Hickenlooper takes aim at socialist agenda in New Hampshire appearance

[TexasTowelie]

GOFFSTOWN -- While former Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper speaks often about his disdain for negative attacks on his opponents, the Rocky Mountain governor turned Democratic presidential candidate laid out an economic platform on Friday that seemed to take direct aim at fellow 2020 contender Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) for his democratic socialist agenda.

While Sanders was not name-checked in the prepared remarks Hickenlooper delivered while announcing a six point economic development plan at St. Anselm College, the two-term governor launched multiple attacks on socialism, branding the idea “no better today than it was 100 years ago” and invoking the dictatorship of the Soviet Union.

“You have to hand it to the GOP for achieving the near-impossible,” said Hickenlooper. “Just years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, their greedy mismanagement has revived the lure of socialism for a whole generation of Americans. Who would have imagined the Koch Brothers and Donald Trump could help resuscitate the discredited ideas of Karl Marx and Joseph Stalin?”

The apparent references to Sanders didn’t stop there, with Hickelooper going on to criticize elected officials in Washington who would “demonize the private sector to score political points,” and branding universal healthcare and guaranteed jobs, two policies supported by Sanders, as hazardous to the American people.

Read more: https://www.unionleader.com/news/politics/hickenlooper-takes-aim-at-socialist-agenda-in-nh-appearance/article_18afc2e7-d06e-5015-96bb-d401c1217785.html?block_id=695277

[guillaumeb]

1. An interesting way to frame himself.

[uawchild]

2. We don't need no

Socialist public schools.
Socialist Interstate Highway System.
Socialist Food and Drug Administration.
Socialist Environmental Protection Agency,
Socialist Police forces.
Socialist Fire Departments.
Socialist NASA
Socialist Military for that matter lol

And we certainly don't need no socialist health care, eh?

“You have to hand it to the GOP for achieving the near-impossible,” said Hickenlooper. “Just years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, their greedy mismanagement has revived the lure of socialism for a whole generation of Americans. Who would have imagined the Koch Brothers and Donald Trump could help resuscitate the discredited ideas of Karl Marx and Joseph Stalin?”

Yeah, way to conflate socialism and totalitarianism, Hickenlooper. Thanks.

[NYMinute]

14. Socialism leads to totalitarianism

When the government controls all the resources in addition to police/military powers, it makes everyone poor.

I have been the Eastern European countries before and after the liberation and people there are more prosperous and happier.

[uawchild]

18. And Capitalism led to 250 years of slavery in the USA

Just goes to show totalitarians can go and ruin many economic systems, eh?

A capitalist slave auction, and not a socialist in sight...

[NYMinute]

19. Capitalism didn't "cause" slavery

That is a strawman argument.

We have capitalism now in a vast majority of the countries and no slavery -- which disproves your point.

[uawchild]

20. Socialism didn't "cause" Totalitarianism

That is a strawman argument.

We have socialism now in a vast majority of the countries and no totalitarianism -- which disproves your point.

Virtual every country in the world now has a mix of capitalist market economies and socialist institutions. There is no purely capitalist or purely socialist country left anywhere.

Everyone, absolutely everyone knows this is true.

Boom. Your original stawman argument has been destroyed.



thanks for this gif, by the way. It's the one you used yourself. lol

[NYMinute]

21. Socialism cannot be maintained without totalitarianism

Socialism creates scarcity of food and other items due to inefficiencies and the only way to keep people from revolting is by brutally oppressing them.

[uawchild]

23. Tell Sweden that.

lol

again... BOOM!



lol this is too easy... I am starting to feel bad about winning so easily... please, have your last word in peace.

Thanks for the discussion.

[NYMinute]

26. Sweden is not socialist

It is a capitalistic country with a free market economy.

Nordic countries have been run by "Social Democrats" who are not Socialists. It is often used as a fig leaf when people cannot defend socialism.

Look! Sweden. Look! Denmark.

