Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumBernie Talks Like a Jewish Man from Brooklyn and You Need to Get Over It
(snip)
Right now we have a dysfunctional healthcare system [with] 500,000 Americans every year going bankrupt, he said, his voice growing louder with each word. Sanders spoke emphatically of the injustice in forcing patients to face both their health issues and outrageous hospital bills.
(snip)
As the pundits weighed in, some Jewish Americans pointed out that the way Sanders speaks is just how a lot of Jewish people, particularly those from Brooklyn, speak. Some said that perceiving his speech patterns as inherently angry or abrasive was ignorant at best and anti-Semitic at worst. Following the debate, many American Jews voiced their disappointment over critiques against Sanderss speech patterns:
While linguist and professor of contemporary Jewish Studies at Hebrew Union College Sarah Bunin Benor said she doesnt believe these critiques of Sanderss speech are inherently anti-Semitic, she does agree that they reveal an unfamiliarity with the way Jews, particularly Jewish New Yorkers, speak. The idea that arguing is part of how we as Jews speak, and the idea that Jews talk a lot with their hands has been the popular understanding of Jewish language for many decades, she said.
For example, what some may see as Sanders interrupting others, Benor describes as overlapping or cooperative overlapping in Jewish speech. Overlapping is not only not considered rude, but is often used as a way to display solidarity and protect intimacy amongst speakers, according to a 1984 study called Jewish Argument as Sociability. According to a 2008 survey Benor conducted, 47 percent of Jews report having been told their style of speech was too aggressive, compared to 36 percent of non-Jews.
(snip)
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a35w3z/bernie-sanders-angry-accent-jewish-brooklyn
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
still_one
(92,058 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,264 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Jopin Klobe
(779 posts)... and ... HA! ...
... most apropos ...
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and that they do for valid, honorable reasons.
I find the posting of this article here, with its "YOU" and its accusations of antisemitism and "NY" dogwhistles, offensive, and my Jewish husband does also.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,264 posts)I have over 46,000 here, it shouldn't be difficult.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and most people aren't even paying attention.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,264 posts)Peace to you Hortensis.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... supporters (and the campaign itself) are trying to make excuses and address all the imagined problems, slights, conspiracies, insults... and put the blame anywhere except where it actually belongs. The campaign's expectations were too high and they simply don't seem to be prepared to accept (or to make meaningful adjustments in response to) the reality of where they find themselves now. As far as the campaign goes, I see poor planning, bad analysis and evaluations, and flawed responses. And based on the lackluster and steadily declining poll numbers, I believe that's what the rest of the country is seeing too.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BannonsLiver
(16,284 posts)I must admit I enjoy the flailing about. The desperate search for answers as to why its just not working this time. This particular theory in the OP is pure comedy.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Gothmog
(144,869 posts)It was sad.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)Vice's resident expert fails to take into account the role of gender in discourse patterns, an issue that is at the heart of much of Dr. Tannen's work.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5523ffe4e4b012b2c4ebd8fc/t/56ddaf3fab48defc357acdf0/1457368895228/Tannen-NewYorkJewishConversationalStyle.pdf
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Most Jewish men from Brooklyn have a sense of humor.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,264 posts)But he is exceptionally serious when it comes to policies which affect the American People.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Now you're just fucking with us.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,264 posts)and no I'm not.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BeyondGeography
(39,339 posts)That was fucking funny.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,308 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
elleng
(130,695 posts)(THO still undecided.)
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
pangaia
(24,324 posts)much time in manhattan, brooklyn queens bronx (yankee stadium, ah hem) was on the presbyterian team in the local 'church basketball league.. the jewish community center, and the catholic church teams always whipped our ass.
yeah bernie sounds like a brooklyn guy but to me he also sound angry all the time. I strongly supported him in 2016, for what that is worth., but, as right or wrong as he may be, i just don't like listening to the constant... whatever it is
doesn't mena he would or wouldn't be a good president...
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Uncle Joe
(58,264 posts)to me that's a major distinction than just being angry.
Link to tweet
I believe the times call for righteous anger and am firmly of the belief that Bernie would be a great President.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
pangaia
(24,324 posts)i just get tired of the same timbre all the time.
that's just me....
i have always drummed to a different groove than those around me....
