How to Stop the "Socialist" Meme

[kennetha]

Don’t nominate an avowed socialist.

I can see the headlines. “Democratic Party Rejects the Socialism of the Socialist Bernie Sanders.”

Meme silenced. Problem solved

[IronLionZion]

1. Almost all our candidates want Medicare for all

and other Bernie-style policies. Our party is boldly moving left in some policy issues.

[kennetha]

2. left does not equal socialist.

Universal health insurance, even of the single payer variety, does not equal socialism.

Only Bernie dishonestly says that they do. Bernie is the problem. Not the solution.

[comradebillyboy]

6. Amen to that.

[Honeycombe8]

63. +1. nt

[lapucelle]

57. Rep. John Conyers first introduced the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act (HR 676) in 2003.

The same bill had been introduced by the Democratic congressmen in every session of Congress until and including the 115th.

HR 676 had enjoyed wide sponsorship by Democrats in every session of Congress for the last 15 years and is considered by advocates and experts as the gold standard of true single-payer Medicare for All legislation.

There is myth concerning the origin and genesis of Medicare for All legislation, and there is history.

If you're interested in myth, listen to a politician's stump speech.

If you're interested in history, go to the Congressional record.

https://bit.ly/2EWk2G5

If you're interested in learning what happened to the HR 676 in this session of Congress without the stewardship of a tenacious, old school Democrat, you can follow this link. You might also want to ask yourself why no senator ever actually did the hard work involved and introduced a Senate version of the bill in all those many, many years.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/01/22/single-payer-gold-standard-hr-676-rest-peace

[irresistable]

3. Bullshit

https://mic.com/articles/8992/president-obama-is-a-socialist-not-a-liberal#.m3H22JItr

Did that stop the right from calling Obama a socialist?

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-clinton-letter-20160801-story.html

Did that stop the right from calling Hillary a socialist?

[kennetha]

4. But they were not Socialists

And in case you didn't notice. Bernie is.

And in case you didn't notice, Both Obama and Hilary got more votes than any of their Republican opponents.

[democrank]

7. There is a difference between a Socialist and a Democratic Socialist.

According to his own words, Bernie Sanders is a Democratic Socialist.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

9. One comes to power though the bullet the other through the ballot.

One man. One vote. One time.

[kennetha]

12. Bernie is being a dishonest demagogue

when he tries to redefine his own life-long socialism to sound more palatable and completely disingenuously points to the Nordic social democracies as examples of "democratic socialism." That's just mendacious and manipulative blather, designed to bamboozle the gullible.

[Kahuna7]

103. He thinks he can get away with it when there are numerous videos and

writings to suggest he's just a life long socialist.

[Mr Tibbs]

111. Sanders policies are mainstream

Even McCarthy would agree.

[forklift]

28. Dressing on a salad of weeds

is still a salad of weeds

[Demsrule86]

29. There is some video out there that others have posted which may successfully paint him as a

socialist.

[kennetha]

55. Praising Castro's Cuba. Praising the USSR

Hilary never lowered the boom on him because she knew she didn’t have to and didn’t want to alienate his supporters who were so ga ha over him. This time around some lesser known with sharp elbows will be eager to make a name for him/herself and play (red) dragon slayer.

[Mr Tibbs]

59. 1950s McCarthyism doesn't wash anymore outside of the far right

The Millennials are in their 30s now. They will be voting enmasse.

[Demsrule86]

75. I have three kids...they (and me) supported him in 16. This time we won't.

I do not believe Sen. Sanders gets all the millennial vote-especially women and POC.

[radius777]

84. McCarthyism was the false accusation

of liberals, Dems and others as having pro-communist sympathies.

With Sanders, this accusation is not entirely false, given the mountain of evidence (writings, comments, videos) detailing such sympathies.