[johannsyah]

30. I've been in Helsinki for several years

and I tell you Finland is not socialist for sure

[NYMinute]

31. The home of Nokia

[Humanist_Activist]

35. In that case, neither can Capitalism

Capitalism creates scarcity of food and other resources due to inefficiencies in private distribution combined with the fact that capitalism is structured to make sure most resources are always in the hands of a minority. The only way to keep people from revolting is by brutally oppressing them.

Think of the ideas of the Banana republic, the various right wing and fascist governments of South America, Asia, Europe, and Africa, they have killed and oppressed millions to maintain capital and the class structure it fosters. Not to mention our own past, its only a few days past May 1st, you should probably learn more about labor history in the United States before spouting about how Socialism is the only one that creates totalitarianism.

What I find fascinating is why capitalists are so frightened of the idea of workers have just slightly more democratic control over their workplaces. They will shut down the factories rather than sell them to workers, fire employees without any restitution, even escalate to murder to prevent such things from happening. Actions that are very out of proportion for much of what is proposed.

[NYMinute]

41. No capitalist is frightened of workers having

control over workplaces.

Capitalism creates winners and losers but never a totalitarian regime like socialism does. There are banana republics which have kleptocracies but they are not true capitalism.

Capitalism only means private control of a majority of the nation's resources and enterprise. In a capitalistic country, about 70-80% of the resources are in private hands whilst in a socialist country nary 10-15% are.

[Humanist_Activist]

42. LOL, now I know you aren't serious...

Have you worked for any non-union employers in the United States? They aren't frightened, are you kidding? Hell, I've worked at places that had rules so strict that if they knew my BIL was a Union member, they would never had hired me. You breath "organize" and they fire you.

In other countries you had companies such as Coca-Cola hiring hit squads to kill trade union leaders. Hell, the Pinkertons did the same in the United States a century ago on behalf of the Coal, Oil and Railroad industries.

"Capitalism creates winners and losers but never a totalitarian regime like socialism does." I'm going to call bullshit on that, Capitalism requires a large underclass to support a minority Capitalist class who end up owning a large percentage if not majority of assets and means of production in the world. The thing is that we live in a Global capitalistic society, not one isolated by single nation states. Most of the "developed" nations of the world prop up their generous welfare states and are able to keep the veneer of Democracy going by aiding oppressive regimes in the rest of the world so that the majority can support this minority. That is the point of Neo-liberal free trade, after all.

Also, your last two sentences are a mark against Capitalism, not for it, just an FYI.

[NYMinute]

44. lol

"Hit squads"

[Humanist_Activist]

45. I didn't know the aiding and abetting of murder of trade unionists is funny to you.

I find it fascinating that you are so concerned about human rights in one context, when state actors are involved, but not when private actors are involved.

[NYMinute]

46. I just found it stretching the limits of fantasy

to think that a NYSE corporation would hire "hit squads". That would make a great John Grisham novel.

[Humanist_Activist]

47. Did you follow the link? Seriously, this is something that has been known since the 1990s...

and its not like they were the first, nor will they be the last corporation to participate or fund activities like this.

[PETRUS]

22. That poster is also wrong about the absence of slavery in the global (capitalist) economy today. nt

[NYMinute]

28. Today's trafficking and slavery

are actually rampant in residents of formerly socialist Eastern European countries where people have been left destitute by decades of socialism.

It is astonishing to see atrocities from socialism being defended on an American discussion board by people who have never been beyond the iron curtain and seen it first hand.

[Humanist_Activist]

36. Uhm, they haven't been communist for nearly a generation, shouldn't Capitalism...

have rescued them from that destitution by now?

I find this fascinating, do you thing the Soviet model is the only model for Socialism to exist?

Also, there is a point with Free-Enterprise and Free Trade zones that are used in many countries to exempt mostly foreign companies from local labor regulations. Many of the people working in said factories are living at near slave conditions, sometimes not being free to leave the compounds they live in, even signing contracts forbidding them from having children or a life, etc. But let me guess, that's not "real capitalism" is it?

[NYMinute]

40. None of the socialist models have worked

Which ones have worked? (And don't give me Nordic countries -- they are NOT socialist)

Cuba? Venezuela? China? Vietnam? Laos? North Korea? Yemen?

India was on the ropes in 1992 because of socialist policies of Nehru when the economy by liberated under pressure from IMF and WB. Since 1992, India has grown to one of the largest economies in the world and has prospered immensely.

Same story in China.

You are claiming the "FTZ"s are near-slavery. Can you give me ONE example of where people are forced to work there against their will?

[Humanist_Activist]

43. Seriously?

Both India and China still have massive poverty issues, China isn't liberalizing politically and is even suppressing labor organizing, which is ironic for an ostensibly Communist regime. Both nations have huge populations and are able to leverage their size to have more protectionist policies than most other developing nations, that's what's causing them to "prosper" more.

As far as FTZs and sweatshop, forced labor, well you apparently haven't been paying attention to the new since 1992, damn.

https://www.postguam.com/news/local/chinese-workers-allege-forced-labor/article_c1ecafa6-470a-11e9-ba11-bbb7e6ccb84d.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3339578/Crammed-squalid-factories-produce-clothes-West-just-20p-day-children-forced-work-horrific-unregulated-workshops-Bangladesh.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/03/business/worldbusiness/03clothing.html

https://www.fastcompany.com/90279693/did-a-slave-make-your-sneakers-the-answer-is-probably

[Maven]

3. An outdated, losing message.

Why is he running again?

[uawchild]

5. He's an Incrementalist. (and I was too flippant)

Last edited Sat May 4, 2019, 05:52 PM - Edit history (1)

His heart is in the right place but he wants to improve things but do so slowly, a little bit at a time, cost effectively, working within the system.

I am not kidding, he really comes across as a compassionate man, that showed in his CNN town hall. But he seems to be lacking a sense of urgency.

Growing up in the affluent "Mainline Suburbs" of Philadelphia might tend to do that to you.

EDITTED NOTE: While I do feel Hickenlooper is an incrementalist whose pace of change is slower than I personally prefer, I must apologize for the dismissive and flippant tone I used conveying this in the above text. But, please don't think I was mocking him about being a compassionate person, he really truly seems to be, I was touched by his personal physical response to some questions at his CNN town-hall.

As far as policies go, his personal best is on gun control. He is in favor of universal background checks. banning high capacity magazines, but allowing assault weapon sales, with maybe an age restriction added.

He is on the fence in regards to the environment in a similar manner. He wants to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but is favorable to the gas and oil industries including fracking. He "tentatively" supports the new green deal, but is unclear on what tentatively actually means.

On trade, he is a free trade globalist supporting both NAFTA and the TPP.

On Health care he is especially vague having said "there were “many different ways to cut the pie and work on the issue” and that intraparty arguments over the specifics were counterproductive."

So, yeah, he's a nice guy, doesn't want to shake things up too much, but thinks some minor improvements can be made on these issues.

[pangaia]

7. "Growing up in the affluent "Mainline Suburbs" of Philadelphia might tend to do that to you. "

Tell me.........

[ehrnst]

12. You mean doing it right as opposed to using duck tape and paint to make it look

like it's done before the next election cycle?

[uawchild]

13. Let's discuss your point

Warren disagrees to a significant degree with many of the Hickenlooper positions, doesn't she?

Do you think she is rushing too fast on healthcare for instance?

I might be wrong, but Warren seems to be putting forth new and viable proposals much faster and energetically than Hickenlooper.

Am I wrong in thinking Warren is addressing gun control and climate change more urgently than Hickenlooper?

Thanks for raising this point.

[ehrnst]

16. I'm addressing the dismissal of doing things right, as opposed to doing them quick and dirty

in order to get them in before the next re-election.

Is that clearer?

[uawchild]

24. I re-read my post that you responded to and see you have a good point

I do sound too dismissive in the first bit, I can see that now.

I laid it on too thick about him being an incrementalist. I still found my review of his positions fair, but my tone was definitely off at the start of that.

I'll make a comment about that in the original post.

Thanks for helping me to see my error.

[ehrnst]

25. That's a fair and civil response.

[NYMinute]

15. or smoke and mirrors nt

[femmedem]

37. "He wants to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but is favorable to the gas and oil industries..."

Incrementalism on this issue is another form of climate change denial.

[earthshine]

9. Hick is now out for me.

I'm still an "undecided" on whom I want to win.

But, Hickenlooper has just joined Gillibrand and Gabbard as a definite no.

An intelligent guy, it's a shame he speaks of no differences or nuance between modern-day Democratic Socialism and old-Soviet Socialism.

So much of this is Bernie's fault. He did well when he accurately labelled himself as an "FDR Democrat." Instead of just fighting on policy, he has the burden of fighting peoples' notions of socialism. <sigh>

[brooklynite]

17. You're free to try and redefine Socialism...

The average voter won’t be.

[Kurt V.]

29. this is not correct on two fronts. what the average voter knows about socialism, you could write

on a postage stamp. and for many younger Americans the word has already been redefined.

[brooklynite]

34. Many younger Americans don't vote.

[doompatrol39]

4. I look forward to all the tsk-tsking folks on here..

...indignant that a Democrat is attacking other Democrats and their positions rather than Trump, who is the real enemy.

[pangaia]

6. " "no better today than it was 100 years ago" and invoking the dictatorship of the Soviet Union. "

karl Marx, STALIN??

" universal healthcare and guaranteed jobs,".....are....."hazardous to the American people. " HUH !!!!!!!


This is a ... a... DEMOCRAT? Saying this shit???

What the fuck is the matter with this guy??

[Celerity]

8. +10000

[Sapient Donkey]

33. Right. Seems really weird for a democrat to be going down that route

Relating that stuff to the soviet union is a very republican thing to do. He doesn't even sound like a centrist democrat or even a conservative democrat, he sounds more like a straight up Trumpcultist republican.

[msongs]

11. one has to be quite uninformed to say that anything soviet is actual socialism. nt

[Kurt V.]

27. Discredited ideas of Karl Marx? he was right about some things, he was wrong about some things.

Hume or Locke got some things wrong too. this guy never read Marx

[Autumn]

39. This is what happens when you drink fracking fluid.

[Sapient Donkey]

32. This seems fall into the "any government programs I don't support are socialism" category

I find the "kill capitalism" and the "stop socialism" arguments annoying and silly at the same time. If bernie sanders or anyone starts talking about nationalizing industries and ending the private ownership of property, that is when I will start worrying about socialism. Greasing the wheels, fine tuning, and adding extra protections for those within our capitalist economy should not be considered socialism. That's probably the only things that will keep our capitalist market economy from imploding in on itself. Maybe we need to work on a more commonly understood definition of socialism. But that difference in definition isn't the issue here, as he directly made reference to the soviet union. Silly guy.

Also, the far-left legit (and trendy wanna be) socialist/communists who like to talk about all the evils of capitalism and how it needs to be crushed. You should also reflect on the past attempts at whatever it is you're envision. And no, I don't think Sweden or any other nordic country can fairly be used as an example if you're calling for the downfall of capitalism. Try to think some good examples of what we should strive for. If they just haven't implemented then by all means explain your version and why it's better and how it will work. Just please don't be one of those people singing praises about the Soviet utopia. In other words, don't be this guy http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/60/063.html (entertaining read, btw)

[crazytown]

38. STALIN?

When you hear someone talking about Stalin in political messaging, you know they rather like RW talking points.

Hickenlooper should go back to drinking fracking fluid.

A bit harsh, but the more I see of this guy, the less I like him.

[mcar]

48. K&R