Paul Krugman: the trouble with Bernie and Joe: Neither man seems ready for harsh political reality.

[pnwmom]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/opinion/sanders-biden-2020.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


Start with Biden, a convivial guy who has maintained good personal relations with Republicans. All indications are that he believes that these good personal relations will translate into an ability to make bipartisan deals on policy.

SNIP

Sanders, by contrast, doesn’t do bipartisanship. He doesn’t even do unipartisanship, refusing to call himself a Democrat even as he seeks the party’s nomination. But what Sanders appears to believe is that he can convince voters not just to support progressive policies, but to support sweeping policy changes that would try to fix things most people don’t consider broken.

SNIP

Democratic candidates in the next tier of the current race seem to get it. Warren’s proposals are very progressive, but they’re also incremental, and even her fairly radical ideas, like her proposed wealth tax, poll well. Anyone who watched Kamala Harris at Wednesday’s Barr hearing knows that she has no illusions about the state of partisanship.

Biden and Sanders, however, come across as romantics. Biden appears stuck in the past, when real bipartisanship sometimes happened. Sanders appears to live in an imaginary future, where a popular tidal wave washes away all political obstacles. Neither man seems ready for the tough fights that will follow even if he wins.

[TwilightZone]

1. "believes that these good personal relations will translate...into bipartisan deals"

I'm reasonably sure that Biden understands fully what to expect from Republicans should he win the presidency, particularly considering he spent eight years in the Obama administration, but these are the kinds of things that one says when running for president to appeal to voters.

[thesquanderer]

5. The only chance ANY Dem has of being truly effective...

...is if the House and Senate swing Dem.

If they do, Sanders and Biden could both be effective.

If they do not, neither Sanders nor Biden nor anyone else will be able to accomplish a whole lot.

[Drunken Irishman]

9. It depends on how pragmatic they are...

Obama's pragmatism is the only reason the healthcare fight didn't die on the Senate floor like so many other healthcare fights before him. Remember, Carter had both chambers when he tried to pass healthcare reform but butted heads with Teddy Kennedy and wouldn't compromise. Clinton, too, had both chambers when he pushed his initial stimulus spending that died in the House and then his healthcare reform bill that eventually died, too.

If Bernie's answer to having both the House and Senate is to say, "my way or the highway..." then I think he won't be effective. If it's Medicare for All or nothing - we'll get nothing because this congress isn't going to pass Medicare for All. Now if the pragmatic compromise is to offer a buy-in for Medicare for every American, is Bernie willing to just get that much as president? I think Joe absolutely would, since he's said as much. In that case, then that will define effectiveness.

I actually believe Bernie would compromise but to be an effective leader, he's going to have to or he won't get an inch on any of his policies ... even if the Democrats hold the House and Senate come 2021.

[BlueWI]

43. Heath care didn't die simply because we won a super majority in the Senate

And even so, it barely passed. I don't know how you can call that pragmatism.

Sanders and Biden are both veteran politicians. While I don't support either as my preferred choice this primary season, they are both experienced enough to know when to compromise. They've both had an intimate view of affairs of state for several decades.

[Fresh_Start]

21. Sanders still wouldn't be effective

because sanders won't compromise with even the democrats.

[AlexSFCA]

57. how many bills sponsored by BS actually pass?

[sacto95834]

25. Agreed...

We need a even bigger blue wave than we had in 2018....I'm talking once in a hundred years BLUE Tsunami that will leave the journalist speechless.

Can it be done? I will do my best to be part of that wave.

"I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore...."

[Demsrule86]

2. He was VP for eight years. He knows better...running for office

[dalton99a]

3. Kick

[brush]

4. IMO Krugman is off on this. Biden spent 8 years watching repugs obstruct O's...

initiatives and observing that O didn't get anything done until he gave up on seeking bipartisanship. Joe is a convivial, nice guy but he's no fool and no rookie. Matter of fact, he's the one who show O how to debate repugs when he dismantled and ridculed Ryan in the 2012 VP debate.

Sanders, OTOH, is the same Sanders from 2016, which didn't work well for him or the party.

