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merrily

(45,251 posts)
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:56 PM Oct 2015

Sanders is not Nader, is he?

I have not been able to relate much to Nader, especially since he lost all those elections. However, just from reading his wikipedia, I would bet everything that I own that he did more for people by the time he was 40 than most of his critics will even try to do in their entire lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader

Despite that, the hatred and disinformation permeates any DU thread in which his name comes up is enough to make me reel.

Until recently, I read that his unforgiveable sin was running as a "spoiler," thereby resulting in the election of Dimson, which destroyed this country. That sentence is a lot to unpack. Maybe I or someone else will try to get help in unpacking it in the Populist Group someday. For purposes of this post today, however, let's take every bit of that sentence as unassailably true.

Senator Sanders has long been an ally of, and asset to, the Democratic Party. On his arrival in the House, he formed the House Progressive Caucus, now called the Congressional Progressive Caucus, even though Sanders is the only Senator who is a member. For the first eight years of its existence, he chaired it, too. It is the largest Caucus in Congress, other than the two main party caucuses.

When Dean was head of the DNC, he called Sanders an asset to the Party. Schumer, as head of the DSCC, did the same and decided not to run any Democratd against Sanders. Twice, Sanders was the nominee of the Vermont Democratic Party for the U.S. Senate, even though he did not run for the Democratic nomination. When a Democrat did challenge Sanders in a primary, the Democratic Party, including Bubba, supported Sanders against the Democrat!

When Sanders began contemplating a run for the Presidency, he said he would not run as a spoiler, as Nader had. True to his word, when Sander did decide to run, it was in the Democratic Presidential primary. From the very day of his formal announcement, however, the DNC has done whatever it could to undermine him. It attempted to raise money on the excitement of his announcement with an email that made it seem as though donations to the DNC would enure to Sanders' benefit. I have little doubt that diverted much needed seed money from Sanders' campaign. From that day to this, it's been one thing after another. Now, we hear that the DNC will weight debate audiences toward supporters of HRC.

WHY is the Party treating Sanders worse than it treated Nader?

Doesn't this encourage future challengers to the Party's anointed one (and, yes, there will be more anointed ones in the future) to run as spoilers?

20 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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DianeK

(975 posts)
1. come on merrily...
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:00 PM
Oct 2015

bernie is no nader...i loved nader..but nader ran as a third party..this is exactly why bernie is not running as a third party...he refuses to be a spoiler...relax

SandersDem

(592 posts)
3. Great Post merrily!
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:24 PM
Oct 2015

The most disturbing thing I read in it was near the end when you mentioned that the DNC is weighting the audience towards Hillary???? That is outrageous, but I think even so Bernie Sanders is going to be difficult for her to attack and if she does, I know he will respond with facts.

Facts that will get good applause from Democratic voters in the audience, so hopefully even though the DNC is in full on freak out mode, I know that these current DNC leaders days are seriously numbered.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
5. Thanks, SandersDem. At least three people on this thread posted they heard
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:33 PM
Oct 2015

the audience will be skewed to make sure Hillary gets the applause. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1277&pid=9158

Here's hoping that, at least, they won't boo anyone.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
4. Why?
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:25 PM
Oct 2015

It's not just or even mainly that Clinton is the Chosen of the establishment. It's that if Bernie wins, it signals a major loss of power for the current party power brokers, the people who are doing everything they can to get the rank and file in line with the establishment choice. And it shows the people that they CAN buck the establishment, which is NOT what the Party wants. They don't want us thinking for ourselves, they just want us cheering on Team Blue every election cycle, pouring what little money we have into the pockets of their picked people, and voting in their pre-selected candidates.

If the people vote in aindependent 'socialist', even under a democratic banner, we might just decide to keep voting in outsiders, and keep rocking the boat.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
6. Exactly. It also means the likelihood of more primary challenges to establishment Dems.
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:34 PM
Oct 2015

They can't have that!

merrily

(45,251 posts)
7. The Clintons have done a lot of campaigning and fundraising for a lot of people,
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:36 PM
Oct 2015

which translates to a lot of chits to call in. They've also done a lot of fundraising for the Party. So, I get some of this, but enough is enough!

SandersDem

(592 posts)
8. money is as powerful as votes, especially early, BUT
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:43 PM
Oct 2015

money coming at a candidate in small amounts from over 1,000,000 people is an attention grabber. The small money follows the candidates that are true to their word AND who tap into the feelings of the Democratic masses.

It's the economy stupid.

Yes, we can.

Change we can believe in.

and...

A Political Revolution is Coming.

Oh yes it is!

jkbRN

(850 posts)
9. Insiders v Outsiders
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:57 PM
Oct 2015

Establishment v not. Nader ran as an independent. Bernie is running within the party and always caucused with them. Therefore, (I believe) if they didn't let him run there would have been a huge uprising. Not to mention he has helped out with getting democrats elected in the past. In light of this, they will do anything to push him out--they know he will represent the people and not the establishment in congress. For the DLC/DNC this is way too risky.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
14. My perception:
Mon Oct 5, 2015, 05:16 AM
Oct 2015

Nader knew about the DLC and its aims and tried to change things from within the Party, but the Party was having none of it. So, he ran to bring attention to the fact that the Party was moving rightward and was no longer the Party of the New Deal, the Fair Deal or the Great Society that people, even today, think they are voting for.

In 2004, I heard him saying on TV that, if you live in a red state or a blue state, voting for him was "a no brainer." I did not hear him urging voters in purple states to vote for him. To the contrary, a Naderite who had turned 18 shortly before the 2004 Presidential called this very blue stater and asked me to vote for Nader in Boston, where it would not make a difference and, in return, he would vote Democratic in Missouri instead of voting for Nader there. Perhaps stupidly, I refused, but that is what Naderites in purple states were offering people in solid red or solid blue states.

