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Tue Jan 6, 2015, 02:43 PM

How can anyone reform the democratic party

if populist principles aren't fought for.

The secrecy of TPP and all stated opposition on this group's postings are a clear indication of a non-populist trade deal.

Obama publicly supports this deal and is avidly fighting for its passage.

So how do we fight back?

Where are the lines drawn on Obama criticism, since he is working against us on this matter.

Do we casually criticize and watch as Obama, Dimon and the corporate team sweep to victory.

Or do we fight with everything we got because they sure aren't playing nice on the other side.

Please inform me of the subjective line of when it is Obama bashing and when it is not?

This is a discussion post and I would like to know what tools we have and can use that aren't Obama bashing

36 replies, 4561 views

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Arrow 36 replies Author Time Post
Reply How can anyone reform the democratic party (Original post)
aspirant Jan 2015 OP
NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #1
sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #4
NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #9
sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #11
Jackpine Radical Jan 2015 #7
aspirant Jan 2015 #13
NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #18
aspirant Jan 2015 #20
NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #21
aspirant Jan 2015 #22
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #27
NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #32
aspirant Jan 2015 #24
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #26
demwing Jan 2015 #2
aspirant Jan 2015 #8
demwing Jan 2015 #14
MisterP Jan 2015 #3
sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #5
demwing Jan 2015 #6
NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #10
aspirant Jan 2015 #12
sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #15
aspirant Jan 2015 #16
sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #36
Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #17
aspirant Jan 2015 #19
Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #23
aspirant Jan 2015 #25
RiverLover Jan 2015 #29
randys1 Jan 2015 #28
NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #30
randys1 Jan 2015 #31
NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #33
randys1 Jan 2015 #34
DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #35

Response to aspirant (Original post)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 02:53 PM

1. Example: A post titled "ObamaSecret" with little more information and no links is not helpful.

 

Whereas, in contrast, a thoughtful post with some enlightening reliable information about some matter of concern that might inform the reader, with some suggested actions that can be taken, would be very helpful.

First of all, reform of the party is something that will require the greatest number of hands, a broad base, grass roots and plenty of cooperation.

There are millions of people and hundreds of DU members who are able to desire reform but are nonetheless supportive of the sitting Democrat.

To some, insulting the president might be a turn-off, and any good that might come from unproductively complaining about him (I doubt there's much) is probably going to turn off some people who we really would prefer to positively engage.

The answer to your question can be compared to parenting:

You love your child, but they lied to you or did something wrong.

Do you try to bully or embarrass them or call them out, or do you peacefully explain your observations and suggest relief?

The latter is likely to produce positive results, the former is likely to just add noise to the conversation.

Finally, when we fight amongst ourselves, when we shit on our own politicians, we are helping the bad guys.

That's just a fact.

The tools to use are ideas, not emotions and not anger.

Peace.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:10 PM

4. My feeling about politicians in general now is that they are not my friends or family. They

are elected by the people to do certain things. When they don't, they deserve criticism.

Anything I would object to from a Republican, such as cabinet appointees eg, I will object to from a Democrat.

I got over 'loving' politicians after fighting so hard for Clinton against Bush supporters for years, even after he was out of office, they were obsessed with him. I received death threats, personal attacks etc but was so defensive on his behalf it didn't matter.

Then I learned of his close relationship with the Bush family, saw him using his popularity to try to rehabilitate Bush and felt totally betrayed.

I feel it is the duty of every citizen to criticize politicians when they are supporting policies that are harmful to the people who elect them.

I can't 'like' a politician who isn't working for the people, or dislike him/her for that matter.

But we are encouraged to grow personally attached to politicians. I fell for it once but won't do so again.

Obama has done some good things, but overall he has been more of a friend to Wall St than to the people who elected him.

I have asked this question repeatedly, but where are the Progressive Dems in his cabinet? I can list all the Republicans and Corporate CEOS, but I can't come up with one, other than Van Jones who 'retired' after a ridiculous attack from Breitbart due to poll he signed once, yet people like Clapper who LIED to Congress are still there.

