I'm Sick of Democrats Trying to Destroy Democrats

[Vidal]

This is a forum for Democrats to support Democrats.

We're starting to see people on this form attack Democrats.

They are expressing Republican talking points.

This is what Sanders did to Clinton in 2016. He attacked Clinton during primaries and then Trump used the same talking points during the general election.

What I want to see is people focused on explaining WHY they support their favored candidate.

Can we do that?

[we can do it]

1. Me too.

[Submariner]

2. Yeah...we notice a lot of trolls with low post counts come to DU and

stir the pot, then disappear for a year or two until the next election cycle, only to reappear to stir the pot again. It sucks.

[DownriverDem]

7. If you can identify them

they can be reported.

[Ford_Prefect]

15. It helps if you can text in Russian, or Kochian Corporatese.

[MineralMan]

3. I agree 100%

It's getting old while it's still new. Same strategies and sources we saw the last time we went through a Presidential primary race.

I had hoped for better this time.

[DownriverDem]

6. Me too

repubs must love what they are seeing. Wake up attackers.

[LibFarmer]

4. Excellent post nt

[DemocracyMouse]

23. Here's what matters: Republicans have been corrupted. Trump's father and grandfather were...

corrupt German immigrants bringing with them the technique of scapegoating any other immigrants, even those who have been in the USA since they came here from Asia thousands of years ago.

All Democrats are angels next to this crime family.

Can we stop stirring the pot? We have a vicious criminal in the White House who needs to go to jail.

[DownriverDem]

5. For sure

I do not attack other Dem candidates. Attackers need to wake up. All that matters is that we have a candidate that can beat trump and help other Dems win their elections too. The country is not far left. Center left is how we will win. So nothing in Biden's past compares with trump. Foreign leaders begged him to run. He can beat trump. He won't take trump's crap. trump does not want to run against Biden. trump needs Pennsylvania. Biden can win Pennsylvania. He was born and raised in Pennsylvania. Biden has a close relationship with blue collar workers. They will support him because they know how much trump has screwed him. I would love to see a Biden/Harris ticket. We have never had a woman VP. She would then be aligned to be President. Many Americans are way behind when it comes to women leaders.

[Funtatlaguy]

8. This forum should be attack free.

If someone wants to post a “compare and contrast” of specific policies of candidates, that’s ok.
But, any type of vague or blatant personal attacks or smears should be deleted.

[brooklynite]

14. And there's the rub...

...some people interpret ANY negative story as "bashing" / "assassination" / a "hit job" etc.

[marybourg]

28. Why do need to have ANY negative stories?

[brooklynite]

31. Because we live in the real world where they exist.

There will be critical stories and disputes between candidates. I'd rather know about them now, because they'll come up again later.

If you need a safe bubble, we have those pro-candidate forums in "Democrats 2020". I don't visit them.

[Boomer]

32. Because candidates aren't perfect

Criticism and vigorous debate are not the same as attacks or tearing someone down.

If someone is going to represent the Democratic party in a race for the presidency, I want to know exactly who I'm voting for, good AND bad. Just because I don't like some aspects of a candidates doesn't mean I won't vote for them.

Primary debates are where we shake it all out and make some hard choices. Avoiding a candidate's weaknesses is not doing them or us any favors.

[marybourg]

35. Where is the line between pointing out a

rival candidate’s weaknesses and a smear campaign?

[brooklynite]

37. Apparently wherever the candidate's supporters draw it...

If a mean story about your preferred candidate makes you get upset, perhaps you should revisit why you support that candidate.

[lunatica]

41. If it's a lie be assured the line you speak of is right there

Is it the truth or a smear? Most of the time you can tell the difference.

[ehrnst]

74. Tone, using facts/fiction, trying to evoke an emotional response, rather than a discussion.

Namecalling, broad sweeping personal shivs like "this candidate serves Wall Street, not working people."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

76. I call it a smear when they dig up something from a candidate's remote past,

or something bad an adult relative or friend may have done, with which the candidate him/herself was not involved. Something that happened many years ago is significant only if it's part of or evidence of a continuing pattern (or if it was an actual crime). A vote on a bill in 1980 is notable only if the candidate continued to vote the same way or support the same policies in ensuing years, especially the recent past. Bad behavior by an adult child or sibling or even a spouse is relevant only if the candidate was involved in, supported, or tried to cover up the behavior. Allegations of sexual misconduct need to be given a pretty hard look, too, in light of evidence of recent attempts at ratfucking by Jacob Wohl and others.

[ehrnst]

73. That's something that Trump supporters demand, and it's not realistic. (nt)

[Honeycombe8]

66. Some people call a critical post an attack.

I HAVE seen a couple of blatant attacks. But they didn't seem obvious to other posters, who were responding and jumping on board or engaging in responses. Sigh.

[saidsimplesimon]

9. Disagree

with the attempt to paint those who challenge Biden as "expressing Repub... talking point". I do agree that we should focus on building up support for the candidate we want to run in the General. imo

[marehare]

10. Democrats attacking other Democrats

You need to really inform Bernie's campaign and supporters as they're the ones attacking all the other candidates. This is another reason Bernie's poll numbers are sinking. He lies like trump.

[HopeAgain]

11. And yet you attacked a Democrat...

[brooklynite]

12. Nope...

Criticism of policy positions and/or political strategies are perfectly in order.

[loyalsister]

22. Agreed

It is a competition after all. Campaigns are a vetting process and it makes sense to be thorough. It was our good fortune that Obama came along and eclipsed John Edwards in 2008.
Thinking and talking about what we like and don't like about candidates is what elections are about.
There's no need to be conspiratorial or assume malicious motives.

[Boomer]

34. +100

I expect vigorous debate and disagreement when we're evaluating candidates. I'm not going to coddle them to meet some unrealistic standard of party unity.

I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I can criticize a candidate and still vote for them in the national election. It's not an either/or proposition.

[Chakaconcarne]

13. IT SHOULD BE TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE HERE ON DU... PERIOD!

and (IMO) if you run across anyone that does this, it should be considered as an attack, they should be considered opponents or trolls and called out in the first reply. Better yet, moderators should be warning them and banning them... Heavy handed, maybe?

Until we do this, we are setting ourselves up for division. These attacks can be subtle and they can be coordinated and if you haven't been around long enough to see how this works, it might actually be effective.

[MrsCoffee]

53. There are no moderators.

There is only the jury and appeal system.

If you get a post hidden, you get a warning in your inbox letting you know where you stand.

[BeyondGeography]

16. It's human nature and good practice

They’re competing for a shot at the most powerful position on earth and they’re going to be attacked in the GE anyway.

[yaesu]

17. Destroying is a little bit much. but personal attacks shouldn't be a thing here but other than

concern trolling about candidates I really haven't seen that many "attacks". I can't ever remember Bernie attacking HRC nor HRC attacking him during the election. They stated policy differences, had disagreements but....

[crazytown]

18. I'm not sure pronoucing Biden is crushing it,

game over, is the way to do that.

I am certain if those who prefer the front runner say, no line else can win, and xxxxx will lose, that is an attack on fellow Democrats. It is saying, in not so many words you can help Trump win if you don’t wake up to yourselves.

[dogman]

19. As you attack Senator Sanders.

And then it will be his fault that you pissed off his supporters again.

[Vidal]

20. Nope

Not an attack on Sanders.

If I had wanted to attack Sanders I would have had a much longer list of things he did in 2016 AND he is doing again now.

In fact, it's fair game to criticize any Democrat for their current policy positions and proposals.

It takes discernment to distinguish between attack and fair discussion of policy differences.

[dogman]

21. He is the only one you mentioned by name.

Get over 2016 or relive it if you wish.

[yardwork]

24. I'm sick of hearing people threaten not to vote Democratic because their feelings are hurt.

Anybody who acts that way needs to grow up. Do African Americans stay home when there isn't a black person on the ballot? How many times have female Democrats voted for the male nominee? Do you hear me whining when the nominee isn't gay?

This isn't high school.

[dogman]

43. I never wrote anything about not voting.

And yes, African-Americans turn out in higher numbers for a black person, look at Obama for instance. That is normal human behavior, not just high school. You don't gain votes by insulting voters, common sense.

