So what started this latest round of sex-industry defending threads? (HOF THREAD)

[redqueen]

Anyone know? I know I was sucked into the discussions via a pro-industry OP.

IMO you're either pro-industry or pro-human rights. You can't be both.

Anyway. I was wondering because it seems like there's a growing sense of desperation in these pro-industry threads. The wild, logic-free analogies. The glaring straw man arguments. The shameless mischaracterization of other people's statements and positions.

As I said elsewhere: The flailing desperation in their dozens of threads is palpable.

It's as if the fact that the most progressive, gender egalitarian countries are slowly dissolving the imbalance which has fueled the sex industry for so long is viewed as a threat to something they feel entitled to... or something.

I mean, combine that fact with the fact that more and more women are embracing feminism at younger and younger ages - and not the fun kind, but the seriously critical kind - it must seem like a very threatening thing, to some.

[MadrasT]

1. I can't even answer this without over-the-top snark.

I tried three times... and failed.

[redqueen]

2. LOL, PM me?

[gollygee]

3. Very frustrating

You can't just separate a tiny percentage of it and say most of it is irrelevant, and expect to be taken seriously. "I'm not talking about 95% of it! 5% is fine! Stop bring up the 95%!"

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. yes, the Five Percent ... thank you.

[redqueen]

7. Yeah, all they want to talk about are those two edible slices of pizza

and just pretend the rest doesn't matter.

I mean there are food safety laws, so whatever.

That they find it so incredibly easy to simply just not think about what those slices covered in dog shit and broken glass represent... words fail.


For anyone who didn't get the reference:

I'm pretty tired of any feminist critique of porn, in order for it to be seen as valid, the author is expected to like pornography and heartily endorse it in a disclaimer. The happy, fun, consent-filled, queer and woman-friendly stuff we see on the internet is a rarity compared to the hateful (not a strong enough word) disgusting and degrading reality that is the whole picture. Say you have a pizza, and 14 out of 16 slices are covered in broken glass and dog shit, but two slices are cheesy and perfectly delicious. If I'm reviewing it, should I have to make some statement about how great those pieces fit for human consumption were? Should I support Pope Benedicto's Dog Shit N Broken Glass Pizza Parlour because they manage to make two edible slices of pizza per pie? It not only distorts the reality of the situation, but also seriously diminishes the pain and suffering of the vast majority of human beings who've actually been through it (eaten pizza/been involved in the pornography industry.)

[MadrasT]

8. HOW DARE YOU SHAME THE TWO PERFECT SLICES OF PIZZA!!!!

The audacity!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

12. Off Topic

but, redqueen do you remember a DUer from years past that had a sigline regarding pizza/sex analogy.

[redqueen]

17. No but I'm curious now...

so if you remember please let me know

[Tuesday Afternoon]

23. I think she went by a username

newwavechick1981 (something like that) and her sigline was a quote she found on a bathroom wall (iirc)

something to the effect that

sex was like pizza even the bad was still pretty good ...

meh.

something like that.



Ringing any bells?

[redqueen]

24. Nah but that saying is so common I wouldn't be surprised if a few people had it.

It's also a damned lie - at least for women - but the world doesn't revolve around us.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

25. indeed, the word turns regardless of humans of any gender/sex. -

thanks though for walking down memory lane with me

[BainsBane]

50. That kind of saying is usually attributed to men.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

52. you had to be here, Baines.

it was a different DU.

different times.

she was -out there- even more so.

I remember her because she worked at a college about three hours east of me.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. Reading Comprehension Fail is to blame for some of this, I think.

I hope.

For Human Kind, I hope.

That a fully Adult Man/Woman of *Sound Mind* Chooses a Career in The Sex Industry instead of pursuing other avenues of Gainful Employment is Not What Is Being Discussed.

If it is, please let me know because I am totally misunderstanding. and I am the one with the Fail Pie all in my Face.