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Peace to you pangaia.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
pangaia
(24,324 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
lunasun
(21,646 posts)inequality
Why do they seem soooo angry?
If you are not saying something nice or as a joke and pointing out serious uncomfortable facts , well then you seem too much of a downer
All because you brought uncomfortable facts in to their daisy sunshine world they wanted to ignore
He asked the right question -why doesnt that anger you?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
stonecutter357
(12,693 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)....it's a BROOKLYN/NYC accent, not a Jewish Brooklyn accent. Plus, we Brooklynites, Jewish or not, don't interrupt people indiscriminately
or point. I was raised in Brooklyn and was taught by my parents that pointing is very rude.
My mother and father sounded a lot like him (accent-wise, they were always happy) and my older brother sounds like him. I consciously got rid of my Brooklyn/NYC accent in my teens, I hated the way New Yorkers sound, as do many Americans.
Finally, he hasn't lived in Brooklyn for about fifty years, surprised he hasn't lost that accent yet.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bluewater
(5,376 posts)"I consciously got rid of my Brooklyn/NYC accent in my teens, I hated the way New Yorkers sound, as do many Americans."
Hate?
Hate how New Yorkers sound?
As do many Americans?
Personally, I love regional accents and I don't hate how any of my fellow Americans sound when they speak.
I thank my parents for raising me and my siblings to appreciate and embrace cultural diversity, including regional speech patterns.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,264 posts)I believe our cultural diversity adds to our power.
I also believe it simply makes life more exciting.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bluewater
(5,376 posts)"I consciously got rid of my Brooklyn/NYC accent in my teens, I hated the way New Yorkers sound, as do many Americans."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bluewater
(5,376 posts)I think I quoted that several times.
You hated the way New Yorkers sound and consciously "got rid" of your own Brooklyn/NYC accent.
You not only stated that you hated how New Yorkers sound but then added "as do many Americans".
Why did you add that? I do not think that is true for any reasonable definition of "many Americans". Americans embrace the richness of our shared national cultural tapestry.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
melman
(7,681 posts)It does indeed. I'd say it's revealing but it doesn't really reveal anything I didn't already know.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)Have you met my friend Professor Labov?
https://oxfordre.com/linguistics/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199384655.001.0001/acrefore-9780199384655ne-364#acrefore-9780199384655-e-364-div1-6
https://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/sociolinguistics/labov/
https://www.ukessays.com/essays/linguistics/study-york-accent-2999.php
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/magazine/the-big-city-can-we-talk.html
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
and yes.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,308 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)snip==================================================================
https://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/sociolinguistics/labov/
https://www.ukessays.com/essays/linguistics/study-york-accent-2999.php
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/magazine/the-big-city-can-we-talk.html
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Personally, I'm glad that BS has such a thick NY accent. I hope he NEVER changes. With regard to the actual reason WHY I feel that way, well... I'll just keep that to myself. (People who know me well will understand how I feel, and that's all that matters.)
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)with so many experts.
Who knew?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I'm sure it's frustrating for you and any one else who ACTUALLY knows what they're talking about. But I do get some mild satisfaction in having confirmed and reinforced my belief that the BS campaign is struggling, that his supporters know it, and are (apparently) willing to engage in the most absurd manner of dismissive insults and lame accusations of antisemitism in an effort to explain away the fact that the BS poll numbers continue to stall or decline and that BS is having trouble in developing a foothold or gaining traction.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)And according to William Labov, we are not alone.
Labov also found (in separate interviews) that only one third of New Yorkers liked their accent and most were under the impression that the other Americans dislike the accent in general (Tierney, 1995).
I owe my parents a debt of gratitude for raising me in a place where there was so much cultural diversity that we simply learned to respect everybody without reference to differences and for teaching me to be neither sneeringly judgemental nor deliberately obtuse when it comes to other people's point of view.
https://www.ukessays.com/essays/linguistics/study-york-accent-2999.php
https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~wlabov/home.html
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)...to learn that I was from New York City. "Where's that horrible accent?"
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)on speaker phone so everyone could hear my NY accent. I'd hear them laughing!
Sociolinguistics pioneer William Labov's groundbreaking research confirms your instincts about and observations on the NY dialect .
I've referenced his writings often, but mostly regarding his work on establishing AAVE as a nonstandard rule- governed dialect rather than "lazy, bad, or stupid" English. His work has had a major impact on advancing policy that promotes equity in education.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)Have you met my friend William? He did ground breaking research that confirmed that
Hate how New Yorkers sound
and that many New Yorkers think that
Americans hate
The way New Yorkers sound
As well.
https://oxfordre.com/linguistics/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199384655.001.0001/acrefore-9780199384655-e-364
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bluewater
(5,376 posts)Not surprising, but very sad and shows the damage a bigoted and xenophobic society can do to ethnic sub-groups.
As a center of immigration for literally centuries, New York City and its immigrant residents have been the objects of scorn and distain and had developed a negatively skewed self image apparently. So I guess it makes sense that some New Yorkers have a skewed self image.
What is shocking is that Labov claims this self hatred extends to 2/3rds of all New Yorkers?
Labov also found (in separate interviews) that only one third of New Yorkers liked their accent and most were under the impression that the other Americans dislike the accent in general.
Has any other study confirmed that 66% of New Yorkers hate their accents? Honestly, having lived in NYC, the vast majority of people seemed pretty non-self hating and seem oblivious to accents in general. I know people that code-switch between accents based on social interactions, but no one I knew personally "hated how they sound" or felt they had to "get rid" of their original accent. That sounds like an extremely skewed negative self image frankly, and there is no way 66% of New Yorkers hold that degree of self-loathing.
Can I ask what was the size of Labov's study that found 66% of New Yorkers hate their accent?
But yes, it is wonderful that I love regional accents and don't hate how my fellow Americans sound.
And it is sad that xenophobic attitudes directed at immigrant cities like NYC have made some of their residents feel less than their whole selves.
Thank you for pointing out that xenophobia directed at them has given some New Yorkers a negatively skewed self image. Those people need our support to restore their self esteem and validate their sense of self worth. We should all be their allies.
In 2019, no American should feel or be made to feel self-conscious about their regional or ethnic speech patterns.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)***************************************************************************************
If you'd like to know more about about Labov's fundamental methodology, you can begin here:
http://www.sfs.uni-tuebingen.de/~Roland/Literature/Labov(08)_quantitative_reasoning_in_linguistics.pdf
*****************************************************************************************
If you'd like to know more about Labov's impact on the reaearch in the field, you can read much of volume 1 of Current Issues in Linguistic Theory's celebration of his life's work (Towards a Social Science of Language: Papers in Honor of William Labov) here:
https://bit.ly/2KlQhRJ
*****************************************************************************************
If you have access to an academic research data base like Jstor, it's not difficult to find academic reviews Dr. Labov's ground breaking dissertation The Social Stratification of English in New York, written in 1966 and updated and revised in 2006. You can read the abstract for free at ERIC or send $5 to CAL for a print copy of the dissertation.
https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED012927
OFFICE OF THE CENTER FOR APPLIED LINGUISTICS,
1717 MASSACHUSETTS AVENUE, N.W.,
WASHINGTON, D.C., 20036
*****************************************************************************************
You can watch some of Dr. Labov's spirited Congressional testimony in the service of advancing equity in education through a better understanding of AAVE (called at the time "Ebonics" ) as a rule-generated variation of non-standard English here:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4460330/labov-senate-hearing-ebonics-education
*****************************************************************************************
While Professor Labov no longer teaches classes, you can still reach him at his office if you would like to interrogate him personally on his methodology and his shocking claims.
https://www.ling.upenn.edu/people/labov
I'm sure he'd love to hear about your thoughts concerning New Yorkers as a marginalized ethic sub-group subject to self-loathing due to xenophobia. Don't forget to send him your data first so he can be more fully grounded in your theory!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bluewater
(5,376 posts)This would explain the result's Labov claims in regards to 66% of New Yorkers hating their accent.