IMO, Nader was trying to raise awareness and also trying to get Democratic voters to make a statement to the Democratic Party about what kind of platform they really want. However, the Supreme Court turned his 2000 run into something else. Meanwhile, he got some ballot access laws changed, at considerable cost in time and legal fees, which had the "stench" of democracy and fairness all over it. But, yes, there were also a lot of narcissistic actions and some of his statements were, IMO, bizarre. As I said, I can't relate to a lot of what he has done and said since he tried to become a politician, but I cannot condemn every bit of it, either. At least, not my perception of it, as I have described it in this post.

Bernie, however, has, as you point out, worked within and with the Democratic Party since he went to Congress. Though immensely popular in Vermont, he did not even challenge the Vermont Senator whose seat he now holds. Rather, he waited for his predecessor to retire. (His predecessor was also an indie who was caucusing with Democrats while Bernie was in the House.) Bernie also carried water for the Party on TV whenever anyone gave him air time.

What the Party is doing to Bernie is known now to political junkies. Eventually, it will come out to the general public. And it will backfire against the Party, no matter who is in the Oval Office at the time. Hillary had many advantages over Bernie in this race from the jump--money, name recognition, the type of offices held, etc. The Party could have at least chosen to provide as level a playing field as it could and benefited from the enthusiasm Bernie is bringing from the youth vote and disaffected voters. It has chosen a different path, one I think is both malodorous and counter-productive.

Right now, at the Presidential level, the popular vote is often very close to 50-50 and the electoral vote has sometimes come down to as few as EIGHT purple counties. You take a significant risk when you turn off millions of members of your own base with the kinds of tactics the party has been using against Bernie.

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
11. In other words, when the Dems needed Sanders, he was one, but how dare he be a real one...
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:35 PM
Oct 2015

... whatever that means.

That thing that they've done over and over.... to anoint the candidate and have everyone fall in line has even effected Howard Dean, someone who I worked very hard for in 2004.

I think the party treats Sanders this way because the party isn't serious about returning to its roots... rather we should all fall in line under an oligarchy. I've always believed many in my party have mis-used the word, "spoiler" when referring to Nader.

It's so much easier to create the monster you've become than admit that we've lost our way to a sustainable republic, which we've long not been able to keep.

Hurts, doesn't it? I'm deeply disappointed, but I'm not defeated. Hell no...

merrily

(45,251 posts)
16. On several occasions, the Democratic Party preferred Sanders to a Democrat!
Mon Oct 5, 2015, 05:31 AM
Oct 2015

He had proven he could win elections, even if the Republicans and Democrats combined forces against him. So, they stopped running candidates against him. When a Democrat decided on his own to challenge Bernie, the Party sided with Bernie.

Locking arms against democracy and demonizing others is the way the Party has chosen, rather than seeking votes by doing what most Americans want done. http://www.democraticunderground.com/12777036 (Let's talk polls.)

Hurts, doesn't it? I'm deeply disappointed, but I'm not defeated.


"It ain't over till it's over." Yogi Berra.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
12. Great OP merrily. Thanks for posting this. It needed to be said.
Mon Oct 5, 2015, 12:32 AM
Oct 2015

There is a LOT of important information in your post, which I really appreciate you pulling together and sharing.

It's giving me a whole new level of appreciation for what Bernie is doing and for how we can best support
his powerful bid for the WH, a bid that grows more compelling every day, as people learn about him.

The more we call attention to some of the underhanded dirty tricks being employed agains Bernie, the better.
I like to think of Bernie's campaign as a big "turning the lights on" phenomenon, revealing some of the rot
and less-than-democratic means Estalishment Dems seem willing to stoop to, to get their way.

In short, well done.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
13. Sanders is not Nader, and that's to his credit.
Mon Oct 5, 2015, 03:29 AM
Oct 2015

For my part, I wouldn't say that I hate Ralph Nader, but his bad judgment in running for President as a minor-party candidate severely tarnished what had been a phenomenal legacy. (He of course had a right to choose to do so. He also had a right to choose to run in the Democratic primaries. In choosing which right to exercise, he chose badly. This isn't 20-20 hindsight, because the risk was pointed out to him loudly and repeatedly.)

I suspect you and I disagree on aspects of the 2000 election. Putting that aside, what I think is clear about the 2016 election is: If Sanders had decided to run in the general election as a minor-party or independent candidate, then the chance of a Republican becoming President would have been increased. Sanders recognized that, and chose wisely.

Some Sanders supporters seem to hope that, if he loses the nomination, he will run in November. I disagree. First, I think he definitely won't. Second, if he did, it would be a bad idea.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
20. I voted for Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004.
Mon Oct 5, 2015, 08:05 AM
Oct 2015

I don't know if that has anything to do with your suspicion.

If Sanders is not the nominee, I very much doubt Sander will run against Biden the nominee.

I do think many will go Green, stay home or write in Sanders, even if he himself says not to, though.

You can't keep doing your best to disempower rank and file Democrats and forever get no reaction other than dutifully marching to the polls to vote Democratic because "the left has nowhere else to go."

Yes, I know all the arguments against all those things. I am not advocating any of them. However, if the usual routes to change, like a true choice of primary candidates is not ever going to effect change, repercussions less acceptable than allowing democracy within the Party are highly likely to occur sooner or later. They have already been occurring. Screwing someone who has generated as much enthusiasm and hope as has Sanders is a very bad move, IMO. Winning ala Charlie Sheen and his wife bad, only the DNC has no ex-wife nice enough to take care of your kids with another woman while you and your current wife "win."

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