[lillypaddle]

36. Sanders isn't a democrat. nt

[dogman]

39. You are wrong.

[lillypaddle]

48. Has he already switched over?

I didn't know that.

[dogman]

49. As a presidential candidate, yes.

Those are the rules.

[lillypaddle]

50. I will never consider him a democrat

He is only when it is convenient for him. And from the things he says, he doesn't give a damn about the Democratic Party. He's a opportunist, just like someone else we all know.

[dogman]

51. He is what Democrats used to be.

A champion for the people. The opportunists are the ones who cash in with the wealthy over the people. Those are the Democrats who have rejected the people for money.

[lillypaddle]

54. um, no

I'm 71 and BS is no Lyndon Johnson or Jack Kennedy - nor is he an Obama. I'm through with this discussion.

[Metalmom]

61. From the DU terms of service

Don't bash Democratic public figures
Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures. Do not post anything that could be construed as bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for any Democratic general election candidate, and do not compare any Democratic general election candidate unfavorably to their general election opponent(s).
Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).


I've noticed a lot of people here ignore this and get away with it.

[lillypaddle]

62. Saying he isn't a Dem is bashing him?

What happens when he switches back then? You know, like last time when he ran and lost the primary? And then switched back?

[Metalmom]

63. He has always been an Independent in the state of VT as far as I know

He runs as a Democrat in the national election for President. I'd much rather him run as a Democrat than run as an Independent nationally and end up splitting the D vote.

[lillypaddle]

64. True; however

he'd have a snowballs chance in hell winning as a third party. So as I said before, he is an opportunist. You may call that bashing, I call it reality. And hey, welcome to DU.

[Metalmom]

69. And another reality is

If he ran as an Independent the Democratic nominee would be a sure loss also. So there is that.

[ehrnst]

75. Why do you say that? (nt)

[Metalmom]

79. because

when there is a 3rd party running it always splits off the vote from the party it most closely resembles. Too many people think (wrongly) that their 3rd party vote will count for something when all it does is hand victory to the party they don't want.

[ehrnst]

81. Why do you think the Democratic candiate would lose if Bernie ran as an independent?

Clinton won when Ross Perot ran.

Not that Bernie ever would run for POTUS as an independent - he's said that he needs the money and the media that comes with being a major party candidate.

[Metalmom]

83. You're right

We don't need any supporters of Bernie Sanders. We don't need them to win this next election. We as a party should shun them.
You're right. I'm wrong. You win.

[ehrnst]

85. Are you saying that Sanders supporters here on DU aren't Democrats?

[ehrnst]

68. You think pointing that he's not a Democrat is an "attack?"

Why do you think that's something that shouldn't be allowed on DU? It's simply stating a fact.

People say things factual things about candidates in the Democratic primary - that's what this forum is for.

One can simply ignore that which they don't like to hear. You'll learn to do that as you are more experienced here.

[Metalmom]

70. He is a Democrat

He is running in the Democratic primary.

Going to church every Sunday no more make a you a Christian than sitting in a garage makes you a car.



As for ignoring what one doesn't like to hear, advice is always best when one follows their own advice first.

[ehrnst]

71. No, he is an Independent Senator, and is only a Democrat when campaigning in a primary

He votes and represents VT as an Independent, not a Democrat. When he is doing the job of legislating, he is not a Democrat.

So, he's only a Democrat when campaigning, while on the campaign, and not while he's doing his job as a career politician.

So in your analogy,

Going to church every Sunday no more make a you a Christian than sitting in a garage makes you a car.

Are you saying that Sanders isn't a Democrat because he "goes to church" (registers as a Democratic candidate) every primary campaign he enters, but that doesn't necessarily make him a "Christian?" (Democrat) After all, he does this in every Senate primary he's won, and then turns down the nomination to run as an Independent.

When Sanders announced his run for Senate in 2006, the party worked to clear the field for him. And both in 2006 and in his 2012 re-election campaign, Sanders won the Democratic primary before rejecting the nomination and running as an independent.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/bernie-sanders-faces-feisty-democratic-challenger-n780861

But you still haven't demonstrated why you think that talking about Sanders not being a Democratic Senator "isn't allowed." People are indeed talking about it here, aren't they?