[KitSileya]

9. I think the miniscule number of men and women who work as high end escorts

through agencies or on their own - whose clients are vetted, who can freely say no to a client without going hungry or getting beaten, who can get violent clients blacklisted - they may have freely chosen their career.

The vast majority are women and men without this security and who are forced, either by their pimps or by money needs, to see 8-10 johns a day, without any safety measure except instinct and perhaps some fellow street walkers. I am willing to bet that most of them want to get out of it, if they could see a way out, or if they thought they themselves were worth the effort. I think many do not see any alternative - some are addicts, some are school drop-outs, some have had their self esteem destroyed by abusive families and their abuser pimps - they are wise enough to see that getting out of prostitution is hard work, and that you need something of a break as well.

Harriet Tubman said that she could have freed thousands more if they had known they were slaves. I think with many prostitutes, many would get out of the business if they knew they were worth it.

Edited to add: And it isn't just many prostitutes that that don't value themselves as much as they are worth - too many workers in the US don't value themselves and their labor highly enough, so they continue to vote republican. I believe it's the same mental mechanism, and it is based on the same cultural exploit - that they should be happy to have work, and if they can't manage on what they earn/can't get a regular job, it's their own fault.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. agree.

thank you ... I take this as confirmation that my reading comprehension skills are not the problem, then.

[redqueen]

18. Well that's all the pro-industry types want to discuss, yes.

Discussing anything else makes it clear that yes, there is a metric fuck-ton of stuff wrong with these industries. And some people are really, REALLY invested in not thinking about that fact.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. and they continue to derail and obfuscate to further their fully vested interest in pursuit of

their own hedonism. Even if it is AT the expense of another human being's dignity(at the very least) or even life and limb(at the very most).

If two Hedonists/Fetishists/BDSM seek out each other = THAT IS SO ***NOT*** the issue here.

[jeff47]

6. It was on the schedule

You should see what's coming in September.

[redqueen]

13. Your little 'joke' implies that it's anti-feminist trolling.

And considering the over the top title of one, that there is "nothing wrong" with the industries that not only are based on objectification, but also result in ACTUAL SLAVERY...you might be right. In that case I hope the admins take that into consideration.

[jeff47]

28. Nope. My little joke implies that DU gets onto this topic regularly.

But thanks for assuming I'm an awful person!

[redqueen]

29. It doesn't just get onto it by happenstance. Someone has to start it.

Sometimes it's an article. Other times it's something else.

Please, dry your tears, no one said you're a bad person just because you made a sad attempt at a joke using a tired, older than dirt DU meme.

What I said was that if it is intentional disrultion, that it should be addressed.

Hardly an indictment of your character, for Goddess's sake.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. care to comment/elaborate on this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025366495#post56

[jeff47]

30. Not sure what you want elaborated

People conflate prostitution with trafficking because it's easier to win an argument against trafficking than an argument against willing prostitution.

It also coincides with their primary concern: forced prostitution/trafficking - they are more concerned about coerced women than willing prostitutes.

Removal of caveats in studies results in overstating the problem. Which then leads to a government response like "Pentameter Two" in the UK, which found a tiny number of women who wanted the free flight home.

That gets into difficult areas, such as the large number of women Pentameter Two found who were from South America and other impoverished areas who were indeed hauled to the UK to be prostitutes - The definition of trafficking. But they knew what they were getting into, and were choosing prostitution in another country as a "least bad" option. Which is why the vast majority of women they found wanted to stay in the UK and keep working as prostitutes.

Now, we should work towards a society where people aren't choosing between "least bad" options. Until we get there, having prostitutes operate within a black market has no benefits. For the prostitute, the "johns", or the neighbors. Get it into the light where regulation can offer protection.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. are you concerned about willing prostitutes?

I do not understand this

It also coincides with their primary concern: forced prostitution/trafficking - they are more concerned about coerced women than willing prostitutes.

[jeff47]

33. I'm concerned when they are willing only because it's the "least bad" option.

People shouldn't have to choose between only bad options.

