Why vote for Sanders when you can have Elizabeth Warren instead?

[Soph0571]

In the 2016 primary, Democratic voters were presented with a choice: Sanders, who represented the potential of redistributive policy, and Clinton, who represented the possibility of shattering, as she put it, the last, highest glass ceiling. She dismissed his ideas as impractical; his supporters attacked her with a virulent misogyny that belied their nominal commitments to equality. For leftist women, to express enthusiasm for Sanders’ policy proposals was seen as condoning the sexist attacks on Clinton. To defend Clinton from sexism meant that we would be accused of condoning the worst choices of her history. This choice, between Sanders and Clinton, redistribution and representation, has been the central conflict of American progressive politics in the years since. You can have either redistribution or representation, the thinking goes, but not both.
-----------
Why would Democratic voters choose Sanders when Warren is running? The two are not ideologically identical, but the differences between their major policy stances, on regulation of financial services and the need to extend the welfare state, are relatively minor, especially compared to the rest of the field. Warren calls herself a capitalist, the Sanders partisans point out, while Sanders is unafraid of the label “socialist”. That’s one thing. But this point has the quality of a post-hoc rationalization. It is cited by those seeking a politically acceptable reason to vote for a man and not for a woman – those who would vote for this man, and perhaps not any woman, no matter what.
----------
But Warren’s primary virtue over Sanders is that she seems to understand the inextricable binds between racial and gender discrimination and the economic injustice that both candidates abhor. She has made statements about the reality of racial discrimination, how it compounds with economic injustice to keep people of color from entering and staying in the middle class.

Sanders, meanwhile, speaks about the struggles of the working class in reductionist and retro ways; he seems to hold an anachronistic understanding of the American worker as white and male, oppressed only by his bosses and not at the same time by the structures of racism and sexism.

[link:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/20/sanders-elizabeth-warren-feminism-identity|

This is my number one frustration with old white male socialists - they have no understanding of and do not wish to understand that identity politics has a place if progressive agendas' are ever going to be successful. They come from a position of white male privilege, and however much they want to see change they will always see change through that prism. It is what it is. But in 2019 there are other, better choices.

[NurseJackie]

1. I'm going to print that and frame it!

This is my number one frustration with old white male socialists - they have no understanding of and do not wish to understand that identity politics has a place if progressive agendas' are ever going to be successful. They come from a position of white male privilege, and however much they want to see change they will always see change through that prism. It is what it is. But in 2019 there are other, better choices.

I'm going to print that and frame it!

[Cha]

46. ..

[Ohiogal]

2. This.

"Misogyny from the left feels even darker and more viscerally offensive than misogyny from the right. From conservatives, we expect it. From leftists, it is a betrayal."

And I do think Hillary Clinton was a victim of leftist misogyny, to some extent. I just hope Elizabeth Warren does not fall victim to the same.

[FoxNewsSucks]

3. I'd be equally happy with Warren,

or almost any of the currently running Democrats.

No more corporatist, "third-way", "conservadem", bank-and-industry-money-establishment type Democrats. We need a genuine liberal, and there are more than one running.

My reason for giving a slight favor to Sanders is that he's been sincere and consistent in his positions for decades and has the experience of his years moving up through politics. He knows how things work in DC.

For an example of what I mean, look at the House and Pelosi. At first, I was in agreement with the "What?? Her again? We want and elected NEW people!!" sentiment. I soon realized I was wrong, because Pelosi has kicked MF45's ass. She's done the right thing by being Speaker with her experience, and putting the newbies into positions where they can act and more importantly, learn how things work in order to be able to politically kick ass like her.

I also think that hurt Obama, because his relative newness led to mistakes like putting corporate insiders in his cabinet. Being more experienced at "how things work" enabled them to get corporate-friendly things done, instead of the good liberal policy we need.

So I'd like to see the most experienced person at the top of the ticket, and everyone else lining up to get the job done, learn, and move up. I hope our democracy is still around in 15-20 years so I can vote FOR someone like AOC.

[mountain grammy]

6. Good post..

I’ve taken back every negative thing I ever said about Pelosi and agree with you. I’m officially undecided, but Warren and Sanders top my list at this point. That said, I don’t like this OP.

[Cha]

48. No it wasn't and I love the OP.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

24. Slandering Democrats sucks!

Give it a rest.

[FoxNewsSucks]

26. could you please point out the slander?

[CrossingTheRubicon]

30. Calling Democrats corporatists, "third-way", "conservadems",

"bank-and-industry-money-establishment types" is very ugly, divisive, and slanderous.

Why are you here?

[BannonsLiver]

31. They've got all the "buzz words" down don't they?

Sure makes one wonder.

[emulatorloo]

35. That playbook may have worked on DU in 2016, won't work this time though

[Cha]

49. yeah, blah "corportists" blah "3rd way" blah

[NastyRiffraff]

82. Over and over and over again

We hear the same old crap...corporatism, oligarchy, and of course the favorite: establishment. Blah, blah, blah.

EVERY politician who has been in Congress for years is by definition "establishment." They may have different views, but they all are experienced politicians, with all that implies. Bernie is no exception; neither is Elizabeth. I MUCH prefer Elizabeth, who actually has done some policy work.

I also remember when the very people who are now trying to push Bernie down everyone's throats were clamoring for Elizabeth to run. Good times...

All that said, I still haven't made up my mind for the primaries, except who I won't vote for.

[Cha]

47. "corporatist, "third-way""conservadem", bank-and-industry-money-establishment"Blah Blah Blah..

Stale tired buzzwords that mean nothing.

Our Democratic Party had A Democratic Victory in the House with Dems from all over the country.. all different kinds of Dems. That's how we're able to fight back against the Fascism that has taken over our Gov.

[lapucelle]

51. "No more corporatist, third-way, conservadem, bank-and-industry-money-establishment type Democrat."

What are you talking about?

We had this candidate as our Democratic nominee in 2016:

Hillary Clinton is a Hard-Core Liberal.

And if we nominate E Warren in 2020, we'll have this candidate::

Elizabeth Warren is a Hard-Core Liberal.

http://www.ontheissues.org/hillary_clinton.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/elizabeth_warren.htm

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

52. I would too... but, why not have both!!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!

[USALiberal]

4. I supported Bernie, voted for Hillary. But want to move on from both of them at this point. nt

[Cha]

50. No problem.. Hillary's not running.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

54. Well Hillary has made that choice for us... she's not running again.

Like Hillary, who ran a second time for president in 2016, its Bernie's now turn to run again. He absolutely deserves that shot given his incredible showing, coming from 60 points behind against the most powerful Democratic political machine in our lifetime. Bernie will do even better this time around, of that I have no doubt.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!

[Amimnoch]

60. Nope. Never.

Any actual Democrat that’s running. Not one that just wears the tag when it’s politically expedient.

Ones that show their taxes.

Ones that don’t run as spoilers.

Ones that aren’t every bit as in bed with the Russians as Trump and Stein.

NEVER BS.

[rurallib]

5. That is the very question I was mulling over this morning

and I came down on the side of Warren.

[CentralMass]

7. I like Elizabeth Warren and have voted for her. However I find that the the comments you made about

Senator Sanders are demonstrably false and part of the poltical hack job of the last election.

I was a lifelong MA resident until 2015 and voted for Elizabeth Warren in 2012. I even have a photo of my oldest daughter standing next to the Senator in her Senate office in DC. I have a lot of respect for the her and she is high on my list.

I could a make long llink ridden case here to dispute your characterization of Senator Sanders but instead i will say that i adamantly disagree with it.

I like them both and would be happy to vote for either one of them, or for both of them on the same ticket .

[Renew Deal]

8. The good thing about Sanders running is that two unelectable candidates will split the vote

Allowing someone else to win

[m-lekktor]

9. yeah some "centrist" who will continue to block a good healthcare program most likely. nt

[MrsCoffee]

10. Which candidate running would that be?

[emulatorloo]

12. Donald Trump

Our candidates are all solidly behind universal healthcare. And they also have the chops to create detailed policy proposals on how to get there. (Except maybe Bernie, who is good at slogans but not good at all at concrete policy.

[MrsCoffee]

13. Exactly.

[Lazy Daisy]

15. Amy Klobuchar

She wants to "fix" the ACA, but not take it as far as universal healthcare. As the campaigns get farther into season, I'm sure others will follow. Being pragmatic and all that.

[MrsCoffee]

17. She wants to start there.

She has stated she thinks Medicare for All is doable in the future. I cannot imagine she would “block” any such bill were it to cross her desk.

[Lazy Daisy]

19. she has stated her intentions

and they aren't for universal healthcare. Do you think a bill would even get to her desk? No, they will follow the leader. If a Democratic President says "lets reinforce the ACA" that's what they'll do

[Trenzalore]

45. The President isn't going to be blocking any good healthcare program

It will be the congress critters just like last time when he public option died a slow death.

75% of the candidates running will support the best legislation that can make it out of the House and Senate.

None of the candidates are running for king.

[Cha]

67. Nah.. you got that Wrong.. yeah, which "centrist"

would that be?

[BannonsLiver]

34. +1

This is what I’m hoping for as well.

[emulatorloo]

11. Since Warren is in the race, Bernie seems redundant to me

Sanders supporter in 2016, in my humble opinion Warren is more accomplished and is excellent at writing concrete policy proposals. Bernie does really offer either of those things.

[MrsCoffee]

14. He said he wasn't going to run if he didn't have to.

I guess he doesn’t think a woman can win. That’s the only reason I see left.

[emulatorloo]

16. Yes I remember him saying that.

He says a lot of stuff.

[Garrett78]

21. New Hampshire is a crucial state for both, and they'll hurt one another's chances of winning there.

I don't think either will be the nominee, though Warren has better odds than Sanders.

[totodeinhere]

25. Bernie has a long career of accomplishments.

I'm not taking anything away from Warren, but Bernie has been there for us for so long. He has to be my first choice at this point although of course I would vote for Warren if she gets the nomination.

[emulatorloo]

28. For one thing, her work on the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has helped a lot of people

Bernie has renamed a couple of post-offices, it isn’t comparable.

Don’t get me wrong I like Bernie, he is a wonderful Senator for Vermont. As I say I supported him in Primary 2016. I just think there are better choices and stronger candidates this time.

Of course if he gets the nomination i’ll enthusiastically GOTV for him.

[BannonsLiver]

36. What are Bernie's legislative accomplishments?

And I’m not talking about bills he co-sponsored.

[totodeinhere]

57. I did not say "legislative" accomplishments.

There is a lot more than introducing laws that pass. In the gridlocked political environment of today, it's hard for anyone, Bernie or anyone else, to get anything progressive passed into law. If we are going to use that criterion for judging candidates then few from the current crop come out that well.

Look at President Obama for instance. He was a great president who would be in office today if he could have run for a third term but what legislative accomplishments could he point to as a presidential candidate in 2008? His greatest accomplishment was the Affordable Care Act but that happened after he was elected. Elect Bernie and then see what he can do.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

55. Bernie is clearly the most accomplished of all the candidates running. Only Biden would worry me...

that is, IF he jumps in the race. It doesn't look that way, since Joe has had 3 years to think about it and, by having not yet announced, he surely must be having his doubts... so, even if he does decide to run, I wonder whether his heart will be in it, which is a huge factor in the outcome of an election.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!

[totodeinhere]

56. Joe is polling well but it's probably a lot to do with name recognition. n/t

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

58. Yes, check out the New Hampshire polls... Bernie has broken out into the lead over Biden.

No surprise really... Bernie had prolly the best rollout of a political campaign as I've ever seen, following up on his stellar performance in 2016. The only thing surprising are the claims by some here that Bernie is not a credible candidate and demands that he withdraw from the race - before it's even started!! - cuz he sposedly has no path to victory.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!
The revolution has started!!