Like I said, this is the place where candidates are discussed. And if you don't like certain aspects of a candidate being discussed on DU, the "ignore" tool would be a good thing for you to use.

[lillypaddle]

72. Nice response

[Metalmom]

78. Bernie is a Democrat

You didn't understand my Christian/church analogy, so I'll try to explain it in a different way.

Kim Davis was a registered Democrat, but her views on homosexuality and gay marriage are not the views of the Democratic party. I have a suspicion many of her Ideals are in contrast with Democratic party views.

Bernie Sanders policy proposals are very much the views of the Democratic party. Many if not most are a part of the Democratic party platform.

I don't care what someone calls themselves, their actions are what counts.

Bernie Sanders is a Democrat.

I choose to welcome him and his supporters, as they will make us stronger in the fight against Republicans. I see no use in continuing with sour grapes that weakens our party.

Maybe you should heed your own advice, if you don't like what I have to say you can always put me on ignore so it no longer bothers you.

[ehrnst]

84. It seems I offended you with that correction.

However, he is not a Democratic Senator. He is an independent Senator. He is only a Democrat when campaigning for POTUS, unless something has changed since yesterday. He has never voted on legislation as a Democrat. He is permitted to caucus with Democrats, a privilege graciously extended to him by the Democratic Party.



https://www.sanders.senate.gov/

Serving as a Senator and being a POTUS candidate are two separate things,

I hope that clarifies things. If you still don't believe me, I suggest you call Bernie Sanders office, and ask a staffer.

I don't care what someone calls themselves, their actions are what counts,

Bernie Sanders is a Democrat.

You can make up any definition for a word that you want, I suppose, but that doesn't mean that anyone else will understand or honor your riff on it. Pro-forced birthers call fetuses unborn children, but it doesn't make them children, any more than it makes them unborn teenagers or unborn senior citizens. Words have meanings, and if you want to be understood and taken seriously, then you need to acknowledge that you won't be understood when you try use it in a way the majority of the people you are talking to understand it to mean. You'll be corrected a lot.

Democrat- with a capital D, is a political party, and on Democratic Underground, Democrat means identifying as a Democrat. Bernie Sanders does not identify as a Democrat except when he runs in a primary. Now that you know that, you will have less trouble when Democrats on Democratic Underground refer to Senator Sanders the way that he prefers to be referred to - as an independent.

If you are really interested in respecting what Senator Sanders himself thinks Democrat means, then call his office and ask a staffer if he is a Democrat or an independent. [phone] Let us know what they say.

I choose to welcome him and his supporters, as they will make us stronger in the fight against Republicans. I see no use in continuing with sour grapes that weakens our party.

Who here on DU isn't welcoming his supporters? All Democrats are welcome here on DU, as long as they respect the rules. If you think valid criticism of a candidate is "unwelcoming to their supporters" you may be unclear on the purpose of a discussion board. I have no idea what "sour grapes" refers to in terms of Senator Sanders. What do Democrats have to be jealous of?

Maybe you should heed your own advice, if you don't like being corrected, you can always put me on ignore so it no longer bothers you.

BTW - Kim Davis now runs on a GOP ticket. As has been demonstrated with Bernie's senate and POTUS primary runs, the Democratic Party does not require one to have been a Democrat prior to running on a Democratic ticket in a primary.

[tiredtoo]

25. And your complaint contains an attack on Sanders? EOM

[NurseJackie]

26. How do you feel when people smear the Democratic party itself? You know...

How do you feel when people smear the Democratic party itself? You know, like when someone says that the Democratic party is "feeble" and "ideologically bankrupt"... or when the party is smeared when someone says "there's no difference" between the GOP and the Democrats... or that the Democratic party is "the party of the one-percent" or (get this) "the party of the elite" and that the party is "corrupt".

Does that make you as angry as it makes me? I'm thinking the answer is probably an enthusiastic (or angry) YES.

This is what Sanders did to Clinton in 2016. He attacked Clinton during primaries and then Trump used the same talking points during the general election.