[Mr Tibbs]

58. The Twitter Trumpers and their their videos

[Kahuna7]

105. Are you saying the videos are fake?

[Mr Tibbs]

107. Twitter Trumpers make youtube videos of various clips taken wildly out of context

Instead of posting sources/citations for their claims.

One thing his detractors in the Democratic party will have a hard time avoiding is using the same propaganda/rhetoric that Trump will be using against Sanders. Will be interesting watching it unfold.

[Kahuna7]

108. Believe that if you want. The videos I've seen are from reliable sources...

If a miracle happens and bernie is the nominee you'll be seeing them too.

[Mr Tibbs]

109. Go on Twitter and see for yourself if you don't believe me

[Kahuna7]

104. I could do it right this minute. nt

[irresistable]

8. In case you didn't notice, Bernie is a Democratic Socialist, not an "avowed" Socialist...

When people hear what Bernie has to say, they like it, which is why so many people in the Democratic Party have embraced the things that he campaigned on in 2016.

[kennetha]

11. democratic socialists are socialists.

what, you think they are just toy socialists, or something and not the real thing?

[irresistable]

13. Give me some examples of things that Bernie is campaigning on that are socialist.

[kennetha]

16. He's playing a bait and switch game.

As I explain in many places on this forum:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128717929

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128718051

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128717929

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128713134


Bernie Sanders is a life long Socialist out to hijack the Democratic Party, which no self-respecting Socialist would EVER claim is a socialist party. But Bernie is trying to turn us into one. ON the sly and dishonestly.

[irresistable]

18. so you can't give me any examples?

[kennetha]

19. did you read any of that.

do you know what a bait and switch even is?

[irresistable]

20. "bait-and-switch" is your viewpoint.

I'm asking you to give me examples of Bernie's actual proposals that are socialist.

That should be easy.

[David__77]

39. He may not want to sell off Amtrak.

Maybe that's a socialist proposal, not selling it...

[Mr Tibbs]

69. Strawman argument.

[Mr Tibbs]

112. Apples and oranges

[brooklynite]

41. When you have to explain the KIND of Socialist he is, you've already lost...

[irresistable]

44. We will see.

[Demsrule86]

76. That is what I think too.

[radius777]

83. Especially w/40 years worth of questionable

comments/speeches/videos which indicate a worldview that is at least on some level sympathetic to autocratic socialists (Cuba, Nicaragua, USSR, etc) - and not just democratic ones like those Europe.

The evidence is there, mountains of it, and Sanders will have to answer to it this time around in much more competitive primary. (2016 was not really competitive, he had no path to victory as he could not win PoC/metro areas/diverse states, thus Hillary held her punches.)

[whopis01]

46. But your point was that not nominating a socialist would stop the meme.

It didn't stop the meme when either Obama or Hillary were nominated.

What is different today to suggest that the "Socialist Meme" would stop if the person nominated was not an avowed socialist?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Dead end voters who believed Obama and Clinton were really socialists were already lost to us.

Bernie calls himself a socialist and therein lies the difference.

[whopis01]

72. So you agree that the OP was incorrect.

Nominating someone who is not an avowed socialist will not stop the “socialist meme”.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. I'm not concerned...

I'm not concerned about low information voters whose votes are already lost to us who believe all left of center politicians are socialists . I am concerned about losing the votes of informed voters whose votes we night get because they won't vote for a self avowed socialist.

[whopis01]

82. I understand. I was merely responding to the OP

who clearly is concerned about low information voters whose votes are already lost to us.

[David__77]

5. Not even Third Way will run that headline.

The Democratic Party is a big tent and there’s rightly room for socialists.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

10. No. We are a liberal Democratic party.

Socialist ideology is incompatible with liberalism.

[David__77]

15. I disagree. There are socialists in the house caucus.

And, by the way, that is not a new thing. Ron Dellums, for instance, was a socialist in congress too.

The Democratic Party is not ideologically purist, not liberal purist or socialist purist.

[Demsrule86]

30. I wouldn't vote for a socialist. first of all they won't win a general. And secondly

it is a worse sort of government than capitalism. I believe in capitalism with oversite.

[David__77]

33. Even if that socialist was the democratic nominee?

"Socialists" have variable viewpoints and policy preferences, just as do "capitalists." I think that it's possible to have either socialism or capitalism, or both, within the frameworks provided by the US constitution. I don't think "socialism" requires a change in basic system of government.

[kennetha]

37. yes it does.

Socialism requires the "democratic control and or ownership" of the means of production. Congress is allowed to "regulated interstate commerce." But it has no power whatsoever to "own or control" the means of production. that would require a huge expansion of the powers of the federal government.

[David__77]

38. The US constitution in no way prevents government from owning or controlling means of production.

...

[kennetha]

47. yes it does. try nationalizing all private property and see what happens.

[David__77]

61. That's quite another matter.

The government owning means of production is not the same as it nationalizing all private property.

[kennetha]

68. what do you think it is for the state to "own" the means of production?

that's what soicialist governments often do ... nationalize certain basic industries ... in the name of democratic control of them.

[radius777]

86. There would be mass revolt, let them try it.

Sarandon would truly get her revolution, except it would be in the other direction, with most liberals and Dems fighting against such authoritarianism.

All socialism is ultimately statist and nationalist, because it works by confiscating property/wealth - whether via confiscatory taxation or (should the property owners refuse) at the point of a gun.

[Demsrule86]

42. As I have stated I will vote for Sen. Sanders who is the only socialist running in 20 ...nice try.

[David__77]

43. You will? Ok.

I have and would vote for an anti-socialist Democrat.

[Mr Tibbs]

113. To folks under 40 it's a good thing

To people over 50 it's communism.

In the end, the old people will die and the young people will take over. Eventually we have to stop fighting them

[DURHAM D]

14. The way to stop it is to start talking about

the Farm Bill.

Call it what it is.

[roody]

17. And no health care for us.

[TheRealNorth]

21. Sometimes you need socialists to save capitalism from itself.

How's that meme.

[TCJ70]

22. HAHAHAHAHA...*deep breath*...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You think it'll stop...n/t

[kennetha]

24. Electing Sanders plays into it.

They called Hilary Socialist. Obama Socialist. Probably Bill Clinton too at some point. But to NO avail. Since none of them are. They all got more votes than their Republican opponents. But Sanders IS a SELF-DECLARED Socialist. And his is not lying or confused. He's a socialist.

If we decisively reject him -- as we should -- we decisively reject socialism.



Bye Bye Bernie. Go get your own party. You can't have ours.

[TCJ70]

32. Thanks for revealing what this OP is actually about...

...it's not about the "socialist" label. Any of our nominees will be labelled that. Your first three sentences prove that.

This OP is solely about your dislike of Bernie Sanders. Nice, minimal effort, at trying to obfuscate it, though.

[kennetha]

36. Best way to deserve the label 'socialist'

Is to elect a self-avowed and proud socialist -- which is what Bernie always has been.

Best way to NOT deserve that label is not to elect a socialist but to reject the socialist who is trying to hijack your party.

Did I say something that any reasonable person who isn't a socialist would disagree with?

[irresistable]

45. Telling Bernie supporters to get their own Party...brilliant strategy.

[kennetha]

48. what you think it would be better to let them hijack ours for the cause of socialism?

[irresistable]

66. You have yet to provide me with an example of a policy that he is running on that is socialist.

I get it that you are quaking with fear over the Republican use of the label, but which policies of his do you consider to be socialist?

[kennetha]

67. Head in the Sanders much?

I already explained his bait and switch game to you.

[irresistable]

70. You didn't explain it....you just typed the WORDS "bait and switch"

You can't seem to come up with a policy of his that is socialist.

That is very telling.

[demmiblue]

25. No shit.

It is amazing how gullible some people are.

[TCJ70]

34. If you look at their reply to me you can see what this is actually about...

...and it has nothing to do with anyone being labelled a socialist. That's going to happen no matter what. It's their go-to boogeyman now. All this post was, was an opportunity to take a swipe at someone they don't like.

Lame.

[forklift]

64. It is not a boogeyman

It is an extremely valid point of contention.

Another one is Bernie's tax returns ..... where are they?


#whatishehiding

[Awsi Dooger]

23. When Bill Nelson is called a socialist that's a slight hint toward 2020

Socialism was not a Republican push in 2012 or 2016 or any recent presidential cycle. Sure, there are isolated columns like the ones posted elsewhere in this thread, but that is normal distribution. I still don't think posters here or Democratic candidates/officials have sense of how far the GOP will take it in 2020. Just keep multiplying and you'll still never get there.

The fact that it was not a theme toward Hillary in 2016 makes it more available for them in 2020. None of the anti-Hillary types remember socialism as the reason they disliked or distrusted Hillary. Just like 2014 was a warm up cycle for the unrest among white working class types, socialism was tested in 2018, and quite successfully here in Florida against Gillum and Nelson.

That 46% number calling Gillum too liberal for the state should not have been possible. I started a thread on election night focusing on that exit poll number because I knew how troublesome it was toward 2020, if we nominate someone who is equally vulnerable to the socialism label. I doubt people outside Florida got a representative view of how the GOP was applying the socialism tag...not all at once but a steady build up toward election day, so maximum impact would happen late. Likewise I'm sure that will be their strategy in 2020.

[forklift]

26. I like that OP nt

[greymattermom]

27. So folks associate "security" with "social"

Just call it "security".

[Gothmog]

31. I agree

[NurseJackie]

35. I only support DEMOCRATS!

Only. Democrats.

[brooklynite]

40. I'm sorry; a simple, sensible argument like that will never catch on...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. I will defend universal health care. I will defend a livable wage.

I will defend free college tuition. I hope I don't gave to defend socialism and how my party's socialism is the good and democratic kind...

[KayF]

51. aside from the fact that this would not stop the meme

as others have pointed out, and you have conceded, they will call everyone a socialist no matter what.

Aside from that, Bernie has way too much support for the dems to oppose him that directly.

[kennetha]

53. When, not if, Bernie is defeated and withdraws from race

The socialist meme will follow him into well deserved political oblivion within the party he refuses to join.

Sure the Republicans will try their tire old parlor game. But at least we won’t be handing them any ammunition to shoot us with.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

54. I would count on him being defeated. However, "withdrawal" after defeat

seems like a far less likely prospect.

[kennetha]

56. True

He’ll storm and sulk and bellow and bully all the way to the convention if he doesn’t get his way, consequences for the party and the eventual candidate be damned.

That’s just who he is.

[R B Garr]

71. Bingo! This is the absolute last distraction we need right now,

And for what. No good has come of it. Too much has been sacrificed. We are Democrats. Nothing wrong with that.

[Devil Child]

60. I'll happily support the so-called "...Socialism of the Socialist Bernie Sanders."

I will have no problem casting my vote Sen. Sanders if he wins the nomination.

[David__77]

62. Me too.

I think it’s good people are talking about what kind of society they want or don’t want.

[Gothmog]

65. Electability is my main criterion

Link to tweet

?s=20

[Inkfreak]

73. still have to contend with this..

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211913624

[Gothmog]

77. Electability is my main criterion

I want a candidate who can win. I do not think that a socialist candidate can win

[redstateblues]

78. Same here

[HopeAgain]

79. Yeah lets not be progressive?

Let the other side control the language and maybe we could hide too!

[kennetha]

80. What you can't be a progressive without being socialist?

You should try it, it’s really not that hard!

[HopeAgain]

81. I can be progressive without being controlled on what

teminology to use. Or I can be Republican light, which are you proposing?

