I could be wrong, but IMO with her MFA financing plan plus the agreement that 2 million jobs

[highplainsdem]

could be lost with MFA, Warren has soldered a very large virtual anchor around her neck.

One that I know a lot of her supporters were hoping she'd avoid by backing away from MFA.

For the Democratic Party's sake, I hope she won't be the nominee.

I'll vote for her if I have to, if she's the nominee. But I think she's done serious damage to her candidacy and to the viability of MFA as a policy to run on, and by extension to the Sanders campaign.

[msongs]

1. medicare as an option for those who want it is a winner nt

[Freddie]

2. +1000

[highplainsdem]

3. Yes, the public option is a winner. But Warren's made it clear she's for MFA, and she can't

back away from it now.

[peggysue2]

35. It is a winner

Which is why I expected Elizabeth Warren to pivot to something more reasonable like a public option, which in itself would be a huge leap forward towards universal coverage.

Unfortunately, she's made her decision; she'll now have to live with it.

[TidalWave46]

38. That got us the ACA. NT

[groundloop]

4. Got a link to a reputable news site ?????

The only places I've been able to find which are claiming this are right wing sites.

[highplainsdem]

6. Her financing plan is all over the news. Her agreeing that 2 million jobs could be lost

was during a public radio interview, and the video of the full interview was posted here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287330127

That section starts about 17 minutes in, as I recall.

[BeyondGeography]

8. All they have is the National Review headline that Yahoo picked up

But they’ll keep pushing it. Beats talking about Joe’s Iowa poll numbers.

[highplainsdem]

9. See reply 6. Video of the interview for public radio.

[BeyondGeography]

10. Been there, done this

[highplainsdem]

11. So you won't accept what everyone can see and hear her saying?

[Bradshaw3]

14. She said losing jobs would be "part of the cost."

She did not "admit" that 2 milion jobs would be lost. But hey why let a RW sourced opinion piece get in the way of a good smear?

And BTW, losing jobs that perform no function other than to serve insurance companies so funds can go toward actual healthcare is exactly what our healthcare system needs. Haven't seen all the posts from Biden supporters here ripping GM and other companies for shipping jobs overseas. But getting rid of needless healthcare jobs, oh that's a game changer.

[highplainsdem]

24. She didn't disagree with the number. Nor did she offer even a hint of a transition plan for

all those people, even though she was specifically asked about "a just transition, a fair transition."

[peggysue2]

36. She said . . .

"So, I agree." Then she went on to say this was part of the cost issues we'd need to take into consideration.

If the number mentioned--2 million jobs--was so off-the-wall a reasonable person would have expected Senator Warren to immediately say, 'no, no, those figures are incorrect.'

She did not refute the number. Instead, she agreed.

I do not understand how anyone can dispute what is clearly on the video.

I suspect Warren will need to clarify her position. Because this will definitely come up again.

[Turin_C3PO]

5. This election is going to be a referendum on Trump,

not MFA. I’ll work just as hard to see Warren or any other candidate beat Trump as I would Biden.

[highplainsdem]

25. I wish that were true. But if it were just a referendum on Trump, all the match-up GE polls would

show all our candidates doing equally well against him.

[OKNancy]

7. I'd like to know how she proposes to pay for all the other high dollar plans

she has laid out. On top of Medicare For All she has proposed
1. more funding for Public Education
2. universal child care
3. student loans wiped out
4. green energy plan
5. build affordable housing

not a complete list

--- not saying all these things aren't admirable, but on top of M4A I just don't see how it can be financed in a way that will get people to vote for a Democrat.

[Skya Rhen]

12. These plans can't be funded - ever - but the false promises sound good and they excite people.

[OKNancy]

13. not ever funded and never passed

even with Democratic control of the House and Senate

[Bradshaw3]

15. They said the same thing about the ACA and Medicare

Warren has put out a plan and how to fund it, and you call it false. Care to explain why it's false or are you just taking fact-challened shots here at Warren and her supporters?

What does not get people excited is huge corporations making money off healthcare (or those companies giving big dollars to Biden's Super PAC).

[Thekaspervote]

18. The ACA was passed when all 3 branches of govt were democratically held. LBJ had the same

[Bradshaw3]

20. And we could have all three in control in 2021

But you are probably going to say Dems won't win and the RW talking point that it can't be funded, which was the point. The latter is of course the RW talking point used against those programs. Hence why I brought it up.

[OKNancy]

22. You can't use Medicare as an example

The Democrats had an overwhelming majority in both houses. Also in 1965 people were still on the Johnson Great Society high after JFKs death.

The ACA didn't cost near as much as M4A, it didn't put people out of jobs, it allowed those who wanted to stay on their previous plans to stay and it was going from zero to something. Right now we already have the ACA which could be expanded in a way that could actually pass.

[Bradshaw3]

26. I can use it as an example because my point was about talking points against it

And you don't know what the makeup of Congress will look like in 2021.

[Voltaire2]

16. Think small do nothing swing for a bunt.

[OKNancy]

19. too much swinging gets you a strike out

a well-managed bunt at the right time can give you a score

[Celerity]

23. The Public Option would be a MASSIVE leap forward

Doubt me?

Watch the hundreds of millions USD spent, the positively gas-lighting propaganda that will be spewed to crush it.

I simply do not think that pro-MFA (who demand it now, with no real path other than a shock doctrine of a 4 or 5 year transition phase) people understand how fucked up the US is, how artificially spun to to the right the playing table is, how brainwashed a hundred plus million citizens are, how UTTERLY DEEP the tentacles of the for profit healthcare system are entrenched in the body politic and the day to day zeitgeist of the American project as a holistic entity.

[Voltaire2]

31. "that will be spewed"

that is correct, currently it is being promoted in order to kill MFA. Once MFA is dead, then the same lobbyists will be attacking a public option plan.

Most of the public option plans compete with shitty expensive private plans. They have to in order to be affordable. They do not even come close to the MFA plans for universal comprehensive public health insurance. They can't because in order to do so they would have to have a tax subsidy or they would be too expensive up front.

Biden's plan keeps deductibles, co-pays, limited dental vision and mental health coverage, leaves out 3% of americans, has the perverse effect of rewarding the states that opted out of medicaid subsidies, and allows premiums to be 8.5% of income.

It is another hodge-podge patchup of a broken system.

[Celerity]

32. I never said Biden's plan was the best approach for the Public Option, and it leaves 10 million

still uninsured.

The bottom line to all this is simple.

1. The votes for MFA are simply not there, and will not not be for many, many, many years (it may take a systemic collapse of the for-profit moel to get there.)

2. MFA is, in 2020, a general election loser, and GREATLY increases the chances of a Rump reelection.

Warren is foolish to hitch her entire little Blue wagon to MFA (and thus, quite possibly, if she wins the nomination, putting us ALL under the cosh.) It is a self-inflicted wound, quite possibly a fatal one, in spun-up, artificially RW-shifted America.

[peggysue2]

28. Most of the social programs are to be funded through the Wealth Tax

The Green New Deal if I remember correctly is to get a downpayment from the same tax.

However, the Wealth Tax is not a silver bullet. It would be enormously difficult to pass and there's even the question whether it would pass constitutional muster. Yes, there are many who say it would. However, there are an equal number who say it would not. Which means years of litigation. Without that funding, you're looking at a $5-7 Trillion cost add-on + the $32 Trillion for National Healthcare + whatever the full price tag for the Green New Deal turns out to be.

It's not that these programs are nuts. They are an aspirational list of where we want/need to go. But the idea you can do all these things at once goes beyond aspirational into fantasyland.

It's a populist's message: big on promises, not so big on what realistically can be delivered.

And it's why Elizabeth Warren is not my candidate of choice. She's been a great Senator but fantasyland isn't where I live and I'm really afraid this economic mumbo-jumbo would cost us the election.

Just doesn't work for me.

[FloridaBlues]

34. Have to agree Peggysue2

[FloridaBlues]

33. She is pinning all her hopes on the wealth tax that will not get passed in congress

Maybe voters want pie on the sky ideas better than having trump in office.
Next several months will be interesting to she how she handles the wealth tax issue.

[mainstreetonce]

17. I agree

I think she is making a problem for herself.

[Thekaspervote]

21. Agree!! She should have long ago distanced herself from Sanders. 32 trillion for MFA to say

Nothing of the other plans she wants. We have to be realistic. Like it or not none of those big ticket items are going anywhere.

The fact that she doesn’t answer about costs and taxes is killing her. I am not a bernie fan, but he is being much more straightforward about taxes and costs

[Midnightwalk]

27. I agree but let's do more arithmetic

First the part I agree with. We’ll all continue to argue but I think of it as risk management.

If the supporters of medicare for all are right, then going for a public option first delays universal coverage unnecessarily. If they are wrong and we lose the general election we lose ACA, 10s of millions lose coverage and people with prexisting conditions.

The lack of a message to the attacks that will come in the general election has convinced me that there isn’t a good one. The new clarification doesn’t do it.

That’s the gamble that supporters of Medicare for all are insisting we take.

On the 2 million jobs I’ll point out that has to happen under any plan but can be done over time There will be pain in any case.

We have to get a trillion dollars out of healthcare costs. That’s 10**12 dollars per year. Say the average burden rate, that is the cost to employ someone including salary and benefits is 100,000 a year. Maybe off by a factor of 2. Thats 10**5.

That’s 10 million if all the trillion in savings comes from job loss. Most of the savings might be profit and dividends but 20% coming from reductions in jobs seems plausible. That gets us into the million job range.

That *has* to happen under any plan to get costs under control.

[LonePirate]

29. Only serious health care plans target the paper pushing waste which drives costs higher.

Unless you cut red tape and administrative costs, you don't have a health care plan that control costs in any meaningful way.

If you don't like the prospect of job losses in the health administration and insurance sectors in order to reduce health care costs, then your desire for affordable health care for everyone is a weak desire at best.

[nini]

30. I agree. the general masses are going to see that 21 trillion and freak out

Whether it makes sense or not.. they won't look beyond the price tag.

Add the job issues on top of that.. we'll be screwed big time.

[ArcticFox]

37. We're already paying

Out of pocket and through employers for healthcare. And to the extent we don't pay, we pay with our diminished health.

I didn't hear about lost jobs. Assuming they're in the insurance industry? What about all the healthcare workers we'd be hiring to take care of all the new patients? And the jobs created implementing a Green New Deal?

[Gothmog]

39. Elizabeth Warren's latest health plan is causing concerns for some centrist, moderate and rural Demo

I and other true Democrats have been working hard to turn Texas blue. We hope to pick up six congressional seats in addition to the two seats we flipped in 2018. We have a chance to defeat Cornyn in the Senate. The Democrats picked up 12 seats in the Texas House and need 9 more to take control of the Texas House prior to the next redistricting session. If Biden is the nominee, Texas will be a battleground state. If Warren or sanders is the nominee. Texas will not be a battle ground state and we can forget about keeping the two seats that we flipped in 2018

Speaker Pelosi is worried about losing control of the House with a weak top of the ballot ticket with a program that will kill down ballot candidates
.

Link to tweet

The most-vulnerable Democrat in Colorado’s state House, Bri Buentello, is dreading door-knocking in her rural district now that Elizabeth Warren dropped her massive “Medicare for All” plan into the presidential arena.
“This is going to cause down-ballot damage in swing districts and states if she’s the nominee,” Buentello says, describing how her Pueblo-area constituents — who voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump in 2016 — were already echoing criticisms about a giant, one-size-fits-all big government run plan that cancels private health insurance and raises taxes.
Story Continued Below

The fear of blowback is indicative of the broad and largely negative response to Warren’s proposal from centrist, moderate and rural Democrats — many of whom, like Buentello, back Joe Biden in the primary. And it exposes the fault line between those who fret about winning voters in the center and the activist progressive base propelling Warren to the front of the Democratic pack.

The long-awaited plan to raise the $20.5 trillion she says is needed to pay for single-payer health care in America is Warren’s attempt to answer critics after weeks of questions from rival candidates about the cost of her proposal and the prospect of higher taxes. Warren promised, as she has in the past, that "not one penny in middle-class tax increases” is necessary to finance the effort.

[Gothmog]

40. The loss of 2 million jobs is a big deal

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

41. From Harry Reid

Link to tweet