I know, the legwork had already been done for Trump... the seeds planted. The doubts and suspicions and resentments based on lies, lies and more lies.

All I'm saying is that it serves no good purpose and it only serves to weaken the party. A weakened and divided Democratic party only serves to benefit Trump, the GOP... and of course, it benefits Russia too.

[Vidal]

46. Agree

all of those things make me angry.

[zipplewrath]

27. Unfortunately

Unfortunately, this is a characteristic of a two party system. Worse, currently we really have a one party system. We have democrats, and we have this insane asylum. So all the rational people are in one party, and they don't agree. So there is a struggle between them every two years. In the mean time, the insane people occasionally run the asylum.

[G_j]

44. Good to hear someone say this

because it’s true. “all the rational people are in one party”

[zipplewrath]

47. We inherited the Rockefeller Republicans

I've said for some time that one problem we have is that the former "moderate" republicans, or what the use to call the "Rockefeller Republicans" all left the party and came over to the democratic party. They basically are what get called the 3rd way/DLC/Neo/Conservadem/Corporotist crowd. Some people want to greet them into the party as part of the "Big Tent" concept. I want them to go back to the GOP so we can have rational debates about the issues of the day, and potentially actually find solutions form concensus. As it is now it is the rational people having to try to drown out the crazies. And in the mean time, if we disagree, then we get lectured about "don't say that! That just gives the GOP a victory".

A small part of me is looking forward to having 20 some odd candidates for a while so we can debate the issues of the day without the involvement of the RWNJ.

[G_j]

67. Great points

that I happen to agree with. Of course the media is pretty much in line with the RRs.

I also look forward to the many candidates who will continue to share real ideas and solutions.
I first registered as a Democrat to vote for Jesse Jackson so he could bring up poverty in the debates, as I knew it wouldn’t be touched otherwise.
Primaries are very important.

[mobeau69]

29. Your post is an example of the way attacks are attempted to be disguised.

"This is what Sanders did to Clinton in 2016"

[mcar]

30. Me too

[Kaleva]

33. The TOS doesn't say one must be a Democrat to be a member of DU

From the TOS:

"Democratic Underground is an online community for friendly, politically liberal people who understand the importance of working together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. Constructive criticism of Democratic politicians, party officials, and public figures is welcome and encouraged, but we expect our members to follow our forum rules and participate in a manner which promotes a positive atmosphere."

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

As time goes on, it's going to become a blood bath here in the Primary forum and the individual candidate's groups will be safe havens.

[Vidal]

45. That's a contradiction -- and is wrong

How can there be a blood bath if people also "participate in a manner which promotes a positive atmosphere?"

[Kaleva]

56. Read the old threads

[delisen]

38. Democracy requires we question candidate's records, stances

Otherwise all we have is a beauty contest.

[INdemo]

40. Russian Trolls maybe?

[progressoid]

42. So... Leave Joe Biden Alone!

[shanny]

52. Sorry. The big tent everybody always wants and brags about

means there will be big disagreements inside.

BTW why, in the midst of your plea for positive posts only, would you decide to dump on Bernie?

[MrsCoffee]

55. Probably because he is constantly dumping on Democrats.

And I don't consider him a Democrat even if DU does.

[shanny]

57. So rules only apply when you want them to?

Good to know.

[MrsCoffee]

59. DU rules only apply to DU.

He doesn't have that protection in the real world where people have real feelings of distrust.

[customerserviceguy]

58. Buckle up

because we've got many months between now and when people actually start caucusing and voting in primaries.

We aren't going to have debates where the first candidate to speak says what their positions are, then everybody else says, "What he/she said..." They're all fighting for every last vote, and that means taking those votes away from other candidates.

Trump proved that being a bit mean on the primary campaign trail pays off.

[Kurt V.]

60. silly post. Its healthy to have those debates.

[Honeycombe8]

65. I don't accept your argument. You'd have to show me examples of Republican attacks...

on any of the Democratic candidates.

If you're talking about Sanders, I might accept that, but only because I don't pay much attention to him, so don't know about all of his attacks, if any.

[Cha]

77. KR for the Truthfulness of

your OP, Vidal!!

[Iggo]

82. As am I.