As a center of immigration for literally centuries, New York City and its immigrant residents have been the objects of scorn and distain and had developed a negatively skewed self image apparently. So I guess it makes sense that some New Yorkers have a skewed self image and have come to be self-loathing to the point of hating their accents.
But still, that 66% figure seems incredibly high.
So what was the size of Labov's Study? It's a simple Question.
Labov says 66% of New Yorkers hate their accent. That seems quite a remarkable claim.
Again, instead of a plethora of words and links that avoids answering the question, please just tell us the size of that study.
And Skewed self image as a result of bigotry and xenophobia is also a well studied area. Perhaps the most familiar example is the Doll Experiment:
The Clark Doll Experiment (1939) was an experiment done by Dr. Kenneth Clark and his wife Mamie where they asked black children to choose between a black doll and a white doll. The dolls were the same except for their skin color but most thought the white doll was nicer.
In 1954 in Brown v Board of Education the experiment helped to persuade the American Supreme Court that separate but equal schools for blacks and whites were anything but equal in practice and therefore against the law. It was the beginning of the end of Jim Crow.
In the experiment Clark showed black children between the ages of six and nine two dolls, one white and one black, and then asked these questions in this order: Show me the doll that you like best or that youd like to play with, Show me the doll that is the nice doll, Show me the doll that looks bad, Give me the doll that looks like a white child, Give me the doll that looks like a colored child, Give me the doll that looks like a Negro child, Give me the doll that looks like you.
Negro and colored were both common words for blacks before the 1960s.
The last question was the worst since by that point most black children had picked the black doll as the bad one. In 1950 44% said the white doll looked like them! In past tests, however, many children would refuse to pick either doll or just start crying and run away.
In one study Clark gave the test to 300 children in different parts of the country. He found that black children who went to segregated schools, those separated by race, were more likely to pick the white doll as the nice one.
In the test that he did that became part of Brown v Board he asked 16 black children in 1950 in Clarendon County, South Carolina. Of these 63% said the white doll was the nice one, the one they wanted to play with.
Clark also asked children to colour a picture of themselves. Most chose a shade of brown markedly lighter than themselves.
agirllikemeIn 2005 Kiri Davis repeated the experiment in Harlem as part of her short but excellent film, A Girl Like Me. She asked 21 children and 71% told her that the white doll was the nice one. Not a huge sample size, true, but it was still shocking to see how easily many chose the white doll.
In 2009 after Obama became president, Good Morning America on ABC did the test. They asked 19 black children from Norfolk, Virginia. It is hard to compare their numbers because they allowed both and neither as an answer. They also asked the last question first, making it far easier to answer: 88% said the black doll looked most like them.
ABC added a question too: Which doll is pretty? The boys said both, but 47% of the black girls said the white doll was the pretty one.
https://alitucke.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/the-clark-doll-experiment/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)that has passed rigorous academic muster for the past 50 years, look through your bookshelves at home for a copy of his dissertation, find it via the data bases at your academic institution, or order a copy.
Let us know your findings!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bluewater
(5,376 posts)So you can't tell us the size of Labov's Study saying 66% of NYers hate their accent?
Then what were all those links you provided for? A distraction?
When asked to provide some basic information about a Labov study YOU are touting you replied: "I am not your research assistant."
Sorry, but that is not how a discussion works, I do not have to VALIDATE YOUR CLAIMS, that onus is on you.
In any case, thank you for the discussion.
You have convinced me that some New Yorkers, probably due to systemic bigotry and xenophobia directed at them and their city, suffer a degree of self-loathing where they hate their accents. I just can't quite accept at face value Labov's claim that 66% of all New Yorkers hate their accent.
Thanks again for the discussion.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)Dr. Labov has written at length concerning the the usefulness and limitations of quantitative studies in qualitative analysis within the social sciences.
Folks should read Labov's basic papers on methodology before asking questions analogous to, "Who is this Einstein, and why should I "believe" a theory supported by one eclipse alone?"
The internet is so interesting.
The superficial musings of a Vice reporter on the topic of discourse studies brings out out all manner of folk defending their instantly formed theories of sociolinguistics, some going so far as to call into question the work of an esteemed expert who throughout his life has used his position and platform to advance equity in education by helping layman to understand the impact of the stigmatization of non-standard English on local school curriculum policy.
I feel like shaking my head, but instead I'll tip my hat to William Labov, founding father of sociolinguistics. Today is not the first time.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bluewater
(5,376 posts)So you don't have to tell us the size of Labov's study claiming 66% of New Yorkers hate their accent and whether or not it has been independently confirmed ?!?
Got it.
Are you also telling us that Labov does not have to quantitatively support his claim that 66% of New Yorkers HATE their accent?
"Dr. Labov has written at length concerning the the usefulness and limitations of quantitative studies in qualitative analysis within the social sciences."
Okie Dokie...
then why did he make such an incredible QUANTITATIVE CLAIM that 66% of all New Yorkers HATE their accent?
You presented a quantitative claim made by Labov and are now arguing that there are "limitations" to "quantitative studies in qualitative analysis within the social sciences".
Thank you for proving my point.
I think there is not much to say past this point in the discussion.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)Dennis Preston conducted surveys that re-affirmed Labov's findings in the 1990s. He notes:
A quantitative method for calculating linguistic insecurity was first introduced in Labovs "The social stratification of English in New York City", but refined and extended to gender in Peter Trudgills "Sex, covert prestige and linguistic change in the urban British English of Norwich" in Language in Society 1 (1972), pp. 179-95.
I again encourage you to actually read Dr. Labov's work before making unsupported accusatory claims concerning his methodology.
https://bit.ly/2T7hcVE
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)Several journals have current calls for papers. I'm sure any number of them would be happy to publish your findings!
https://linguistlist.org/pubs/journals/browse-calls1.cfm
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bluewater
(5,376 posts)Has this study been independently confirmed?
In any case, thank you for the discussion.
You have convinced me that some New Yorkers, probably due to systemic bigotry and xenophobia directed at them and their city, suffer a degree of self-loathing where they hate their accents. I just can't quite accept at face value Labov's claim that 66% of all New Yorkers hate their accent.
Thanks again for the discussion.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BannonsLiver
(16,284 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
pangaia
(24,324 posts)The L A Dodgers are fake
there IS no such thing...
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)....at Ebbets Field (we were less than two miles from there), one of my favorite memories.
BTW, the Dodgers played the MILWAUKEE Braves and I saw Hank Aaron play that night.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pangaia
(24,324 posts)i spent many, many afternoons at the REAL Yankee Stadium--was there one of the days the Mick hit the facade in right field...even swt mantle and DiMaggio play together.
But one memory I will NEVER forget was the one time I went to Ebbets field..in the mid 1950's
You know the rest of the story...
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)....doubleheaders my brother and I went to. We were living in Queens by that time, the ride home on the subway was almost two hours, but back then (late 50s/early 60s) it was safe to ride home in the dark. The 4th of July doubleheader between the Tigers and Yankees in 1961 is another one that sticks in my mind - there were 76,000 people there that day! Yankees won the first and went into first place, lost the second and dropped back to second.
Great lineups back then - there was one game where five or six players EACH hit two home runs.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pangaia
(24,324 posts)I grew up in Teaneck so to get to Yankee Stadium it was the Intercitry bus to the GWB.. then A train to.. somewhere.. then switch to the D train to the Grand Concourse...
then GREEN RED and WHITE !!!
A baseball field is perfection..
1961 was the M&M boys year...
"Now batting for the Yankees,...... the center fielder,...... number 7,...... Mickey... Mantle.... number 7."
on another note-----
I can still remember the smell of the mens rooms
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)....I was stunned with the green of the field. Living in Brooklyn at the time, we didn't have front lawns or grass in the backyard. The only grass we ever saw was on occasional visits to a park, which was more concrete than brown grass anyway.
Bob Sheppard was the greatest, all business and his announcements of the players was exactly the same every single time. He was the only announcer I knew back then, he was there for 59 years!
I don't remember the mens room.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pangaia
(24,324 posts)and having that first view of a baseball field. I only go to minor league games now, Short-season A, double-A and triple A are all nearby... I'm lucky.
The men's rooms smelled similar to the tunnel between the parking lot and Jones Beach...
Did you ever read WAIT UNTIL NEXT YEAR by Doris Kearns Goodwin? A short, spectacular memoir of growing up in Brooklyn as a Dodgers fan..
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)...."Boys of Summer".
About ten years ago I got that rush you talk about. I was in California on a business trip and decided to FINALLY get to Dodger Stadium. What a feeling walking into that (now) historic stadium and seeing the Dodgers at home again. I thought of my father through most of the game.
Over the years I was lucky enough to get to some great old stadiums. The REAL Yankee Stadium, Ebbets Field, the Polo Grounds for the first two years of the Mets existence, Wrigley Field, the ORIGINAL Comisky Park, Fenway Park, and four of the six old hockey Arenas, too.
Back in 1991 I was on a trip and landed in San Francisco about 5PM. My first thought was to go to a game, Oakland was in town. I got there for the bottom of the first inning. It turned out to be Nolan Ryan's sixth no-hitter (still have the ticket and photograph of the Rangers carrying him off the field)
I could go on for hours.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Me too.
maybe we better hand the thread back over....
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)....of one of the more exciting games I ever saw, Nolan Ryan's no-hitter against Oakand. The poor guy sitting next to me was a season ticket holder but promised his wife he'd be home early. Missed the last two innings! The top photograph is the scoreboard at the end of the game (fuzzy, this was 1990), second was Ryan being carried off the field. Ex-Yankee Willie Randolph (and future manager) hit a foul pop up down the first base line for the final out.
Look at the price of the ticket!!!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
elleng
(130,695 posts)I'm STILL a Brooklyn Dodger!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
murielm99
(30,712 posts)who have worked hard to get rid of their Southern accents. The ones I have met have moved to other parts of the country where people judge them by their accent. They think Southern accents mean that the speaker is a racist or a redneck.
We don't always relate well to people from other parts of the country or the world, do we?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)isn't rude, George. It's cooperative overlapping...except when it isn't.
In contrast, an interruptive overlap is a competitive strategy in which one of the speakers attempts to dominate the conversation.
Linguistics is a serious field, and Deborah Tannen is a serious researcher and scholar.
Here's what Dr. Tannen has to say about your point, George:
To see sociolinguistics reduced to a superficial Vice.com opinion piece is truly stunning.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5523ffe4e4b012b2c4ebd8fc/t/56ddaf3fab48defc357acdf0/1457368895228/Tannen-NewYorkJewishConversationalStyle.pdf
http://ip-klaeden.selfhost.eu/tina/Studium/Anglistik/Gender%20Language/Gender%20Language.html#kap34
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5523ffe4e4b012b2c4ebd8fc/t/56fae0e82eeb817eecbc532e/1459282153444/2015+Discourse+and+Gender.pdf
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
hlthe2b
(102,096 posts)including his young supporters, who, you might think would be bothered by that if it were actually an issue.
I've lived all over, but I can't say that I'd ever stereotyped that type of speech nor manner as "Jewish." Maybe a product of a time period for some white males, but I really would not have put an ethnic association on it.
Seems like a pretty unnecessarily divisive issue being promoted by the article ...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pangaia
(24,324 posts)closer to flatbush
Pee Wee The Duke, Jackie, et all.....
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Odoreida
(1,549 posts)Not my first choice this time around, but I'll be happy (not just grudgingly willing) to vote for him come November 2020 if it works out that way.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pangaia
(24,324 posts)maybe that's the REAL: American sound.. like the Kyoto sound is the REAL Japanese sound. NOT the Tokyo sound.
LOL
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)I cant remember once it being his accent
Maybe I missed something.
And while I dont care for him, I find the accent refreshing. Not his specific one but that he has one.
Just in my lifetime I have witnessed the regression of regional accents as the media becomes more pervasive. When visiting my family back in Louisiana and Arkansas the richness of the older folks accents are much more noticeable than in their grandkids. Compared to my mother I sound like a northern. Well, not really. When up north they always comment on my accent.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)I'm from the south and my wife from New York. I found out years ago they love southern accents so I exaggerate mine for extra attention in restaurants.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)I once attended meetings in Canada. At a social event after the meetings I found myself being asked all kinds of questions by the others in the room. To the point of embarrassment. I commented on it to be told they just like listening to the way I talk! And I really dont have much of my accent left!
Although there was alcohol involved and that always brings it out!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)I worked in radio for some years and worked to mute the accent. Other people in the south think I'm midwestern. Northeners hear a slight hint of it. But I know how to turn it on and off, y'all.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)But I always use standard English grammar. I cant stand aint and such. Well ok, of course I use yall!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)I've found southern colloquialisms go over real well. Tell a northern women she looks sweet enough to pour on plate and sop up with a biscuit and she's suddenly your best friend.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Have a nice evening. Weve hijacked this thread enough!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)I've learned to just continue talking but with my voice raised. They think THAT's rude, LOL!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
warmfeet
(3,321 posts)I will vote for him, without hesitation, in the general election.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pnwmom
(108,951 posts)To people from the NY/NJ/CT area, their accents probably sound very distinct.
But to many of us non-NewYorkers, they sound too close for comfort. The main difference is that Bernie is more consistent in the accent; Trump's comes out more in speeches.
From a linguistics lab at the University of Texas, Austin:
http://sites.utexas.edu/lrc/2016/03/20/two-candidates-one-accent/?fbclid=IwAR3P0iTuFAcZ5KsIMpWGjuPXYM97u9_kX-woWedPoMdbRryPsA3p2SyzVgk
Two Candidates One Accent
Posted on March 20, 2016
When judged by their policies, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump may be as different as any of the 2016 presidential candidates. But linguistically, they are surprisingly similar, united by their New York City accents. Nonetheless, our analyses of their speech patterns reveal some significant differences in how their NYC accents become stronger or weaker in different settings, namely interviews, speeches, and debates: Trump adapts his speech to certain factors, while Sanders does not.
The NYC accent is famous among American English dialects. It is often portrayed in films and television series, and a number of notable celebrities are identifiable with the accent, such as Joan Rivers, Danny DeVito, Woody Allen, and Leah Remini. Thus, most English speakers in the United States can imitate a speaker from NYC, or at least how they perceive this speaker to sound. In fact, the prized aggressiveness that comes with Trumps and Sanders NYC accents has been noted by researchers in linguistics.
SNIP
Both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders are easily categorizable and recognizable as speakers of NYC English, showing high usage levels for all of the features we studied.
Trump is a pliable adapter and linguistic performer who alters his speech depending on whom he speaks to and in what contexts. He shows the highest usage levels for New York accent features when giving political speeches and when addressing audiences in New York.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SouthernProgressive
(1,810 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)Actually I like the way he speaks and holds discussions. 'Loud' doesn't turn me off either...it's all relative.
The Brooklyn Accent, ('Toity-toid Street'), Actress Clara Bow, Speech Teacher Edith Skinner and the Mid-Atlantic Accent
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-a-fake-british-accent-took-old-hollywood-by-storm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Bow
The only clip with a slight accent I found. ('cwoffee')
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dhol82
(9,351 posts)His time is over.
However, he makes an excellent senator.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jopin Klobe
(779 posts)... Garry and/or Penny Marshall ...
... listen to them ...
... they ain't Jewish ...
... they's I-talian ...
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
RandySF
(58,413 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
still_one
(92,058 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
katmondoo
(6,454 posts)Bernie is never happy
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Only know Jews from tv shows, written and produced by other Jewish people. I love the humor. Thanks Mel Brooks and Billy Crystal among many others.
No hate. No anti semetism. Just a lack of real life interactions. Not everything is bad.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... There are many other reasons for me to not support him. Thank you very much.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SurfinBetty
(38 posts)It's very patronizing to tell me to get over something and pretend like an accent is the reason I wouldn't vote for someone.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
myohmy2
(3,137 posts)...starting to feel the burn again...
...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)For being the only non-christian candidate out there. If anyone thinks that his being Jewish has nothing to do with how he's treated in this age where white supremacists are on the rise (and in the white House) they should really step back and reevaluate things.
As for being angry, yeah, he's angry. I'm angry, everyone should be angry. Painting angry as bad is a classic tactic of suppression. It's why I like Warren, she gets angry too. Harris gets angry, which is very bold for her, and Obama really opened the door for her and Booker to show emotion. JB never seems angry, and I really don't feel like he'd fight for our rights like others.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,308 posts)If you are not outraged you are not paying attention
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)For being the only non-christian candidate out there.
I guess that type of knee-jerk defense (smear, insult and attack) is easy because it doesn't require as much thought. I assure you, the many reasons that I reject BS have absolutely nothing to do with his accent or his religion.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)...both Baptist and Hindu. In fact, her first job after college was at Jewish General Hospital in Montreal.
Hmm, did you just do what you're talking about others doing?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
JudyM
(29,181 posts)Interesting that some rely on this as part of their routine commentary.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
If seeing oligarchs and white supremacists run amok and no climate urgency isn't enough for anger, I can't help ya.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
comradebillyboy
(10,128 posts)that it borders on being anti-Semitic.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)...a positive light on Jews, especially Brooklyn/NYC Jews. In fact it's downright negative about Brooklyn Jews, quite offensive.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Agreed. The fact that anyone would glom-on to this as a way to defend BS tells me that his supporters (and indeed his campaign itself) is running short of things that will explain or justify his precipitous fall in the polls, and to explain why it is that he continues to lose traction.
It's a lazy defense that insults the intelligence of others who have perfectly valid reasons for not supporting (or for disliking BS). It speaks of a campaign that's in trouble when they resort to insulting those who disagree with him and accusing them of being superficial or anti-Semites.
That's no way to run a winning campaign. As a party (and as a nation) I think we can do better. The cream of the crop is already starting to rise to the top. We're getting a good feel for the type of candidate that the party (and our nation) want to support. The rest of the campaigns will fade away quickly (we hope) and others will desperately hang on for a long as they can until they succumb to a loss of support and/or donors to the point that it's no longer a viable campaign.
Fact of the matter is, it's just not a winning strategy for a national campaign (and its supporters) to hurl blanket and broadbrush insults and smears against those who support someone else.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Danascot
(4,689 posts)so welcomed by Vermonters.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Princetonian
(1,501 posts)1. "Sanders Viewed Most Favorably of 2020 Democratic Candidates" (July 20, 2019)
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/07/20/man-can-beat-trump-sanders-viewed-most-favorably-2020-democratic-candidates
2. He was the most likeable candidate during the 2016 election season as well:
"While Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump register as the most unpopular presidential nominees ever, there remains a real fondness for the guy Clinton beat in the primary."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/19/the-most-popular-politician-in-america-might-just-be-a-socialist/?utm_term=.036b4c625573
3. "Black Voters Like Bernie Sanders Just Fine They Just Might Like Other Candidates More"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/black-voters-like-bernie-sanders-just-fine-they-just-might-like-other-candidates-more/
4. "BERNIE SANDERS IS THE MOST POPULAR 2020 CANDIDATE AMONG HISPANIC VOTERS, NEW POLLING FINDS" https://theintercept.com/2019/04/06/bernie-sanders-latino-hispanic-voters
Nothing wrong with Bernie. Haters gonna hate but sadly for them the fact remains that a large majority of Democratic voters like him, me included.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,264 posts)Peace to you.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Princetonian
(1,501 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)What is it about Biden that you like better about the "most likeable" candidate?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
marble falls
(56,974 posts)he can beat Trump.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Response to Uncle Joe (Original post)
Post removed
BlueWI
(1,736 posts)At some point, wasn't there preference expressed for positive statements about your own candidate as opposed to random news items from four years ago?
At some point the whole country has to be challenged to repudiate its current trends toward oligarchy and re-emergent white supremacy. The role of Sanders in calling out oligarchy was way ahead of the pack in 2015 and the message remains relevant with economic inequality continuing to trend the wrong way. Whoever wins the nom needs to lean into this issue, to say the least, or we will be at 1890s levels of wealth inequality. Not confident that's a fight Biden will take on.
So I don't have any problem with going to Liberty University in a campaign. And of course, not everyone is observant of religious holidays. But you know that.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)I grew up with and know many Jewish people. Not one of them speaks like Sanders does.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided