Mc Mike
Mc Mike's JournalYour post # 460, last Jan 22 (in your o.p. of Jan 15), had info on an alternate route.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2242472I mistakenly thought the road was 'Commerce' or 'Commercial', it was 'Industrial'. Deputy Chief Lumpkin (who was Army Intel Reserve, and in the motorcade's pilot car), said in your link that Industrial was not a good route, because it was run down and winos hung around there.
Lumpkin's name came up twice in Russ Baker's Family of Secrets , once in connection with the motorcade and its route (On the re-routing, Baker said on p. 110 that "Officially, the decision to reroute the motorcade from Main Street to Elm, in front of the Book Depository Building, was made only a week before the event--by two Secret Service agents", but Baker didn't name the official source or the agents who changed the route). Lumpkin is first mentioned on p. 115: "on the day of the assassination, Deputy Police Chief George L. Lumpkin was driving the pilot car of Kennedy's motorcade...Lumpkin was a friend of Jack Crichton, Poppy bush's GOP colleague" (Crichton was running for statewide office alongside Poppy bush, Crichton for Gov, Poppy for Senate)..."Like Crichton, moreover, {Lumpkin} was a member of an Army Intelligence Reserve unit. (Lumpkin would later tell the HSCA that he had been consulted by the Secret Service on motorcade security, and his input had eliminated an alternate route.)" Baker didn't mention that the route was via Industrial, unlike your HSCA link. "In the car with Lumpkin was another Army officer, Lt. Col. George Whitmeyer, commander of all Army Reserve units in East Texas, who happened to be Jack Crichton's boss in the Reserve. Although Whitmeyer was not on the police list of those approved to ride in the pilot car, he had insisted that he be in the vehicle and remained there until the shooting. The only recorded stop made by the pilot car was directly in front of the Depository building. Lumpkin stopped briefly there and spoke to a policeman handling traffic at the corner of Houston and Elm."
A bonus mention of Army Reserve unit involvement comes from Russ on page 188. He pointed out that the Bottlers' convention, which was scheduled at the same time as Kennedy's visit to Dallas, held a rodeo to entertain 200 orphans, and the Army Reserves volunteered to provide trucks and drivers to transport the kids to and from the arena at Fair Park (close to the site of the Crichton-led Dallas Civil Defense group's underground emergency bunker and communications facility. Crichton, like Ferrie and Oswald, was big on Civil Defense.) Baker pointed out that the bottlers' convention brought Nixon to Dallas, brought 8,000 strangers to Dallas, sent army vehicles into action on city streets the night before the assassination, and by taking the biggest Dallas venue, helped determine Kennedy's venue and the motorcade route.
The other mention of Lumpkin in Baker's book is on page 119. Within hours of Kennedy's death and Oswald's arrest, a right wing repug party activist and precinct chairman, white Russian emigre Ilya Mamantov, stepped in and functioned as an interpreter between Marina Oswald and investigators, embellishing her comments to establish in no uncertain terms that 'leftist' Lee Oswald was the gunman-the lone gunman-who killed the President. "It is interesting of course that the Dallas police would let an outsider--in particular, a right-wing Russian emigre--handle the delicate interpreting task. Asked by the Warren Commission how this happened, Mamantov said that he had received a phone call from Deputy Police Chief George Lumpkin. After a moment's thought, Mamantov then remembered that just preceding Lumpkin's call he had heard from Jack Crichton. It was Crichton who had put the Dallas Police Dept. together with Mamantov and ensured his place at Marina Oswald's side at this crucial moment. Despite this revelation, Crichton almost completely escaped scrutiny. The Warren Commission never interviewed him."
Harrison Livingstone's The Radical Right and the Murder of John F. Kennedy discussed motorcade planning while talking about a problem with the postmark for the money order Oswald allegedly sent to obtain the murder weapon. It was for 10:30 a.m. on 3/12/63, but during this time Oswald was working for Jaggers-Chiles at some distance from the post office, he was punched in before the post office opened, and his time sheet accounted for each of the jobs he did that morning. "... the job he was working on the longest that morning was for his employer's client, Sam Bloom, the man who later worked closely with the Secret Service to set up the motorcade and Kennedy's visit to Dallas eight month's later. Sam Bloom was an 'associate' of Jack Ruby who was reputed to be Oswald's friend." (p. 209, Livingstone, source cited Warren Commission vol. 22, p. 516.) Mr. Livingstone's book is poorly indexed, and jumps around topically quite a bit, and he says 'Sam Bloom' instead of Mae Brussell's 'Sol Bloom'. Maybe 'Sam' is an Americanized version of 'Sol'; I've never seen them both written together in any source discussing the P.R. agency who was handling the publicity and political side of the motorcade planning, as opposed to the security side.
James Hepburn's Farewell America said on p. 352 that Secret Service advance man Winston Lawson and Dallas S.S. head Sorrels drove the motorcade route with Chief Curry on Monday, Nov. 18. "After they had driven through the center of the city and reached Dealey Plaza, Curry pointed down Main Street past the railroad overpass and said, 'and afterwards there's only the freeway.' But instead of turning right into Houston Street in the direction of Elm Street, as the motorcade did on November 22, Curry turned left in front of the Old Court-house, and neither Lawson nor Sorrels followed the parade route past that point...This type of double turn is contrary to Secret Service regulations, which specifiy that when a Presidential motorcade has to slow down to make a turn, 'the entire intersection must be examined in advance, searched and inspected from top to bottom'. Curry, however, brought the reconnaissance to an end at the very point where it became unacceptable (as well as unusual) from the point of view of security."
When Curry pointed down Main and said, "and afterwards there's only the freeway", that might have been the route Senator Yarborough remembered taking in previous motorcades, Curry's implied route seems to match the 'Main St. to Stemmons Freeway' route description. Why Sorrels, who was the head of Dallas S.S., would need a guide or be unfamiliar with Dealey Plaza and the Freeway ramps, is beyond my ability to explain reasonably. But given his frenetic activity post-assassination to deal exclusively with Zapruder's footage, maybe some 'Occam's Razor' advocate could offer the simplest explanation of Sorrels' activities, abilities, and motivations. To me, it seems like Hepburn's source for the 'dry run' events and conversation was either Lawson or a written report from Lawson.
Thanks for the link to the N. R. article, and the Agents Go On Record link, Octa. There had to have been a lot of good Secret Service agents on the job, or Kennedy wouldn't have lived as long as he did. But none of those agents were in command on 11/22, instead Pat Kirkwood's drinking buddies were in charge. The New Republic article from Dec. of '63 is excellent, it does a good job of compiling the constantly altering details of the emerging 'official story'. I like those early sources, watching the authorities trying to explain things that are known and undeniable, then their explanation trips them up, then they have to re-explain. I really like lines about the '30 Cal Enfield/7.65 mm Mauser/.25 cal Army or Japanese rifle they found on the 2nd, 5th, and 6th floor and in the stairwells, which changed into the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano that Italian rifle-makers 'customarily' leave their name off of, to prevent their products from being immediately identifiable. Even better that Oswald was across town at work when he purchased the money order at the post office in another part of town to pay for this remarkable weapon. I'm pretty sure he would have faced some kind of wire fraud charges for a transaction like that, had he lived.
There's a good analysis of the Parrott memo in Russ Baker's book 'Family of Secrets'
It runs on pp 45 through 66 (paperback version). I'm not saying you must read my source, though. To sum it up: Poppy bush was in Dallas campaigning against Kennedy and the Democrats on 11-21 and 11-22 morning. He was in Tyler, Texas (he alleges) prepared to give a repug campaign speech, and heard that wires from Dallas confirmed that the President had been assassinated (1:38 pm Central). He didn’t give the political speech. Instead, a few minutes later, he called the FBI to 'finger' Parrott (1:45 pm Central) -- 'There's this guy who volunteers for the organization I'm leading, and he's been talking about killing Kennedy. Gee whiz, I hope he didn’t do anything rash against the guy I’ve been railing against in my Senate run. By the way, I’m not in Dallas, I used my oil buddy’s private jet to go to Tyler, and I’ll use it to go back to Dallas, now'. Fortunately for James Parrott, at the exact same time of the call, Poppy's right hand man in the Harris County repug Party, Kearney Reynolds, was visiting Parrott on behalf of bush to coordinate repug campaign activities with him, and so could provide an alibi to the FBI for Parrott. So what was the point?