[pnwmom]

6. Last year Biden accepted $200K for speaking for a Republican running for re-election to the House.

The Republican was an author of a bill to repeal the ACA. That's how far Biden takes his bi-partisanship.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/819291/joe-biden-got-200000-speech-that-reportedly-helped-elect-republican-house-member

Biden's remarks, subsequently used in the Republican's messaging, may have helped boost Upton to a narrow victory over his Democratic challenger, The New York Times reports.

In the speech, delivered for a $200,000 fee at Lake Michigan College, Biden described Upton — a long-serving congressman and coauthor of a 2017 bill to repeal the Affordable Care Act — as "one of the finest guys I've ever worked with." Biden, whose eldest son, Beau, died of brain cancer in 2015, also called Upton "the reason we're going to beat cancer," ostensibly for his work to fund cancer research. Both statements soon appeared in pro-Upton mailers, and Upton referred to the praise in a debate with his opponent, Matt Longjohn.

When asked about Biden's decision to effectively endorse a Republican candidate at the height of the midterms race, a spokesman told the Times that Biden "believes to his core that you can disagree politically on a lot and still work together in good faith on issues of common cause — like funding cancer research." Longjohn, meanwhile, said he was dismayed that Biden "[clapped] Mr. Upton on the back in an establishment political way" — and that when his campaign reached out to Biden for an explanation, "there was nothing but silence."

[brush]

7. Ok, let's see what happens. I'm still undecided but I think Biden is firmly in the Dem camp...

and no fool. He's the one who coined the quip on Ghouliani—"a noun, a verb and 9/11.

[sacto95834]

26. ...Biden accepted $200K for speaking....

I never understand why any politician with any aspirations for office does this. It never looks good and impossible to explain (in a good way).

Once they retire, they don't have to answer to anybody and how they make a living isn't really anybody's business.

[Bleacher Creature]

8. I agree with Krugman, but it's not fair to Biden to lump him in with Bernie (who's uniquely awful).

[Cha]

10. Thank You.

[SunSeeker]

14. +1

[comradebillyboy]

16. Indeed...

But let's nominate somebody under 60.

[Eliot Rosewater]

51. And has a record of working with NOBODY ever, almost ever. why do his supporters think that would

change in the WH?

[Bleacher Creature]

56. Here's what I don't understand.

Elizabeth Warren's voting record in the Senate is just as good as Bernie's. In fact, it's actually been to the LEFT of his the last couple of years.

Her campaign proposals are just as bold as Bernie's, but with actual details and (gasp!) numbers.

Warren seems well-liked by her colleagues and has an actual sense of humor (the video below is great). Bernie, not so much.

Warren has been a loyal Democrat from the moment she switched parties many years ago. Bernie, not so much.

I just don't understand why anyone could support Bernie over her. She has all the right positions, policies, and attitudes towards entrenched financial power, but with none of his otherwise terrible attributes.

And yes, I know that I've listed Harris as my top choice, and she's still hanging on with me, but Warren is making it RIDICULOUSLY hard to stay in the Harris camp!

[Eliot Rosewater]

61. And she gets things done. Or will if given time because people LIKE her and will work with her

Bernie says the same thing over and over, with little detail as to how to fix it.

Some people like that. Not me.

[PoliticAverse]

11. Krugman apparently thinks Biden was in a coma for the 8 years he was VP and learned nothing about...

Republicans.

[pnwmom]

13. It was just last year that Biden campaigned for a Republican for the House,

a Republican who had co-authored a bill to repeal the ACA. The Republican squeaked out a win and the Democrat was very disappointed with Biden. (See post 4, above.)

So I don't know how much Biden has learned, but not enough.

[OKNancy]

18. I read post 4.. Biden did not campaign for him

He gave a speech praising the Repub. for cancer research, something obviously close to his heart.
His words were used in printed material to boost the Republican. The article uses weasel words... says it MAY have helped the Republican. The article goes on to say that you can disagree politically and still find reasons to praise someone.

[treestar]

40. Exactly, "campaigning for him"

is a very unfair way to put what happened there.

[rusty fender]

12. Krugman hit the nail on the head

Biden’s remark, made a couple of years ago, that Dick Cheney is a decent man, shows how he is stuck in the fantasy of bi-partisanship.

[mn9driver]

15. Krugman doesn't acknowledge that a Democratic President and House will be able to do nothing.

No matter what Democrat is in the Oval Office. Pick any Democratic President you want. Anyone. Without the Senate, nothing will happen.

