Harris, Sanders, Booker campaigned at Vegas church led by pastor who calls being gay a sin

[Jose Garcia]

LAS VEGAS — Presidential candidates Kamala Harris and Cory Booker attended services this weekend at a Baptist church led by a pastor who’s called being gay a sin — “enough to send you to hell” — and Bernie Sanders held a town hall at the church last month.

It isn’t clear what the three presidential candidates — all staunch supporters of LGBTQ rights — knew about the Rev. Robert E. Fowler Sr.’s position on homosexuality when they campaigned at Las Vegas’ Victory Missionary Baptist Church, but his views are hardly a secret: A 2017 Las Vegas Review-Journal columnabout his perspective on gay rights shows up on the first page of results for a Google search of his name.

Fowler said in a 2013 radio interview that “whether you commit adultery, whether you commit fornication, whether you’re a child molester, you gossip, you lie, you cheat on your taxes, you don’t pay your tithes, things of that nature — all of that is wrapped together as sin, along with homosexuality. And so at our church, we don’t believe that there’s any one sin that’s greater than anything else.”

And he said he still held those views in an interview Sunday night with the Bay Area News Group: “Homosexuality, adultery, fornication, those are all sexual sins addressed in scripture.”

more: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mercurynews.com/2019/08/05/presidential-election-las-vegas-church-lgbtq-rights/amp/

[Loki Liesmith]

1. If you are going to campaign at a church

Odds are that church is going to, at least nominally, call homosexuality a sin.

[JI7]

12. not Jeremiah Wright. he was pro lgbt rights

[Loki Liesmith]

86. Those aren't the same thing

Plenty of Christians believe homosexual sex to be a sin while bring pro lgbt rights.

[CurtEastPoint]

2. If this preacher were white they would not have gone there. Candidates need to stop

pandering. Just because they rightly appreciate and need the African American vote doesn't mean they should give any credence to assholes like this.

[demmiblue]

5. +1

[hlthe2b]

6. Yes... All candidates need to stop pandering, but that won't happen, so at least hire staff

that will research before sending you somewhere to meet with an overt bigot or racist or misogynist or whatever unacceptable history.

[CurtEastPoint]

7. Yes, that was a huge faux pas by their staffs (stavs?) in not even Googling Rev. Asshole.

[Princetonian]

13. Or maybe they decided the risk was worth the payoff in AA votes in NV to get to 15%

I find it hard to believe the staffs did not know. And now they get to shield themselves from Democratic grassroots and donor fallout with claims of mea culpa and plausible deniability while having already gaining that audience of churchgoing voters. Win, win. We Democrats are a forgiving bunch when campaigns fall back on, "Sorry, we made a big horrible mistake!"

[bigtree]

20. Joe Biden ever visit a church and associate with priests who believes homosexuality is a sin?

...Joe Biden ever speak at a black church and associate with any black clergy who believe homosexuality is a sin?

Was the 'risk' for him 'worth the payoff?'

[Princetonian]

44. You tell me. Rev. Fowler is doing alot of damage to LGBTQ youth in his congregation with his views.

Give me apple-to-apple examples where Joe has campaigned for Presidential primary votes in the church of a known homophobic preacher.

[bigtree]

54. as opposed to the well-known homophobic Catholic church?

...apple to apple.

[Princetonian]

66. Apple to apple would be if Joe was standing next to Harris embracing Rev. Fowler.

That did not happen.

[SidDithers]

61. Biden's Catholic, isn't he?...

Sid

[emmaverybo]

80. Yes. And as with many liberal Catholics in America, he does not follow all the dictates issued

from the Vatican. For instance, he has been called out by Catholic hierarchy for his political stance
on abortion. He is for upholding Roe vs. Wade while the church is against all abortions.

Certainly his support of same-sex marriage does not accord with official CC teaching.

Using Joe’s Catholic faith to counter posts here that question candidates’ judgement or due diligence in appearing at an anti-LGBT church, in fact, does nothing to address posters’ concern.

[SidDithers]

81. Sure, go with that...

He's Catholic, but not that Catholic.



Sid

[emmaverybo]

84. He, as did Edward Kennedy, does not believe he should impose his personal religious belief on

people who do not subscribe to his or to any religion. He has made this clear in action and in word.

Supporters of LGBT rights number among Catholics as do those who support abortion rights and
“assisted suicide,” and many who are outspoken in criticizing the wide-spread pedophile priest coverup.

Blaming individual Catholics, a politically diverse group, for not dropping their religion because of its dogma is subscribing to a guilt-by-association philosophy.

If the Catholic Church evolves in its official stance on a range of socio-political matters, it will be
because of pressures coming from inside its membership.

[Cha]

103. I went with this, emmaverybo..

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=229953

[Cha]

101. Biden's Early Support for Same-Sex Marriage Still Remembered for Impact

Seven years ago this week, former Vice President Joseph Biden gave an interview on NBC’s “Meet the Press” that fundamentally altered the course of the marriage equality movement.

Biden — now the front-runner for the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination — stepped out on a limb with moving remarks on extending marriage rights to gay couples, a memorable act on behalf of LGBT rights that distinguishes him in the field of Democratic candidates.

On May 6, 2012, Biden was asked on “Meet the Press” whether his views had evolved on same-sex marriage. The vice president replied the matter “is all about a simple proposition. Who do you love. Who do you love?”

https://thegavoice.com/news/bidens-early-support-for-same-sex-marriage-still-remembered-for-impact/

I'm going to go with this, Sid.

[emmaverybo]

119. Excellent response, Cha! Let no one forget Biden's support for same-sex marriage. NT

[Cha]

121. They should be Thanking Biden since

they care about this issue.

Not trying to drag him on the Catholic Church. They should be sticking up for their candidate.

Mahalo, emmaverybo

[emmaverybo]

129. And Mahalo back at you, Cha. Always cheered by your posts and your little crew there.

[Cha]

130. lol@ ".. my little crew there.. "!

Now I'll always think of my little crew.

emmaverybo!

[Cha]

98. WHATABOUT! WHATABOUT! WHATABOUT!

[emmaverybo]

120. Ha ha. You got it, Cha! NT

[Cha]

122. The Whatabout Biden is a big fail.

Thank You, emmaverybo!

[demmiblue]

23. It's nothing new.

Many Democratic politicians have had associations with Louis Farrakhan (including white politicians). Louis fucking Farrakhan.

[Blue_true]

128. For a group of people, Staff is always Staffs in the plural.

His or her Staff -singular candidate or businessperson

Their Staffs - several candidates of businesspeople


Oh crap, I have become a corrector-jerk!!!!

[CurtEastPoint]

131. Should have indicated I was joking but...

it sounded familiar so...

In Western musical notation, the staff (US) or stave (UK) (plural for either: staves) is a set of five horizontal lines and four spaces that each represent a different musical pitch or in the case of a percussion staff, different percussion instruments.

[Blue_true]

132. Yeah, good idea, I can be humorless at times. nt

[Glorfindel]

135. In this case, the plural of "staff" is also "staff," Curt...

from Merriam-Webster: "plural staff; 'he employs three full-time staff.'"

[CurtEastPoint]

137. SHRIMP! LOL!

[Princetonian]

3. That is one large photo of Harris happily embracing virulent homophobe Rev. Robert E. Fowler.

[CurtEastPoint]

8. sad to see this

[Princetonian]

11. I feel repulsed.

[bigtree]

26. stay strong

#

here's a nice article, with a nice pic of Biden and a priest:



Vatican official attacks U.S. Democrats as “party of death”
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/10/01/vatican-official-attacks-us-democrats-as-party-of-death/

[Princetonian]

36. So? Is he campaigning for Vatican votes?

[zackymilly]

56. He may have 'evolved'....again. n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

79. Anything for votes

Wish she liked Biden more than this guy

[Kahuna7]

16. Guilt by association, no?...

[Princetonian]

24. It says alot.

At best, it is political pandering.

[bigtree]

28. hypocritical

...the smear is backfiring.

Pay attention, keep up.

[Kahuna7]

29. Ha ha. Not according to THIS!!!

You keep up.

https://morningconsult.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Political-Intelligence-8.5.19.pdf

Here are five key post-debate takeaways:
There was no outright winner:
After the first debates in June, Kamala Harris gained 6 points in vote share - a significant step forward for her campaign. This round, no candidate made a similar gain, and the shape of the race remains largely unchanged.

Voters were more impressed by progressives than moderates: Twenty-two percent of voters say Elizabeth Warren had the best debate performance, and 15 percent said Bernie Sanders did – making them first and second in that regard.

Harris’s performance set her back: Along with losing 3 points in vote share, Harris’s net favorability dropped by 11 points (seven points more than any other candidate).

Biden didn’t make gains, but he weathered attacks: Despite facing criticisms from competitors all night, Biden held steady in terms of favorability and vote share.

[Princetonian]

31. The Pope is not a virulent homophobe: "God Made You This Way,' Pope Is Said to Have Told Gay Man"

'ROME — A Chilean survivor of clerical sex abuse has said that Pope Francis told him in a private meeting this month that God had made him gay and that both God and the pontiff loved him that way, a remarkable expression of inclusion for the leader of the Roman Catholic Church.

“He said to me, ‘Juan Carlos, that’s not a problem,’ ” said Juan Carlos Cruz, the abuse survivor, describing having told the pope he was gay in a long meeting in the Vatican. “You have to be happy with who you are. God made you this way and loves you this way, and the pope loves you this way.”

The Vatican declined to comment on the pope’s private remarks.

Mr. Cruz had already said that Francis had apologized in the meeting for the large-scale sexual abuse scandal involving Chilean clergy members, but over the weekend, he also told the Spanish newspaper El País about the pope’s remarks about his homosexuality. In a separate interview Sunday night, Mr. Cruz, through tears, explained that he had told Francis in their nearly three-hour private meeting that he had maintained his Catholic faith even though Chilean bishops had apparently told the pope that he had left the church “for a life of perversion.”'

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/world/europe/pope-francis-gays-god-made-you-this-way-.html

Since you mentioned the Catholic Church, do you know that Kamala Harris has been accused of doing nothing to help survivors of clergy abuse back in California?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=224943

[bigtree]

37. she held back documents to protect identities of victims from attorneys and news reporters

...and did not have the ability to selectively release that information without compromising others identities who were not part of the lawsuit.

Prosecutors make these types of judgments all the time. It has nothing to do with whether or not she supports victims of abuse.

As you may know, Kamala Harris as District Attorney created the first unit focused on child sexual assault cases in the office’s history.

She began her career in the Alameda County District Attorney’s Office, where she specialized in prosecuting child sexual assault cases. In 1998, she joined the San Francisco District Attorney’s Office, where she led the Career Criminal Unit. She also served as the head of the San Francisco City Attorney’s Division on Children and Families.

[Princetonian]

41. Then how come her predecessors cooperated with survivors? A lawyer for clergy abuse victims says...

"Clergy Abuse Survivors Question Kamala Harris’ Record"

'Harris never responded to him when he wrote to tell her that a priest who had molested him was still in ministry at a local Catholic cathedral. And, he says, she didn’t reply five years later when he wrote again, urging her to release records on accused clergy to help other alleged victims who were filing lawsuits.

“She did nothing,” said Piscitelli, today the Northern California spokesman for SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. Survivors of clergy abuse and their attorneys say that Harris’ record on fighting sex abuse within the Catholic Church is relevant as the U.S. senator from California campaigns for the presidency... They complain that Harris was consistently silent on the Catholic Church’s abuse scandal — first as district attorney in San Francisco and later as California’s attorney general.

Catholics make up large voting blocs in the city and the state, accounting for roughly a quarter of the population in both San Francisco’s metro area and across California.

“There’s a potential political risk if you move aggressively against the church,” said Michael Meadows, a Bay Area attorney who has represented clergy abuse victims. “I just don’t think she was willing to take it.'

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/26/clergy-abuse-survivors-question-sen-kamala-harris-record/

[bigtree]

46. Becerra gave them lip service

Last edited Tue Aug 6, 2019, 02:51 PM - Edit history (1)

...nothing in here says he did anything about releasing the records.

He's bound to protect identities of victims, just like Harris was.

So, essentially, the article doesn't identify anything more that he's dome.

[Princetonian]

48. Says you. Not according to clergy abuse victims and their lawyers...

'After Harris took office as DA in 2004, attorneys representing abuse survivors in civil cases asked her office to release church records on abusive priests that had been gathered by her predecessor, Terence Hallinan.

Harris refused, a decision her office said was intended to protect the identities of clergy abuse victims. “It would be virtually impossible to release records without compromising the identity of the victims,” two of her top aides said in a joint letter.

Victims and their attorneys scoffed at the explanation, contending it would be a simple matter to avoid identifying the victims. “What she was saying was utter nonsense,” said Meadows, the Bay Area attorney. “All she had to do was redact any identifying information.”

Victims’ lawyers said Harris’ office also resisted informal requests to help them with their cases, at a time when other district attorneys or their staff members were making themselves available.

“Of all the DAs in the Bay Area, she’s the only one who wouldn’t cooperate with us,” said Rick Simons, an attorney who was the court-appointed coordinator for clergy abuse cases filed in Northern California, as well as Piscitelli’s personal lawyer.'

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/26/clergy-abuse-survivors-question-sen-kamala-harris-record/

[Demsrule86]

60. Yep, This is definitely something she will need to address.

[Princetonian]

143. Can you imagine if these clergy abuse survivors and their lawyers were to hold a news conference?

Right before Election Day?

[Demsrule86]

145. I would imagine the bitterness and anger would be awful...some have comitted suicide. Justice needs

to be served in civil court as that is all that is left after SCOTUS ruled.

[Demsrule86]

59. I had an OP on this...and that is just not true...previous DA's had released the information for

lawsuits...the only possible justice...as SCOTUS had ruled. It is said that she did this to protect the church for higher ups...my article said that.

[mobeau69]

78. What is "alot"?

[bigtree]

22. yeah

[Princetonian]

25. "Pope Francis says transsexuals and gay people should be embraced by the Catholic Church" (10/4/16)

'Pope Francis has called for transsexuals and homosexuals to be accepted and embraced by the Catholic Church, but said he was staunchly opposed to schools promoting or endorsing such “tendencies”.

He said he had ministered to such people when he was a priest, then as a bishop and now as Pope.'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/04/pope-francis-says-transsexuals-and-gay-people-should-be-embraced/

[bigtree]

30. yeah, he's a peach

Pope Francis 'confirms Vatican gay lobby and corruption'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-22869399

Vatican denies pope is open to recognition of gay civil unions
https://www.reuters.com/article/pope-homosexuals/vatican-denies-pope-is-open-to-recognition-of-gay-civil-unions-idUSL6N0KF0GG20140105

Italian news magazine Vatican Insider, as well as other Italian media outlets, reported that Francis spoke about gay men in the seminary to the Italian Bishops' Conference during a closed-door session. According to one bishop present at the meeting, the Pope said, "If in doubt, better not let them enter." Meaning that, if someone is gay, they shouldn't study for the priesthood. That stance puts Francis in line with his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, who issued a document in 2005 stating that men with "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies" shouldn't be allowed to study for the priesthood.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/25/world/pope-lgbt/index.html

Pope says marriage can only be between a man and a woman ...
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-marriage-man-woman-article-1.2385296

[Princetonian]

38. He's a damned sight better than Rev. Fowler. For Pope Francis' personal beliefs, see Reply #31.

Link: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=229533

[bigtree]

40. well, you cling to that.

[Cha]

114. And, you "cling" to what you're trying to do, bigtree.

[aidbo]

45. What about Pope Benedict and John Paul II? You know, the ones in the pictures.

[Princetonian]

50. So? Was Joe running for President then?

[aidbo]

57. No, but in one of them he was the Vice President at the time.

And Ratzinger had some pretty regressive views for the times.

[Princetonian]

63. The Vice President was sent by the President on official business not campaigning for President.

Apples to apples, please.

[aidbo]

69. I was just pointing out that you weren't comparing apples to apples.

[Princetonian]

71. Wrong.

[aidbo]

73. Lol. You too

[Princetonian]

74. Nope.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=229663

[SidDithers]

82. Well, that's uncomfortable...nt

Sid

[demmiblue]

4. Really disappointing.

“No one is saying that you can’t be an LGBTQ rights supporter and also visit houses of worship,” she said. “But visiting a house of worship where the religious leaders are not supporters is a choice, and it sends a message that those views are not abhorrent.”

[Autumn]

9. A Baptist church. Of course a preacher in a place like that believes that nonsense.

That's what they do and politicians pander to religious people.

[58Sunliner]

10. Which leads me to ask who are they pandering to-LGBTQ or blacks?

They had a chance to have a real dialogue about not supporting suppression of the LGBTQ community, and they chose to ignore it. That's bullshit.

[FreeState]

142. +1 n/t

[Politicub]

14. Anti-gay bigotry from the pulpit affects children at their core.

That is one of the many reasons why it is so awful. Bigots should never be excused or condoned.

People who didn’t grow up in a fundamentalist baptist environment don’t understand the extent of how anti-lgbt themes are tightly woven into Baptist beliefs. They love to talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, and do so in nearly every weekly sermon, but stay silent about injustice and the crimes perpetrated by men against women.

[58Sunliner]

144. +1,000. Not to mention crimes against LGBTQ.

[bigtree]

15. was it a Catholic church?

...singling out this black church and this black minister on this site is inflammatory nonsense.

Acknowledge that most church orthodoxies, the majority of organized religon, (dumfoundedly, ignorantly) believes homosexuality is a sin. Are we shaming everyone who attends Catholic churches, has relationships with Catholic priests now?

A Harris spokeswoman said in a statement Monday that “Senator Harris’ support and advocacy for LGBTQ equality has been unwavering throughout her career. She will continue to visit houses of worship across the country to address congregants about the pressing issues we face as a nation.”

Booker and Sanders’ campaigns did not respond to a request for comment Monday.

All three senators have been longtime champions of gay rights, with Harris officiating same-sex weddings in San Francisco in 2004 and Booker doing the same for the first legal unions in New Jersey. Sanders was one of the few members of the House of Representatives to oppose the Defense of Marriage Act, which blocked the federal government from recognizing same-sex marriage, in the ’90s.

[Autumn]

17. Baptist church. nt

[bigtree]

18. Joe Biden Is a Practicing Catholic

...He attends Mass at St. Joseph on the Brandywine Church or St. Patrick’s Church in the Diocese of Wilmington.

Do the priests at those churches believe 'Homosexuality is a sin?'

I'd bet they do, indeed.

[Autumn]

21. Take it to the bank. They are churches and it's in their books.

[lapucelle]

35. What books?

LGBTQ EQUALITY ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION & GENDER IDENTITY

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, a text which contains dogmas and teachings of the Church, names “homosexual acts” as “intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law,” and names “homosexual tendencies” as “objectively disordered.” While the Catholic Church does not consider “homosexual orientation” sinful in and of itself, it does have a very negative attitude toward it. The 1986 Letter states, “Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.”

The fact that Catholicism does not consider the “inclination” sinful is very different from more fundamentalist Christian churches. It is one of the reasons that the Catholic Church has not officially approved of reparative therapy. The Catechism further states that “Homosexual persons are called to chastity.” However, the doctrine also specifies that, “Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”

The actual experience of LGBTQ parishioners can vary widely across dioceses and parishes. Many Catholic communities reach out to LGBTQ members to offer as full of a welcome as possible within the limits of a Church policy that does not approve of same-sex relationships, even committed ones. Other parishes have denied membership to LGBTQ individuals and families. There have also been recent instances of LGBTQ employees in the United States being dismissed from Catholic schools and parishes following the celebration of a same-sex couple’s marriage.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-roman-catholic-church

[Autumn]

64. They find it in their holy books, that's where they find all that intrinsic moral evil stuff . nt

[lapucelle]

88. Catholics don't find the idea that homosexuality is a sin in their "holy books".

Homosexual acts are a sin, as is sex outside of marriage. and the use of birth control.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, a text which contains dogmas and teachings of the Church, names “homosexual acts” as “intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law,” and names “homosexual tendencies” as “objectively disordered.”

While the Catholic Church does not consider “homosexual orientation” sinful in and of itself, it does have a very negative attitude toward it. The 1986 Letter states, “Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.”

***********************************************************************************************************
From The Big Book of Intrinsic Moral Evil Stuff (known to us Catholics as the catechism).

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357

[Autumn]

89. Seriously. Read what you post.

You are not doing Joes religion any favors.

[lapucelle]

100. I'm "not doing Joe's religion any favors" by correcting a mistaken and facile characterization

of its stance on whether or not homosexuality is a sin?

How am I "not doing Joe's religion" any favors? What does that mean? I'm a Catholic too. Seriously, exactly what are you implying?

[Voltaire2]

104. Lulzd.

Yeah not homophobic at all.

[George II]

110. I recommend that you do some research before you "lulzd".

[Cha]

133. What are you "lulzd" about, Voltaire?!

[Princetonian]

34. So you are saying that Biden's priest is a virulent homophobe who feels as Rev. Fowler does?

[bigtree]

39. ask them about their views on homosexuality

...you've come to the end of the smear.

Please exit to the rear of the bus.

[Princetonian]

42. No, you made the claim, you prove it.

[bigtree]

47. I don't need to prove shit to you

...you know this is a smear.

A smear fail.

All in defense of a politician who couldn't decide for decades whether to defend homosexuality, or stand with his church in opposition to it.

In 1993, as a United States Senator, Biden voted in favor of 10 U.S.C. §654, a section of a broader federally mandated policy that deemed homosexuality incompatible with military life thereby banning gay Americans from serving in the United States armed forces in any capacity without exception. The law was subsequently modified by President Clinton through the issuance of DOD Directive 1304.26 (subsequently nicknamed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" or DADT) which accommodated "closeted" service to the extent that a servicemember's homosexual sexual orientation was neither discovered nor disclosed. The ban was held unconstitutional in Log Cabin Republicans v. United States for violation of First and Fifth Amendment rights. The Obama Administration, in accordance with President Obama's unfavorable view of the law, pushed a legislative repeal of 10 U.S.C. §654 on December 15, 2010.

In 1996, Biden voted in favor of the Defense of Marriage Act (1 U.S.C. §7) which prohibited the federal government from recognizing any same-sex marriage, barring individuals in such marriages from equal protection under federal law, and allowing states to do the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Joe_Biden#LGBTQ_issues

[Princetonian]

51. Tsk, tsk! If you make a claim, do not expect me to "ask" if it is true. You have to prove it.

Is that all you've got? Ancient history? Do you have anything from earlier than the past two decades maybe 21st century?

Because Joe came out for gay marriage before Barack.

[George II]

117. I think many people would be surprised.

[Voltaire2]

97. Biden's church is officially homophobic

and misogynist.

Individuals within the RCC May have other views, but they have to keep them to themselves.

[Princetonian]

99. See Replies #80 and #84 and #91. The Pope's personal beliefs are revealed in Reply #31.

[Princetonian]

106. Wrong. "God Made You This Way,' Pope Is Said to Have Told Gay Man" (New York Times, 5/21/18)

Pope Francis is not a homophobe.

'ROME — A Chilean survivor of clerical sex abuse has said that Pope Francis told him in a private meeting this month that God had made him gay and that both God and the pontiff loved him that way, a remarkable expression of inclusion for the leader of the Roman Catholic Church.

“He said to me, ‘Juan Carlos, that’s not a problem,’ ” said Juan Carlos Cruz, the abuse survivor, describing having told the pope he was gay in a long meeting in the Vatican. “You have to be happy with who you are. God made you this way and loves you this way, and the pope loves you this way.”

The Vatican declined to comment on the pope’s private remarks.

Mr. Cruz had already said that Francis had apologized in the meeting for the large-scale sexual abuse scandal involving Chilean clergy members, but over the weekend, he also told the Spanish newspaper El País about the pope’s remarks about his homosexuality. In a separate interview Sunday night, Mr. Cruz, through tears, explained that he had told Francis in their nearly three-hour private meeting that he had maintained his Catholic faith even though Chilean bishops had apparently told the pope that he had left the church “for a life of perversion.”'

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/world/europe/pope-francis-gays-god-made-you-this-way-.html

[George II]

123. Neither of your conclusions is true.

[Cha]

126. No it isn't.. you're Wrong, Voltaire.

91. Catholics do not believe that homosexuality is a sin.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=229855

Sorry, you don't know as much as you think you know.

[lapucelle]

90. "Do the priests at those churches believe 'Homosexuality is a sin'?" So glad you asked! Nope.

At least not if they follow church teachings, dogma, and dogma.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357

[lapucelle]

91. Catholics do not believe that homosexuality is a sin.

Homosexual sex (like all sex outside of marriage) is a sin.

Catholic teaching on homosexuality is laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and a number of magisterial documents. The Church teaches that while homosexual sexual acts, like all sexual acts outside of marriage, are sinful, having a homosexual orientation itself is not a sin. It also teaches that LGBT people, like all people, are to be treated with respect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_teaching_on_homosexuality

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357

[Cha]

108. Catholic Church.. "having a homosexual orientation itself is not a sin."

Mahalo, lapucelle!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=229953

[lapucelle]

115. Thank you for that.

Fundamentalist Christians and Catholics are not the same.

The fact that folks so casually make up stuff about somebody else's religion and then crack dismissive jokes when it's pointed out that their "facts" are wrong is really troubling.

They find it in their holy books, that's where they find all that intrinsic moral evil stuff

You're not doing Joe's religion any favors

Lulzd. Yeah not homophobic at all.

SMH

[Cha]

116. Their "WHATABOUT" failed.

Thank you for the reality checks, lapucelle!

[2020Junker]

125. A distinction without a difference

I'm not really sure parsing this in defense of your candidate is a road you should be treading down so cavalierly.

The LGBTQ community is highly aware of what the Catholic Church is about and how it has behaved.

This subthread is very strange. Defending the Church against its rank homophobia.

"Being gay isn't a sin. Just having, you know, an actual gay relationship is!"

And you thought you made a good point there.

Sorry. This reeks of heterosexual privilege. I think you and the other poster should probably read a few materials about the Church and its impact on the LGBTQ community. I'm assuming a lack of knowledge, because if this point was made knowingly, well . . . it's very sad to see in a Democratic website.

Sometimes one can go too far in defense of one's preferred candidate.

[lapucelle]

140. Correcting misinformation about any belief system is exactly what we should all be doing.

There is an immense difference between doctrine that asserts "that person, by his very nature, is evil" and "that person, by his very nature, is not evil".

There is no one as privileged as those who assert that they are entitled to tell other people what "they really believe" as a response to facts that do not confirm their biases.

Just ask Congresswoman Omar.

[StarfishSaver]

113. Thank you

I'm really sick of black voters being held to a different, higher standard.

our Democratic politicians are supposed to go traipsing around all over Trump country seeking votes from white voters, but if they go into a black church whose pastor's views aren't completely in line with the Democratic position on homosexuality, they're pandering, anti-LGBTQ and must be condemned.

It looks like some voters are seen as more valuable than others.

[SharonClark]

19. Biden supporters shoudn't get so cocky over this pandering

Biden has and will speak again at an anti-gay, anti-abortion black Baptist church. All Dems do.

[Jose Garcia]

27. Hopefully this article will spur all of the campaigns to do a better job at

vetting campaign locations.

[Kahuna7]

32. Still, rules are rules. People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones. nt

[obamanut2012]

83. Biden is also a practicing Catholic

[Princetonian]

87. Yes. In response...

Please read Reply #80:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=229747

and Reply #84:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=229758

[Cha]

107. That's right!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=229953

[Cha]

105. Hey! I'm not "cocky", Sharon.

[lapfog_1]

33. "you don't pay your tithes"

and there is the "sin" that really upsets the pastor.

[demmiblue]

49. Yeah, that popped out at me.

Prosperity gospel types are vile.

From their website:

Be a cheerful GIVER! DONATE HERE.

2 Corinthians 9: 7 - Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

And a PDF:

http://www.victorymbc.org/os/resources/media/7-1-14_-_Living_Generously_2_pdf.pdf

[2020Junker]

43. This is going to happen, especially in Southern Baptist churches

I'm gay, and while not thrilled, this is simply a fact of life for a portion of the Democratic coalition we include in our tent. The reality is that portions of the black electorate, especially in the South, trend socially conservative and religious. It has always been known.

I think all of our candidates, with perhaps the exception of Gabbard, are solid on LGBTQ issues.

As noted in this thread, Biden is a practicing Catholic. They don't like us so much.

We can keep an eye on the more virulent homophobes, however. I wouldn't put this guy down as virulent. Just the usual conservative, religious asshole. There was that one guy in 2016 . . . Donnie McClurkin (had to google that one). That was a bad, bad move to have him anywhere near a campaign.

I suppose it's a matter of degrees. I know Harris in particular is amazing at LGBTQ issues (I actually met her at a LGBTQ function when she was first running for AG in California). So, it's kind of a grin and bear it situation for me. If someone has staked a portion of their fame/influence on being anti-gay, then I'll perk up and notice. But a run of the mill Baptist pastor who thinks being gay is a sin isn't really on my radar.

We need everyone in our coalition this time around. We can't afford to nitpick at the edges.

[mr_lebowski]

52. Well said, +2 ... and boy u gotta love waking up to our good ol' circular firing squad (nt)

[Princetonian]

53. Joe Biden supporters wake up to that every morning ever since the first debate.

[bigtree]

55. every candidate (except Gabbard), including Joe Biden, has moved on from the debate

...and are talking about Trump.

Keep up.

[Princetonian]

58. So? I don't see any shortage of OPs attacking Joe.

And I think we all know why Harris decided to focus on Trump all of a sudden right after the second debate where she again brought up how Joe "worked with segregationists."

[2020Junker]

68. It's all subjective

For example, on the marijuana issue, I've seen many Biden supporters say, "Why are you attacking?!" But it's not an attack, it's a criticism. Each candidate is going to have some good policies and some bad policies. Just personal experience, but I find people who are very devoted to a candidate tend to perceive most criticism as unconscionable attacks. Or "bashing."

It isn't very useful, because it shuts down debate of vital issues that will affect the election and ultimately us should we (universe willing) elect that person.

I have criticisms for every candidate in my top three. Harris is one of them. I think her record as a prosecutor and AG are absolutely fair game. In fact, on criminal justice matters, there is a lot there that I have questions about that I think she needs to answer.

It's just too early to be this sensitive. Lurking around, I've noticed Sanders gets absolutely hammered here. I don't even open Sanders threads. They're always bile-filled. It's a thousand times worse than what Biden receives. But no one complains about that much. No matter how frivolous or gratuitous the slamming, it's always called "vetting." When Biden gets "vetted" in a similar manner, suddenly it's bashing.

I like Biden. He's not in my top three, but I think he's a thoroughly decent man who was one of the better VPs we've had in our history. He and Obama complemented each other extremely well.

I just get a sense he's always playing catch up with the times, always a step or two behind where we need to be as a party and a country, so I'm not with him in this cycle. That's ok. And I won't gratuitously criticize just to criticize. But as the frontrunner and the current standard bearer for the moderate wing of the party when progressives are on the rise, he's going to get a lot of incoming fire. It's simply the political reality we live in. We have a long way to go yet. It's too early for sensitive devotion.

[Princetonian]

70. Ha! I am one of those routinely getting "absolutely hammered" in Bernie threads.

[2020Junker]

72. Sanders threads are very "Here there be dragons"

I steer my happy rudder right on back to Portugal at that point when I see them.

I like Sanders generally, but I think 2016 was his year if it was going to happen for him. A little peeved about him running again, because I think Warren would be pulling similar to Biden's numbers if he were not in the race. It's dividing the progressive wing.

But that's politics. Not much to be done for it until the voting starts.

[qazplm135]

112. no kidding

The only time I get alerted on is when discussing Biden. not because of flames or insults, but because of criticism.
I used to think it was as bad with Bernie, but to his supporters credit, I've not once been alerted on because of any criticism of him, and I've made plenty.

[qazplm135]

77. first of all, baloney

nothing Biden has faced has been any worse than any other Dem frontrunner.

Second, even if that's true, the they did first attack is what five year olds say.

You are doing the same thing you are decrying, and then citing that same thing as a defense for what you are doing.

So, either admit that attacks are fine both ways, or stick to your purported principles and stop.

I really don't care. I think attacks are fine. They help folks get ready for the far worse attacks that will come in the GE.

Of course, this particular attack is silly because I guarantee if one went looking, Biden has spoken at a church somewhere that had anti-gay philosophies. As probably have Obama, and Clinton, and most serious presidential contenders. Because, unfortunately for me as an AA, anti-LGBT positions are ever present in many AA churches. It's getting better, but it ain't remotely there yet.

[Princetonian]

85. You got all those strawmen from one short sentence? lol

"I really don't care. I think attacks are fine. They help folks get ready for the far worse attacks that will come in the GE."

Honest criticism is fair game but premeditated attacks are not when they have been deliberately crafted to misrepresent a fellow Democratic candidate as a racist which Harris did to Biden at the first and second debates and which Booker did to Biden at the second debate.

"Of course, this particular attack is silly because I guarantee if one went looking, Biden has spoken at a church somewhere that had anti-gay philosophies."

Whataboutism is a deflection and there is no proof thus far of your claim. If Joe has gone to a church with a known homophobic preacher in this primary cycle like Harris, Sanders and Booker have, then let us know because that is what is relevant to me.

[qazplm135]

95. oh no it was premeditated!

as opposed to unpremeditated attacks?

No one represented Biden as "a racist." That's the extreme reaction to criticism that's being invoked to stop criticism.

You clearly don't understand whataboutism. Whataboutism isn't pointing out that Person A has almost assuredly done exactly what Person A is accusing Person B (and C, and D in this case) of doing.

Oh, I see...we are now limiting it to "in this cycle." All other cycles don't matter. LMAO.

[Princetonian]

96. That's correct. You may not care but right about now, Harris is tanking in the latest Quinnipiac.

Thank you, Tulsi Gabbard.

Joe said today in his Telemundo interview that he wanted a VP he could "completely trust" which rules out anyone who has repeatedly implied he is a racist.

[treestar]

93. Well she did, so others are supposed to let her do it over and over again

because only five year olds do that?

And never push back?

She was supposed to be so tough because she had the "courage" to call out Joe Biden - well some will have the "courage" to call her out. She's not the only tough guy.

When Tulsi called her out, she acted like a high school girl. She is not mature enough for the presidency. She may be right on a lot of the issues, but she is not really tough enough. Being mean is not being tough.

[qazplm135]

94. mom, she started it!

No, I get it. She's not mature enough, but the over the top responses are totally mature.

And the fact that I know this isn't mature is that you are getting behind Gabbard.

[Demsrule86]

62. I consider calling, implying that Biden being is a racist which Kamala did during both

debates, the circular firing squad...what she learned during the last debate is it goes both ways...there have been numerous anti-Biden screeds here and elsewhere...one is up right now misrepresenting his position on weed. So no Boo Hoo's here for Sen. Harris who opened the door...she was that girl after all...

[mr_lebowski]

65. I don't really care who's fans are arguing with who, nor (usually) even what it's about ...

I'm dismayed both about that MJ thread bagging on Biden, AND this one.

Watching everyone tearing down our candidates over these minutiae-based purity-tests annoys the hell out of me.

It also bums me out we're all fighting, just in general.

JMHO, YMMV.

[cwydro]

75. I don't care whose fans are fighting with anyone else's either, but I can tell you this.

It’s gonna get worse.

[Demsrule86]

138. I don't like it either. But when a candidate attackes another breaking an agreement...it opens the

door.

[treestar]

92. This is like the Hillary and Kissinger photos

Or President Obama letting the anti-gay pastor say a prayer at his inauguration.

Just never speaking to these people is not going to get them on board. Some people believe shunning is the way to handle every disagreement. I doubt they are right that it brings people into the light.

[2020Junker]

109. I'll vigorously disagree with you on the Obama inauguration

It's one thing to associate with someone who thinks homosexuality is a sin. As long as we need people of religious communities, it's going to happen. The issue with Obama's inauguration is that it gave a vocal homophobe a place of honor in the ceremonies.

It's one thing to have a photo taken with someone or a rally or a fundraiser or whatever.

Rick Warren led the charge in California for Prop 8.

That is a much, much, much, much, much different circumstance. That was incredibly hurtful to a LGBTQ community that had literally just suffered a devastating blow against our equality a mere two months before.

So, I'm going to posit your comparison rates severe on the apples and oranges scale.

But, that was over ten years ago, so I don't want to re-litigate it too much. The past is past, and Obama came around to where the community wanted him to be (with some nice leading by Biden on the marriage issue, which I recognize and value). It wasn't right of the President to have done that, but it's immaterial now. He did the right thing in the end.

[SWBTATTReg]

67. Quick to point out everybody else's sins isn't he? (Fowler)...hmmm...what is that saying that ...

before blaming or pointing the finger at someone "Never judge a person until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes"?

Hypocrite...

Also, seems like every election cycle, bashing the gay and/or LGBTQ communities seem to be a favorite tactic of supporters and/or campaigners. I ignore this crap as it doesn't really reflect what the vast majority of us really think, that we support our gay/LGBTQ friends, that they are our friends and family, that bashing one group at the expense of others is wrong.

[StarfishSaver]

111. We keep hearing about how we're supposed to go into Trump country to reach out to Trump voters.

How is going into racist Trump country to reach out to white voters any different or better than going to a black church whose pastor is anti-LBGTQ to reach out to black voters?

Did any of these candidates adopt or endorse the pastor's anti-LGBTQ views?

[Princetonian]

118. I have never heard. Who is saying we have to go into Trump country to reach out to Trump voters?

There is no way any Trump voter will vote for us. Democrats are better off reaching out to independents.

[EffieBlack]

134. The "we need to reach out to Trump voters" is a common refrain

Along with “Oh, wow. There you go again calling them racists again. That’s sure a great way to get them to support us this time ...”

[StarfishSaver]

136. +1

[Princetonian]

139. In other words, it's heresay.

[Amimnoch]

124. I have been very anti-Sanders, and neither Harris or Booker are in my top tier.

The positions of the candidates themselves, the bills they would sign or veto, and the appointments they will make matters much more to me.

If I’m to be honest, if it was Beto, or Biden, or Warren, or Buttigieg.. the top tier candidates I do support that had gone, it wouldn’t affect my support of them.

I honestly don’t see any of our candidates at all failing to pass legislation that is Democratic Party led that enhances and protects my equal rights. I don’t see any of them failing to veto any Republican led legislation that attempts to reduce my equal rights. I don’t see any of them making appointments that where empowered to do so will negatively affect my equal rights.

Yeah, I’d like it if our candidates didn’t cavort or work with such persons of such characteristics, but I also understand that for us, it has to be about the big umbrella. As long as it doesn’t evolve into the candidates themselves adjusting their position on it, personally speaking, I’ll give a pass.

[Blue_true]

127. "Pay your tithes or you're going to burn in hell. I tell you God will punish you"

"If I don't get my limo and mansion, God is going to punish you".

[PatrickforO]

141. Wow. I would totally NOT fit in at that church.

Because I don't think cheating on taxes and child molestation should be mentioned in the same breath if you're talking sin.