont yry to argue about sexism with them because they're in "attack the chick" mode. And "poor me I'm a guy we got it ruffffff...my ex-wife screwed me over"....

That kind is never going to look at themselves and ponder.....
No, they just use dysfunctional arguing methods. So address that and only that. Theyll continue to be schmucks, but they'll be rattled. And you'll feel better.

At least that's how it works for me.

[abq e streeter]

15. Please forgive my not being up on things, but what happened?

Although some of the other replies above give a general idea.

[sheshe2]

16. Thanks BainsBane.

Their voices are indeed missed~

[hrmjustin]

24. I agree.

[niyad]

19. yes, they are definitely missed. hope to see them soon.

[BainsBane]

30. Why would you feel compelled to come in here to say that?

[DonCoquixote]

28. pardon me for being clueless but

WTF happened to seabeyond?

[BainsBane]

29. Both have more than five hides

and have their posting privileges suspended until their transparency pages are no longer displayed.

[el_bryanto]

31. I'm afraid I don't know Ingatlio - but I'm hoping Seabeyond makes it back

I always found her to be a very sharp voice and well worth reading, even if I disagreed with her.

Bryant

[BainsBane]

33. Heads up everyone

very supportive post in GD
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024321929

[CTyankee]

77. thank you for the heads up. It's wonderful.

[BainsBane]

36. They are on his transparency page

Turns out it's five now. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=193650&sub=trans
They were hidden today but written yesterday.

In case you're interested: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4320363

I deleted my other posts on Hrmjustin's advice because he thought they would be hunting for additional hides to get be flagged and banned.

[Squinch]

38. Oh, right. It's late. I wasn't thinking. I'll self delete that. Thanks.

[petronius]

37. You can get to them all from intaglio's profile page:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=193650&sub=trans

[Squinch]

39. Thank you. As I said to BainsBane, I wasn't thinking. I forgot the transparency page!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. du rec

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. I would add trumad ... but, maybe ... that's just me.

[Squinch]

46. I'm with you on that!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

48. trumads journey is a testimony to how well DU can work.

we all witnessed his travel toward enlightenment. It was a beautiful thing to behold.

[Squinch]

83. I don't think I knew him before, but I have liked many of his recent posts.

[BainsBane]

49. good idea!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

51. Looking good, now Baines!!

[hrmjustin]

53. Agreed!

[kestrel91316]

50. What happened to trumad??

[BainsBane]

52. Same thing

off the site due to five hides.

[UtahLib]

54. K&R

I have learned to follow my intuition concerning what I term to be worthless bullshit OPs. Although it's sometimes maddening and difficult to ignore, the predictability of who and what you will encounter is enough to, for me at least, send it to the trash bin, where it belongs.

I followed Intaglio's hidden posts and was sorry but not surprised to see him targeted in a disgusting and childish display of taunting and gang bullying. I don't understand why such tactics are acceptable and even applauded by some on DU and, at times, rewarded by questionable jury decisions.

[BainsBane]

55. I'd like to see a modification to the alert procedures

So that after a person is flagged, no more alerts can be made until the flag is lifted. Tracking someone down to hide 5 posts in one day is too much, particularly considering all the attacks that don't get hidden based not on content but because jurors don't like the person being attacked or who they think might have been the alerter.

[UtahLib]

57. I agree that DU would benefit by a major overhaul

of the jury system. It probably presents quite a quandary for Admin. I'm not sure certain injustices would be addressed by tweaking the jury system until vengeful alerters and jury members are held accountable. Allowing a personal grudge or animosity to color ones' judgement makes for a dysfunctional process.

[BainsBane]

58. Many make clear that they judge based on who they like

rather than the content of the post. Skinner has said that if enough jurors don't like a poster to get something hidden, it's the member's own fault.

[UtahLib]

59. Wow

That could be construed as a clear indication that the jury system is not working properly, as in being fair and just. If it has been deemed acceptable for a person to allow his/her biases to rule when serving on a jury, no change to the system can possibly rectify the problem.

[BainsBane]

60. It's clear in the comments

and also what people say in threads.

[Nye Bevan]

64. Are you familiar with the Jury Blacklist?

If you feel someone has a grudge against you, you can add them to your jury blacklist so that they will never serve on a jury for one of your posts. You can do this for up to 15 DUers.

[UtahLib]

96. I am familiar with the blacklist option.

I was not implying that anyone is harboring a grudge against me. I don't believe I have posted enough to even be noticed.