[marylandblue]

17. So whats the point of attacking only Trump and calling for unity?

[honest.abe]

19. If anyone knows this its Biden.

After decades in a paralyzed Congress and 8 years as VP watching the GOP stonewall everything President Obama tried to do, Joe knows exactly what to expect.

In fact he should run on that message.. "I know what doesn't work so I wont waste time trying to do it".

[Rhiannon12866]

20. Good point!

He had a front row seat to the obstruction that Obama faced. He won't forget that lesson easily.

[marylandblue]

35. Maybe he should... but so far, he isn't.

I wouldn't assume he knows something just because you think he should know it.

[bloom]

22. I often appreciate Krugman's POV

And I agree with him here, too.

[dalton99a]

24. He spoke the painful truth

[Renew Deal]

23. Truth! n/t

[Kurt V.]

27. Neither will be our nominee. take it to the bank.

[still_one]

32. in what basis do you calculate that? It is simply your opinion which is as good or bad as anyone

elses

[Kurt V.]

36. pretty much, yes.

[still_one]

38. ..................................................................

[EveHammond13]

28. Come on, man!

[guillaumeb]

29. Biden was the VP for 8 years.

He knows what the GOP is.

[Otto Lidenbrock]

30. The problems are as follows IMO

If Bernie gets elected he will disappoint his supporters (especially the younger ones) because his agenda even with a democratic congress will not be rolled out swiftly in the precise way they expect. You don't get perfect in DC.

If Biden gets elected, he will have fulfilled the goal voters had for casting a ballot for him - "beating Trump". Then what? Policy wise he might be the most uninspiring POTUS of the leading names in the field. Of course that's without really knowing what his policy plans are at this point in time one week after announcing, we can only assume from his record.

[tonedevil]

34. Solid analysis ... /nt

[treestar]

41. the policy is to return things to normal

that is not going to happen easily and overnight.

It is not a good idea to go on about inspiration and policies. That led to the Dotard in the WH and now we are years from being able to demand anything. If the ACA is not good enough, all we can do is hang onto it - we are not going to get anything more for at least a couple more terms, thanks to letting the Dotard slide into the WH and the Republicans have the House for 4 terms and still letting them have the Senate.

[BlueWI]

45. What does normal mean?

And how will normal help with the big issues of today - reforming Obamacare or Medicare for all, climate action, addressing wealth inequality, infrastructure, etc.?

Reducing corporate influence over politics?

The country needs progress, not just normalcy. We also need a president with a clear domestic agenda. We haven't had that since Obama's first term

[treestar]

46. not having a President that lies all the time

messes with things, like doing the Muslim ban, ending up in the courts, ranting about the wall, appointment incompetent people to lead departments which could now be messes in ways we don't even know about. Not appointment ambassadors and other diplomats. Making a hash of our foreign policy with his stupidity. Withdrawing us from how many international agreements and treaties and what that led to. Imposing tariffs and the mess that caused. Normal is getting back onto the treaties, fixing the damage by appointing competent people who can do it. Having a secure election system that foreign nations can't hack. Doing things to make the ACA work, that is, discontinuing what Dotard has used his executive powers to hamper it.

[BlueWI]

50. These would be priorities for any Democratic president.

Warren, Inslee, Harris, etc. would all seek similar actions.

What about domestic priorities, climate change, race relations? We have candidates with clear records and accomplishments on all of these issues, including Inslee, who has served with distinction in Congress and as a governor. We shouldn't sell ourselves short by not considering all of the excellent candidate.

[treestar]

54. The dotard has messed with all that too

He took us out of the climate change agreement. All the candidates would be fine, but they'd probably be asking Biden for advice, especially if they have not been to Washington before or have been there a short time. The Orange Toxin made race relations and all domestic issues worse.

[BlueWI]

58. Actually, Biden should be asking other candidates for advice.

How to stand up for consumer protection rather than consulting with telecom interests first (Warren).

How to connect with young voters and use social media effectively (Sanders).

How to balance comity and principled stands on the most difficult issues to develop a clear legislative agenda (Inslee).

How to prioritize action against mass incarceration rather than continue drug war policies that disproportionately harm communities of color (Booker).

How to question opposition witnesses thoughtfully and fearlessly to generate accountability during a hearing (Harris).

