Can there ever be enough evidence for people to believe a rape victim?

[BainsBane]

Whether child or adult? Or does it not matter how much evidence there is, people will insist the perpetrator is not guilty regardless? Is rape culture really so intractable?

The definitive thread on the Allen-Dylan Farrow case is by Roguevalley. It links to the court ruling in Woody Allen custody case. If you click through from the HuffPo article to the document itself, you will learn as much as you can without having been in the attic that day.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024461709


I want so badly for the despair I express above to be wrong. I hope people who have defended Allen read that court ruling and think carefully about so easily dismissing a victim's word about assault.

[elleng]

1. Not if they don't want to believe.

[lostincalifornia]

2. The vast majority of cases of rape are real /nt

[BainsBane]

3. Yet why every time a case arises

Do so many people assume the accused is innocent and the victim not being truthful? Why is the default position to disbelieve the victim?

Legally, everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but no other victims are disbelieved like those of sexual assault. The vociferous defense of Allen passed on info released by his publicity machine has been full throated on DU. Only the court record shows virtually all of it is unfounded or outright false. Woody Allen is not a legally convicted child abuser and is innocent under the law, but very little else people have been saying is true. They assumed he was innocent. They assumed Dylan really didn't know what happened to her. Those kinds of assumptions about sexual assault victims and accused perpetrators must change if we are to do anything to stop a rape culture that leads to 25% of the population being sexually assaulted and only 3 percent of rapes resulting in conviction and jail time.

[reusrename]

4. Sex is, and always has been, a somewhat dangerous pastime.

A lot of problems are created when allegations of a sex crime are used for political purposes, such as in the Lewinsky case or the Assange case. This is the behavior that is the most despicable, imho. Yet some folks just don't want to see how this kind of activity affects the victims.

Just so there is no confusion about what I just said, I didn't make any claim at all about whether or not Monica herself or Assange's partners are victims. But I do assert that, victims or not, their experiences have been used for political purposes.

This stuff is how you get into folk's monkey hind-brain. We're wired for it. Propagandists know we are.

[BainsBane]

5. It is a serious mistake to conflate sex and rape

Lewinsky never said her relationship with Clinton was non-consensual. Dylan says Woody Allen assaulted her. Two women testified that Julian Assange assaulted them. The situations should not be compared. Rape and child sexual abuse are not sex; they are acts of violence.

There is nothing biological about rape culture. It's learned behavior in which too many imagine women assuming women are lying or incapable of knowing what happened to them. It's entirely the result of the influence of misogyny in our culture.

[reusrename]

6. Yes, it's a very serious mistake.

It's also a very serious mistake to create a false dichotomy.

The legality of the conduct may be black or white, sure, it's either legal or it's not. Simple. But once you move past the codified law written in the law books and into real human interactions it can get very complicated very quickly.

Not only can the participants honestly disagree about each other's conduct, but there are usually many other important issues besides just the legal one, which may not be the most important issue at all. (For example, if it's legal to screw your ward, does that make it OK? Of course not.)

But getting back to your original question, I think most people try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. This applies to both the rapist and the victim.

[BainsBane]

7. Hold on

In a case where there is no accusation of rape, there is no reason to lump it together with cases in which a complainant reports an assault. That is a clear distinction.

Secondly. Rape is a matter of law. Certainly pedophiles commonly think there is nothing wrong with what they do. That is the nature of their sickness. That doesn't make it so. It is black and white. Raping a child is a horrendous crime. Touching a child sexually is a crime. Fondling a child is a crime. Period. One is either a pedophile or not a pedophile. One rapes minors or one does not have sex with minors.

Rape of a adult is also a crime. Whether a man believes he was entitled to compel a woman to have sex is irrelevant. Whether he thinks she owes him sex because he bought her dinner, or finds her drunk to the point of incoherence and thinks he can "score" doesn't matter. What matters is whether both parties consent. That's it. Nothing else.

This shit about not being black and white is wrong. There is nothing complicated about knowing if a woman wants to have sex. She tells you so. If she doesn't say yes, no sex. Period. It's not rocket science. Yes means yes. No means no. Silence does not equal consent. Silence means no. Period.

Whether the predator "disagrees honestly" is entirely irrelevant. He committed a crime and should be punished. You are going to have your ass handed to you in the morning. You picked the wrong place to make that argument. Did you pay attention to where you are posting?

What you described in your post is a clear demonstration of why sexual assault goes unpunished. They give the "benefit of the doubt" to the accused and treat the victim as inferior, as though she is unworthy, as though her word means nothing. That is rape culture itself. That bullshit about "honestly disagreeing" is horrifying. You seriously need to rethink that.

[reusrename]

8. I agree with most of what you said, so I'll just address where we disagree.

You are arguing that as long as it's legal, anything goes!

That isn't how I view my sexual conduct with others. To me, there's a lot more to it than that. A whole lot more.

It's "legal" to buy prostitutes in some jurisdictions. You argue that's good behavior and I don't.

If you and I can disagree about such a simple thing, without even having a physical encounter, then it makes me wonder how you can be so sure that we would totally agree if we were to have a physical relationship with each other.

Now, about comparing the Lewinsky case with the Assange case, be very careful of the accusations that you're hurling around. I intentionally used those cases because I see the exact same contrast between them that you are making. That should be absolutely clear from any honest reading of my post, especially since I made a specific disclaimer to that effect right there in the original post. Go back and look.

The cases have one point in common. That is the point I raised. They are both cases where accusations of sexual misconduct are used for political purposes. Perhaps you're not concerned about it. Perhaps you don't give a shit about how that kind of thing has a detrimental effect on all victims, in general, I don't know. But don't keep trying to twist what I said into some other thing that I specifically denied saying. It's dishonest.

[BainsBane]

23. A moral issue of what is appropriate

is separate from a violent assault. I never claimed "anything goes." It is not the subject of this thread. This is about acts of violence on other human beings.

[redqueen]

11. Are you saying rape victims are often disbelieved because *rarely*, rape cases are used

as political footballs?

That makes absolutely no sense at all, and your vague, weaselly wording is suspicious as hell.

If you have a point to make, make it clearly.

[BainsBane]

25. Indeed.

[reusrename]

28. Yes. That's exactly the point I am making.

When it's a he-said, she-said situation I think folks fairly want to believe both people. They naturally look for motives in order to try and suss out the truth.

The public's awareness of these high-profile cases where there are clearly lies being told, and in which the motives to lie are obvious, I think this is one of the things that puts victims at a real disadvantage when it comes to being believed.

If it doesn't make sense to you, fine. What part doesn't make sense? What part is vague?

[lostincalifornia]

10. My point was simply that the vast majority of people wo are raped or report rape are valid. What

You are referring to is why it appear that many do not believe the victim, which in most cases occurs to women. I think this is due to the historical prejudice against wiomen. History is loaded with it, and it is passed down unfortunately from generation to generation

I assume you are referring to the Allen/Farrow case which seems to be on quite a few threads in DU.

I would not take the views on those threads as representative of the consensus of DU. In fact I believe the vast majority on DU believe that Allen's actions did involve molestation and worse

[BainsBane]

24. I hope you're right about the majority of DU

and the rest of your points are well-taken. I agree.

[Squinch]

9. That judge seems like a gem. He read between the lines, and made provisions to

keep her safe in the future, and he did it based on an astute reading of the evidence that was available. That is a rare thing.

But the problem, of course, is that it often does boil down to "he said, she said," and pedophiles know this full well and exploit it. The justice system has no way to redress that intrinsic problem with sexual assault cases.

