As he campaigns for president, Joe Biden tells a moving but false war story

[brooklynite]

Washington Post

HANOVER, N.H. — Joe Biden painted a vivid scene for the 400 people packed into a college meeting hall. A four-star general had asked the then-vice president to travel to Kunar province in Afghanistan, a dangerous foray into “godforsaken country” to recognize the remarkable heroism of a Navy captain.

...snip...

Except almost every detail in the story appears to be incorrect. Based on interviews with more than a dozen U.S. troops, their commanders and Biden campaign officials, it appears as though the former vice president has jumbled elements of at least three actual events into one story of bravery, compassion and regret that never happened.

Biden visited Kunar province in 2008 as a U.S. senator, not as vice president. The service member who performed the celebrated rescue that Biden described was a 20-year-old Army specialist, not a much older Navy captain. And that soldier, Kyle J. White, never had a Silver Star, or any other medal, pinned on him by Biden. At a White House ceremony six years after Biden’s visit, White stood at attention as President Barack Obama placed a Medal of Honor, the nation’s highest award for valor, around his neck.

The upshot: In the space of three minutes, Biden got the time period, the location, the heroic act, the type of medal, the military branch and the rank of the recipient wrong, as well as his own role in the ceremony.

[monmouth4]

1. I don't think these "mistakes" are intentional but they really make me cringe..n/t

[myohmy2]

157. +1

...I'm cringing...

...

[NYMinute]

2. Meh

The gist of the story was to praise American bravery as seen by Biden. The details don't matter.

[brooklynite]

4. So when Reagan told inspirational stories that blended plots from war movies he'd been in...

...that was okay?

[NYMinute]

7. Reagan blended fiction

Biden blended reality

Big difference

[pnwmom]

12. No, not really. Most fiction is a blend of reality. When Biden combines three stories

into one, that's the kind of thing fiction writers do every day.

[Princetonian]

75. I enjoyed listening to him speaking. Joe is a good storyteller, isn't he?

[bluewater]

91. All the leading Dems beat trump though...

Last edited Thu Aug 29, 2019, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)

August 15, 2019.

Methodology
Interviews were conducted August 11-13, 2019 among a random national sample of 1,013 registered voters (RV). Landline (222) and cellphone (791) telephone numbers were randomly selected for inclusion in the survey using a probability proportionate to size method, which means phone numbers for each state are proportional to the number of voters in each state. Results based on the full sample have a margin of sampling error of ± 3 percentage points.

[Princetonian]

100. That is an old Faux News poll from weeks ago with a higher MOE than Emerson's poll which is recent.

That old Faux News poll has inferior MOE to Emerson's +/- 2.5% and is from Aug 11-13 not Aug 24-26.

You did not provide a link so I could check but I would wager that the Faux News poll's N value and methodology is inferior to Emerson's aug 24-26 poll (seen below) as well.



Emerson's poll data was weighted by age, region, income, and education based on 2016 turnout modeling.

[bluewater]

106. Fox News Poll is A rated, Emerson poll is just rated B+

And the methodology seems very comparable.

Methodology

Interviews were conducted August 11-13, 2019 among a random national sample of 1,013 registered voters (RV). Landline (222) and cellphone (791) telephone numbers were randomly selected for inclusion in the survey using a probability proportionate to size method, which means phone numbers for each state are proportional to the number of voters in each state. Results based on the full sample have a margin of sampling error of ± 3 percentage points

So you want to UNSKEW the fox News poll now? lol

Honestly most Democrats would be HAPPY that an A rated major poll showed more Democrats beating Trump.

[Princetonian]

8. Yes, because Reagan Democrats and other Americans didn't give a sh*t and still voted for him.

This is the only thing that matters to sensible Democratic voters in the real world where pearl clutching is not an art form.

[Lordquinton]

24. What exactly are you saying here?

Reagan Democrats? You mean Republicans?

[Princetonian]

57. No. Reagan Democrats were white working class Democrats who voted en masse for Reagan because...

... of their disaffection for the Democratic nominee. There is polling and empirical evidence that VP Joe leads in this category of voters and attracts them like no other candidate in part due to their trust and comfort with his "regular Joe" quality.

[still_one]

83. The dirty little secret is those Reagan Democrats were mostly union labor. They didn't like Carter

[Princetonian]

85. Excellent point. Thank you, still_one for bringing this to light.

still_one

83. The dirty little secret is those Reagan Democrats were mostly union labor. They didn't like Carter

[questionseverything]

102. jimmy carted was screwed ovr with devastating interest rates that basically stopped the economy

n/t

[Turin_C3PO]

37. Reagan Democrats

are, as a whole, bigoted, piece of shit, assholes. We need not concern ourselves with them.

[Princetonian]

66. I was using them as an example of unconcerned voters not lauding their character.

[sacto95834]

70. Yes...

I always thought "Reagan Democrats" was just a re-alignment similar to the Dixie-crats switch to Republicans. The RDs just happened in the early 80s. As far as I can tell, they have become less relevant as they have died off and demographics have made them less relevant.

I hated Reagan back in the 80s and still do and it took me a long time to figure out why anyone would vote for him. I have come to recognize the charisma he truly had and it's effect on people who aren't interested in policy issues.

[still_one]

84. They were labor, pissed off at Carter

[Celerity]

118. Reagan worked out just wonderful for unionised labour

[still_one]

148. Yup, that is the irony of the whole thing, and they voted against him when he ran for the

second term, unfortunately it wasnt enough to push him out

[Celerity]

155. if they voted against him in the 1984 election, they must have been microscopic in number

If anything, it would seem they doubled down and voted for him in even greater numbers.

If 1881 Minnesota voters had flipped from Democratic to Rethug, Reagan would have swept all 50 states in 1984. DC still went 85.38% Democratic.

Reagan won 58.8% of the popular vote and carried 49 of the 50 states, becoming the oldest person, at the time, to win a presidential election. Reagan's showing ranks fifth in the share of electoral votes received and fifth in the share of the popular vote won. No candidate since 1984 has equalled Reagan's share of the electoral or popular vote. Mondale received 40.6% of the popular vote, but carried only the District of Columbia and his home state of Minnesota. Reagan also won the highest number of electoral votes of any president thus far.