[Cha]

68. Elizabeth leads the way on Tax Returns..

Link to tweet

[Lazy Daisy]

18. Because she doesn't go far enough

And the implications that the only reason one would support Bernie over Elizabeth is misogyny is insulting. Continuing the trash of the last primary. I wonder, do those who support Joe Biden do so for the same reason? Because of misogyny? And why is it people think if you support Bernie you would naturally support Elizabeth? Frankly if it wasn't for Bernie running I'd be supporting Kamala.

[emulatorloo]

29. What specific policy issues does she not go far enough?

Thanks in advance, I supported Sanders in 2016 and do like him. I don’t see a huge difference between them policy wise so I look forward to your reply.

[Lazy Daisy]

43. Don't get me wrong I think she's great but

She is another candidate that doesn't go full in for universal healthcare. She's more in line with "fixing" Obamacare.
She is another candidate that doesn't go full in for free public colleges. She's more in line with "debt-free"

To some they may seem to have the same policy, and on some points they do. But how they get there is very different.

We have to bear in mind that she started out as a Republican. It was only about 20 years ago that she changed over to the Democratic Party. She's going to have a base thought from the old Republican view (before they got completely insane)

[emulatorloo]

59. Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it

Definitely serious things to consider.

The Republicans thing doesn’t bother me, she seems to have made a very genuine conversion.

Thanks again

[kcr]

41. Posts like this are exhibit A n/t

[Lazy Daisy]

44. to what?

[forklift]

71. I agree.

We should shoot for the moon. Bernie says he will deliver and as impossible as it may seem, he surely must have a plan. He is a seasoned senator with decades of experience.

He also seems genuinely authentic and doesn't sound like a politician.

[WordsMatter]

20. Identity politics... and who is the 'old white male socialists'?

If you are referring to Senator Sanders - he is a self described Democratic Socialist. Words matter.

I can't answer for Sanders or any other progressive but I do know that progressive policies will help every single person in America independent of race, religion, sexually preference, etc...

It would have been a hard choice between Sanders and Warren in 2016 but Senator Warren did not run for president. So now with both running - it will be a hard choice.

[emulatorloo]

32. "Identify Politics" is a right-wing term for Civil Rights

We all agree at DU that progressive policy will lift everyone up, but Civil Rights shouldn’t be dismissed or trivialized with repurposed reactionary phrases.

Of course YMMV

[WordsMatter]

37. I didn't know Identity politics was a right-wing term - thanks.

Of course Civil Rights should not/must not ever be dismissed or trivialized.

Maybe for those candidates who don't bring Civil Rights into conversation regularly, better start doing a better job!

[emulatorloo]

38. ...

Great suggestions, they all need to talk about equality! Will be something to watch for in the debates especially

I don’t think i’ll be able to choose a primary candidate until I get to hear them debate. It should be a great conversation!

[WordsMatter]

39. Back at you!

And now I think I too will wait until the debates before declaring on this site. At least I will try to wait...!

[LAS14]

22. If you want to get a gut punch sense for what...

.... misogyny is all about, imagine talking heads discussing Sanders' "likeability." He can be as unlikeable as he likes and it's not a problem. Warren??? Not so much.

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE Warren a LOT. But history tells me that's a curse on a candidate.... me liking them.

[aeromanKC]

23. Or Brown

Or Harris, or Beto, or Castro or Buttegeig, The Left lane is over crowded with awesome candidates.

[Garrett78]

27. Perception is key.

Sanders and Warren appeal to the same constituency, partly because of where they place emphasis and partly because both are New Englanders. I think Brown appeals to the same constituency, as well, for the most part.

Many Sanders supporters like Warren but dislike Harris, even though Harris and Warren have the same voting record.

And there are Sanders supporters who like Biden but hate Clinton, which makes no sense from a policy perspective. Sexism and Biden being a New Englander are a couple of possible explanations.

[BannonsLiver]

33. Warren's candidacy is important

she can perform a valuable service by cutting into Bernie’s voting bloc thus making it harder for him to win. That in ofitself is an important and valuable role to play even if she is not the nominee. And oh yeah, she’s a damn good candidate in her own right who would make an excellent president. So there’s that as well to consider.

[Cha]

73. How Elizabeth Warren Is Distancing Herself From Bernie Sanders

Link to tweet

And, Yes.. an invaluable service!

[Garrett78]

74. At the same time, Sanders may prevent Warren from being able to advance.

As Cha's article points out, Warren is (purposely or not) distancing herself from Sanders, but they pretty clearly appeal to much the same constituency. That presents a problem for both of them in what is a pivotal state for both New Englanders (with the possibility that a 3rd very prominent New Englander may enter the race).

I hesitate, though, to call New Hampshire a pivotal state for Sanders, as I think he's done for after New Hampshire regardless. But how he does in IA and NH will certainly have an impact on how others do in those states.

[jcgoldie]

40. I picked undecided

..because I really like Harris and am intrigued by Beto, but if I had to go fill in the oval today it would be Liz!

[Awsi Dooger]

42. Bernie would have much greater chance in November, IMO

No other variable applies, when comparing those two.

I post on sports message boards dominated by white males. Elizabeth Warren is mocked all the time, and it decreased only when Ocasio-Cortez came onto the scene. Bernie Sanders is respected on those forums, even if they disagree with his policies. Sanders has rare degree of likability and teflon.

I prioritize margin for error against Trump. IMO, Elizabeth Warren is near the bottom of that category. I really like her, but I also really liked Andrew Gillum. I didn't vote for Gillum in the Florida primary because I understood that Gwen Graham was more electable. The native American stuff and the unfortunate nickname are something we should not ignore regarding Warren. We tried to ignore the Tallahassee FBI stuff with Gillum.

[LWolf]

53. Because

I prefer Sanders to Warren! To answer your question.

I like Warren. I like Sanders more. Why not vote for the best? That's always my choice.

[Amimnoch]

61. Not my first choice, but I'd support Senator Warren!

Never BS. Never.. never.. NEVER.

[m-lekktor]

63. Because Warren isn't a democratic socialist. nt

Warren is an "accountable capitalist" whatever that is.

[Adrahil]

64. Because only Bernie can save us!

Just ask him!

[rgbecker]

65. Can Warren get people to the polls? Can she stimulate some interest?

I've heard her speak and found no room in the hall when I went to hear her. She's my Senator and I think she's great. But as of now, Bernie Sanders is the king of bringing otherwise uninterested people on board and getting them to show their support with $27 donations. If someone else can do it, great. Harris, Warren both great progressives.

[Gothmog]

66. Where are sanders tax returns?

Senator Warren has released her tax returns

Link to tweet

[Cha]

69. Yes, Elizabeth has been leading the way

on Tax Returns!

Link to tweet

[Scurrilous]

70. ...

[Cha]

72. How Elizabeth Warren Is Distancing Herself From Bernie Sanders

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

75. Senator Warren is a brilliant attorney and a great senator

Her proposal on breaking up tech is interesting

[getagrip_already]

76. At least we won't have to wonder what's

in warrens tax returns. Whats the latest bs excuse?

[earthshine]

77. It's a tough choice between Bernie and Liz. I'm glad I don't have to decide yet.

Let them both keep speaking. That's what's most important to me right now.

The more they speak, the better the Dem party will be.

[WeekiWater]

78. EW is educated on that which she speaks.

She knows the difference between capitalism and socialism. In fairness, Sanders does to an extent. He mainly uses the terms to cater to LIV’s while EW generates progressive policy.

[sfwriter]

79. I was a sanders guy last time...

...because Warren didn't run.

[Carrito]

80. I like both

They have similar platforms.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

81. I prefer people who weren't republicans as adults during Reagan and Bush 1