Focus from now on should be Congress anyhow, the WH has already been coopted by Corporate interests and only Congress can block their agenda.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:41 PM

9. We don't disagree. I doubt that any more than 10% of politicians are on our side.

 

Occasionally, a Democrat can be a real enemy and a Republican might be a friend.

Among that 10% who will fight, hardly any of them have much of a shot at beating well-funded competitors in any given contest.

In any event, my reply to the question has more to do with tenor, what constitutes productive OPs, and how to get where we want to go.

The posting member had an OP locked and I suspect that this question, and it's a good one, was prompted by that lock.

In no case is Obama or anyone else above criticism in this group, but a one-liner OP "ObamaSecret" is creepy, three hosts agree, and we'd prefer not to condone it.

I know you are a fighter, sabrina 1, and I'm always encouraged by your posts and replies and that you post in this group.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:52 PM

11. Thanks for the explanation, NYC_SKP.

It would be nice to keep the standards here high.

Sometimes we all just write from emotion which I think is what probably happened. We think everyone knows what is in our head, lol!

Anyhow, it is a good question. Wish the answers were as easy as the question.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:38 PM

7. That was a beautiful, teaching sort of response.

Thank you.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 04:11 PM

13. Do you support this non-populist trade deal and if not what are you specifically doing to stop it?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 05:47 PM

18. I distrust this trade deal, would like to know more about it.

 

What am I doing to stop it?

Well, my profession is related to domestic job generation, so every day I do very specific things that promote economic growth HERE, not in other countries.

In this capacity, I work with corporate and nonprofit organizations and public agencies toward these goals.

I'm published and I present at conferences as well as maintain networks among like-minded professionals.

And I try to guide the discussion in my private and professional life, and here on DU as host and former DU moderator.

I think that's a considerable amount of effort.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 06:15 PM

20. I'm a little hazy here

Do you support fast track?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 06:20 PM

21. Well, yes.

 

Yes, I think you might be a little hazy.

And, no, I don't generally support fast track or ALEC or the inordinate involvement of corporate lobbyists in the development of legislation.

I think that any good progressive is opposed to that sort of thing.

I think any good progressive wants to see transparency and careful deliberation of all legislation, with input from all affected and interested parties, like labor unions and environmental groups.

Did you think I was supportive of fast track or the TPP?

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 06:40 PM

22. I would hope not

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 07:50 PM

27. +1 ...

 

Wow ... Two in a row!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 08:24 PM

32. !!!

 

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 07:21 PM

24. Populism, respect the people

"with some suggested actions that can be taken". Could you please give me some actions you would suggest to change Obama's position on Fast Track to help our cause?

Is the President insulting the American people by hiding ObamaSecret from them? Why wouldn't the President share it with the people, while the 600 corps are writing and reading every word?

Are the people that we are turning off, positively engaging us on how to stop Fast Track? On DU that they call us haters, not to friendly to me.

"Parenting" We have peacefully called our reps and asked them to support us, minimal to no results. We even tried begging, rarely within parenting, with minimal to no results.

"fight among ourselves" The people that call others racist and haters, are they the good guys? The politicians that pass bills like CRominbus, are they shitting on the people and the populist movement?

"tools to use are ideas, not emotions and not anger" Could you be a little bit more informative on that? Specifically how emotions don't affect viewpoints and voting habits.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 07:47 PM

26. +1 ...

 

Well put.

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Response to aspirant (Original post)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 02:57 PM

2. The problem with your previous thread

 

was not that it was critical of Obama, but that it wasn't clear what you were talking about, what your sources were, or what your solution was.

I have zero problem with constructive criticism. i have little tolerance for "bashing."

I'm not convinced you were bashing, but there was so little content to your post that the hosts were left without much to go on.

The offer made by NYC_SKP stands...create another thread on the same topic, avoid RWing talking points, and be constructive.

thanks!

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Response to demwing (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:38 PM

8. With due respect

Would you consider calling me "moronic" bashing? I see no hide on that post.

So if I understand you ObamaSecret is not a problem. I provided 2 sources, Daily Kos and the NYTimes to provide the secrecy aspect and lack of transparency.

My solution is crystal clear in this OP and if I was given the time it could have been given there.I like to think people enjoy an opinion without the poster revealing every single nuance. I always get the feeling I'm being lectured to when everything is presented in finite detail.

Can you please specify the RWing talking points I used? I have not seen the WORD "ObamaSecret" used on a Glenn Beck website or any I googled.

Obama works with Repubs on the non-populist CRominbus bill and its called bipartisian
Rep. Grayson works with repubs on passing amendments and where is the outrage?
I try to wordsmith and fight against TPP, even googling ObamaSecret to prevent any right-wing
ties and I'm locked out.
When did the rwing receive a patent on using words to make a point?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 04:14 PM

14. Lol - In my experience "with all due respect"

 

means something different than the face value definition. no worries!

So if I understand you "ObamaSecret" is not a problem

Yep. Not a problem.


if I was given the time it could have been given there...

No problem, I'll open the thread and you can fix it. Say the word...


I like to think people enjoy an opinion without the poster revealing every single nuance

OK, but you didn't provide "every single nuance." In fact, you provided NO nuance, no details, and nothing constructive,


Would you consider calling me "moronic" bashing.

Probably, but that's not how I read the comment. OP can stand for "Original Poster" or "Original Post." I took it to mean the latter, and it actually influenced me to call for the thread to be locked.


Rep. Grayson works with repubs on passing amendments and where is the outrage?

I have no outrage when Dems work with Republicans , I have outrage when Dems work toward Republican goals. Were you outraged when Russ Feingold worked with John McCain? McCain/Feingold was great legislation. Politics makes strange bedfellows, and I'm a results guy rather than a process guy.


I try to wordsmith and fight against TPP, even googling ObamaSecret to prevent any right-wing ties and I'm locked out.

You're not locked out, don't take it that way. First of all, you are here in a new thread, chattin' it up! Second, you are being actively encouraged by two hosts to try again. Third, I've asked NYC_SKP to unlock the thread so you can fix it up.

It's all good!


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Response to aspirant (Original post)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:07 PM

3. no third parties, no not voting, no objection to a torpedoed primary, no primary at all

unless someone's resigning, no objection when they hand an election to the GOP and then blame voters for it, no complaining about policies passed, no complaining about non-vigintillionaires being locked out

and don't say anything wrong with this situation

I think that covers it

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Response to aspirant (Original post)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:31 PM

5. First, I believe we can reform the Dem Party but not by starting at the top.

The WH is out of reach of the average voter right now. We are not involved in that process at all. Candidates are chosen, no doubt vetted by Corporate Interests, then we the voters, are treated like children, we are 'allowed' a few primary challenges, most of whom don't stand a chance since they will receive no support from the Party Leadership.

Then we are provided with TWO choices, generally as we've observed over the past several elections, either one of these choices will be okay with Wall St.

So, since we our pretty much out of the entire process of picking a Presidential Candidate, OUR FOCUS should be where we CAN influence the outcome to some extent.

Locally we can help choose and then support Democrats who actually represent the people's interests. We can help get progressive issues on local Ballots, this was done in the midterms and those issues WON.

Districtwise we can get involved in who runs for Congress. We know the party leadership doesn't generally support Progressives so it is up to us to make up for that.

It is vitally important to get Progressive Dems into Congress and get rid of all the Corporate funded members who vote against our best interests right now.

Statewide we can get involved in Senatorial races, the same way. And for the same reasons, little support from the party leadership for Progressives in Senate races either.

The goal should be to fill Congress and the Senate with Progressive, non Corporate Dems. Yes, it's a lofty goal, and will take a huge amount of work, and fighting Corporate Money will be a huge hurdle, but we still have a better chance of influencing Congress than the WH, for now.

