Williamson: Left shouldn't mock people who think prayers can turn away hurricanes

[brooklynite]

The Hill

Marianne Williamson chided people who mocked her for a since-deleted tweet in which she argued the “power of the mind” kept Hurricane Dorian from doing more damage Wednesday.

“Prayer is a power of the mind, and it is neither bizarre nor unintelligent. People of faith belong in the Democratic Party, and will be necessary to the effort if we’re to win in 2020,” the Democratic presidential candidate tweeted.

Link to tweet

“I was born and raised in Texas so I’ve seen it. Millions of people today are praying that Dorian turn away from land, and treating those people with mockery or condescension because they believe it could help is part of how the overly secularized Left has lost lots of voters,” she added.

Some battles aren't worth endlessly fighting...

[True Dough]

1. This one goes out to you, Marianne...

[cvoogt]

2. she's partially right

Alienating religious Dems by ridiculing those who pray is not smart politically. That doesn't mean praying to make a hurricane alter its path isn't ridiculous.

[Voltaire2]

3. I've had about all the irrational idiocy

I can stand. We look like hypocrites if we attack climate deniers and anti vaccers but coddle the nonsense purveyors on our side.

[LonePirate]

12. Exactly. Idiocy does not honor ideological boundaries. It deserves to be mocked.

[cvoogt]

14. I think it is a problem that comes with it being a 'big tent'

and I am not sure it is even a problem. Diversity is a strength. We should want religious Dems in the tent (even ones who pray for silly things), but of course not to the point that it undermines climate change or other objectives. People are complex. The same person who prays for irrational things could also support loads of solidly Dem positions. I guess what I am saying is we should favor inclusion over exclusion; I think inclusion is almost always better; at least it can (maybe) spark dialogue or open people up to new ideas (like for example coming to the realization that you can't pray hurricanes away). I don't think we should write people off so casually.

[qazplm135]

5. how is that kind of prayer any more or less ridiculous

than any other type of prayer?

[unblock]

9. "prayer" is a catchall and includes some non-ridiculous thoughts.

to the extent a prayer asks for powers beyond human capacity, such as willing hurricanes away, sure, that's ridiculous.

but to the extent a prayer asks to focus one's thoughts and energies or to prioritize one's objectives, that's not at all ridiculous, even if it's directed to a non-existent deity.



eta: i shouldn't have even said that praying hurricanes away is "ridiculous". it's perfectly reasonable to express a sincere hope that disaster doesn't strike, and there's nothing wrong with doing that in the form of a prayer. it's only ridiculous when you believe your prayer will actually affect the course of the hurricane.

[cvoogt]

11. I agree with this sentiment.

That latter sort of prayer is more akin to meditation.

[qazplm135]

13. no it's pretty ridiculous

now, it's also more or less harmless, so I don't care.

But praying to a non-existent deity for any reason is pretty objectively ridiculous.

Whether it's for a hurricane to change course, or that someone scores a TD for your favorite team, or for the cancer to go away, or for "focus."

Again, harmless, so people should do what they want in that vein, but calling one version of prayer ridiculous and another version not is, well, ridiculous.

[unblock]

16. disagree.

i'm an atheist who doesn't pray, but i'll accept other people's sincere thoughts even if they express them in the form of an appeal to a deity i don't believe in.

provided they're sincere and not disrespecting *my* beliefs, of course.

if i'm ill and they say they'll pray for my health, i'm not thinking their prayers are going to be heard by some deity i don't believe in and then the doctors will somehow be more effective at healing me. but i'll hear it as them expressing their support and love for me, and if that puts me in a better state of mind to take my medications on schedule or modify my diet because there are people who want me to get better, well, maybe there's something to that after all, even if there's no deity involved.


to my mind, it's the well wishes and expression of love and support that matter, not that it's couched in the form of a prayer or the language of some deity. from the point of view of an atheist, of course the invocation of a deity seems ridiculous, but i can look past that part and accept the sentiment involved.

[qazplm135]

17. who said I didn't accept them?

Like I said, have them. And if you "pray for me" in a nice way, I'll smile and say thank you.

That doesn't make those prayers fundamentally any less ridiculous just because they are nice prayers.

Again, harmless, and if they make people feel better than they have utility.

But the idea that a prayer for a hurricane to move is ridiculous but a prayer for other things is somehow different?
No.

[unblock]

19. you're spelling out exactly how you can distinguish.

prayers that couldn't possibly help anything (praying away hurricanes) or worse, get in the way of constructive action (thoughts and prayers after gun violence) *are* ridiculous.

prayers that are harmless or make people feel better or otherwise have some utility are *not* ridiculous, or are certainly far less ridiculous than the above type of prayer.


if it makes you feel better to define "prayer" as meaning only the first type, and to call the second type "meditation" or "well-wishing", fine.

[qazplm135]

24. praying for me

cannot possibly help anything at all.

meditation isn't prayer isn't well-wishing.

words have meaning.

[unblock]

26. that's simply false.

prayer can and often is well-wishing and/or meditation couched in god language.

if "i wish you well and hope you get better" or "i'm rooting for you in the big game" can do any good at all for you, then "i'll pray for your health" or "may god grant you victory" does the same thing, even if we roll our eyes at the god language.


at least we're agreeing that "may god keep the hurricane away" is not going to change weather patterns. it takes a sharpie to do that!

[qazplm135]

29. no, it isn't

each word means something different.

Prayer invokes a higher power to intervene. It's the literal meaning of the word.

Wishing well is simply an expression of support. It does not involve higher powers or magic.

Granted, both do the same thing (nothing other than provide comfort or camaraderie which usually is a positive thing by itself of course), but they are different expressions with different motivations and foci.

We will just have to agree to disagree I think.

[cwydro]

27. Good post.

[Drunken Irishman]

20. Do you think it's sound strategy for a candidate to call prayer ridiculous?

Would you advocate for your candidate to go on national television and state, "praying to a non-existent deity for any reason is pretty objectively ridiculous..."?

I doubt you'd think that would be sound policy at all and would likely end that person's campaign regardless of how popular they are. Why? Because a strong majority of this country still believes in, what you describe as a 'non-existent deity' and positioning yourself on the side of mocking a significant portion of the country is absolute shit policy.

So, how is pushing a narrative like this helpful in the least? You replied dismissing the concern that this type of rhetoric can alienate specific Democrats - by focusing on even harder rhetoric.

It's a damaging, divisive statement to suggest it's ridiculous. If it doesn't harm anyone, why even force the issue? Unless you're just looking to start an argument. There's a reason no candidate would come remotely close to saying what you just did because they realize it's not ridiculous. What's ridiculous is mocking 89% of Americans who either believe in God or believe in a higher force.

[qazplm135]

25. Was I talking to a candidate?

Or was I talking to a poster who remarked on a particular person's prayer as ridiculous?

[Drunken Irishman]

31. Your reply was referencing a point about candidates...

...and how that alienates people. But it's clear you think it would, so the idea to me is divisive rhetoric being ridiculous and serves no purpose.

[qazplm135]

32. No my reply

Was pretty darn specific.

[Blue_true]

33. That pretty much is how I view prayer.

If it makes people feel better and calmer and allows them to focus on doing things that truly do make a difference, I have no issue with it at all.

[smb]

4. Let Me Know When She...

...raises her poll numbers above 2% with the power of her mind.

[cvoogt]

15. !! ha !!

[DrToast]

6. Why not?

We mock people that ignore the science on climate change, right? Show me the science on “praying away hurricanes.”

[GemDigger]

18. I wonder if she is praying to G-d or to the hurricane... nt

[Blue_true]

34. People that pray are quick to talk about God's plans.

So God created the hurricane. According to people that pray, God has a plan, God knows what the hurricane will do and where it will go. So prayer only makes people feel better, it does nothing to God's plan.

[defacto7]

7. The people of the Bahamas must be weak minded, less in tune with the universe,

or god is simply interested in the numbers. A deity's polls are of utmost importance.

[3catwoman3]

8. IIRC, isn't part of her outlook a belief that...

...people attract into their lives positive and negative experiences based on the power of their thinking. Something along the lines of “if something bad happens to me, it’s because I allowed it to happen.”

I first heard of her when she appeared on Oprah years ago, and, although I am likely paraphrasing after so long, that seemed to be the essence of her message. I thought then that it was bullshit and charlatanism.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

10. The mask is slipping.

[standingtall]

21. There is nothing wrong with praying to turn away hurricanes

there is nothing wrong with hoping prayers turn away hurricanes, it only gets ridiculous when you start to expect them to.

[NurseJackie]

22. How does she feel about mocking them for their "pray away the gay" belief?

How does she feel about mocking them for their "pray away the gay" belief? Or when they "pray for Obama's death" or when they "pray that a hurricane destroys the Sodomite-loving city of Orlando" ... is that okay?

[DrFunkenstein]

35. Ummm...

[USALiberal]

23. So god could stop the hurricane but needs prayers first? Nt

[tanyev]

28. I've got no problem with people trying to pray away hurricanes.

I just don’t want anyone who thinks that’s a viable solution to get elected to public office.

[applegrove]

30. I mocked you Williamson and i was wrong.

[iwannaknow]

36. There is a 'Christian Left' and we need them

And yes, they do pray. But that's not all they do. I suspect Marianne would be the first to say thoughts and prayers alone will not suffice. They should be coupled with action.