However, making it so everyone has at least one good option is not exactly a small undertaking. So in the meantime we should make prostitution a little less bad via getting it out of the black market and into the light.

If the prostitute really likes their job, then we should get out of the way.....and document the hell out of it, because that is an extremely rare individual.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

34. ok, thanks for the clarification. n/t

[CTyankee]

10. the deeply erotic and fulfilling sexual experience of women and men in a mutually respectful

relationship must scare the shit out of some men for whom the gulp of hard core porn is the only way they think they can get sexual fulfillment. Eroticism need not be sexist or hurtful or threatening. It is quite the opposite. But for some men, this has not been their experience and they were raised by fathers who were similarly stunted in their sex lives.

[redqueen]

15. True. Erotica requires seeing the women involved as actual people.

Fully formed humans, not things to be used.

If one's ego is bound up in a need to feel dominant, well... that's gonna cause some frustration.

And look how many men need to feel dominant. How many don't like it when a woman earns more, is funnier, can fix things on her own, etc. (And again, before anyone starts - 'anecdote' is not the plural of 'data'!)

[ismnotwasm]

14. The Nordic model is working

And other countries are considering it. Loss of easy access.

[whathehell]

16. "You're either pro-industry or pro-human rights -- You can't be both" + 100

Agree completely.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. Yes, the difference between owning and renting a human ...

is there a difference? Is there room for debate? If the person fully autonomously desires to be rented/owned is that a consideration?

[whathehell]

36. I know what you are saying, but

in terms of people "fully autonomously" desiring to "be rented/owned", I'm unsure

because a number of studies on prostitution have shown that an overwhelming number

of prostitutes (between 75 and 91 percent) were sexually abused as children.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. I want to take that out of the equation. I want to speak of those ~5% of women in the

Sex Industry that are saying they enjoy their work and that they freely chose their career and supposedly had viable/comparable monetary options in other industries.

and, yes I understand what you are saying about the child abuse and to me that goes back to the *sound mind* that has been
mentioned in these discussions.

These nuances/subtleties from an anthropological/philosophical angle could be interesting.

[whathehell]

39. I will be honest..I don't know.

Feminist Susan Brownmiller thought it shouldn't as it "reinforces the idea that it's

a male's monetary, if not divine right, to have access to a woman's body".

[Tuesday Afternoon]

40. well, again that goes back to the inherent wrong of owning someone. and is there a difference

between owning and renting ...

that someone wants to be rented is one thing

and what about the person that wants to do the renting.

[whathehell]

41. I'm not sure that was Brownmiller's reasoning..In speaking of prostitution,

she was talking about TEMPORARY possession, not "owning", which would, of course, be slavery, another thing entirely.

So I'm not sure what you're asking in "What about the
person that wants to do the renting"?

Are you asking what it says about him, or whether his "rights"

are being infringed upon?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. what does it say about this person that they feel the need to own/rent a person

and yes, from a philosophical view point I am taking the stance that renting pretty much equals owning a person only for a set amount of time instead of for the whole life.

indentured servitude comes to mind also.

TEMPORARY possession

again it is the possession that is the thing in question.

temporary vs. permanent is only in reference to the time frame of it all.

so if the owning is inherently evil/bad would then not the same argument apply to the renting.

or is it the time of it all that determines the badness/goodness of it all?

[whathehell]

43. Who knows?...I don't think it would be happening much if not for

the patriarchy, although I know, of course, about gay male prostitution

and even "gigolos", but their numbers are not as great, for one reason

or another.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. who knows

and that is the philosophical of just this small subset.

that ~5%.

That some on DU are using to detract from this issue of the other ~95% which we have already determined need help in all sorts of capacity.

thanks for the discussion.

[el_bryanto]

19. I have been wondering about this myself

From a slightly different angle I guess - does anybody think that the legalization of prostitution is politically feasible in, say, the next decade? I don't see it. Even if you granted that it would be a good thing (and I personally think it would be a bad thing) it's not really very likely so why do we have so many threads on it?