Of course, I will support Biden or any candidate who wins the nomination. His experience in the White House shouldn't be minimized, but it should be weighed alongside the strengths of other candidates. IMO, Biden was recruited the Obama ticket as a way to balance the unfamiliarity of Obama and increase the gravitas. But even the Obama administration had two good legislative years, with the assistance of a supermajority that we all worked to earn, followed by six years of gridlock and electoral losses at all levels. How did Biden's presence help then with congressional relations? And I still have heard little about Biden's individual accomplishments as a senator that would raise him above the stellar records that other candidates have attained.

Time, issues, and changes are moving faster than we tend to think. I have heard Biden described as a transitional, possibly one term president. Do we have four years to simply be in transition, with the gravity of issues we face? On climate alone, that would leave us in 2024 with 8 years maximum to head off the worst effects of the gravest environmental crisis we have faced.

Another thing Biden can learn from Inslee: a sense of urgency given the weight of the issues we face.

[marylandblue]

59. +1 Life does not give you "transition periods."

[treestar]

60. As to how to get the government back together

none of them know as much, and consumer protections and mass incarceration and all that are not going to see any progress unless we get the government back, and Biden is not ignorant on those issues.

[Cosmocat]

44. Yeah

Biden is a "clean up after the tsunami of shit" candidate - reset our place in the world, fix the federal government, do whatever the dems can get through congress.

Bernie is no fool - he knows darn well he won't be able to do 80% of what he runs on.

I get it, simplicity in message with a country that is stupid as shit, but it really isn't honest.

[still_one]

31. Don't agree with Krugman's characterization of either one.

[Kablooie]

33. That's what I feel. We need a fighter who's willing to hit hard.

Obama tried playing nice at first and all it got him was derision.

The conservatives are going to try hard to destroy any Democratic president and the only way forward is to be ready to fight back.
And remember, Trump will not disappear. He will remain fighting to regain the spotlight and it's going to be hard to keep him from grabbing all the attention and controlling the narrative. (I know many expect him to be in prison but I don't. He's been expert at avoiding of prison his whole life and I expect him to continue to be good at it.)

[Cha]

37. Biden actually hit the Psycho really hard.. right out of the gate..

'We Are Living Through a Battle for the Soul of This Nation'

August 27, 2017

snip//

The giant forward steps we have taken in recent years on civil liberties and civil rights and human rights are being met by a ferocious pushback from the oldest and darkest forces in America. Are we really surprised they rose up? Are we really surprised they lashed back? Did we really think they would be extinguished with a whimper rather than a fight?

More~
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/joe-biden-after-charlottesville/538128/

[ucrdem]

47. Yes -- Thanks for posting that!

He didn't waste any time and went right for the bullseye!

[Cha]

48. Right for the

jugular.. so to speak.

You're Welcome, urc!

[ucrdem]

49. Hopefully Krugman reads DU and will catch the speech he apparently missed

[treestar]

42. What is this fighting?

The only place to "fight" is to win the election. After that, if the Senate is still R, nothing is happening no matter what a "fighter" the person is.

[Stuart G]

39. Thank You for posting..k and r. no text

[Hortensis]

52. Give Biden the Democratic Congress this

national emergency desperately needs, and executive and legislative branches will be as strongly united in goals as Democrats are right now. Which is very. Even Sanders votes with our caucus when the cameras aren’t on him because that’s how he gets re-elected.

Do the same for Sanders, though, and he’ll use his new power to fight what should be an allied Democratic congress. Because he believes what this nation really needs is a left-wing Democratic socialist revolution that will seize ownership of many private functions, and trying to take the nation that way would create enormous, permanent conflict between the branches. And he’s proven he is willing to lose everything in trying.

This is the huge flaw in Krugman’s comparison, one big enough to advance united, enlightened progressive government through, capable of doing great things together, or failed opportunity, and possibly continued downward national spiral.

[Ohiogal]

53. Krugman

hits the nail on the head with this piece.

[Hortensis]

55. He forgot to mention that Biden,

very far from leading a coddled existence, has intensive experience in trying to govern with an intensely corrupted, subverted republican party controlling Congress and dragging our democracy towards ruin.

Romantic viewpoint, my ass. Soul searing more like.