Post 1820 (if not for 1 elector in 1820, Monroe would have joined George Washington (who did it twice) as the only unanimous 100% EC getters, although the process was different back then, and they both ran unopposed), only FDR in 1936 had a bigger EC % win (98.49% versus Reagan's 97.58% , and Landon still won 2 states (Maine and Vermont, by around 14% and 13% respectively, so not even close like MN was in 1984.) DC could not vote then, that did not happen until the Twenty-third Amendment was adopted in 1961. Nixon in 1972 also won all but one State (Massachusetts, by around 9%, so again, not close like 1984 MN) and also lost DC as well. Nixon did win in 1972 by the biggest popular vote raw number margin ever, almost 18 million votes, and Reagan in 1984 was the second largest popular vote raw number margin, almost 17 million.






If you toss out the EC and only look at the popular vote %, these were the biggest landslides in US history.

Harding in 1920 holds the record, with a 26.17% margin of victory. Woodrow Wilson was hated by then, the nation was in a deep recession after the WWI boom had collapsed, there were terror attacks (Anarchists etc), massive riots, and other social tensions were going on. Harding campaigned on...... 'A return to normalcy' (sounds familiar, lolol)

[still_one]

158. Your link doesnt specifically say where those votes came from except they had traditionally

been Democratic voters, but you assessment is absolutely correct, both for 1980 and 1984, and much of that comprised of the rust belt, and unions

[Celerity]

161. some links on them in regards to 1984

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/09/the-reagan-democrats-have-returned-to-the-republicans---handing/

Potentially even more significant longer-term, Democrats and independent voters surged to Trump. This kind of switch to the Republican Party, largely of white, working-class voters is not entirely without precedent. These are, historically the “Reagan Democrats,” who gave Ronald Reagan a similarly stunning election result in 1980, and a massive landslide re-election in 1984.

They had, post-Reagan, substantially drifted back to their Democratic roots or withdraw from politics entirely. The blue-blooded Bushes did not inspire them, and Mitt Romney left them cold. Trump brought them back.

1984 Democrat for Reagan signage




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Democrat

A Reagan Democrat is a traditionally Democratic voter in the United States, referring initially to White working-class Rust Belt and California residents, and later solely to White working-class Rust Belt, who defected from their party to support Republican President Ronald Reagan at either or both of the 1980 and 1984 presidential elections as well as Republican Presidents George H. W. Bush at the 1988 presidential election and George W. Bush at either or both of the 2000 and 2004 elections.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5151912/ns/us_news-the_legacy_of_ronald_reagan/t/how-reagan-hobbled-democrats/

What was it that Reagan did to the Democrats?

In simplest terms, he beat them, in 1966, defeating California Gov. Pat Brown — and then he beat them again (the legendary boss of California's state Assembly, Jess Unruh, in 1970), and again (a sitting president, Jimmy Carter, in 1980) and again (former Vice President Walter Mondale in 1984). He proved that genial conservatism can win by huge margins.

snip

How did Reagan win a majority of such voters in 1980 and a bigger majority in 1984, even after he'd engaged in what critics called “union-busting” by firing the striking air traffic controllers?

One answer is that Reagan practiced “deficit jiu-jitsu” on Democrats.

In the 1950s and 1960s, the Republicans had been the party of fiscal austerity, bemoaning federal budget deficits and the national debt. In his 1984 race against Mondale, Reagan flipped the party personas on their heads.

Vowing to raise taxes, Mondale and Democrats took the old Republican role as the grim party, bewailing the deficit, even though in the 1960s Democratic leaders had been unconcerned about growing deficits. Reagan cheerfully promised economic growth and implied that deficits would not hurt in the long run.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/11/07/politics/reagan-wins-by-a-landslide-sweeping-at-least-48-states-gop-gains.html

Mr. Reagan was leading everywhere except in Minnesota, Massachusetts and the District of Columbia, giving him a strong chance of attaining one of the largest electoral vote totals in the nation's history.

The Republicans also retained control of the Senate and made gains in the House of Representatives.

A series of hard-fought contests for House seats emerged as the major focus of the battle joined by the parties in this election. Democratic Congressional leaders predicted that Mr. Reagan's big popular victory would not convert into the large gains that the Republicans needed to assure ''ideological control'' of the House and to pave the way for a long-term realignment of the power balance between the parties. More Vote for Republicans

Interviews with voters as they left the polls throughout the country indicated that more voters were casting their ballots for Republican Congressional candidates than for Democrats.

The voter interviews by The New York Times/CBS News Poll also showed that Mr. Reagan and his running mate, Vice President Bush, were leading comfortably in Democratic strongholds in the Northeast and Middle West.

If the 'Reagan Democrats' had defected in any kind of significant numbers, they sure would have voted for more Dems for the Senate and the House. The Rethugs gained across the board, with Reagan gaining even on his massive 1980 win.

In 1984 they had a 32 seat net swing gain in the House, and a 68 net swing gain in 1980, meaning the 2 times Reagan was the the ticket, the Rethugs had a cumulative 100 seat net swing in the House. The did have a 52 seat net loss in 1982, but that was at the peak of the economic downturn, and the massive rebound in 1983 and 1984 (economy wise) is what powered Reagan to that massive 49 state win, with many of those white-working class voters seeing (perceived) large gains in their outlooks.

[myohmy2]

159. are...

...you ready?

...

[uponit7771]

163. YES !!!

[MattInMN]

119. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Forget it, he's rolling.

[NYMinute]

120. Now THAT would be a glaring mistake

But he didn't make such.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

3. Good lord.

[guillaumeb]

5. Biden has been in politics for many years.

And he never claimed to have an eidetic memory. We all make mistakes like this.

[Skya Rhen]

6. Biden is still in the lead and will remain so... Next...

[emmaverybo]

39. +1000

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

9. And.....he is still the frontrunner

And imo will be the nominee.

These are mistakes not freaking lies.

[Autumn]

78. He told one version of this in 2008, another couple of versions a few times in 2016. Now this one in

New Hampshire, according to the article. The actual story when Biden pinned the Bronze Star on Staff Sgt. Chad Workman was very moving.

Then Biden told the latest, and perhaps most inaccurate, version his Afghanistan story.