There are several points, actually. First, as author Russ Baker points out, bush phoned a FBI agent named Graham Kitchel with the tip. Graham's brother George, an offshore oil engineer, was good friends with Poppy, long-time friends according to an interview George K. himself gave. This ensured his useless tip, among hundreds of calls fielded on what may have been the most hectic day in the FBI’s history, would get action and documentation, unlike a lot of other ‘tips’ that weren’t worthy of documentation. It wasted the Feds’ time and resources, but that waste wasn’t caused in furtherance of a plot against JFK. What the documentation of bush’s ‘tip’ ‘from Tyler’ did, was ‘establish’ the ‘fact’ that bush wasn’t in Dallas, though he was in Dallas on the morning of the 22nd and (according to bush) ‘flew back and was in Dallas on the afternoon of the 22nd’. The FBI memo functioned as a paper trail that explained bush’s presence in Dallas before and after the assassination (because many people saw him there), and ‘established’ that he wasn’t there during it. The result of the useless tip was that “Parrott became Poppy’s alibi, and Poppy’s assistant became Parrott’s.”(--Baker, p. 61). It’s the Texas two step.
Hoover didn’t like the Kennedys, but had no lost love for bush’s bircher crowd, either. He also knew that if they could kill JFK, they could kill Hoover. His reaction to the bush ‘tip’ was a memo of his own a few days later, saying ‘Mr. George Bush of the CIA , we’ve been watching that crowd of armed extremist Batista Cubans you’ve been training, and we think they’re trying to use the assassination as a pretext to launch a war from our soil against Cuba. We know that’s illegal, and we ARE in the business of law enforcement, after all.’ (Those Cubans are the people who Oswald had documented involvement with, working both in favor of their cause and, as the only documented member of the FPCC in New Orleans, ‘against’ their cause. Carlos Bringuier, Antonio Veciana, Col. Orlando Piedra, Sergio Arcacha Smith – those Cubans.)
Hoover’s memo was also important because Poppy denied being in the CIA until he was appointed to lead it, and denies having been in the CIA from the 50’s – 70’s, to this day. Hoover blew bush’s cover, quite purposefully, and told bush’s crowd that they had reached the end of their chain, in action terms.
The reaction to Hoover’s move was an immediate set of leaks in December to Dallas D.A. Wade and ‘friendly’ (to right wing repugs) Dallas reporters saying that Oswald was an FBI informant. And in January, Texas A. G. Waggoner Carr sent Warren Commission General Counsel Rankin a memo about the allegations. Carr said the allegations came from Dallas D.A. Wade, and Wade was unable or unwilling to specify the source of them. That’s the Texas repugs and CIA man bush’s crowd saying ‘How about we pin the assassination on you, Hoover?’
Interestingly, when D.A. Wade was giving a late night press conference as Nov. 22 ended, he identified Oswald as a member of the ‘Free Cuba Committee’. He was corrected by a strip-club owner named Jack Ruby, who had mixed in with the crowd of reporters, and who said ‘That’s the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.’ (The Crusade to Free Cuba Committee was an anti-Castro pro Batista Cuban expatriate crowd who had offices in the New Orleans building at 544 Camp Street. Oswald distributed flyers stamped with that address for the pro-Castro FPCC, he distributed those flyers on the street outside that building, and used that building as a base for his ‘work on behalf of’ Castro.)
I remember discussing Wade’s actions with Zap, the DU WC advocate last year. Why would a DA in a high profile international press conference take public correction from a mob flunky, instead of having the cops remove the guy from the room? How did a mob flunky strip club owner come to have such in depth knowledge about obscure pro and anti Castro groups, to make sure that the anti-Castro group didn’t get blamed, but the pro-Castro group did get blamed? Those two lines from the press conference showed that Wade knew Ruby, and Ruby knew Oswald, but the response to my question from Zap was a glib ‘Why don’t you ask Wade?’, (who is dead).
And finally, regarding Parrott: Baker’s book talked about an interview conducted with Parrott in ’93. The high interest in the Kennedy assassination in the early ‘90’s had led to Congress unanimously passing the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of ’92, which caused the Parrott memo to be released. This generated interest in Parrott, and he gave an interview in ’93. He noted that he had worked for bush’s re-election campaign in ’92, and “in an article covering the frenzied GOP-convention podium attacks on the Clinton-Gore team over family values, Parrott is described as passing out flyers saying ‘no queers or baby killing’, while wearing a plastic shield over his face, explaining that it was protection against the AIDS virus.” (-- Baker, p. 63, sourced to Minneapolis Star-Tribune reporter Steve Berg, 8-19-92.) Parrott was a teabagger 17 years before the movement existed. He suffered no harm from bush’s ‘tip’. If he did, bush wouldn’t have cared, because Parrott is deranged teabag cannon fodder. But he didn’t.
Parrott’s party activism illustrates a point: for those of us who find the ‘official story’ yarn spun by the Warren Commission to be composed of a thousand loose threads, we’re not just re-hashing academic historical facts about the murder of JFK. We believe that the people who committed the crime benefitted from it, and they and their heirs are still around hurting the country. Exposing them will help prevent them from hurting the country more.
Your thread last year on the assassination helped me
I lost a good friend on Thanksgiving 11 22 12, and reading and writing in your thread then helped me feel better. He was a big Kennedy Democrat, and he would have enjoyed the information, though he was never involved in online exchanges.
Thanks for posting this segment. Where would the repugs be without projection and double think?
Using this Bryan Slater seems like an in-your-face propaganda tactic, designed to reduce the impact of Dem and Women's charges that the repugs are forcing creepy, evil, invasive big government intrusion into women's health care. So if they accuse Dems first, then we wind up saying 'No we're not, you are'. Which sounds like a lame second grade argument on the playground. They're trying to steal the force of massive outrage against their Koch bircher nazi ALEC model legislation, and use it, projection style, for a second nazi Koch initiative, destroying the Affordable Care Act. Muddy the waters on the issue of who are the creepy big government officials getting their hands on our health care.
My hat's not really off to the Koch brothers and repugs for their genius on these tactics. They just have way too much money, time, and freedom to do these things, and a bad primary school kid shows the same level of tactical thinking.
The second post-er on this OP has a good point, too. Uncle Sam's 'creepy' now, for this ad, and it's acceptable to say that, as long as it's the repuglinazis saying so. In reality, 'Uncle Sam' is creepy when the Kochs' teabaggers are at rallies dressing up like Uncle Sam, but the repugs would scream accusations of 'unpatriotism' if detractors pointed that out in the media.
Right. 'Precious human life' for month zero through 9,
turns into 'starve the little welfare fraud to death' the second after it is an actual born human being.
They downgraded the gov's credit rating,
which caused market uncertainty that threw the stock market for a loop,
which caused investors to take refuge from the financial storm
by buying government bonds,
which they had just adjudged less reliable.
Ponzi, con game, pyramid scheme. That's the stock system.
+1, thanks for posting, DV.
A tangential piece of trivia that I'd like to point out: at the end of December of '08, I did 2 searches on yahoo, one phrase 'impeach bush' and the other 'impeach obama'. After 8 years of doing all wrong and no right (even by accident) there were 17.5 million hits for impeach bush. But at -.25 years in office, as just the president elect, 'impeach obama' yielded 35 million results.
Their people truly deserve impeachment, and our side forbears. The repugs running congress did nothing to hold the crooked malfeasant bush administration to account. Our administrations deserve to have the repugs shut up and get the hell out of the way, so we can fix the mess the repugs created, so naturally the repugs discover their sense of outrage and need for checks-and-balances oversight. They didn't think bush should answer for anything, when he clearly belongs in jail, but now they're trying to figure out some reason to use that nifty impeachment tool.
Treasonously sore losers, they are.
All your posts in this thread are right on, JDP.
Interesting how the gov demands rights for themselves that they strip from us.
For national security purposes, they must know everything about us. For national security purposes, we can't know anything about their actions.
Brad Blog amplified a Chris Hayes piece June 28 that highlighted a second "national security vs. whistleblower" contradiction, that showed another double think double standard:
"Hayes cites Starr's reporting in order to point out the hypocrisy in how some leaks, those seemingly meant to make the Pentagon look good, are, apparently, perfectly fine in the eyes of many of the very same people who have otherwise criticized --- and even called for the arrest of --- both Snowden and Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald, who had the temerity to report on Snowden's leaks."
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=10103
I never saw if anyone put this on DU at the time, but it didn't make a big splash, if it was posted. (And I haven't lost track of the fact that we're talking about Manning and Wikileaks, not Snowden and Greenwald. Not trying to conflate the 2 issues, either.) Chris Hayes 5.5 min video is included in the bb link, good ideas worth viewing. The 8 para sum up of Hayes' idea is a quick read, anyway.
And a final 'national security' double think that is troubling is that so much of this information is already known. Whether it is the mechanics of the REAL 9-11 attacks on us by our enemies, or our attacks on our enemies in the world wide theater of war, or the collateral damage our attacks induce causing us to LABEL non-combatant innocent victims as 'enemies', or our treatment of the UN and Spanish and Italian governments as 'non-friendlies' -- in every case, the other parties already know what they did and what we did, the only people who have to be kept in the dark about the facts are the hundreds of millions of American citizens who don't have national security clearances to know classified info. So, who is being treated like an 'enemy of the state' here is obvious.
Thanks for trying to help.
Every issue in this back and forth between us is just another loose thread in the unravelled 'official story', to me. Clear that our opinions differ.
I'm not going to adopt your method of reply, (point by point cut and paste with response), because it will swamp the thread further with repetition and make it more difficult to load for other post-ers (I can't be the only one who gets werfault i.e. crashes from the attempt to load 'view all' on this monster of a thread.) I gave you seven loose threads in the official narrative, you responded with 9 paras, breaking the Hunt bircher issue in to 3 pieces. Point by point:
Ferrie's library card: your mcadams link says the issue comes from 2 different unreliable witnesses, Oswald's land-lady, and Bannister's private investigator Jack Martin (via a daisy chain of witnesses that include Ferrie's roommate and G. Wray Gill). Anyone who says anything that isn't the 'official story' is an unreliable witness to adherents of the WC such as yourself. But when they're manifestly unreliable and butress the official story, you can over-look their 'quirks', or just use the statements that jine with the W.C., and ignore the ones that contradict it. Your 'proof' link says that Ferrie did visit the land lady about his library card. Senseless for him to do this, if he hadn't lent it to Oswald. Your link is inadequate in explaining Ferrie's visit.
Oswald carried the card for the same reason the Watergate burglars carried no i.d. and had even their suit labels removed, but had address books with E. Howard Hunt's White House phone number in them. For the same reason the private contractors on the Contra re-supply network carried no i.d., but copious amounts of paperwork about their 'off-the-shelf' mission. The reason is they're doing things that have their ass hanging way out on the limb in legality terms, and they want some kind of paperwork anchor on them in case they fall. Oswald said to Ferrie 'O.K., I'll do what you tell me (interact with far-right gun runners and take a high-profile 'lefty' position). By the way, could you do me a favor and lend me your library card. I haven't been able to get one, I've been moving around too much, and I enjoy reading.' A simple request that Ferrie didn't refuse, which exposed him to problems later.
Ferrie and Jack Martin were both members of a far right fringe schismatic sect called both the 'Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church' and the 'Old Roman Catholic Church'. The family of Arthur Bremer, the lone nut who helped put Nixon into office in '72, also belong to that sect. His sister, Gail Aiken, was also closely involved with preacher Oliver Owen, who injected himself into the Sirhan Sirhan case. And you do know who G. Wray Gill is, right, Zappa? Interesting that he's called G. Wray Gill in your link and in James Earl Ray's book 'Tennessee Waltz', but is called C. Wray Gill in Hinckle and Turner's 'Deadly Secrets'/'The Fish is Red' (missing from the book's index, to boot), while his name on the 544 Camp St. building directory (where Bannister-Martin-Ferrie-Oswald 'worked') is written as 'W. Ray Gill', in Stone's movie 'JFK'. I'll save you time explaining it all for me, by just typing 'w o o' in here, myself.
Paine's station wagon: your jfk online link 'proving' your point that the witnesses are crackpots identifies Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig as a 'crackpot' eyewitness. Captain Will Fritz questioned Oswald about the station wagon, based on Craig's eyewitness report. Later, Fritz denied having any interaction with Craig about Craig's eyewitness testimony. Unfortunately for Fritz, Chief Jesse Curry's book 'JFK Assassination File' published a photo (taken by the Dallas Times Herald) that showed Craig in Fritz's office during interrogation of Oswald. Your link says that Paine owned a Chevy, not a Nash Rambler. But Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers went to the Paine's house and confirmed they had a Nash Rambler. Everyone's a crackpot but Paine and Fritz, including the other 3 cops mentioned and the Times Herald, right? This sloppy lack of follow up on the Paines, and Oswald's route on 11/22 away from the job they got him at the TSBD, tends to put the lie to your 'following every lead' explanation, and once again, you find credible only those who say what you want to hear. More loose threads in the official story for me, more 'woo' for you.
Ruby's mob ties: your link dismissing Ruby's prolifically documented connections to organized crime contains this excerpt--
"Ruby was also very specific about precisely who was most actively pushing the theory of his involvement in a conspiracy:
[T]here is a certain organization in this area that has been indoctrinated that I am the one that was in the plot to assassinate our President. . . . The John Birch Society.(19)
Ruby was correct; the John Birch Society was indeed spreading propaganda implicating Ruby as part of a Jewish conspiracy. In fact, Ruby correctly named resigned US Army Major General Edwin Walker as one of the society's leaders in Dallas,(20) and it is quite telling that when Walker appeared before the Warren Commission, he insisted upon referring to Ruby by his birth name, Rubenstein.(21)
Ruby continued:
If certain people have the means and want to gain something by propagandizing something to their own use, they will make ways to present certain things that I do look guilty." (22) . . . If you don't take me back to Washington tonight to give me a chance to prove to the President that I am not guilty, then you will see the most tragic thing that will ever happen. And . . . I won't be around to be able to prove my innocence or guilt.(23). . . I am used as a scapegoat, and there is no greater weapon that you can use to create some falsehood about some of the Jewish faith, especially at the terrible heinous crime such as the killing of President Kennedy. . . . Now maybe something can be saved. It may not be too late, whatever happens, if our President, Lyndon Johnson, knew the truth from me. But if I am eliminated, there won't be any way of knowing. Right now, when I leave your presence now, I am the only one that can bring out the truth to our President, who believes in righteousness and justice. But he has been told, I am certain, that I was part of a plot to assassinate the President. . . .(24)"
(Excerpt ends)
It's funny that my post (#655) on this thread said the same thing, and caused you to award me the 'top woo of the thread'. But now you can use this link containing the same idea to somehow show me that Sparky Ruby has no mob ties. So you selectively pay attention to the parts you like, and ignore the parts that cast doubt on the 'official story' and its many loose ends. You rely on the statement that Ruby's family and people close to him said he had no organized crime connections. I remind you that Hoover himself wouldn't admit that organized crime even existed, while the mob series 'The Untouchables' was a hit on T.V., while Runyon's 'Guys and Dolls' was a Broadway hit. Mob leader Joe Colombo set up the Italian American Civil Rights League to accuse people of prejudice against Italians when they talked about organized crime. Yet you imagine a strangely different world, where mobsters and their family and associates admit they are involved with organized crime. Cartoonish thinking, which you put forth as level-headed realism, and which you use to praise or exonerate the W.C.'s abject failure on the Ruby-organized crime connection. And the bonus in your link is Ruby's discussion of the Hunt-promoted John Birch Society.
Oswald the commie-proselytizing Marine: The Hollywood Blacklist wasn't even broken until '60. Ordinary people were censured and blacklisted for having liberal affiliations. The Marines exerted a harsh discipline at the time, including 'blanket parties' for misfits and trouble makers. If the Sarge couldn't beat you, he could get a bunch of lower ranked people to beat you. One Marine I knew closely from that time had his top teeth knocked out by such a gang, because he beat the sarge in a fight due to the sarge disparaging his mother (part of the break them down re-build them 'training' process). The Marine then had to go to a dentist who was an officer afterward, who said 'you don't need novacaine' while he drilled and pulled the stumps of the teeth. The Marine corp behaved like that through the next decade, when recruits were trained for Vietnam. And America's anti-commie fervor continued for decades afterward. Yet you imagine that the hack TV show writer Bellisario's claim that 'Oswald espoused communism in the Marines' and was nicknamed 'Oswaldovitch' by his fellow marines as a perfectly acceptable 'official story', and dismiss the glaring contradiction to reality this provides with 'what difference does it make'. Good answer, Zap.
Ruby Corrects D.A. Wade at the Press Conference: Should I use a Ouija board to follow your advice, here? I notice your flippant answer doesn't address the question at all. Ignore more huge holes and loose threads in the official narrative, don't trouble yourself about it, but pretend you responded.
Bircher Hunt Family: Evidence to a crime can be offered involving method, motive, or opportunity. The question I raised about the Bircher Hunts' activities showed both method and motive, and IS evidence. The Hunts blatantly and purposefully created a poisonous hate-filled atmosphere, telling people Kennedy deserved death, preparing the way. Their hatred for him and accusations of treason by him shows you their motive. So you dismiss evidence by demanding I provide evidence. Sophistry. I like how you add that 'we've seen this kind of hate directed recently at Obama and liberals in general', because that's what I said in my post (655) here, to earn my 'top woo of the thread' award from you. Somehow in your mind, you saying it to me proves you're right, (unclear what you're right about, though). And you think you're telling me something, when you say something I told you. Your observation is 'informative and laudable', but my identical observation is 'woo'. So you're openly just lying to yourself, and thinking 'this sounds good'.
WC composition: Either you were confused by the question, and thought I was asking you if the Fox News definition of F&B could be applied to the WC, or your judgement is questionable.
About your last sentence, I already thanked you in this post's reply title line for the 3 link citations you dug up, though they really shed no new light on the questions at hand, contain internal contradictions, are contradicted by reality, or contain info that contradicts other things you've said. And no, there isn't anything else you can do for me, you've done so much already. You really can't help me any further, because I estimate your judgement to be as low in quality as you estimate mine to be. We think differently. You accept the most cartoonish versions of reality that the official story can provide, without a blink, while simultaneously typing the word 'woo' to accuse others of being divorced from reality. There's a million things wrong with the official story, and you see none. Impossible to argue with someone who thinks with such iron serenity. I'd rather read info from post-ers who give facts that point out the cartoonish 'woo' of the official story, and thank them for their contributions or add some pieces of actual reality that I know about.
See some interesting things in the back-and-forth of this discussion
Point 5 on Iching's excellent post # 587 could be updated to add 'or encouraging reference to Bugliosi and mcadams'.
MMMom's post #s 183, 484, and 175 all made good points that went unanswered, though the opposing post-ers continued to spend a lot of time afterwards posting 'broken record'-style repeats on other subjects, in this same thread. So lack of a refuting post wasn't due to them getting tired of the subject or having time constraints. They effectively put their fingers in their ears and hummed. The tactic seems to be 'if you can't answer, just ignore it, and hope the silence is discouragement enough'. This tactic also seems like it’s a bit intellectually dishonest for good Democrats to use. Thanks to MMM for all the great posts.
The subthread on the motorcade route change starting at Octa's post # 332 is interesting. 'Proof' was provided in a reply to 332 that there wasn't a last minute change to the route, in the form of 2 Dallas papers' write ups that said 'Main-Houston-Elm', dated 11-19. That 3 day time period could easily be called 'last minute', in the context of preparing security for the President's visit to the Bircher mecca that was Dallas in '63, where Ambassador Stevenson was recently struck and spat on by an 'unruly' mob of repugs, and 'Kennedy = Traitor' newspaper op-eds and posters were printed by the Bircher Hunt family.
The Sol Bloom Agency planned the initial route, and the route was changed. The trip was a p.r. trip, so it was designed by a firm to give Kennedy exposure, in healing the TX Dem delegation rift, and in running for re-election. But the firm didn’t have final say in putting the president in a dangerous situation, his security people would have to make sure the route was safe, so he didn’t get the wrong kind of ‘exposure’ in an area he described to his wife with the words ‘we’re really in nut country, now.’ One of Octa’s posts points out that the route didn’t have to use the Elm St. entrance to the Freeway, and once they were on the freeway to Ft Worth, the p.r. motorcade through Dallas was over, anyway. So there was no reason to change the route to Elm, period, though it was ‘explained’ to the satisfaction of the W.C. repugs. But the change did occur and resulted in slowing the motorcade down with a dangerous double turn, right by the building where the ‘lone nut’ recently got a job. A fatally dangerous change.
A search online for 'Sol Bloom motorcade route' to get info on the subject yields references to both George De Mohrenschildt and Ruth Paine getting Oswald jobs in Dallas. The J-C-S job George got Oswald had him visiting the Bloom Agency dozens of times, and the Paine-procured job put him right on the changed route. Those pictures of him with the Militant and his rifle were fake cut-outs, with different sun-cast shadows for the face vs. the body, and the face/head doesn’t change size when the body pose moves forward, so it’s out of proportion. The pictures came from Paine. Oswald was completely set up as a patsy by his two ‘angels’ in Dallas, whether he was an ultra-rightist himself or not.
Having a Jewish mob person shoot Oswald afterward was a Bircher move, like trying to put responsibility for the route onto a Jewish p.r. agency. Both De Mohrenschildt and Paine were hooked into far-right Nazis, ‘christians’, businesspeople with high-level gov security clearances, operating in the city described as ‘the buckle on the bible belt.’ They weren’t Jewish. And the cast of characters around Oswald was set up for a maximum amount of red-herrings, if the ‘lone nut’ story didn’t hold up. His connections with Shaw and Ferrie, as well as his bad relations with his wife, made him out to be a closeted gay person, ‘guilty’ of sexual improprieties; his Russian and Fair Play Cuban connections made him out to be a communist; the Ruby and Bloom connections to the event made him appear to be part of a plot by a religious minority, one that is hated by both the Nazis and birchers. And the birchers are just American Nazi repugs who lost in their bid to back Hitler or have America go the nazi way.
The same people hated Kennedy and smeared him as a religious minority engaged in a plot against America, as a communist, as a sexual pervert. Then he was killed, and they offered up their suspect, someone with the same negative descriptors attached. They openly hated JFK, but they didn’t kill him, someone who was connected to everything they hated about him killed him.
You don’t have to be tremendously astute to notice that the same crowd --of bircher far right repug Nazi sheisskopfs, their descendants, their intellectual and political heirs -- are saying the same thing today about our current Democratic president. He’s a ‘communist’, he’s a ‘Muslim plotting to destroy America’, he’s ‘gay’. It’s the same tactic from the same one-trick pony.
That’s not a coincidence, it’s a pattern.
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