[kennetha]

85. ever hear of a false dilemma?

[HopeAgain]

88. A false dilemma

is being afraid to use words that the Right doesn't like for fear they won't vote for something they are not going to vote for anyway..

[kennetha]

89. Wait, are you embracing the socialist label? Is that what you're suggesting?

Do you know ANYTHING about socialism and its history and its different internecine struggles except the blather you've heard Sanders spout?

[HopeAgain]

91. I have no problem with the word "socialism"

As in democratic socialism. And the social democracies of Europe. I can form my own views without Sander's "blather," thank you.

Social democracy is a system that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic system and a capitalist economy.

If you are afraid of a word, there is nothing we can do about that...

[kennetha]

94. the social democracies of Europe are NOT socialist

that's just either ignorant or swallowing Sanders' purposeful obfuscation or both.

[HopeAgain]

96. Calling people ignorant

because they don't agree with your definition (I gave a generally accepted one) is not a conversation and frankly I don't give a fuck about what you think of Sanders, I don't get my politics from him.

[Blue_Tires]

87. Please... Even moderate Dems are smeared as "socialist"

[kennetha]

90. But that's obviously a losing game.

You can't make the label stick on them. But they will have no problem making the label stick on Sanders. Cause that's what he is. A proud dye-in-the wool socialist, by his own life long admission, and he's not just pretending either. he's the real thing.

[Blue_Tires]

92. Look, while I hope Sanders and his cult lose and lose badly

it is important that they NOT lose just because they're labeled as "socialist"... Not that 80% of people even know what the word means to begin with.

[kennetha]

93. you're missing my point.

[Starry Messenger]

95. Reactionaries in the 1860s called freeing the slaves socialist and accused Lincoln of being a Red

(Note: I'm not a Bernie supporter, just making an observation.)

Our opponents call anything that is to the left of total laissez-faire capitalism a harbinger of creeping Communism.

Nothing will stop them except beating them like a wet rug and quit giving into their memes.

[Gothmog]

97. Opinion: The myth of ideology, and why Democrats' energy isn't all on the left

Link to tweet

The vast majority of Democratic primary voters then and now do not identify as democratic socialists. Perhaps Sanders capitalized on unaffiliated anti-establishment types and Democrats who preferred him despite his ideology and not because of it. Move forward to the 2020 contests. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) is providing the most substantive, interesting agenda that committed progressives could hope to see. Yet she is lagging in the polls. If this was all about progressive ideology and policy plans, she’d be running rings around the rest of the field.

As for Sanders, he benefits this time around from 100 percent name identification. However, the flip side of 100 percent name ID is that he’s no longer new, no longer saying things no one else will. He’s just as much of a democratic socialist as he was in 2016, but in the space of a few days we’ve seen that the “energy” isn’t all on the left; it’s drifting toward a centrist, young, optimistic candidate. Voters follow the energy and the ethos. They don’t carry around a thermometer gauging where on the scale of ideological purity each candidate rates.....

All you need to be is progressive enough to win a Democratic primary. Seeming more moderate than the Sanders clan is an advantage in the general election.

Why are pundits, the media and party insiders so convinced that ideological extremism equals energy/success? Part of it may be wishful thinking for progressives. However, part of the difficulty is linguistic. "Moderate” sounds to many ears to mean mild-mannered, prone to compromise and wishy-washy in beliefs. Nonsense. If ever there was a radical moderate, a fervent centrist Democrat, it’s O’Rourke. And gosh, he’s showing that can be exciting.

[NurseJackie]

98. Simple. Defeat BS.

[Gothmog]

99. Economic models point to a Trump blowout in 2020. But a faltering economy or giant scandal could cha

I have seen similar studies. It is not a given that trump is beatable in 2020. If the economy is in good shape, then there are models and studies that show that trump can win. Obama left trump with a great economy and trump may not screw up the Obama economy before 2020 and get re-elected.