I think you are right in your analysis that it's a wedge issue of sorts.

Bryant

[Scootaloo]

26. What started it?

A troll. Sadly, I can't speak the name, 'cause that's considered a 'call-out" and that is, of course, vastly worse than the racist and misogynist trolling this piece of fish-bait engages in.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. thank you for being brave enough to say even that.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

27. I just assumed it was spillover from the 50 shades nauseousness.

With the automatic mischaracterization of those who considered FSOG misogynistic drivel being cast as prudes and puritans and 'anti-sex', I assumed that in the expansion of their proclamation of being the 'pro-sex' and 'pro-choice' crowd, they felt the need to expand to claiming that being 'pro-sex' and 'pro-choice' meant one had to support prostitution as well.

[Squinch]

35. It's the convincing evidence that trafficking is increased in countries that legalize.

It makes people have to face the fact that prostitutes are not all girls who are working their way through college. Because they really almost got themselves believing that till it was pointed out as being unlikely.

The evidence that they are contributing to trafficking, slavery and horrible abuse, either directly or indirectly, makes them furious at those who point out the evidence. Because, you know, that makes sense.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. and then give a Seven y/o article trying to prove their point. sheesh.

[Squinch]

45. And the new nonsense: "But trafficking is a global problem so we can't talk about these country-by-

country studies!!! We can't talk at all until there is a global study that I APPROVE!!!!!!"

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. the approval. the official DU3 TMG Seal of Approval. USDA Prime.

we must seek it.

[LanternWaste]

44. I believe that some of the MRAs are starting "juicy" topics

My observation is that the topics of feminism discussed in GD recently (one to two weeks) have been pretty air-tight and that taking the contrary side to the issues you, SB, etc would have been too obvious to even the under-educated. I believe that some of the MRAs are starting "juicy" topics they can sink their teeth into and justify, pushing buttons and then using the counter arguments in their threads to point to a self-fulfilling prophecy they themselves instigated.

If HoF doesn't begin a contentious topic they can point to and say "see? I told you so!", they'll start one themselves. I think that's what we've seen over the past couple of days. Simply look at who's starting the threads, look for a pattern of names, and Bob's your uncle.

[boston bean]

48. I saw one poster comparing it to football.

and cringed.

[boston bean]

49. selling ones body to strangers is dangerous

and I would like to think most parents would discourage it.

[BainsBane]

51. It began with a news story about a boycott of 50 Shades

Last edited Tue Aug 12, 2014, 12:12 PM - Edit history (2)

then an absurd strawman OP by the nipple alerter. We had a slight lull for a week or two until one of the men who cares so much about "women's rights" started a thread about how it was time to legalize prostitution. He announced he would not read my posts (because women's rights obviously don't extend to disagreeing with men or having experiences they find inconvenient), which upset me so I started an OP. On and on it went.

[redqueen]

53. Aha, that's right - he posted an editorial by a conservative saying it should be legal.

Thank you.

I sure do miss having moderators.

[ismnotwasm]

54. Dumbass

If people think prostitution is so wonderful, why aren't going out there makin a living? Especially the ones who think it's wonderful and were out of work. Doesn't matter what you look like if you are willing to perform certain acts--Doing things you really don't want to do-- however good the money is. Ever notice that? Sooner or later money gets brought up-- like its a panacea for the rest of the shit you have to put up with.

I make decent money-- I also cut my hours and find ways to do things cheaper so I can have a life. Visiting clinics regularly -- if I'm responsible that is--to make sure I don't have crabs or a STD from sexwith multiple strangers a night is not my version of having a life. Neither is wondering if I've picked up some violent asshole.

[BainsBane]

55. It's always great for someone else to do

especially women, but not themselves.

[MadrasT]

56. Yeah... amazing how vocal they are about OTHER PEOPLE's rights to be prostitutes.

The only folks I have any respect for when they make the "legalize it" argument are actual sex workers.

[ismnotwasm]

57. Yup

And what other choice do they really have?