It's Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren v the 'No We Can't' Democrats

[melman]

One of the most compelling things about Tuesday’s Democratic debate – which featured Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Pete Buttigieg, Beto O’Rourke, and a host of lesser known candidates – was to see just how much of Sanders’ 2016 progressive agenda is dominating the party in 2019 and just how uncompelling the centrist replies to it still are.

John Delaney, an unknown former congressman who has spent millions running a campaign no one’s heard of, was the unlikely gladiator willing to take it on. Despite statistically insignificant support, he got plenty of airtime, saying his progressive opponents (both Sanders and Warren) were committing political suicide and that they didn’t stand a chance in a general election.

--

It was perfect for CNN producers to have Delaney aggressively take on the popular Sanders and Warren, but he ended up playing into their hands, forcing the conversation to topics which are their core strengths. With the hapless Delaney knocked out early, other candidates tried to play the foil. The former Colorado governor John Hickenlooper zeroed in on Senator Sanders: “Socialism is not the answer. Don’t let extremism give Trump four more years.”

Sanders replied by reminding him that every credible poll has him beating Trump. He runs especially strongly in battleground states, where he can expose Trump as a “fraud” and a “phony”. What’s extremist about giving people a living wage, or having them pay less for prescription drugs?

--

Despite polling showing how popular the core progressive agenda of universal healthcare, jobs, and free education is, centrists are desperate to portray themselves as the only sane, electable option out there. This isn’t just the strategy of some long-shots in a crowded field – it’s the argument keeping Joe Biden at the top of Democratic polls.

But the electability bubble is in danger of bursting. Centrists used to run on lofty rhetoric: the “Yes, we can”, “hope and change” stuff. Now they’ve ceded that ground completely to Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/31/bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren-democratic-debate?CMP=share_btn_tw

[silentEcho]

1. That is so wrong and just took under 12 hours to get here.

[George II]

9. That bit of misinformation was written by the founder of Jacobin Magazine. Enough said.

[silentEcho]

10. Really? I do not know anything of whom you are referring to. But, o.k. Thanks.

[George II]

11. Bhaskar Sunkara is the author...

"Bhaskar Sunkara is the founding editor of Jacobin magazine.."

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/bhaskar-sunkara

[NurseJackie]

14. I'd like to kick it up a notch and make it VERY clear... May I, please?

Bhaskar Sunkara is the founding editor of Jacobin magazine and a Guardian US columnist. He is the author of The Socialist Manifesto: The Case for Radical Politics in an Era of Extreme Inequality

[silentEcho]

15. I see. Thanks.

Is he AOC employee what thru out that swipe at a few of our Democrats? I am old and not good at remembering names. These are the outliers of the Democratic party I am fighting against right now.

[George II]

31. No, that's Saikat Chakrabarti, who is also the one who wears a t-shirt honoring...

...a WWII Nazi collaborator whose band of soldiers fought and killed American in India.

[silentEcho]

35. Right. Why are we ignoring these tells/flags just as we saw/see with Trump and how his supporters

and worse, Republican Party ignore the tells/flags.

[crazytown]

16. Yikes!

[Progressive dog]

24. Someone who calls himself a Jacobin

is not someone worth listening to.

Today, the terms Jacobin and Jacobinism are used in a variety of senses. In France, Jacobin now generally indicates a supporter of a centralized republican state and strong central government powers[2] and/or supporters of extensive government intervention to transform society. Jacobin is sometimes used in Britain as a pejorative for radical, left-wing revolutionary politics (English: /ˈdʒækəbɪn/).[3]
Contents

[lapucelle]

78. A socialist monetizing his activism with the help of Amazon.

[NurseJackie]

79. PT Barnum was right.

[brooklynite]

2. There's another way you "can't"...

Not getting elected.

[bluewater]

6. New Poll: Obama Inspirational But Can't Win

A new Washington Post poll today has a few interesting nuggets that help answer that nagging question of the current presidential campaign: “What happened to Obama?”

Buried deep in the data is a question about which presidential candidate has the best chance of winning the White House next year. Hillary Clinton stomps on all the closest rivals, with 57 percent of the poll respondents favoring her. What’s interesting, though, is that the runner up, with 20 percent, is John Edwards. Perhaps this is to be expected. After all, he’s run before. But given his fundraising prowess and media prominence, it’s surprising to see that Obama comes in a distant third in this category, at 16 percent. By comparison, 37 percent of those polled thought Obama was the most inspirational candidate, compared with 41 percent for Clinton and only 14 percent for Edwards.

Obama’s poor showing in the polls on the electability question is probably fatal. People obviously love Obama, but don’t think he can win in ’08. The Post doesn’t ask why people believe that, but it’s hard to imagine that race isn’t a big factor. It’s not that Democrats won’t vote for an African-American, but that they don’t believe Republicans will.
One question the poll can’t answer: If Obama can’t win, why are so many people giving him money?

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/10/new-poll-obama-inspirational-cant-win/

Conventional wisdom isn't always so wise, eh?

[LanternWaste]

18. After this, therefor because of this, eh?

Logical fallacies ain't always too bright, eh? Part II

[bluewater]

19. Non sequitor?

Seems so.

Perhaps a strawman?

Perhaps.

And a pinch of ad hominem?

[Amimnoch]

25. so fallacious!

[George II]

32. No, no, and finally - no.

[LiberalLovinLug]

20. This is why I hope Sanders and Warren will come out on top

"37 percent of those polled thought Obama was the most inspirational candidate, compared with 41 percent for Clinton and only 14 percent for Edwards.

Obama’s poor showing in the polls on the electability question is probably fatal. People obviously love Obama, but don’t think he can win in ’08.
"

"inspirational" That will win us the White House back. We need to stop the "No We Can't" strategy. When will Democrats learn that cowardice and compliance will not win with the public anymore. Both Sanders and Warren have detailed how they will pay for their progressive platform, but even IF some diligent technocratic geek thinks they can find holes in their plans, SO WHAT? Even if we just began the process towards these goals it would be something different than waiting for the Republicans to suddenly wake up one day and start acting like adults.

The point is to be "inspirational". Have a damn imagination for fucks sake! Have some shining hill to strive for. Once we win back the Presidency, the House and Senate, THEN we can work out the details. With a cowed Republican minority who won't have any power to stop us.

[bluewater]

21. +1000

[brutus smith]

30. Absolutely!

[lapfog_1]

3. "yes we can"

win an election with the poisonous diatribes of a racist wannbe dictator leading his deplorable army.

"Yes we can" elect someone who will return respect to the office of the Presidency.

"Yes we can" elect someone who will not be laughed at or manipulated by hostile foreign powers.

"Yes we can" unite both the white working class, the brown and black working class and the liberal left.

"yes we can"... unless we f' this up and allow the Repukes to paint us as socialists.

[George II]

7. Bazinga!

[lapucelle]

41. I get a little bit tired of people saying the Democrats are afraid. What are they talking about?

[George II]

46. One of the candidates said this last night, bashing Democrats and praising republicans:

"I get a little bit tired of Democrats afraid of big ideas, Republicans are not afraid of big ideas."

[lapucelle]

60. I like E Warren's statement of unity: "We are the Democrats".

Her default setting is "unity" rather than "division".

[NurseJackie]

12. And... BOOM!!

[Saviolo]

13. There is no one to select who they won't paint as socialists.

They painted Obama as a socialist for 8 years.

Pence has already painted Biden as a socialist. (link)

McConnell called statehood for DC and Puerto Rico socialist. (link)

If Joe The Plumber got the nomination, they'd paint him as a socialist.

Don't let them frame the discussion, we all already know how they're going to do it, and it's starting to be a failing strategy for them.

[theaocp]

22. The idea is to get everyone out with this fear until Warren and Sanders are gone.

Then, defend against the socialist labels. It's deliberate.

[stonecutter357]

4. let's go Joe !

[CentralMass]

5. K&R

[Uncle Joe]

8. Kicked and recommended

Thanks for the thread melman.

[lillypaddle]

17. I am not for Medicare for all

Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2019, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)

I am on Medicare. It only pays 80% of covered expenses. I had to get a supplemental plan to help pick up the slack. With the deductible, and the 20%, and my premiums for the supplemental, not to mention the expense of a separate plan to cover part D (prescriptions), Medicare isn't the monetary panacea some think. Last year I paid about $8,000 out of pocket. I live on my Social Security.

I highly resent being referred to as a "No we can't Democrat."

On edit: I forgot about the actual premiums for Medicare itself. Add those to the above numbers.

[theaocp]

23. Would you prefer corporate health care?

Or perhaps single payer that would cover everyone?

[lillypaddle]

66. It's a complicated subject

I commented on the "Medicare for all" because I'm on Medicare - and with corporate health care to cover prescriptions and what Medicare doesn't cover. It's expensive.

I really don't know how a single payer option would work for me.

[Progressive dog]

29. I'm on Medicare also

Instead of a supplemental, I joined a Medicare Advantage plan which provides drug coverage, better part B coverage, and a cap on covered expenses. Between my wife and I, we are above $12000 out of pocket this year and climbing. Of course that doesn't include eyeglasses or dental. Fortunately we don't need hearing aids or the batteries for them.
We couldn't get by on social security alone. I worry all the time that one of us will end up in a nursing home. Only skilled nursing homes are covered under Medicare and then for only 21 days and 80 additional days at about $185 per day co pay.
I too am a "no we can't Democrat" because the country can't. Making magic laws is not the same a providing health care.

[lillypaddle]

50. I'm always puzzled

by the people who think Medicare is "free" or almost free.

[Progressive dog]

55. I am too.

[yaesu]

39. Medicare has been under attack by the fascists for years and our party has done a dismal job

stopping it, sometimes even joining in on the hit job. Its time we fight, no more centrist crap that will just let the fascist destroy more of it, like they are doing ACA. Its time for bold measures and bold candidates.

[wasupaloopa]

48. It's time for the bold candidates to tell us how much our taxes will go up.

Stop talking down to us. You are not the smart ones in the room. Anyone even I can promise good sounding programs if I only stay on the periphery and never mention the bad news that goes with it.

How about a guaranteed income for all and free healthcare and free college and a 3 figure paying job for anyone who wants to work? See how easy that is? Who pays? Don’t worry about it.


It’s hard to develop a program that could actually become law like Biden and Harris have.

[lillypaddle]

49. I don't know what you're talking about

What fascists have destroyed Medicare? Are you on Medicare?

[corbettkroehler]

26. Vice Magazine Published Much The Same Sentiment (I Smell A Trend)

Warren And Sanders To The Centrists: Move Left Or Go Home

http://news.vice.com/en_us/article/j5wy3x/warren-and-sanders-team-up-to-push-the-democratic-also-rans-left-and-maybe-out

By Daniel Newhauser and Cameron Joseph | July 31, 2019

[ismnotwasm]

27. Oh for Gods sake.

No, it fucking isn’t.

[NurseJackie]

33. Thank you!

[Progressive dog]

57. It's mean to tell people that

there is no Santa Clause. Necessary but mean.

[treestar]

28. You have to get elected and get the Congress members

the voters may want this or that, but unless they vote in people who will pass it, they won't get it. Maybe just being President and talking about it doesn't cut it.

[Skidmore]

59. Yes. This.

IOW, Warren and Sanders can only get the promises accomplished IF they can enlist many other people, elected or otherwise . So much of healthcare has been addressed by states. Remembering the slog ACA was.

[Perseus]

34. It is not that the have ceded that ground to Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren

It is that people are finally catching up to the fact that the rest is just bull and rhetoric, it is the same old crap politicians have been feeding voters for ages, and I know Biden supporters won't like this, but Biden falls into the "same old rhetoric" group, the same fantasy land "I can negotiate with the Republicans", yes anyone can negotiate with republicans as long as they give in to all the things republicans want, you really don't have to be a great negotiator to do that, just like the creature and Kim Jon Un, where the creature has lost all negotiations, even though the creature doesn't seem to know he did.

[ancianita]

36. YUP. Doesn't matter what the source is. What matters is the idea. This captures last night in spirit

There's nothing wrong with the YES WE CAN crowd, no matter which candidates are in it.

Go Bernie and Liz!

[JI7]

37. they are currently serving senators so why haven't they done it ?

Sanders has been there forever with little to show for it.

plus i don't care for his pro gun votes.

[George II]

69. Not to mention some of his other votes, too.

[lapucelle]

38. "I get a little bit tired of Democrats afraid of big ideas. Republicans are not afraid of big ideas"

was not helpful.

"We are the Democrats. "We are not about trying to take away health care from anyone."

was helpful.

E Warren last night was in a class of her own.

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/1287218820

[melman]

40. "we can't choose a candidate we don't believe in just because we're too scared to do anything else"

"But here’s where we are. I get it. There is a lot at stake, and people are scared. But we can’t choose a candidate we don’t believe in just because we’re too scared to do anything else. And we can’t ask other people to vote for a candidate we don’t believe in. Democrats win when we figure out what is right and we get out there and fight for it. I am not afraid, and for Democrats to win, you can’t be afraid either."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/elizabeth-warren-i-am-not-afraid-democratic-debate/595135/

Link to tweet

[lapucelle]

42. And? Is there a part where she says the Republicans are not afraid of big ideas? N/T

[melman]

43. And Sanders and Warren said the same thing

But you choose to frame one negatively and not the other. It's all very transparent and quite ridiculous.

[lapucelle]

44. "We are the Democrats".

That's what E Warren said.

[melman]

47. Yeah

To John Delaney who was attacking Medicare for All.

--

Delaney: “They’re running on telling half the country that your health insurance is illegal, it says that right in [Sanders’s Medicare for All] bill.”

Warren interjects, accusing Delaney of helping Trump win: “We are the Democrats. We are not trying to take away health care from anyone. That’s what Republicans are trying to do. We should stop using Republican talking points.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/31/democrats-intense-health-care-debate-paraphrased/



Everyone who watched the debate knows this was the context.

[lapucelle]

51. So? Why on earth would anyone on that debate stage directly praise Republicans?

E Warren's clapback was excellent. She reminded both voters and everyone on the stage and in the venue:

"We are the Democrats".

[lapucelle]

45. I'm not "framing". I'm directly quoting.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

56. Gotta love Elizabeth!!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[silentEcho]

53. Warren has always been strong Democratic Party Leader. Sanders has never been a Democrat.

Two different people.

[lapucelle]

58. The Guardian article in the OP link was written by socialist / Jill Stein acolyte Bhaskar Sunkara.

[sheshe2]

67. Yes.

And Warren has said in no uncertain terms that she is not a Socialist. BS is the only one that claims that title.

[lapucelle]

70. The author in the OP's link identifies as a socialist. He doesn't seem to vote for Democrats often.

[lapucelle]

74. Sunkara: I wouldn't vote for many Democrats, but here's one who I'd love to see beat the Republican.

[sheshe2]

77. OP's author of the article admits not to voting for Democrats all that often.

Why should we listen to anything he has to say.

Also read elsewhere that he has scrubbed his twitter feed. You don't do that unless you have something to hide.

[NurseJackie]

82. David Sirota scrubbed his Twitter feed too, didn't he? I wonder why.

[sheshe2]

85. Yes he did.

Somewhere I read that many were preserved and were pretty ugly and not Pro-Democrat.

Wasn't he hired by BS as communications director? Was he one of the ones that voted for Stein?

[George II]

87. More than 20,000 tweets deleted just hours after being officially being announced....

....that he was hired as BS' speechwriter, although he'd been working for the campaign for almost two months.

Along with the many anti-Democratic tweets were many denying he had anything to do with the campaign.

[NurseJackie]

88. Sirota has no ethics. If I hired him for anything, people would certainly be justified to question...

Sirota has no ethics. If I hired him for anything, people would certainly be justified to question my judgement with regard to the type of people I trust. (But, take my word, he's definitely NOT someone that I'd hire. Yuk!)

[ehrnst]

89. +1000.

[still_one]

52. NO. It's Elizabeth Warren and the DEMOCRATS, against the divisive candidate who hired people to

high positions in that campaign who not only voted for Jill Stein, but encouraged others to do likewise, and why THAT candidate won’t be the Democratic nominee, because people don’t forget

[silentEcho]

54. Who just ignores Sanders top people Stein voters?

[ehrnst]

65. +1000.

[Autumn]

71. Strange. She wasn't talking to that candidate, she was talking to the Democrat Delaney.

Actually, she kind of kicked Delameys ass. But in the nicest way.

[George II]

72. Yes indeed...

Nina Turner, national co-chair - voted for Jill Stein
Briahna Joy Gray, national press secretary - voted for Jill Stein
David Sirota, senior advisor and speechwriter - voted for Jill Stein

[lapucelle]

75. E Warren was speaking to voters.

She was reminding everybody of exactly who she is and exactly who we are.

It was a message of unity, rather than division. And she certainly didn't draw any comparisons that explicitly praised Republicans over Democrats.

[myohmy2]

61. fear-mongering?

" Despite statistically insignificant support, he got plenty of airtime, saying his progressive opponents (both Sanders and Warren) were committing political suicide and that they didn’t stand a chance in a general election. "

" Hickenlooper zeroed in on Senator Sanders: “Socialism is not the answer. Don’t let extremism give Trump four more years.” "

...when right-wing Dems use words like, '...committing political suicide', '...didn’t stand a chance in a general election.'...'Don't let extremism give Trump four more years.', aren't they fear-mongering?

...it sure sounds like it to me...

[still_one]

62. Elizabeth Warren: 'I am not a' Democratic Socialist"

"Washington (CNN)Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren said Saturday that she is not a Democratic Socialist, drawing a line between herself and her Senate colleague and 2020 opponent Bernie Sanders whose views draw frequent comparisons between the two.
Warren made the comment at an event at South by Southwest in Austin, Texas, where she was being interviewed by writer Anand Giridharadas, who asked her to explain the "crux of the difference" between her views and those of Sanders, an independent from Vermont who identifies as a Democratic Socialist. She also declined to go into details of a conversation she had with Sanders in which he reportedly discouraged her from running for president."


https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/09/politics/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-south-by-southwest/index.html

[silentEcho]

63. +1.

[ehrnst]

64. She's certainly more qualified to make that distinction than others who

can't.

[sheshe2]

68. +++

[George II]

73. In his own words:

[NurseJackie]

83. Yeps his very own words. Thank you.

[still_one]

76. Perhaps the Guardian should focus what is happening in their own back yard, instead of posting

editorials by non-Democrats, making supposed observations about Democrats, when that person isn't even one

[melman]

80. That's an interesting take

Should the NY Times shut down their London bureau? Should the Washington Post? Or does this only apply to the Guardian.

[lapucelle]

90. Bhaskar Sunkara isn't a journalist. He doesn't work for an overseas news division of the Guardian.

Bhaskar Sunkara is a self-promoting pseudo socialist who sells his manifesto via Amazon. How subversive!

He is not a reporter, not a Democrat, and not on our side.

Like Sirota, he's tried to disappear any record of exactly where he stood in 2016 when we were fighting Trump, but the internet is smarter than he is.

The smug "capitalism for me but not for thee" semi-socialist Bhaskar Sunkara proudly states on November 7, 2016 that he wouldn't vote for many Democrats.

Why is anybody at DU linking to his garbage at the Guardian or at his "magazine" Jacobin?

[sheshe2]

81. So now we are posting Stein supporter articles about our candidates?

I think I just fell through the rabbit hole.

[NurseJackie]

84. Stand by. More craziness to come.

No doubt.

[sheshe2]

86. I am sure you are right, NJ.