Feeling a bit jaded re: my peers...

[YoungDemCA]

That is to say, my Millennial (specifically, male) peers. I've come really close to getting in arguments with three different friends over feminism in recent weeks.

One of them called feminists a "hate group" that "hate men" and argued that "they do nothing for men's rights", another said that he was "fucking tired of being made out to be the 'bad guy'" by feminists and that he thinks "male privilege" is bullshit, and the third made fun of "social justice warriors" who "never shut up about being victims."

Now, these are all straight white guys from middle-class suburban backgrounds, so I think that they're being ridiculous, but I guess I'm not confident enough in myself to call them out on this behavior...yet. Moreover, I know that they're far, far from alone among this demographic (my demographic, as it happens)....if anything, I'm more of an exception to the rule in my overall attitudes on this-which says more about my peers than it does about me, I reckon!

I guess in a culture of porn, hookups, "playas" and "studs", etc., with "cock-blocking" and "friend-zoning" being seen as injustices to men (with a perverse sense of entitlement), it's depressingly easy to see why many young men feel this way.

Full disclosure: I have a lot of the same bullshit insecurities and anxieties as do many of my straight male peers. But I am definitely bothered by the aggressive, over-sexualized, women-objectifying messages that media, entertainment, the culture in general aim at me, as a young man....and I like to think, I at least try to be better than that. Because I know better.

Of course, this is really not about me, or even my male friends. It's about the overall culture of young men in America. Something's seriously troubling about it, and you know what? It hurts us as well. Stunts our emotional growth, our potential, our character as men and as unique individuals and as human beings-all of that is gone, when we play by society's gender roles.

I hope for any young men who may read this...that they know that feminism is not about hating men, or about making men feel like "bad guys" or "guilty" or whatever. Women's rights are human rights, and humanity is inclusive of men. What benefits the marginalized and the oppressed, benefits all of us. That's the message that needs to be drilled home, somehow.

Thanks for reading.

[shenmue]

1. ...

[onecaliberal]

2. It is completely sad that some people consider

Equal rights for ALL as guilting people or somehow about hate. It IS about all people of all gender ID, race, religions and color having the absolute same right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[seabeyond]

15. level out the ole playing field and i am with you... dude? nt

[onecaliberal]

19. More like.

Dudette.

[seabeyond]

20. good to know. and still the point, level playing field and i would e more likely to play the game

you suggest.

[onecaliberal]

22. Absolutely. The field should be the absolute same for everyone.

And by everyone I mean you're a human being.

[seabeyond]

24. should be, but it is not. hence, feminism. dealing with the unlevel playing field

for women.

[onecaliberal]

25. Yes, and other classes of people as well.

[seabeyond]

26. my apologies....

i may not have read all your first post, or still in conversation in my head from another thread.

anyway. i may have interpreted what you were saying, incorrectly.

[onecaliberal]

27. No worries...

[Warpy]

3. Yeah, their saving grace is that they're young

and don't have the kind of life experience it takes to realize that some people are victimized in this country because of who they were born while others have privilege for the same reason.

My own response in the 60s was "Good grief, who told you that?" something that implied they were being lazy and echoing their peers or parents instead of thinking things through.

I then changed the subject because I'd rather they thought about things than get all defensive in a confrontational discussion. It worked on some of them.

[seabeyond]

14. ya. not all of that "they" are young. we have a tons of men that are my peers,

looking me in the eyes, telling me i am less.

[Warpy]

18. My peers grew up in the 50s

and too many of them think women are devices that clean the house and cook the food and provide a little something their mamas didn't.

They've been remarkably thick headed through the years and are now keeping the mail order bride business booming while they look for the perfect 50s housewife to take care of them while being resentful of their ex wives for having to work for a living.

[seabeyond]

21. which is my point. a mans issue, not a young or old mans issue. nt

[ismnotwasm]

4. This is common

When I discuss feminist issues with men of any age, I found them surprisingly receptive, as long as I don't mention the "F" word. Just goes to show how well feminism has been demonized and how ingrained privledge is. To me, it speaks of needing many more "social wariors"--

[seabeyond]

13. i am too deep. i cant do the surface. i no longer say it in a way where

i tippy toe around a mans sensitivity. lol

oh noes!!11!1!1!1

*really others are better than me, so i leave it to them. i cant do it anymore. i recognize my limitations, lol

[ismnotwasm]

17. Just talked to a Friend on FB

Who is pissed at the behavior of certain men she's around and told them off-- she's not afraid to speak up, not even a little bit--but she said "This doesn't make me a 'feminist or a man-hater' I got on there and said I'm a loud and proud feminist and decent men are a part of my tribe. The rest are fucking dinosaurs, I don't care how old they are,

[mercuryblues]

5. I always shake my head when

I hear this goodie,,,,, "they do nothing for men's rights",

1/ it is not called maninism

2/nothing is stopping a man to start an organization equal to feminism. Hint a group complaining about how women are ruining their lives because they won't date them is not equal to feminism. Personally I would love to see them fight to get the same pay as women.

3/Why is it always the woman's responsibility to make sure men are happy? Are they to feeble to learn how to care for themselves?

4/ Lucky for men that many times feminism does benefit men as a by-product. take a look at social security death benefits and send Ruth Bader Ginsburg a huge thank you card. Birth control, men should be thanking women for that little Supreme court ruling or else they would be having a kid with every woman they slept with.

Thanks for posting this. It needed to be said and heard.

[seabeyond]

12. "1. it is not called maninism" not even called.... humanism. nt

[Oneironaut]

6. I blame men's rights becoming trendy online.

It is especially trendy in gaming communities. You basically have these young guys being told that every rejection they've ever had wasn't their fault, and that it's all feminists' fault.

Feminism became a dirty word. Most of the people that use it don't know what feminism is.

[BainsBane]

9. It does seem to have gone mainstream

YoungDem's friends are echoing it.

[seabeyond]

10. yes. nt

[geek tragedy]

7. young, sexually frustrated men are often the most intense misogynists.

Rather than blame themselves for their troubles with women ("what could I possibly do differently?&quot they channel that on to all women.

Of course, there's a strong, odious cultural misogyny that's more than happy to accommodate them.

[seabeyond]

11. what you must think about women. how you must hate them. see them as a fuck.

i was talking to my 20 yr old nephew. on three occasions just recently, explaining to him, in this space, he cannot bring his porn. taking him to cash a check this morning, talking to him about his choices, messing up his life, at a mere 20. look at the choices, adjust, and move forward.

he has a mother that was not there and cries that she did the best she could at the time. a single drunk father that introduced porn into his life.... always. allowed drinking at ten. stripper to perform, cause they all partied together, ....

i told him, remember... remember when i would say to your father, say to you boys, ..... that this stuff not really age appropriate and was gonna fuck with you?

and you all were on my ass as a prude and how i am not raising my boys properly denying them real world ADULT play?

he laughed... ya....

he is talking about a girlfriend. and how they have to go step by step to fuggin figure out how to even treat each other, they are so messed up.

and i tell him.... she is ONLY fuggin 18, as you are only 20. totally messed up youths. all brilliant. we can figure this shit out.

this is what our children were raised with the last decade or two.

mine anyway.

[geek tragedy]

16. I think this is a slightly different dynamic

more of personal feelings of inadequacy and inferiority that get projected

The ones that see women as objects to be used is different than what I am talking about--the needy 'nice guys'

[seabeyond]

23. sure. my point was, there are all kinds of societal conditionings... ect. i have an oldest son

that played for a moment, in entitlement. like 16, 17'ish. nipped that shit in the ass.

[seabeyond]

8. i was just talking to my 20 yr old nephew who is totally screwed up.

living with a 17 yr old boy, ready to take on the world but livin' with mama for another yr, because of graduation. freedom. independence. we are negotiating, lol. i want an easy riding 'nother yr with him.

while my educated, ... (university two yrs and the awesome in smart and thinking) 20 yr old son is coming home to live for three months.

also another 22 yr old nephew from the same family, that is messed up in a separate way with a one yr old daughter, lol.

i live with these people. love them. nurture them, want the best for them, i am on their side. well, duh.

easter. drinkers now, .... adding in two nieces, 22 and 26.

i sit to eat with that group of three, that had a dysfunctional family life for two decades. porn.

we are fuckin talking about

porn.

really people. NO fuggin' interest. why do people keep shoving their porn in my face, in my space. you all say YOUR right to use porn. go for it. keep it the fuck out of my space and my face.

i am kinda confused because i had just sat down, and had been thinking about and taking care of the group inside, .... sitting at a table to eat. these people are not in that one particular part of that family and were talking about all kinds of fun stuff, and it was not porn.

then we go to how both nephews were raped. boys can be raped too. both you were raped? i asked. this is a new thing from mens groups, givin' to our boys. that they are equally raped. cause they arent really into the girl, but the girl is naked, so he cant help, gets a hard on, takes care of it, ..... you know, rape. the kinda rape all girls are talking about with date rape. remorse. lol.

omg.... then we went on to some other, .... being fucked up sexually and i think one was saying has a tough time getting it up any more, ..... 20 fuggin old.

mostly i am listening. trying to process this all. and we just progress to another direction that is just as amazing.

i read about a 16 yr old gang raped during spring break among a crowd. drugged, videoed, distributed for rape porn, for men to get off on.

i read about a 3 yr old that caused her own rape.

are ye there.... yet?