Bernie Sanders in climate change 'population control' uproar

[Eugene]

Source: BBC

Bernie Sanders in climate change 'population control' uproar

5 September 2019

Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders has been criticised after arguing population control should be part of tackling climate change.

The Vermont senator told a TV debate that women "in poor countries" should have access to birth control.

Conservatives said the remark meant the self-described democratic socialist's climate change policy was for fewer "brown babies".

The UN forecasts the Earth's population will rise to 11 billion by 2100.

On social media on Thursday, Mr Sanders was likened to a Marvel movie villain.

-snip-

Read more: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49601678

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Of course, if the right has its way, once these babies are born, they're on their own.

Sanders has a valid point, but he fumbled the delivery.

[BlueMississippi]

1. K&R nt

[Voltaire2]

2. So women in poor countries shouldn't have access to birth control?

Or we just aren't supposed to say that?

[Newest Reality]

5. I guess not.

It seems it was "spinned" in the wrong direction. Sanders maybe should have qualified it more.

I don't think that population control is off the table, but the wording is wrong, i.e., "control". Population management does not have to be about particular groups, but about education and access to contraception which is choice, as per your mention about women in poor countries, where population growth is still an issue due to that.

Population is not off the table when it comes to the complex issues surrounding climate change. It seems that, since we are facing a potential extinction event of untold proportions, people who have problems with it for the wrong reasons are not very well versed yet on the width and breadth and severity of what is occurring and how the various climactic feedback loops could accelerate, exponentially even, the effects.

[Autumn]

10. The word "control" is the problem? How so?

[Newest Reality]

15. Isn't that obvious?

It has been a commonly used phrase. I think that circumstances have changed and it has negative connotations that are not intended. I would refer to China's failed experiment in said, and also eugenics comes to mind.

So, as far as I am concerned, the semantics can be adjusted to avoid those implications and get down to the pragmatism of managing populations in relation to resources and climate impact. When we focus on education and access to contraception then managing that involves cooperation and agreement, not control.

So, one can mince words on that, but times have changed and so do the ways we phrase things.

[Autumn]

19. I can see all that if Bernie had talked about population control. He didn't.

He used the word "control" three times in what I think is the proper way. Twice he used the words
"birth control" as in and once he used the phrase:

"The answer has everything to do with the fact that women in the United States of America, by the way, have a right to control their own bodies, and make reproductive decisions.

"The Mexico City Agreement which denies American aid to those organizations around the world that allow women to have abortions or even get involved in birth control to me is totally absurd.

"So I think, especially in poor countries around the world where women do not necessarily want to have large numbers of babies, and where they can have the opportunity through birth control to control the number of kids they have, is something I very, very strongly support."

[Demsrule86]

74. The media made it up as usual...and population control ...providing birth control to women in poor

countries should be part of any environmental/climate change policy. I think the media has been very unfair to Biden and to Sanders. I see nothing in this article that says Sanders wanted to force poor women to use birth control...just to provide access which is a good thing...fair is fair.

[George II]

6. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

[Voltaire2]

13. by private jet.

[George II]

24. Private jet in a discussion about climate change?

[Autumn]

25. Yes, private jet is part of this discussion about climate change.

[Cha]

27. Irony is dead.

[George II]

28. Indeed. But I can see who drew the short straw today.

[Me.]

31. Maggie H ...The Susan Miller Of this Presidency

Hoa

[Me.]

30. THe Private Jets BS Favors?

[George II]

35. I seem to recall something about private jets provided by the DNC for the fall GE campaign....

....in 2016. Not getting that may explain the lukewarm and scarce campaign for Secretary Clinton back then.

[Me.]

42. I Was Thinking Of That Luxury Trip To Rome

[George II]

44. Yes, that too. That's the campaign expense that the FEC rejected as improper.

[Me.]

46. OUCH

Out of pocket then

[George II]

47. Either that or one of the guys who sold out to the foreign conglomerate Unilever.

[questionseverything]

53. there are some very conservative dems that will do anything to smear bernie

there are down thread

every woman should have access to birth control

there was nothing wrong with what he said

[Thekaspervote]

3. Marvel movie villain... ouch

[Cuthbert Allgood]

38. Wanting women to have access to birth control is a Marvel movie villain?

Worst. Villain. Ever.

"What are you going to do, torture me and then kill me?"
"No. Absolutely not. Just wondering if you want to be able to have access to birth control."

[floppyboo]

4. wasn't he addressing reproductive health to aid recipient countries being banned by Trump?

You'd have to be pretty right wing, or not understand women's health to get excited by this.

[Autumn]

9. Yes he was addressing that. I'm going to grab a bucket of

and sit right here.

[George II]

7. "Population control"? What's next?

[Ghost Dog]

14. Policy to promote sustainable population dynamics.

Population dynamics is the branch of life sciences that studies the size and age composition of populations as dynamical systems, and the biological and environmental processes driving them. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_dynamics

[George II]

16. Nothing at that link discusses population control.

[Autumn]

21. Bernie didn't discuss population control. He didn't even mention population control.

That was Ted Cruz and the conservatives who accused him of wanting to use tax dollars to pay to abort "brown babies".

Fucking bullshit conservatives.

[Blue_true]

57. In real history, every time population dynamics has been used, people have been slaughtered.

Why does Bernie put the onus on some poor woman in a country where having more male children is considered desirable. Why not look at Prince William having three children so far, instead of stopping at two, or other well off people that have big families?

[Blue_true]

56. You know what's next George. Eugenics, picking "superior" people.

Everytime attempts have been made to control human populations, the effort has ended in unspeakable horrors.

[CrispyQ]

8. Women "everywhere" should have access to affordable birth control.

There. I fixed it. I agree he kind of fumbled the delivery, especially considering the war on women's reproductive rights going on right here in our own country. Pharmacists refusing to fill BC scripts, de-funding Planned Parenthood, self-righteous men trying to control our most private decisions.

[Voltaire2]

12. women in poor countries dependent on government and ngo clinics

have their access curtailed or blocked because of the efforts of, for example, the Trump administration. It isn't a first world problem.

[CrispyQ]

17. So poor women in our country who are blocked out of access to BC/abortion/reproductive health care,

because of the same administration's policies, don't count cuz they live in a first world country? It's a global problem. That was the point.

[Autumn]

20. None of that has anything to do with Bernie's reply to the question he was asked that got

conservatives all wound up. The fact that poor women in our country are blocked out of access to BC/abortion/reproductive health care has nothing to do with climate change. Blame that on the politicians who deny funding to Planned Parenthood and restrict access to abortion and birth control.

He was asked

"Empowering women and educating everyone on the need to curb population growth seems a reasonable campaign to enact. Would you be courageous enough to discuss this issue and make it a key feature of a plan to address climate catastrophe?"

His response was

"Well, Martha, the answer is yes.
"The answer has everything to do with the fact that women in the United States of America, by the way, have a right to control their own bodies, and make reproductive decisions.

"The Mexico City Agreement which denies American aid to those organizations around the world that allow women to have abortions or even get involved in birth control to me is totally absurd.

"So I think, especially in poor countries around the world where women do not necessarily want to have large numbers of babies, and where they can have the opportunity through birth control to control the number of kids they have, is something I very, very strongly support."

[Demsrule86]

75. The ACA medicaid expansion was supposed to take care of this but if a Democrat wins and we get the

house, we can put in a public option for those folks who's GOP states literally dedicded to kill them rather than have health care.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

11. Actually, the UN is probably way high in their estimates of population growth.

Most countries are already below replacement rate in terms of birth, and the birth rates are dropping very rapidly in other countries.

For further information, read "Empty Planet" by Darrell Bricker and John Ibbitson. It's fascinating.

[Blue_true]

58. Hasn't it been shown that as women become better educated and

have better career opportunities, they have fewer children?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

66. Yes. And that has been confirmed in the vastly lower

child bearing rates in many countries. All of the first world countries are below replacement rates. Some significantly below. Countries that do not allow immigration are making a huge mistake, as immigrants are crucial to performing lots of tasks.

But your essential question about women becoming better educated and having fewer children is crucial. Everywhere women who have even minimal education choose to have fewer children.

Really, you need to look up birth rate information and you'll be astonished at what you learn. Just Google "fertility rate" and the country you're interested in. Even very Catholic countries like Brazil or Italy have birth rates well below the replacement rate.

[msongs]

18. nature has ways of correcting overpopulations of various species nt

[Eric J in MN]

22. It's a right-wing uproar.

I’m not aware of anyone on the left disagreeing with Bernie Sanders saying that women everywhere should have access to birth control and abortion.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

54. Stick around. You'll see it. Former Reagan voters.

[CTyankee]

23. Bernie please, please get some advisors that can help you express what you mean in your heart

without it coming out sounding (or interpreted as sounding) so wrong for the present time. We are both in our 70s and I remember the times that you remember. I experienced them too. But you have to listen to some of your younger advisors and update your message where necessary. There is nothing wrong with admitting you needed to modulate your message. It is hurting us and I am sure you don't want that. Listen more.

[Autumn]

26. Is Bernie wrong saying that women "in poor countries" should have access to birth control?

What part of that message needs to be updated?

[Joe941]

45. What people heard is the poor are having too many babies.

[Autumn]

67. No. That's not what they heard at all. They might think that but they didn't hear that.

Bernie never said anything like that. Not even close.

[Joe941]

72. I know - your preaching to the choir...

[Blue_true]

59. No, he is not wrong. But he could have said it differently.

Women everywhere should have access to birth control if they want it.

[Autumn]

68. And THAT was just what he said. It's in the article. The whole quote, his whole answer to the

question was exactly that.

The question

"Empowering women and educating everyone on the need to curb population growth seems a reasonable campaign to enact, "Would you be courageous enough to discuss this issue and make it a key feature of a plan to address climate catastrophe?

His answer

Well, Martha, the answer is yes.

"The answer has everything to do with the fact that women in the United States of America, by the way, have a right to control their own bodies, and make reproductive decisions.

"The Mexico City Agreement which denies American aid to those organisations around the world that allow women to have abortions or even get involved in birth control to me is totally absurd.

"So I think, especially in poor countries around the world where women do not necessarily want to have large numbers of babies, and where they can have the opportunity through birth control to control the number of kids they have, is something I very, very strongly support."

How would you have said it since his answer wasn't clear enough that "Women everywhere should have access to birth control if they want it." ?

[George II]

29. If Biden had said that they'd be off on him again for being a "gaffe machine".

[Autumn]

32. What did Bernie say that was a gaffe George? What did he say that was wrong?

[George II]

33. Autumn, why are you following me all over DU tonight?

[Autumn]

34. I've just encountered you 3 times in this thread tonight. Yesterday you encountered me 6 times

in one thread. Were you following me?

[George II]

36. I guess that's your answer and explanation. Thanks!

[Autumn]

69. How about an answer from you George. You've had time to read the article.

What did Bernie say that was a gaffe George? What did he say that was wrong? By the way, private jet was mentioned in the article. Reading is fundamental.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

39. Interesting that you dodge the question.

What did he say that was a gaffe?

[Blue_true]

61. He should have said women everywhere should have access to birth control.

The way he said it puts the issue more on the shoulders of women in poor countries. What he did is roughly equivalent to Biden saying that he worked with segregationists. What Biden meant was there are some cases where he had to work with segregationists to get legistlation that was important to everyone passed. What Bernie meant is that the exploding world population is a problem that will present serious consequences for the world.

[Autumn]

71. Not even close. He pointed out our government is putting the issue on women in poor countries.

by refusing aid to allow them access to birthcontol and abortion. Nothing at all to do with your comparison. Not even in the same ballpark.

"The answer has everything to do with the fact that women in the United States of America, by the way, have a right to control their own bodies, and make reproductive decisions.

"The Mexico City Agreement which denies American aid to those organizations around the world that allow women to have abortions or even get involved in birth control to me is totally absurd.

"So I think, especially in poor countries around the world where women do not necessarily want to have large numbers of babies, and where they can have the opportunity through birth control to control the number of kids they have, is something I very, very strongly support."

[Lordquinton]

40. Why are you dodging the question George?

[George II]

41. Lulz.

[jcgoldie]

37. Women in poor countries should have access to birth control

That's somehow supposed to be a criticism of Bernie Sanders? WTF?

[roody]

50. Is that called grasping at straws?

[Joe941]

43. The fact of the matter is the world pop needs to be limited to 500 million.

[Baclava]

49. Well just get India in a nuke war with Pakistan, that should knock off a billion for starters

Of course a good world war with China and their billions is the real prize.

Ayep, now that's real population control, too many breeders now since the massive kill off from WWII, humans need war to thin the herd, ayep

Its the only way to be sure

[tirebiter]

60. They'e doing it quite well on their own

Revolutions led by communists like Mao and Pol Pot have worked really hard to outdo the fascists of WWII. Say what you will about capitalists they need shoppers for there to be a market.

[Blue_true]

64. War or starvation on a massive scale, neither of which we would tolerate for long,

at least not for the amount of death that gets us back to 500 million people worldwide.

[Baclava]

73. Humans should really just get over this taboo of cannibalism, meat is meat

What was it the islanders called the first Europeans? Long pig I believe.

[Blue_true]

63. Wow. Do you realize what you just wrote?

What you just wrote is that a boulder should return to it's original resting place after it has fallen a long way.

The world currently has around 7 billion people. How do we get back to 500 million without enormous calamity?

[Joe941]

70. It's not a short term goal - It doesnt happen in our lifetimes...

It should happen over centuries. I didn't pull that number out of thin air. There are studies suggesting the world can only support that number in a sustainable way. Nature will eventually do it for us if we wont do it ourselves. This way of life is simply not sustainable. The real problem is it's hard to get people to plan for even 10yrs let alone 200yrs.

[Blue_true]

83. So, we are at 7 billion people, but you saw studies that said the world can only

sustainably support 500 million people? Seems that train left the station more than ten times ago.

What will start to kill us off is either we kill too much net oxygen producing species, or we run out of the capacity to feed everyone. At this time we have around three trillion trees and 7 billion people, if one rules out net oxygen from the oceans, we have more that enough of the 8 trees needed to support each person on earth, but deforestation from several causes is decreasing the three trillion trees, as our population growth continues. On the food front, China is already mastering large-scale tower farms for animals, while companies like Birdseye have been doing the same for plants. Tower farms will extend the capacity to feed people to several times the current number, so it will be a while before food limits population growth. I think that space will ultimately be a larger factor, as crowded locations will see an increase in anger killings as people get more crowded.

I remember a Bond Movie that was based upon an actual study. Rats were put into a confined space and fed adequate food and water. They bred and made more rats, even as the space for each got lower. Then the food and water was progressively reduced. The rats became more violent, attacking eachother over space. What the study didn't do is where the movie scene went to, the researcher stopped all food and water and the rats became cannibals with the strongest survive ethic, that continued until only one rat was left.

[cynatnite]

85. Thanos, is that you?

[roody]

48. Educating girls will mean less babies.

[questionseverything]

52. woman having access to birth control will mean less babies

period

[roody]

78. And if she can read, she is more likely to choose birth control and be

more likely to make decisions for herself. See the book Drawing Down. Sorry don't know how to underline.

[underpants]

51. Heard it on talk radio today "Eugenics"

[Blue_true]

65. The way that Bernie accidentally said it, does lead to eugenics.

A class of people having the burden of population control placed upon them. In the hands of the evil that leads to the holocaust, sterilization of Black men and women in the segregated USA, genocidal campaign run through history.

[Autumn]

76. How does access to birth control and abortion in poor countries where women are frequently

pregnant at a very early age and have no choice but to have more children than they want or that they can afford to provide for lead to eugenics? How? How does the choice to have access to birth control or abortion by women in poor countries lead to improving a human population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics? I eagerly await an answer on how the US providing funding for women to access birth control and abortion in poor countries leads to eugenics.

[Blue_true]

80. Listen, I think that Bernie made a good point and is a good person.

But eugenics is not carried out by good people. Bad people latch onto phrases like Bernie inadvertently uttered to produce tragedy. Bernie said that women controlling their bodies is best for them and the world, unfortunately he included the poor country part, which is what racists latch onto and drop the best for the women part as they drive to eliminate undesirables. Efforts at exterminating a specific group of people just don't morph out of thin air, they come from years of observations made about those people, both correct and good observations, and observations that are bad and seek to make them "others".

[Autumn]

82. Women in poor countries don't have access to birth control. They should. Providing them

with birth control will in no way lead to eugenics or extermination. It gives them a choice that they don't have now. The only ones screaming about birth control in poor countries leading to extermination and eugenics are fucking conservatives. The same conservatives in the article and on TV , like McCains spawn on the View this morning who wouldn't give a fuck if a woman in one of those poor countries and her 8 or 10 children fucking starved to death.

[Blue_true]

84. Conservatives typically are the ones that ultimately carry out things like eugenics.

Maybe they are screaming about Bernie's misspoken but correct observation because they they believe in their hearts that there truly are "inferior" people in the world. Maybe you're right, the whole thing about what Bernie mistakenly said is being taken out of context, but I hope that you can see that in history, good and correct statements have eventually been used to bring about evil (certainly not what a person like Bernie would want, but the words of great thinkers through time have been distorted by evil minds, Bernie is not immune to having his words twisted for wrong ends).

[Autumn]

86. Yes conservatives believe there truly are "inferior" people in the world. Bernie told the truth,

nothing he said was a mistake. Anyone who listened to what Bernie said knows for a fact that conservatives are lying and twisting what he said. Fuck conservatives and fuck their opinions.

[progressoid]

79. OFFS. No, it doesn't.

[Blue_true]

55. I agree with your last sentence.

He should have said that people worldwide should think about the number of children they bear in the context of how it will affect the earth.

[myohmy2]

62. makes sense to me...

" The Vermont senator told a TV debate that women "in poor countries" should have access to birth control. "

...women everywhere should have access to birth control...

...you can't tell me the 8 billion already here aren't over stressing and destroying the planet...

...there is no storage of human genetic material on the planet...more population will only lead to more wars as everyone pursues dwindling resources...and just think about the further destruction of the environment...

...they can twist what Bernie says all they want but we know what he means...


https://berniesanders.com/issues/

...

[c-rational]

77. I had a conversation yesterday with my gardener philosopher friend, and he said anytime

population control was mentioned as part of climate change that position took a beating. I recalled of learning of China's one child program in my freshman year of college. They may well have been on the correct path. The gardner also pointed out that the earth's population has tracked well with oil production, as fertilizer (nitrogen) is a byproduct. To be successful in the climate fight, we must not ignore facts. The earth does have a 'capacity' for human beings and we should recognize that.

[Blue_true]

81. Modern population growth should track well to improvements in food availability.

That is why I think that once we can no longer have enough food to feed everyone properly, statements, even good and correct ones that highlight a class of people that are not as economically developed as others become extremely dangerous and could lead to efforts like eugenics and extermination.