“I’ve been in and out of Afghanistan and Iraq over 30 times,” he said. (His campaign later clarified that the correct number is 21.) He talked about Kunar province, the Navy captain — “Navy, Navy” he repeated for emphasis — the deep ravine, the dead friend and the moment of reckoning when Biden pinned the medal on the officer’s uniform.

The version of Biden’s story that’s true — and just as heart-rending — is one he rarely tells. The setting was not Kunar province, but Wardak, just southwest of Kabul. The medal recipient was Workman, 35, who had run into a burning vehicle to save his dying friend. By the time Workman had pried open the door and plunged into the flames, it was too late.

“I never pulled him out because he was melting,” Workman recalled in a phone interview earlier this week from Joint Base Lewis-McChord near Tacoma, Wash.

[treestar]

136. And mistakes of no moment

No substance or importance. Details that don't matter. Other people will take care of the details. He's not going to tell them to lock kids in cages, for example. He's going to tell them to stop doing that; do it the way it was done before, and the people in the Dept. of Homeland Security, picked by him for having experience and not picked by a Dotard who picked them to pillage the Department, will carry out the details.

[thesquanderer]

10. If Hillary survived "sniper fire," Joe can survive this. (n/t)

[pnwmom]

13. Hillary never said she survived sniper fire. I know about the plane trip you're talking about

and that's a gross distortion of what she said.

[thesquanderer]

26. I meant her campaign survived the hubbub about it.

Note the quotation marks around "sniper fire" to indicate I wasn't talking literally about sniper fire, I was talking about the related campaign issue. Joe will similarly survive the hubbub about this as a campaign issue.

[questionseverything]

103. she survived but we didnt win

and now I would not bet that the country as a whole survives

[Voltaire2]

150. Yup.

[mcar]

115. She didn't really survive the hubub

It was used extensively against her.

[thesquanderer]

122. She got the nomination. And Trump didn't really use it against her in the general...

...which actually is kind of surprising, considering his general M.O.

[emmaverybo]

35. She said she brought peace to Ireland, opened Bosnia's borders, the helicopter she was flying in

took fire...

[George II]

11. I simply do not care.

[LincolnRossiter]

14. Is Biden the only democrat running?

Because he seems to be the only one getting any media vetting.

And I don’t give a shit about the story. The media did the same thing to Hillary.

[Skya Rhen]

15. Someone or Twitter said that the media has an addiction to gaffe porn - I agree...

[hlthe2b]

17. Josh Marshall nailed it:

Link to tweet

[melman]

16. Not good

Not good at all.

[Skya Rhen]

18. Lol...

[melman]

19. Telling false stories is good?

Okay.

[LincolnRossiter]

21. Jumbled some details. BFD. It's not like the story glorifies him personally.

NT.

[melman]

23. Except it kind of does

"Some told him it was too risky, but Biden said he brushed off their concerns. “We can lose a vice president,” he said. “We can’t lose many more of these kids. Not a joke.”

[Princetonian]

32. Voters don't care. Joe is the most likeable Democrat in the nation, according to Gallup.

Here, this will make you feel less concerned...



Notice this poll has a far better MOE and has a N value more than twice that of the Quinnipiac poll:
https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=3638

[bluewater]

92. But all the leading candidates are beating Trump...

?ve=1&tl=1

[Bradshaw3]

138. Voters? So voting is already taking place?

I thought those were poll results not voting results. My take from DU is that some Biden supporters seem to think polls and voting are one and the same.

[bluewater]

56. Jumbling SOME details? The entire story was wrong...

The upshot: In the space of three minutes, Biden got the time period, the location, the heroic act, the type of medal, the military branch and the rank of the recipient wrong, as well as his own role in the ceremony.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/as-he-campaigns-for-president-joe-biden-tells-a-moving-but-false-war-story/2019/08/29/b5159676-c9aa-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html

[LincolnRossiter]

72. As I wrote, I don't give a shit.

I still think Warren is a swell person even after here 1/2000 DNA test. People fumble.

[bluewater]

76. Some people fumble constantly

It's hard to brush this last one away as a mere gaffe. It speaks to the core issue of being up for the job as President. We all know Biden is an honest man, so the only explanation is he was totally confused on this story.

Doesn't his campaign staff pre-screen speeches like this? Someone either dropped the ball or Biden went way off script.

“This is the God’s truth,” Biden had said as he told the story. “My word as a Biden.”

The upshot: In the space of three minutes, Biden got the time period, the location, the heroic act, the type of medal, the military branch and the rank of the recipient wrong, as well as his own role in the ceremony.

[LincolnRossiter]

79. Some people get a lot more scrutiny, which was the point of me posting that dipshit's recent

journalistic contributions. That’s more negative stories from one “journalist” about one candidate than I recall seeing about the rest of the front runners combined.

[LincolnRossiter]

154. As I said...BFD.

NT

[cwydro]

149. Have you read the article?

He certainly does glorify himself, as another poster has pointed out to you.

It’s WAY more than jumbling details. Read the article.

[Voltaire2]

152. Actually it was supposed to boost his

“boots on the ground” military and foreign policy creds.

He had just about every detail wrong. But indeed the episode did happen and he was there, it wasn’t fabrication, it was a memory lapse.

[UniteFightBack]

139. Are you calling Joe Biden a liar? nt

[melman]

140. Are you pretending you didn't see the thread title?

[UniteFightBack]

141. Trump is a liar so are you saying Biden is too? nt

[melman]

142. Are you still pretending you didn't see the thread title?

Go ahead and have fun with that but you'll have to do it without me. I'm not interested in playing that game.

So sorry.

[Autumn]

20. Suck it up and swallow???

Takes me back to the good old fucking days when Reagan would talk about all his war battles.

[Princetonian]

34. Stay classy, Autumn. May another Sesame Street video will cheer you up.

[Autumn]

41. I'm sure it will cheer me up. Did you object to Jill Biden's we have to swallow and vote for Joe? nt

[Princetonian]

63. It's pragmatic given the overwhelming data. And that is not exactly what she said. Context matters.

[bluewater]

93. This chart shows all the top tier Dems beating Trump

?ve=1&tl=1

[redstateblues]

43. At least he's not trying to buy his way into the debates?

Unsucessfully

[Princetonian]

73. ZING!

[bluedigger]

22. I would not care if he was speaking ad hoc.

I expect a little more preparation for a stump speech.

[LincolnRossiter]

25. Matt Visar (Co-author) has written 8 stories featuring Biden in August...

Six were negative. He wrote about half a dozen other negative stories about Biden going back to June. The idiot is Biden obsessed.

[True Dough]

30. More importantly

are the details correct, whether you perceive them as negative or not? Is the same story being reported by other media outlets, including the same details of the several facts that Biden got wrong?

[Skya Rhen]

33. Matt Visar seems to be a bit desperate and unsuccessful in attaining his desired outcome...

[Autumn]

27. Pay wall. 4 paragraphs

Joe Biden painted a vivid scene for the 400 people packed into a college meeting hall. A four-star general had asked the then-vice president to travel to Kunar province in Afghanistan, a dangerous foray into “godforsaken country” to recognize the remarkable heroism of a Navy captain.

Some told him it was too risky, but Biden said he brushed off their concerns. “We can lose a vice president,” he said. “We can’t lose many more of these kids. Not a joke.”

The Navy captain, Biden recalled Friday night, had rappelled down a 60-foot ravine under fire and retrieved the body of an American comrade, carrying him on his back. Now the general wanted Biden to pin a Silver Star on the American hero who, despite his bravery, felt like a failure.

“He said, ‘Sir, I don’t want the damn thing!’ ” Biden said, his jaw clenched and his voice rising to a shout. “’Do not pin it on me, Sir! Please, Sir. Do not do that! He died. He died!’ ”

The room was silent.

[progressoid]

28. Oh c'mon. It's just one little gaffe.

"In the space of three minutes, Biden got the time period, the location, the heroic act, the type of medal, the military branch and the rank of the recipient wrong, as well as his own role in the ceremony."

[Autumn]

29. More from the article

“This is the God’s truth,” Biden had said as he told the story. “My word as a Biden.”

Except almost every detail in the story appears to be incorrect. Based on interviews with more than a dozen U.S. troops, their commanders and Biden campaign officials, it appears as though the former vice president has jumbled elements of at least three actual events into one story of bravery, compassion and regret that never happened.

Biden visited Kunar province in 2008 as a U.S. senator, not as vice president. The service member who performed the celebrated rescue that Biden described was a 20-year-old Army specialist, not a much older Navy captain. And that soldier, Kyle J. White, never had a Silver Star, or any other medal, pinned on him by Biden. At a White House ceremony six years after Biden’s visit, White stood at attention as President Barack Obama placed a Medal of Honor, the nation’s highest award for valor, around his neck.

Biden’s first public recounting of his trip to Kunar province, made shortly after his return in early 2008, was largely true, but not nearly as emotionally fraught as the versions he would later tell on the campaign trail. In 2008, then-Sen. Biden, along with Sens. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) and John F. Kerry (D-Mass.), flew by helicopter to Forward Operating Base Naray, not far from Afghanistan’s border with Pakistan. There, they watched as Maj. Gen. David Rodriguez presented a Bronze Star for valor to Spec. Miles Foltz, who braved heavy Taliban fire to rescue a wounded soldier. Spec. Tommy Alford had been manning his machine gun atop a hill when a Taliban bullet sliced through his jaw and neck. Foltz pulled Alford behind a nearby rock, stanched his bleeding and then took over his friend’s weapon. Two soldiers were killed during the ambush, but Alford survived and even returned to the unit a few months later to finish his combat tour.

[bluewater]

52. omg This can't be hand waved away...

“This is the God’s truth,” Biden had said as he told the story. “My word as a Biden.”

The upshot: In the space of three minutes, Biden got the time period, the location, the heroic act, the type of medal, the military branch and the rank of the recipient wrong, as well as his own role in the ceremony.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/as-he-campaigns-for-president-joe-biden-tells-a-moving-but-false-war-story/2019/08/29/b5159676-c9aa-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html

Face it, Joe Biden is not as sharp as a tack anymore. I know he is not a liar, so he must be confused.

[Autumn]

55. It gets worse. nt

[yaesu]

31. I would much rather hear how he's going to stop banksters from ripping off customers

with 25% interest.

[emmaverybo]

36. Won't help Buttigieg and won't fatally wound Biden.

[duforsure]

38. I don't like him doing that

And why I decided not to back him, he has to many lapses when speaking.

[Skya Rhen]

42. Yet he is the only clear front-runner...

[Drunken Irishman]

44. Weird coming from a Warren supporter...

You know, after the whole American Indian hubbub.

[Turin_C3PO]

48. It's not wrong to hope Joe

will correct himself more in the future. He does misspeak often, no question about it, and it could hurt our chances in the general, because of the way the media treats him. Trump, without a doubt, is 100000X the liar and misspeaker that Joe is, but the media gives Trump a pass.

[Funtatlaguy]

40. Again, I Ask.."what does this mean"?

Is he lying?
Forgetful ?
Careless?
Tired?
Or is it medical? Sundowners? Early onset?

Just come out with it.
What do you think it means that he does this a lot.?
To me, it’s just Joes normal ramblings and inattention to details, only he’s a little older, so it happens more often.
But, if you think it disqualifies him, just say it.
I do not think so.
I love Joe. I want a woman to win. But, not if it means defaming Joe. I won’t do that to this wonderful loyal Democrat and American. Nope. I won’t.

[highplainsdem]

61. What it means to me is Biden has done so much and met so many people and been told so many

stories over the years that it's perfectly understandable he might at times mix them up.

I've seen hopelessly mixed-up stories told by family members of all ages at reunions, sometimes with arguments over exactly what happened, who said what, etc.

It happens.

It happens to all of us, at all ages, unless we have perfect memories.

[bluewater]

69. So you are saying its natural that Biden gets this confused?

“This is the God’s truth,” Biden had said as he told the story. “My word as a Biden.”

The upshot: In the space of three minutes, Biden got the time period, the location, the heroic act, the type of medal, the military branch and the rank of the recipient wrong, as well as his own role in the ceremony.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/as-he-campaigns-for-president-joe-biden-tells-a-moving-but-false-war-story/2019/08/29/b5159676-c9aa-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html

C'mon, man...

[mr_lebowski]

77. Well it's probably not witchcraft/supernatural, so ... yeah, it's 'natural' ...

I have to disagree with some folks here that it's not becoming alarming at this point ... much as I love JB

[highplainsdem]

80. I'm saying that all of us tend to get lots of things confused. See this New Yorker article about

confused memories in young adults:


https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/idea-happened-memory-recollection

[questionseverything]

109. the good ole boys having coffee around the table embellish and tell tall tales

but they are not swearing they are true and running for President

[treestar]

117. But yet the experiences of ordinary people over 70

are used to say Biden is getting forgetful and old. He must be like these ordinary people. But when it is convenient, he has to be better than ordinary people. How it is an excuse so to speak, that a person is not running for the Presidency? It doesn't even work anymore, given that the Dotard won.

[questionseverything]

124. do you honestly think the democratic nominee will get by with half of what trump has gotten by with?

we can do much better

[bluewater]

126. +1000

[treestar]

132. We would be doing much better with just about anyone.

Anyone we have. We would be doing much better with Biden.

But why does he have to be above ordinary for purposes of detail memory but is just like anyone else due to his age? Seems conflicting.

[questionseverything]

135. he has to be better because he wants to be President

geesh


personally I think he seems to old but of coarse if he gets the nomination I will vote for him, I just do not feel he is our best chance to win

[uponit7771]

164. Yes it is, he's doing about average when it comes to human memory

[treestar]

116. Yes, anyone with many stories

is going to have the details fade and make some up to make the story moving.

My grandfather was younger than Biden when he started on stories of his childhood. They were funny stories, with him doing a lot of wild and crazy things. It was easy to wonder if he was exaggerating by this time or enfolding the actions of other kids into stories about himself.

[SaschaHM]

45. His campaign needs to review every story that he plans to tell on the stump.

If there's anything that will cause him to tumble from being the frontrunner, it's things like this. Mixing up one or two details is fine, but this just looks concerning.

With Trump, you can just dismiss something like this as an outright lie meant to boost his credibility. With VP Biden, you can't do that. I don't doubt his sincerity or honesty when he's telling a story like this multiple times. That becomes a problem when just about every detail in the story is wrong and you don't think he's making it up.

Idk if it's campaign or candidate discipline, but there has to be some type of review for stories/speeches like this before we hit the general.

He's going to make mistakes. He's human. However, unfortunately, there's a threshold before they become a cause of concern. Then again, the country might just be sick enough of Trump that they put someone in office regardless of the terrible things that the GOP is going to say about his mental health while using things like this as evidence. We'll see if this just becomes a blip in the campaign concern.

Don't give them the ammunition because we know that the press is going to bite.

[Funtatlaguy]

50. We need to be very careful to not go near the "D" word.

I’ve heard some RW radio using it about him as they say he’s unfit for office.
It MUST be diagnosed by a Doctor.
I sat and watched my Mother be diagnosed.
It is extremely serious.

So, if this is what anybody thinks, please get educated on the subject before hinting at it.
And, I’m not accusing anyone here of doing so.
But, some are playing around the edges. That is not good. Thanks for letting me vent.


https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dementia/symptoms-causes/syc-20352013

[SaschaHM]

60. The lack of a diagnosis isn't going to stop the GOP from saying it or the press from repeating them.

We all saw it happen in real time when it came to lies about Hillary's health.

I agree it's not good, but smart campaigns know what their potential weaknesses are and they minimize the damage from them. Health, physical or mental, is a concern for any candidate over 70 at this point and has been well before "Palin is a heart beat away from the presidency" GoV tool.

VP Joe is going to be up against an insane clown willing to do and say anything to win. He's fine. We all know he's fine. However, slip ups like this on a national platform will only give the MSM the reason they need to start that drumbeat.

I think he's far enough ahead in polls so far that it won't matter, but these things always get close and the GoP is great at supressing the vote/stealing close elections.

[democrank]

46. When I try to figure out what I think about an incident in the Democrat's political world

I switch heads. What would I think if Trump did this....or said this? That’s how I get to my answer.
Apply the same value system to all.

[loyalsister]

74. Same here

If Trump did it people would be suggesting it's dementia. It probably has more to do with with laziness and lack of discipline. Still, there is no is preferable explanation.
What's Joe's excuse? I have no idea but I don't think it's dementia or laziness. I do think it would be foolish for us to spend 2020 grasping to find the least bad factor to explain similar incidents and concerns.
We need a candidate who is on their game and ready to be a candidate whose mental acuity Trump cannot even pretend to compete with.

[Autumn]

47. Another excerpt for those who don't subscribe

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/as-he-campaigns-for-president-joe-biden-tells-a-moving-but-false-war-story/2019/08/29/b5159676-c9aa-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html?fbclid=IwAR2Jhi52sqaXmRudfiFS58Lp_2luVODm9eN2h8ebUDrWnB0aF12_PRQd9Zg

Biden seemed to stop telling the story until the summer of 2016, when the presidential campaign was in full swing and Trump was surging to the top of the polls. In July of that year, he told it at a World War II ceremony in Australia. In this version, Foltz, a young soldier, had been replaced by the apocryphal and much older Navy captain who in Biden’s telling “climbed down about 200 feet” into a ravine and retrieved his wounded friend who died. The Bronze Star was upgraded to a Silver Star.

This time, Biden said he was the one who pinned the medal on the officer, not the general. “Sir, with all due respect, I do not want it,” Biden recalled the officer saying.

Months later, as the angry and divisive 2016 presidential campaign kicked into high gear, Biden’s story of the medal ceremony grew more harrowing and less accurate. He told it at an October rally for Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton in response to comments from Trump suggesting that some troops weren’t mentally strong enough to handle the rigors of combat. “Where the hell is he from?” Biden asked of Trump that day in Florida.

This time, Biden shifted the setting from Afghanistan to Iraq. Instead of rappelling down a ravine, an Army captain pulled a dead soldier out of a burning Humvee.

[BannonsLiver]

49. Disqualifying1!11!!

[bluewater]

54. Honestly, it seems like it could be.

The upshot: In the space of three minutes, Biden got the time period, the location, the heroic act, the type of medal, the military branch and the rank of the recipient wrong, as well as his own role in the ceremony.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/as-he-campaigns-for-president-joe-biden-tells-a-moving-but-false-war-story/2019/08/29/b5159676-c9aa-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html

[redstateblues]

51. Sad that some folks spend their days scouring the internet looking for

Biden's gaffes. It must be frustrating that so many people like Joe and will vote for him and that they don't care about his malaprops. Reminds me of Wiley Coyote trying to catch the Roadrunner. Just when you think you've found the gaffe that will sink his campaign nobody but a few talking heads on MSNBC and posters on the internet care.

[bluewater]

53. CNN ran it as a breaking news story

[melman]

58. Doesn't take all that much scouring to find the Washington Post

[bluewater]

71. This story is starting to be picked up all over the media...

It's not going to be just on the Washington Post.

[Princetonian]

89. Good. Folks can decide for themselves whether they give a sh*t what the media thinks...

... but I kinda doubt it given results like this...

[bluewater]

90. Seems all the leading Candidates beat Trump. Lets go with one with less gaffes.

Last edited Thu Aug 29, 2019, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

August 15, 2019.

Methodology
Interviews were conducted August 11-13, 2019 among a random national sample of 1,013 registered voters (RV). Landline (222) and cellphone (791) telephone numbers were randomly selected for inclusion in the survey using a probability proportionate to size method, which means phone numbers for each state are proportional to the number of voters in each state. Results based on the full sample have a margin of sampling error of ± 3 percentage points.

[Princetonian]

98. That is an old Faux News poll from weeks ago with a higher MOE than Emerson's poll which is recent.

That old Faux News poll has inferior MOE to Emerson's +/- 2.5% and is from Aug 11-13 not Aug 24-26.

You did not provide a link so I could check but I would wager that the Faux News poll's N value and methodology is inferior to Emerson's aug 24-26 poll (seen below) as well.



Emerson's poll data was weighted by age, region, income, and education based on 2016 turnout modeling.

[bluewater]

94. hey this chart shows how all the top Dems defeat Trump! Good News!

August 15, 2019.

Methodology
Interviews were conducted August 11-13, 2019 among a random national sample of 1,013 registered voters (RV). Landline (222) and cellphone (791) telephone numbers were randomly selected for inclusion in the survey using a probability proportionate to size method, which means phone numbers for each state are proportional to the number of voters in each state. Results based on the full sample have a margin of sampling error of ± 3 percentage points.

[Princetonian]

99. Again, that is an old Faux News poll whose MOE is higher than Emerson's poll which is very recent.

That old Faux News poll has inferior MOE to Emerson's +/- 2.5% and is from Aug 11-13 not Aug 24-26.

You did not provide a link so I could check but I would wager that the Faux News poll's N value and methodology is inferior to Emerson's aug 24-26 poll (seen below) as well.



Emerson's poll data was weighted by age, region, income, and education based on 2016 turnout modeling.

[bluewater]

107. Fox News Poll is A rated, Emerson Poll is just B+ rated by 538

And the methodology seems very comparable.

Methodology

Interviews were conducted August 11-13, 2019 among a random national sample of 1,013 registered voters (RV). Landline (222) and cellphone (791) telephone numbers were randomly selected for inclusion in the survey using a probability proportionate to size method, which means phone numbers for each state are proportional to the number of voters in each state. Results based on the full sample have a margin of sampling error of ± 3 percentage points

So you want to UNSKEW the fox News poll now? lol

Honestly most Democrats would be HAPPY that an A rated major poll showed more Democrats beating Trump.

[redstateblues]

125. Maybe this will be the one that turns Dems against him!!!

[bluewater]

128. His gaffes and lapses have been throwing a wet blanket on his own campaign.

They are probably why Joe Biden is polling only at 29% average support instead of significantly higher.

[redstateblues]

123. Just one of many from the Biden bashers

[LincolnRossiter]

59. Matt Viser's stories since Biden announced in April. Most are negative. The guy's obsessed or

working an agenda.


* = negative



*As he campaigns for president, Joe Biden tells a moving but false war story

*Evoking 1968 at town hall, Biden asks: What would have happened if Obama had been assassinated?

*Joe Biden’s campaign plays the electability card: ‘You have to look at who is going to win’

Parkland students unveil sweeping gun-control proposal and hope for a youth voting surge in 2020

A toxic rift opens between Democrats and Israel after the nation refuses entry to two members of Congress

*Will Biden’s gaffes catch up to him in 2020?

*Trump is trying to turn Biden’s gaffes into a major liability

*Democrats descend on Iowa — with renewed anxiety: Democrats urgently want to defeat President Trump, and Joe Biden — for now — is their top choice. But with his age and his gaffes, there’s a nagging concern about whether he’s up to the job.

*Biden tells minority voters in Iowa that ‘poor kids’ are just as bright as ‘white kids’

Biden, Booker attack Trump with scathing words — and different messages

Joe Biden pushes for federal gun buyback program, assault weapons ban in wake of mass shootings

No ‘joyful warriors’: Democrats fret over negative tone of primary fight

Democrats pull no punches on second night of primary debate: Harris and Biden bear brunt of rivals’ attacks during exchange.

In contentious Democratic debate, deep divisions on health care separate liberals and moderates

Candidates, expecting explosive faceoffs, sharpen their lines for Round 2 of the Democratic presidential debates

Feuding among Biden, Booker and Harris is unpredictable force in diversifying Democratic Party

*Biden announces criminal justice policy sharply at odds with his ’94 crime law

Democrats debate how far left is too far left as they prepare to take on Trump

*Joe Biden’s Senate records could answer questions about his past actions — but they’re being kept secret

*Joe Biden earned $15.6 million in the two years after leaving the vice presidency

*Biden says he regrets remarks about working with segregationists, but stands by his record on issues of race

*Bravado or belligerent, it’s Joe Biden’s response to nearly everything: ‘C’mon, man!’

Democrats convulse over race as debate exchange reverberates: An electric moment in which Sen. Kamala D. Harris took on Joe Biden has spawned days of disagreement that plays on party divisions.

‘It was not a good night’: Reviews of O’Rourke’s debate performance show perils of his candidacy

*Once the poorest senator, ‘Middle Class Joe’ Biden has reaped millions in income since leaving the vice presidency

*Tensions ripple through Biden campaign as his past working relationship with a segregationist senator comes to the forefront

Biden, Sanders to share debate stage after a lopsided drawing divides presidential candidates for two events this month

*A mutual target: Democrats join President Trump in punching at Joe Biden

Biden and Trump exchange fire in Iowa, ignoring others in the field

*Joe Biden asked for a pen. Then he reversed a position he’d held for four decades.

*Feud over abortion adds to questions about Joe Biden’s vulnerabilities

*Joe Biden’s campaign acknowledges lifting language from other groups for its policy plans

Democrats are divided: Work with Republicans — or wage war against them?

*Trump and allies take aim at Biden — and his family — as their top Democratic target

*Climate change tests Joe Biden as he confronts a major question for Democrats: Is any compromise too much?

*They worked for Obama. They’re not supporting Biden — yet.

*Joe Biden’s strong debut puts pressure on other candidates vying to challenge Trump

*Joe Biden’s message to Donald Trump: I’m no socialist

Asylum changes show Trump’s 2020 focus will again be on the border, presenting tough choices for Democrats

*Joe Biden’s big test: To overcome the same problems that doomed his first two presidential campaigns

*With push on labor, Biden aims nascent campaign directly at Trump, who is eager to engage

*The arc of Joe Biden: The ‘young fella’ becomes the candidate of experience, but is still chasing the presidency

Joe Biden to enter 2020 presidential race with Thursday video announcement

*Joe Biden’s long-running no apology tour hits the #MeToo era

*Joe Biden makes joking reference to controversy over touching women

[Iliyah]

68. And the DU have threads for all of them and responses thereto . . .

[Freethinker65]

62. JFC. We have a President that lies about affairs, phone calls, trade deals...

Repeats false stories about white sex trafficking vans and blue duct tape, baby killing doctors, Mexico sending us their murderers and rapists, caravans, walls that are not built, largest crowds ever, Democrats wanting open borders, even bedbugs at Doral!

We have a First Lady, third soft core porn model wife, that supposedly speaks seven languages fluently and at one time was said to have immigrated on an architecture degree genius grant.

We have Supreme Court justices and AGs confirmed that willfully lie under oath to Congress, and Trump's kids and in-laws are gifted security clearances.

...And some people on DU are concerned about known gaffe prone Joe Biden mixing up dates and events about things that really happened? Seriously?

Look. I am not a Biden fan. He is not my first choice. He also has way more relevant life experience and experiences to try to keep straight than most that seek the Presidency. Hillary was phenomenal at names, and dates, and geography, and law, and how government works...but a couple of misspeaks and we allowed the GOP destroy her.

Do not fall for this again.

I assume Joe, if he becomes the nominee and every other potential Democratic nominee, will/would pick a strong Veep and Cabinet and surround himself/herself with amazingly qualified and professional WH staff. That is what we need to focus on.

If Biden wins the Presidency I would not be surprised if he only decides to serve one term.

[Thekaspervote]

86. This!! I have no doubt that if for ANY reason mr. Biden feels, or his advisors tell him he

Should resign due to health issues and pass the torch that he will

[blm]

64. I highly doubt they were deliberate. He's not a liar.

It’s not unusual to get some stories mixed up when you have such an eventful life.

[highplainsdem]

65. Six of the last nine stories Viser wrote for the Post have been about Biden gaffes.

[Princetonian]

67. People in the real world don't give a shit but Viser knows it's click bait for VP Joe bashers.

Perhaps a LTTE and a note to the WaPo ombudsman as well as in Comments is in order. Such obvious bias certainly should not go unrewarded.

Who does he praise? Is he a friend of Sirota?

[PBC_Democrat]

81. Joe is still my guy, but ...

His verbal gaffes are starting to concern me. I don't want him to be able to be portrayed as a doddering old fool that can't think straight.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THAT IS THE CASE!

His age might also become a factor and I pray he doesn't get the flu or fall down - either of those would likely kill his campaign.

[Princetonian]

87. This bullsh*t isn't hurting VP Joe. In fact, he is a teflon-coated "regular Joe".

VP Biden is continuing to outperform every other Democratic candidate.

[bluewater]

95. Good news! All the leading candidates defeat Trump!

?ve=1&tl=1

[Princetonian]

97. That old Faux News poll has inferior MOE to Emerson's +/- 2.5% and is from Aug 11-13 not Aug 24-26.

You did not provide a link so I could check but I would wager that the Faux News poll's N value and methodology is inferior to Emerson's aug 24-26 poll (seen below) as well.



Emerson's poll data was weighted by age, region, income, and education based on 2016 turnout modeling.

[bluewater]

108. Again, Fox News is A rated, Emerson poll is just B+ rated by 538

And the methodology seems very comparable.

Methodology

Interviews were conducted August 11-13, 2019 among a random national sample of 1,013 registered voters (RV). Landline (222) and cellphone (791) telephone numbers were randomly selected for inclusion in the survey using a probability proportionate to size method, which means phone numbers for each state are proportional to the number of voters in each state. Results based on the full sample have a margin of sampling error of ± 3 percentage points

So you want to UNSKEW the fox News poll now? lol

Honestly most Democrats would be HAPPY that an A rated major poll showed more Democrats beating Trump.

[questionseverything]

129. makes me happy that every one of the beats trump!

[bluewater]

130. Me too!

[questionseverything]

137. whoever gets the nomination, we gotta work like we are 10 points down

[rusty fender]

165. Steven Colbert is already

portraying him as a doddering old fool. In fact Colbert is lumping Joe in with Trump as two old fools who shouldn’t be president

[Thekaspervote]

82. And if we picked apart the stories, records, written material of all the candidates..I have no

Doubt that you would find the same thing.

This is Biden bashing at its worst

[LincolnRossiter]

88. That's my problem. Biden's getting more scrutiny than the rest of the front-runners COMBINED.

No one's laid a glove on Warren since the DNA test.

Harris' record has received almost no scrutiny apart from what Gabbard hurled at her in the second debate.

Bernie whines a lot, but I don't see him getting a whole lot of flak.

The closest thing to a negative story Buttigieg got was a couple of news cycles examining his handling of his police department.

Every time Biden flubs a word or detail it's national news. It's starting to piss me off.

[Thekaspervote]

96. Yup! You nailed it

The constant clawing at the front runner gets old. It seems more than coincidental that the day after the latest polls were released showing Biden maintaining a comfortable lead that they do this.

[Otto Lidenbrock]

113. I agree with you on this

The way I see it is Biden is having his entire campaign stump speeches and town halls dissected for gaffes. The people in the room are hearing lengthy talks but we hear only about a stumbles which are what, 30 seconds in an hour sitting. Is this all the reporters took from the speech?

He is under extra scrutiny of course and some of it is self-inflicted but it's going to get to a point where if he dares to take a dramatic pause the headlines will be "Biden freezes mid-speech".

I hyped Beto up on here a couple of days ago but he's also got locations wrong. Kamala used a guy who lost his son to tell his story in her Medicare For All ad but who now is complaining that he was used under false pretences now she has changed her plan somewhat. We're not hearing that in the media.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

104. God I'm tired of this guy.

[cwydro]

151. This article is not a good thing.

It’ll be interesting to see if the other media picks it up.

Bryan Williams probably won’t touch it, lol.

[LisaM]

105. This is common. Didn't Dan Rather conflate a couple of things and it cost him his job?

This is something that our memory does to us. It is the vehicle that our ancestors used for oral history - turn it into in imprinted story, so that the important details can be passed on to a next generation. It's built into us to remember things that way. But now we're in an era where everything is recorded, recorded, recorded, so even minor errors are magnified (while for some reason, major lies, like Trump tells, get a pass).

[Thekaspervote]

110. Exactly...Very well stated..thank you for your sensible post

[bluewater]

121. I though Dan Rather was fired because he became nuttier than squirrel poop.

Something about him claiming he was attacked in the street by two men asking him "Kenneth, what is the frequency." ?

[Autumn]

145. No. Rather did a news report on Bush's "military service" which led to the charge

that the documents used were fake, which was never proved to be true.

https://ew.com/article/2015/12/29/dan-rather-cbs-news-firing/

The former anchor’s reputation was tarnished after the accuracy of his 2004 story questioning President George W. Bush’s military service was publicly disputed by the leader’s administration. The entire saga was recently dramatized on the big screen in Truth, starring Robert Redford as Rather.

“We reported a true story. We didn’t do it perfectly,” the 84-year-old recently told The Hollywood Reporter. “We made some mistakes of getting to the truth. But that didn’t change the truth of what we reported.”

Rather and his producer Mary Mapes (played by Cate Blanchett in Truth) aired a story that alleged that Bush went AWOL during his time in the Texas Air National Guard. The Bush administration charged that the documents used as the basis for the report were inauthentic, leading to an independent investigation that ultimately concluded that the piece disregarded “fundamental journalistic principles.” The documents were not, however, ever proved to be forgeries.

Rather was subsequently removed from the anchor desk before leaving CBS News for good in 2006 after 44 years. The departure wasn’t without controversy — Rather filed a $70 million lawsuit against the news network, a claim that was eventually dismissed.

[LisaM]

162. And......I'm mixing him up with Brian Williams! LOL.

Just goes to show!

[doc03]

111. After Trump tells 12000 lies why would anyone give

a damn if Biden makes a mistake or two.

[treestar]

112. Why should we assume someone else's memory is exactly correct?

And when you have experienced many events, they will jumble in your mind. That includes the other participants who claim they recall differently. Different people can recall the same things differently. It has been well known that there were studies where a scene was acted out in front of a class, then the class was asked to describe it, resulting in many different stories.

[mcar]

114. I recall when HRC made a mistake about a war-area visit

She was completely trashed by the media, the Rs and many on the left.

[ecstatic]

127. Am I wrong to want this type of reporting

to take a break while we work on removing the guy who would like to shut all news organizations (especially the WP) down? What are they trying to accomplish with this article? To paint Biden as a liar? Senile? And where was this type of reporting in 2016?

[Cousin Dupree]

133. No, you are not wrong at all. I'm with you 100%

[Otto Lidenbrock]

134. No you're not wrong.

They're not going to other campaigns and waiting for a slip up to report on. He is the frontrunner - I don't want his campaign to sink because reporters are waiting for slip ups to report on when they could actually tell us why his policy platform is not adequate.

In a town hall event this was what they came out to file to the press. Seriously?

[Cousin Dupree]

131. So we've got a bat-shit crazy lying lunatic in the White House who believes that rules and laws

were not made for him. Our country is in danger. And people are posting all of Joe’s flubs. Keep your eyes on what matters, people! Quit focusing on the wrong things!

[Thekaspervote]

153. Indeed!

[Me.]

143. He's Wandering Into Brian Williams Territory Here

[cwydro]

144. Not good.

Reminds me of the Bryan Williams thing, but pretty sure that was intentional.

Not at all sure what’s going on with Biden. Have his staff responded?

[tymorial]

146. Break out the intellectually dishonest ageism accusations

In the minds of some questioning a candidates advanced age is evidence of bigotry and ageism. It doesn't matter that we generally support the elderly and promote programs to protect their well-being. We question if it is in Americas best interest to promote someone who will become an octogenarian in their first term. We cite the reality that advanced age increases the likelihood if declining health which my impede the ability execute one's responsibility. That doesnt matter though. We are the bigots for considering reason, logic and statistics instead of accepting emotionalism.

[Joe941]

147. This is a nothing burger... next.

[democratisphere]

156. I guess when some are continually supporting those going nowhere,

THIS apparently is the only way they can fight back.

[highplainsdem]

160. David Axelrod thinks this story might have been an oppo research dump, with the reporters given

the info.

In effect, another campaign attacking Biden via the Washington Post.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287259776

[rusty fender]

166. So Joe never made that speech?

[Gothmog]

167. Biden got the important parts of the story correct to the solider who received the medal

BTW, the opinion of the person who was the subject of the last so-called gaffe carries a great deal of weight with me

Link to tweet

Link to tweet