We will be distracted in 2016 by all the hype for the Billion Dollar Presidential race. People will put time and energy into a race they really have no influence over.

I am hoping the focus stays on races where we can win, so that no matter who wins the WH, they cannot overcome the people's interests for Corporate interestests, such as the TPP, because they will not be able to get past Congress.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:37 PM

6. Thanks Sabrina

 

as usual, you've nailed it.

Grass Roots activism is the populist solution, by definition.

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Response to demwing (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:47 PM

10. A treasured member, she is.

 

I'm really appreciative of all of her posts and replies.

Nailed it, indeed.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 04:01 PM

12. Sabrina

I agree with the long-term plan yet I'm trying to figure out ways to stop this trade deal now.

We have a repub house and senate with only an Obama veto, but we have "the people" and our creative ideas. I give solutions long thought and if I can sway votes from some repubs by beating them at their own game I find no shame in this. Adapting is a must now and I will stand tall with offering ways of possibly stopping this trade bill.

Remember we stopped Chained CPI.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 04:36 PM

15. I wish I knew how to stop it aspirant. The only way available to us is to

contact Reps in both parties imo. Not terribly effective I know especially since the elections are over for now.

There are groups of people working on this and hopefully members of Congress can be swayed to reject it until everything in it is made available to both Congress and the Public.

And this is why we have to begin the process of not having to face these kinds of problems in the future.

We waited too long, as your question demonstrates.

But for now, we are going to have to rely on those currently in office.

Eg, do we have the names of the 600 Corps who are involved in the TPP?

We don't even know who is writing this stuff.

Are Foreign Corps allowed to influence our legislation?

So many questions and way too few answers. And it will stay that way or get worse, unless we begin the process of changing they entire corrupt system.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 05:23 PM

16. So the limited amount we know now isn't good

We do know it can be stopped by Obama pulling it off the table, the participating countries not signing it or voting down fast track. I think the first 2 maybe a bit tough but influencing more members to vote no could be possible.

I'm trying to give us some weapons that may impact the conversation or e-mails to our reps. Just saying please doesn't seem to work anymore, but look how many Repubs wrapped themselves around ObamaCare and voted how many times to repeal it? Can we beat them at their own game until we can get more Populist/Progressives elected.

Is it worth a try?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #16)

Wed Jan 7, 2015, 01:12 AM

36. Well, first we need to know how many Dems are opposed to it. I have read here on DU

that 60% are for it. But others say that is not true, that it is Dems who are opposed to it.

I do think it's worth a try to let them know how the people feel about it.

I think that would be more effective if it is done by an organization who can collect signatures, rather than individuals doing it.

I will have to check out some of the organizations, the Unions eg, they cannot be too happy about it.

But a part of me thinks it is already a done deal which is why Obama seems to be so confident that he doesn't need his own party and is willing to go against them in order to get it done.

I hope I'm wrong.

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Response to aspirant (Original post)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 05:43 PM

17. That's a lot of "reform"

Reform the Democratic Party and Stop the TPP!?!

Regarding "reforming the party" it's a matter of
applying pressure and displacement of entrenched
interests that are calcified or malignant.
The notion of "electability" at the expense of values
need a serious reconsideration.

Regarding the TPP, people need to continue pulling at the
treads of the legislative fabric...
Pull it into the light and work to unravel the interwoven interests
that defined the corporate warp and weft.

On the whole, singling out the president whether it's
the pretzelnit or Obama is just giving a face to the problem.
Seriously, did Obama really create the TPP or is he the face
of TPTB that dominate the executive office?

Lastly, strategically speaking, what's the maneuver?
You suggest "fight with everything we got".
Noble, but whats the end game?
What are the available resources?
What are the possible TPP timelines?

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Response to Cosmic Kitten (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 06:11 PM

19. ObamaSecret

"Pulling at the threads of the legislative fabric" Please give me an idea on how long that will take, are we talking years or decades?

ObamaSecret deal is now staring us in the face. What do you say to those Americans who lose their jobs when this trade bill is passed. When they sink into poverty, do we tell them to wait until the threads of the legislative fabric are completely woven?

This is a non-populist deal that Obama is strongly supporting. Do we really care who created it because this monster is here now. Obama has a veto pen and he is suppose to represent us and he's not. The critcism is deserved when "We The People" are left out.

"what's the maneuver" = To try to get as many No votes as possible.

"end game" = the defeat of the ObamaSecret deal

"available resources" = the people, having tools to use when contacting their reps. Begging doesn't work.

"TPP timelines" = Do we wait to the last minute?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 06:46 PM

23. I think I get your point?

Somehow "we" are responsible for people
who will lose their jobs from the TPP?

We are talking about the TPP and fast track right?
If so, how about we drop the "SecretObama" term?
If you're looking to mobilize or build a coalition
creating a pejorative would be counter productive here.
It also seems the term has been an issue in this forum already?

Do we really care who created it because this monster is here now.

Yeah, "who created it"?
Do they have more monsters?

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Response to Cosmic Kitten (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 07:41 PM

25. Point the way.

If "we" fight to stop it and it still passes then we don't carry the shame. The people who fought to pass it carry the blame and we know who they are, right?

Why don't you adopt ObamaSecret,you KNOW it's my free choice to frame my discussion

"issue in this forum" Yes and I stood up and fought for the rights of all of us, not just me. We the Populist people won.

From what I saw GWBush, HRC,Obama's trade guy Froman but its history doesn't matter to me. It's here just waiting to do the corporation's dirty work.Wasting time trying to go back into the past and blaming its founders, doesn't help us one bit in stopping it now.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 08:17 PM

29. "ObamaSecret" doesn't help your/our cause. Have some class.

Its ridiculous. I don't want to read anything you have to say when you use this term.

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Response to aspirant (Original post)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 08:05 PM

28. Like how he is looking for any excuse to OK Keystone?

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Response to randys1 (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 08:18 PM

30. "Obama won't sign Keystone pipeline legislation; Nebraska court decision among factors"

 

I know, right? Any excuse... I was really happy to read about this development.

Obama won't sign Keystone pipeline legislation; Nebraska court decision among factors

LINCOLN — Nebraska emerged yet again Tuesday in the national political showdown over the Keystone XL pipeline.

Citing a pending court decision on the project route through Nebraska, the White House said for the first time that President Barack Obama would veto legislation approving the much-delayed Canadian oil pipeline.

Hours after the Republican-controlled Senate announced a bill to allow Keystone XL construction, White House spokesman Josh Earnest said lawmakers need to let the “well-established process” play out.

“If this bill passes this Congress, the president wouldn’t sign” it, Earnest said Tuesday, adding that legislation shouldn’t undermine the review process under way at the State Department or circumvent the Nebraska Supreme Court’s consideration of the state law used to establish the pipeline route.

http://www.omaha.com/news/nebraska/white-house-says-obama-would-veto-keystone-xl-pipeline-legislation/article_86ab742a-95d1-11e4-b561-c74282a6f51e.html

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 08:23 PM

31. Good for him, like we have been saying, the Obama Luther represents, aka Key/Peele

is coming to kick some ass

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Response to randys1 (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 08:26 PM

33. Do NOT cross him, er, them...

 

NSFW:



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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 08:28 PM

34. THere ya go, and why is it FALL DOWN funny? Cuz it is true...

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Response to aspirant (Original post)

Wed Jan 7, 2015, 12:36 AM

35. while there are some who just slam

Just to get their jollies, some of us are like the friend who says "Dude, you are in no shape to drive tonight, don't drive home, we have a guest room to sleep this off." We are his friends, because we want, and need hiom to do well, we are also aware that a bucnh opf people in the party are handing him beers and telling us to shuit up, in part because they are drunk of Koch beer themseves

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