I do believe there is ample evidence of posters who have taken it upon themselves to seek out other posters, toward whom they have developed an obvious animosity, in order to exact retribution. Until those issues are addressed, the alert function and jury system, which should be fair and impartial, are subject to abuse..

[Nye Bevan]

97. But any "obvious animosity" can be addressed by using the jury blacklist (nt)

[UtahLib]

100. I don't think the jury blacklist is the end all solution.

Until every poster is held to the same standards and each post is judged without bias and with no consideration given to personal feelings about the poster, people will continue to abuse the system to exact retribution rather than justice.

[seaglass]

103. That's exactly it. And until then the jury system is a fail. n/t

[UtahLib]

105. Maybe it's a fail because

more exacting rules were needed for success of a system which some will abuse when acting more in their own interest than any actual concern for seeing justice served.

With a pattern having been established and so many differing personalities and conflicting views involved, I have no idea if even a major overhaul would resolve the abuse issue.

[seaglass]

106. I don't see it as being fixable. It is seen as unfair and when people feel they have been

treated unfairly or see others being treated unfairly they don't have the same investment in being fair towards others. I think that is where we are now.

[UtahLib]

107. I agree, being concerned with fairness may not be the ruling concern for some people. n/t

[Vashta Nerada]

111. What abuse?

All of the people on a forced vacation deserve what they got. Nobody forced those people to break the rules and go against community standards.

Instead of blaming this all on some sort of conspiracy, how about looking at the posts that were hidden and realizing that those who are gone deserve to be gone.

[JTFrog]

116. Meh.

Thanks for stopping by.

"those who are gone deserve to be gone."

You've stated your opinion (even tho no one in this group is going to agree with you), however, you should refrain from attacking members of this group here in this group.

[Vashta Nerada]

117. Attack?

How is stating the truth "an attack"? Did you see all the hidden posts from the people who are on forced vacation? The posts weren't hidden because of a grand conspiracy. The posts were hidden because they called people names or went against community standards. Nobody forced those who are gone to act like they way they did.

[JTFrog]

118. This isn't the place for your little rant.

You should take it to an unprotected group. After all, you are getting close to the limit yourself.

Thanks.

[X_Digger]

120. Jury Results:

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Continuing attacks on group members within the safe haven group is bad community standards.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jan 15, 2014, 12:21 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This particular post doesn't mention any member by name. The host of the group has the power to block this member.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: FFS!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's poor form to take swings at people who can't swing back, especially in a safe haven group. But this is probably something that the Hosts of HOF should be taking care of. I now have a very low opinion of the poster for doing this, though. It really sucks.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is a group, not a forum, and has different rules.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh for fucks sake. This alerter deserves their own time out.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Noting whatsoever wrong with this post.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


To the anonymous alerter- Please learn what the role of hosts and juries are.

[seaglass]

119. No one in this subthread said anything about a conspiracy. Perhaps you are directing your

comments to the wrong people.

I'm always surprised by people who think the jury system treats DUers equally - it does not. That's not a conspiracy, it's a fact.

[CTyankee]

62. when can Seabeyond come back to post?

[Nye Bevan]

63. Feb 5 (nt)

[HERVEPA]

65. Not everyone misses the anger and nastiness aof at elast two of these folks.

[BainsBane]

66. And you felt compelled to enter this safe haven

for no other reason than to make clear how much you dislike them.

[HERVEPA]

67. And how is a discussion declared a safe haven?

[Scout]

69. the GROUP is a safe haven, not this particular discussion thread.

[HERVEPA]

72. Sorry, came in from Ask the Admin and didn't realize the group. My apologies.

[BainsBane]

75. Do you know which ATA post he is referring to?

I'm thinking I must have the OP on ignore. Could you provide the link?

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. here, I suspect

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594641

[Scout]

79. sorry, i don't. n/t

[BainsBane]

70. When it is in a protected group

Are you telling me you don't know how this site works? Do you regularly go into protected groups without reading the SOP?
For some, it would be enough that the people they despise are gone. But that's not enough. You feel a need to grave dance, not just all over GD like others, but to come to their safe haven group to do it. But hey, the "angry" and "nasty" people have been dispatched.

[LanternWaste]

73. I imagine that pointing out obvious realities may often be seen as anger...

I imagine that pointing out obvious realities may often be seen as anger by the very same who may (for their own reasons) refuse to see the obvious reality.

[HERVEPA]

74. Well, you really know little of my beliefs on feminism, do you?

As an example, I have been a volunteer escort at Planned Parenthood for twenty years, which sort of puts my life and health on the line for a pretty important feminist issue.

[BainsBane]

80. Yes, everyone keeps telling us

How they work for abortion rights. But then you come alone and tell me something is wrong with posting a poll about sexist slurs. While others tell me to keep my mouth shut about rape and violence against women because it makes some men feel bad, for what reason I can'b be sure, though I have my theories. Abortion rights are not the sum total of women's rights. Men have their own reasons for supporting abortion. Unfortunately, many of those same men don't seem to think women have the right to speak about issues that concern us. One came in here to tell us to keep our posts limited to the ERA. When men think they have a right to tell me what to care and post about, I do not see that as support for feminism and certainly not for my rights as an individual human being.

[HERVEPA]

81. That post/poll in my opinion was ground that had been covered many times.

If, however, that post was in the feminism group and I didn't notice that, I apologize.
I will be careful to check that in the future.
If it was in GD, however, I stand by my right to express that opinion.

[BainsBane]

85. So where exactly is the committee to whom I am supposed to submit

requests about what I am allowed to post about? Fat insults are okay to talk about, but sexist insults must never be questioned. Rape and domestic violence are off the table. I have to wonder how you think it's your right to tell people what they can post about? I see all kinds of stuff in GD that's been covered thousands of times, but I have never felt entitled to tell people to shut the because I'm not interested. I simply skip over the threads. I wasn't interested in 250 posts about Duck Dynasty, so I didn't read them more than a couple of them. I guess it never occurred to me that I could be arbiter of what others were allowed to care about.

If I were telling African Americans to keep quiet about issues of racism, I wouldn't then turn around and pretend to be an ally. If I were telling LGBT Americans that I was sick of hearing about homophobia, I wouldn't then pretend to be a supporter. I have always had the bizarre impression that so-called liberals value diversity. Fortunately, I have people like you to remind me that what I care about is not only irrelevant, it is flamebait. Thank goodness I have the good people of DU to point out how worthless my concerns are, or I might actually think I was a human being with equal rights. I keep forgetting the only thing that matters about me is my reproductive organs.

[LanternWaste]

82. I merely contrasted six of one and half a dozen of the other

I merely contrasted six of one and half a dozen of the other.

"Well, you really know little of my beliefs on feminism, do you?"

Correct. I certainly know very little to nothing of you or what you allege to have done; merely those you impugned. But by all means, shoot them down while the opportunity presents itself.

[cinnabonbon]

68. I miss them too.

How long do they have to stay away?

[BainsBane]

71. Three months for intaglio

Sea should be able to come back in Feb.

[cinnabonbon]

76. Way too long

at least in the cases were the hides comes from them reacting to a string of microaggressions. I mean, the microaggressions never get hides for some reason.

Let's make sure they come back to a lively and active group so they can jump right in.

[hack89]

86. What is a microaggression? nt

[nomorenomore08]

87. Something deliberately offensive or mean-spirited which toes the line just enough to not be noticed

by people other than the target. Or that's one definition anyway.

[hack89]

88. Sounds like a typical DU thread

Civility has has gone done the tubes here over the last couple of years.

[nomorenomore08]

89. No argument from me. And it's sad, when most of us probably agree on 90% of the basics. n/t

[cinnabonbon]

91. I like this website's explanation:

although it focuses on the race side of it.

Simply stated, microaggressions are brief exchanges that send denigrating messages to marginalized groups. Any group can be guilty of delivering microaggressions, but the most painful and harmful ones are likely to occur between those who hold power and those who are disempowered. Often times, microaggressions are unintended or come from a place from good intentions. For instance, a professor who says to a student who speaks with a foreign accent "I'm impressed you speak English so well" is guilty of a microaggression because although the professor means that statement as a compliment, the statement assumes that people with accents do not normally speak English well. A further example would be a female physician who is wearing a stethoscope being mistaken as a nurse, with the underlying assumption being that women in hospitals are more likely to be nurses.

http://www.fordham.edu/academics/office_of_research/research_centers__in/center_for_teaching_/the_art_of_teaching/microaggressions_89343.asp

[Tuesday Afternoon]

110. this part is especially noted in regards to DU3 =

... but the most painful and harmful ones are likely to occur between those who hold power and those who are disempowered.

Thank you for the post and the link.

[cinnabonbon]

112. Definitely that part!

I'm just glad we as a group is interested in this stuff, Tuesday.

[JustAnotherGen]

92. I can't wait

For their return. Missing them!

[yuiyoshida]

109. yes

[JI7]

122. i hope they come back