In terms of evidence and the law, we have what we have. It will always favor the pedophile, because evidence is hard to come by. And in this case, Allen seems to have thrown all of his money and influence into smearing Farrow and muddling Dylan's story. Much of his behavior, in my opinion, points to guilt: his behavior to her before the incident was creepy. Then, too, you don't further traumatize your beloved child if you really love her in this situation. You don't feed her trauma to the tabloid sharks, even if it is to clear your own name. You don't try to rip apart the support system that she does have while she is going through the trauma. In short, I believe that if he were innocent, and if he actually loved his child, he would have been concerned with her rather than himself while it was unfolding. Even if he believed in his innocence, if he loved his child, he would have worked toward her well being, rather than her further trauma.

But though these things point to a man who is willing to use his child in terrible ways, it still doesn't constitute proof. To say that we don't know what happened is still technically accurate.

The rape culture is built into the judicial system that way, and especially for those victims who cannot represent themselves, like children. I can't think of a way to change that.

But I am frankly terrified for those two children he is raising with Soon-Yi.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. "But I am frankly terrified for those two children he is raising with Soon-Yi."

shades of

Hedda Nussbaum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedda_Nussbaum

and

Wanda Ileen Barzee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanda_Ileen_Barzee#Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping

*shudder*

[zazen]

26. well-said n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

12. Face It, Baines - Some people love to wallow in it.

Happy as pigs in shit.

Some people love to argue (with you) just for the sake of arguing (with you).

Some people just love to hear (read) the sound of the own voice.

Some people are in love with themselves therefore can do no wrong. They are a legend in their own mind.

Some people do not know how to apologize.

[BainsBane]

13. And some will always believe a man over a girl or woman

especially a rich, powerful man.

True about some loving to disagree with me, or snipe and me and take the other side. I was speculating with Sea that if she and I took an opposite position to what we actually believe, a few would line up on the other side for no other reason than it is us.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. There are a few on here that, yes ... if you or sea said "water is wet" they

would provide links proving that it isn't.

[BainsBane]

16. Typically there are no links

There will be this:

"Predictable"
"Obsessed much"
Applause for whoever attacks me, even when they don't engage with the facts at issue or my argument
as well as a bunch of snarky remarks and jpgs


Links would require giving thought to the subject matter and having actual evidence.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. yes, the peanut gallery. Those few that do provide links, I have more respect for them.

The actual evidence contained therein may be questionable or negligible but, possibly thought provoking.

[BainsBane]

18. If someone is on topic, cool

I may disagree. I my disagree vehemently, but they want to discuss the subject matter which is what the board is for. What I hate is people that who enter threads simply to go after individuals they don't like. It's a waste of everyone's energy, petty, and juvenile.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. This =

What I hate is people that who enter threads simply to go after individuals they don't like. It's a waste of everyone's energy, petty, and juvenile.

is what I refer to as The Peanut Gallery.

rabble.

personality over content.

[Sheldon Cooper]

20. If Dylan Farrow was a boy instead of a girl, do you think the accusations would

be taken more seriously? I wonder.

[BainsBane]

21. Yes

[seabeyond]

22. if the molester was a woman instead of a man..... lol, nt

[Agschmid]

27. No.

[laundry_queen]

32. Yes.

I think so, but with a caveat. It seems that no matter what, sexual abuse within a family is so often ignored. If Woody Allen was a teacher or coach instead of a father, I also think the accusations would be taken more seriously. People just don't seem to take sexual abuse within a family unit as seriously as 'stranger' sexual abuse, which is really awful for the victims because the child must rely on the family for survival.

[gaspee]

29. Obviously not

I might have to step away from DU for awhile. I find myself getting pissed off too much. I like to keep up with the news at DU, using it as an aggregation tool without having to see the fucked up comments of right wing trolls that are found on pretty much every news story reported on mainstream sites.

I know what they think and I don't need to see it.

I feel like, when it comes to women's issues, DU is just as bad as mainstream sites. I would have though DU a refuge from that trash, not a purveyor of it.

[Squinch]

31. Some of them are just women-hating trolls. They don't bother me as much as the ones

who think they are very progressive, and are completely unaware that the things they are saying show a horrible attitude towards women.

[gollygee]

30. Rape is almost legal

It takes a whole lot to lead to a conviction.