Link to tweet

I am not counting on the Obama economy faltering and so I am worried. We have to defeat trump We have to nominate the most electable candidate

[Cuthbert Allgood]

100. Or how about we not give in to Republican scare tactics

and help people realize that we have a lot of socialism in our system which is why capitalism hasn't destroyed us yet.

But, sure, let's reject socialism in favor of mouth-breathing morons so that they don't get the hurts.

[guillaumeb]

101. The problem is thinking that socialism is the problem.

Many think that "corporatism" is the real issue.

[Kahuna7]

102. Duh. Especially one with scores of videos and writings

eschewing capitalism and extolling the virtues of socialism.

[Gothmog]

110. Trump's Economic Team Pushes 'Socialism' Theme

trump will use socialism to attack our nominee if we are not careful https://politicalwire.com/2019/03/21/trumps-economic-team-pushes-socialism-theme/

Politico: “President Trump has enlisted his senior economic advisers to flesh out one of his early 2020 presidential campaign themes: Socialism is coming. In recent months, traditionally staid official White House economic reports and briefings have begun to emphasize the potentially massive costs of an ambitious socialist agenda and warn that America could transform into a Cold War dystopia.”

[Gothmog]

114. Trump plans to hit Democrats on "socialism" but faces own vulnerabilities

Link to tweet

[NurseJackie]

115. Best thread of the entire Month of March! Thank you!

Don’t nominate an avowed socialist.

I assure you, I'll never support a Socialist. Never.

[Gothmog]

116. If the economy is strong, trump can win

We have to nominate a strong/electable candidate

[Gothmog]

117. Washington Post-'Electability' and 'Bernie' don't belong in the same sentence

Link to tweet

“A combined 58 percent of voters are either uncomfortable (37 percent) or have reservations about (21 percent) Bernie Sanders’ 2020 bid. For Elizabeth Warren, it’s a combined 53 percent. And for Kamala Harris and Beto O’Rourke, it’s 41 percent of voters expressing either reservations or discomfort.” Given that the overwhelming number of voters know who Sanders is, there is no excuse — as there is for other candidates — that they have insufficient information to decide whether to vote for him. Sanders is about as well known as former vice president Joe Biden, yet the poll shows that Biden’s comfortable/uncomfortable rating (48/48) clearly outpaces Sanders’s (37/58).....

Sanders’s age, the “socialist” moniker he embraces and his 2016 campaign problem with women are not going to change during the race. It’s unlikely his personality or his familiarity with foreign policy will improve, either. (The guy is 77, and if we have learned anything from Trump, it is that septuagenarians don’t change their personalities nor attend to habitual deficits in knowledge.) Oh, and on Sunday he again promised to release his tax returns, which he promised over a month ago would be “soon.”

[Hekate]

118. Just rename it, for God's sake. Did FDR go around calling himself a socialist? I don't think so....

He just got on with the many jobs at hand and called himself a Democrat. LBJ didn't call himself anything but a Democrat either, yet he got a lot done and would have done more if he hadn't gotten mired in the quicksand that was Vietnam.

How hard would that be for Dems in 2019 and 2020? State the policies, clearly and loudly, over and over. Don't let the media bait you. Don't let outliers name the agenda and insist it must be called by an unpopular name.

We don't need the headline you suggested, really, but we do need to move around Bernie, who has proven to call himself a Democrat only when it suits him, and otherwise spends his time criticizing Dems a lot more than Repubs.

If I were running for anything I think I would pretty much refuse to discuss Bernie at all with the media, except to say "Bernie's certainly passionate, but most of his ideas have been part of the Democratic platform for a long time, so there's no need to get into a discussion of definitions. We are Dems. We always have been. We'll be glad to discuss our policies, and you can ask Senator Sanders about his."

[Gothmog]

119. If sanders is the nominee, trump wins

Link to tweet