HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Retired » Retired Forums » Democratic Primaries (Forum) » Those who oppose Warren--...
Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:06 AM

 

Those who oppose Warren---Trump-humpers AND some here---are accusing her of "dodging"

questions about whether MFA would "increase taxes" on the middle class. I would substitute "avoided the trap" for "dodged the question".

Tweety and others were after one thing: a sound bite that they could run with, as in "Warren ADMITS MFA will raise taxes for most!" The truthful explanation that out of pocket COSTS (considering NO deductibles or copays, etc) would be reduced and leave middle class folks with more money in their pockets would never be mentioned by the "OMG---Lookee HERE!" media.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

37 replies, 1209 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 37 replies Author Time Post
Reply Those who oppose Warren---Trump-humpers AND some here---are accusing her of "dodging" (Original post)
Atticus Jul 2019 OP
BlueMTexpat Jul 2019 #1
wyldwolf Jul 2019 #2
brooklynite Jul 2019 #3
Atticus Jul 2019 #6
watoos Jul 2019 #7
Demsrule86 Jul 2019 #26
watoos Jul 2019 #4
brooklynite Jul 2019 #22
wyldwolf Jul 2019 #5
Atticus Jul 2019 #8
wyldwolf Jul 2019 #9
Beartracks Jul 2019 #11
wyldwolf Jul 2019 #14
Beartracks Jul 2019 #15
crazytown Jul 2019 #16
Atticus Jul 2019 #20
wyldwolf Jul 2019 #21
Atticus Jul 2019 #12
Beartracks Jul 2019 #10
Raven123 Jul 2019 #13
Demsrule86 Jul 2019 #25
Raven123 Jul 2019 #28
Demsrule86 Aug 2019 #37
Hortensis Jul 2019 #17
highplainsdem Jul 2019 #18
hurl Jul 2019 #19
Thekaspervote Jul 2019 #30
treestar Jul 2019 #23
tonedevil Jul 2019 #35
treestar Jul 2019 #36
Demsrule86 Jul 2019 #24
tblue37 Jul 2019 #27
Mike 03 Jul 2019 #29
highplainsdem Jul 2019 #31
Mike 03 Jul 2019 #33
ProfessorPlum Jul 2019 #32
corbettkroehler Jul 2019 #34

Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:15 AM

1. I am with you

 

on this.

Good for her!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:17 AM

2. yet, still... she dodged the question.

 



Would MFA increase taxes on the middle class? Yes, no, why, or why not?
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:18 AM

3. Sorry, but it's a perfectly fair question..

 

...which Republicans will definitely bring up. The simple answer is: “your taxes will rise a bit, but your medical costs will drop.”. A politician who ducks the question with a canned answer sound like a politician, and that’s a problem for voters who feel that politicians of all stripes can’t be trusted.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brooklynite (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:24 AM

6. It is a perfectly fair question IF the entire "simple answer" you mention would be fairly reported.

 

I don't think it would be.

But, "dodged the question" is useful for those who oppose Warren.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brooklynite (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:25 AM

7. There are a lot of ways to pay for health care,

 

Canada taxes tobacco, gasoline, and alcoholic beverages
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to watoos (Reply #7)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:17 AM

26. Those are regressive taxes and impact the poor and the middle class...horrible idea.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:22 AM

4. msnbc is complicit with the right.

 

The only news anchor to score lower on Jeopardy than Tweety was Wolf. I remember when Tweety was in a fight with Phil Donahue over going into Iraq. Tweety was pro, Donahue was against. Of course msnbc fired Donahue he didn't toe the right wing narrative.

Atticus, I listened to the questions that cnn was asking, the purpose of that debate last night was to bring down Bernie and Warren. I want to see if cnn does the same tonight for Biden and Harris?
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to watoos (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:09 AM

22. So, Rachel Maddow toes a right wing narrative?

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:24 AM

5. here's the transcript

 

TAPPER: At the last debate, you said you’re, quote, “with Bernie on Medicare for all.” Now, Senator Sanders has said that people in the middle class will pay more in taxes to help pay for Medicare for all, though that will be offset by the elimination of insurance premiums and other costs. Are you also, quote, “with Bernie” on Medicare for all when it comes to raising taxes on middle-class Americans to pay for it?

WARREN: So giant corporations and billionaires are going to pay more. Middle-class families are going to pay less out of pocket for their health care. And I'd like to finish talking about Ady, the guy who has ALS... (this was the first dodge of the question)

--- snip of Warren discussing the guy with ALS ----

TAPPER: Thank you, Senator. Just a point of clarification... (because she dodged it the first time)

(APPLAUSE)

... in 15 extra seconds, would you raise taxes on the middle class to pay for Medicare for All, offset, obviously, by the elimination of insurance premiums, yes or no?

WARREN: Costs will go up for billionaires and go up for corporations. For middle-class families, costs -- total costs -- will go down. (Dodge number 2)
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wyldwolf (Reply #5)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:26 AM

8. See #6 above. nt

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Reply #8)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:28 AM

9. So you're blaming her dodge on the belief an answer wouldn't be fairly reported?

 

It was a 'yes' or 'no' question. The transcripts and playback clearly show she avoided answering it.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wyldwolf (Reply #9)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:41 AM

11. If it would be fairly reported, then why insist on a yes-or-no answer?

 

The media abhors nuance. Taxes wouldn't go up in a vacuum, but the soundbite most assuredly would have.

========
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Beartracks (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:47 AM

14. Her response is being fairly reported now

 

News reports are reporting exactly what she said. There's no indication the media would NOT have reported it had she responded "yes, and here's why" or "no, and here's why."

What people are seeing in the playbacks that will run 24/7 is her avoiding the question.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wyldwolf (Reply #14)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:50 AM

15. Fair point. I'm just cynical when it comes to the MSM. n/t

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wyldwolf (Reply #14)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:53 AM

16. You know well why no Democrat will say

 

"I will raise your taxes". No gifts for the GOP.



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wyldwolf (Reply #14)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 09:26 AM

20. "---no indication---???? So, gotcha journalism is a thing of the past?

 

Don't think so.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Reply #20)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 09:46 AM

21. there's no indication the media would've reported it the way the person I responded to said it would

 



That isn't a difficult concept.

They're reporting exactly how Warren answered - or didn't answer - the question.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wyldwolf (Reply #9)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:42 AM

12. I see. One of those always-fair-never-abused "yes or no" questions. Who was it who said

 

"I don't do 'nuance'"?

W, I believe.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:33 AM

10. It definitely is a "trap" question, as if taxes are the...

 

... only thing that take money out of people's pockets. In a a democracy, paying one's fair share of taxes is a patriotic duty, but one's tax burden does not exist in a vacuum; living in our society imposes many financial obligations on us.

Isn't it odd that the question was not: "Will MFA reduce premiums and out-of-pocket costs for the middle class?" Because saying, "Deductibles and copays will be eliminated... but your taxes will go up bit," sounds very different than, "Your taxes will increase... but, but that will be more than offset by having no deductibles or copays" -- because it puts the emphasis where it belongs: on the reduction of healthcare costs, which is not only the intended consequence of MFA but is also the greater financial impact when compared to any tax increase.

========
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:44 AM

13. This thread reminds me of the "show of hands" questions asked at the MSNBC debate

 

The problem is that the question in this format does not allow for an easy back and forth discussion. It comes off as suggesting that the entire means of financing the proposal is through middle class taxes.

Those type of questions cause confusion for everyone.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Raven123 (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:14 AM

25. Taxes will go up and those of us who have employer subsidized rates will pay through the nose for

 

a program that has many flaws...I am not in favor of MFA. And running on it will cost us the election. It also has zero chance passing.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #25)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:23 AM

28. Interesting point. Gotta link with that data?

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Raven123 (Reply #28)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:19 PM

37. What kind of link? Taxes would go up...and my costs definitely would go up.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 08:57 AM

17. I heard her say that overall they would NOT. Twice.

 

The bottom line is what concerns me. If those Republican voters who supported the tax heist had just flipped to the bottom line, instead of ignoring it along with thousands of pages meant to confuse and obfuscate, they would have been very enlightened.

Few of us would want, much less expect, to get something for nothing. And a majority of those who do, for various reasons, regret not being able to carry their own weight.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 09:00 AM

18. I believe she hurt herself by dodging. She could say this:

 

"If taxes go up slightly to pay for a program that saves people greater amounts of money..."

She could also point out that people pay taxes for other programs that save them money:

"We know that taxes funding basic needs save individuals money. Taxes spent on roads and bridges save drivers not just time but money they'd otherwise spend for car repairs and extra fuel."

And so on. Nothing there the Republicans can use against her in a video or audio clip.

Dodging the question simply calls more attention to what she ISN'T saying.

I like and admire Warren. One of the best things about her is her directness. It doesn't help her to sound like just another politician.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 09:11 AM

19. It's sad to see so many here

 

adopt right-wing framing and talking points. Right-wingers learned years ago that if they frame the narrative, they win.

Finally, some of our candidates are starting to fight back. Pete Buttigieg is the best at re-framing of this field, IMO, and Elizabeth Warren is not far behind. We should be supportive of this, not rw talking points.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hurl (Reply #19)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:27 AM

30. It's not RW talking points, it's how the RW will frame it and this is a serious issue

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:10 AM

23. She is getting her chance in the barrel

 

and to show how well she handles it. This is desirable, I'm told.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to treestar (Reply #23)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 04:49 PM

35. A sailor on a Navy ship...

 

had been out to sea for weeks, and was beginning to go through sex withdrawals. Fed up with the lack of sex, he asked one of his shipmates what he did when the pressure was too much to take.

"Well, there's a barrel with a hole in it near the mop storage. When it gets to be too much for us, we use that."

So the sailor went over to the barrel and decided to give it a go. Finding it was better than he'd expected, he began using it regularly, and his problems seemed to vanish.

After a couple of weeks, his commanding officer began to take notice, and said, "You seem to be a lot more relaxed. What's your secret?"

The sailor, embarrassed to give a straight answer, simply said he'd been getting better rest.

"Well good, sailor. You're going to need it," replied the officer. "Today's your turn in the barrel."


I don't think it is right to use that punchline without the whole joke.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tonedevil (Reply #35)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 05:46 PM

36. lol thanks!

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:12 AM

24. If you have to hide parts of your policy because it is unpopular, than you shouldn't run on it...

 

Voters would consider this a bait and switch.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:21 AM

27. Self-delete.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:24 AM

29. Some would call it a dodge but please consider...

 

If she had simply answered "Yes," it would almost surely wind up in a Trump ad.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Mike 03 (Reply #29)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 11:29 AM

31. See reply 18. There are ways to phrase it that won't give Trump a clip to use.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to highplainsdem (Reply #31)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 01:39 PM

33. Good point!

 

There are really good ideas here. I hope the aids to the candidates sometimes check out these threads.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 01:37 PM

32. One answer is "Private Taxes will go way down and Public Taxes will go up a little"

 

wherein private taxes are premiums, deductables, copays, etc.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jul 31, 2019, 04:24 PM

34. Wisely Evasive

 

All proponents of MFA need to use the phrasing along the lines of "Healthcare Costs will go down." If we lead with "taxes will rise", the other side will drill out-of-context sound bites into the ground.

Although I support Sanders, I am comfortable with Warren's answers.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread