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Silent3

(15,188 posts)
34. You're listing a lot of acts of aggression and greed
Thu Jun 17, 2021, 06:29 PM
Jun 2021

No matter how much you associate those things with capitalism, they aren't capitalism. They can certainly help greedy capitalists get rich, but they aren't in and of themselves capitalism. Aggression and greed have a long and colorful history from thousands of years before Adam Smith was born.

Here are the basic conditions I'm talking about:

1) A relatively broad concept of personal property. This exists in many cultures, particular anything agrarian or industrial. Less so in hunter-gatherer societies perhaps, but even those societies aren't always completely devoid of the idea.

If you started telling people it was illegal to own personal property, I think you'd find yourself very unpopular. Even ruling out certain categories of personal property like land and buildings and machines and tools would be highly unpopular.

2) A willingness and ability among the population to trade property or labor for other property or labor.

Again, try to put significant restrictions on who can buy what from whom, who can work for or hire another person, and you'll have an unpopular outcome that would require oppressive means to enforce.

Simply combine the conditions where both 1 and 2 exist, et voilà, you have markets and you have the means of production.

Capitalism of some form simply happens given these circumstances. The supercharging of capitalism takes a bit more work, like creating monetary policy, banking systems, stock markets, the concept of incorporation, etc.

What annoys me about the way so many people talk about capitalism is they talk about it not only as a system, but as an imposed system, as if a bunch of mustache-twirling fiends gathered together in smoke-filled rooms to create and impose capitalism on everyone else.

I see capitalism much more as a natural outcome of common conditions. Given those conditions, capitalism is simply what happens unless you specifically and consciously create rules that severely limit what people can own and what people can do.

This said, I am certainly in favor of many laws to curb the excesses of capitalism, but there's a whole lot that can be done to curb those excesses which is popular and fair and not gratuitously intrusive, like environmental regulation, workplace safety standards, minimum wage, etc.

I would say that how well an owner accurately makes that sort of assessment determines whether their Hugh_Lebowski Jun 2021 #1
Capitalism isn't really a system Silent3 Jun 2021 #2
That's a peculiar statement. PETRUS Jun 2021 #30
You're listing a lot of acts of aggression and greed Silent3 Jun 2021 #34
... PETRUS Jun 2021 #35
I am not unfamilar with the historical perspective you're talking about... Silent3 Jun 2021 #36
I agree wholeheartedly with your final paragraph. PETRUS Jun 2021 #40
I guess a bunch of words need qualification Silent3 Jun 2021 #54
Thanks for continuing the conversation. PETRUS Jun 2021 #55
Big Corps with stocks are hogtied to making a profit for the stockholders and taking from the... Brainfodder Jun 2021 #3
but it didn't use to be this way slightlv Jun 2021 #19
Thanks for your thoughtful post. smirkymonkey Jun 2021 #22
I am well aware, that is why I am furious. Brainfodder Jun 2021 #25
Capitalism relies on inventiveness to solve a problem. cachukis Jun 2021 #4
What other economic system functions as well? comradebillyboy Jun 2021 #5
It can't be reformed I_UndergroundPanther Jun 2021 #6
It has to be reformed for it to continue. Adam Smith's analysis cachukis Jun 2021 #8
I never managed to finish reading The Wealth of Nations Sapient Donkey Jun 2021 #26
Appreciate the insight. Didn't finish it either. cachukis Jun 2021 #28
By the way, have you read Sapience by Harari? cachukis Jun 2021 #29
It's about power in ownership. RegularJam Jun 2021 #7
I agree slightlv Jun 2021 #20
The real problem with (under-regulated) capitalism is inevitable concentration of wealth Mysterian Jun 2021 #9
Owners? Who are the owners? MineralMan Jun 2021 #10
The question isn't really about Capitalism per se. Happy Hoosier Jun 2021 #11
Truthfully, customers and the stock market determine what owners make Hoyt Jun 2021 #12
Perhaps it's consumer wisdom versus moneymaker wile. cachukis Jun 2021 #13
I've always thought ymetca Jun 2021 #14
Humans have needs that must be met, or we die. MineralMan Jun 2021 #16
Agreed! ymetca Jun 2021 #18
That's a non-sequitur. PETRUS Jun 2021 #31
Not really Zeitghost Jun 2021 #33
No such centrally controlled system has ever succeeded for long. MineralMan Jun 2021 #38
No, I described commerce. The exchange of something valuable for MineralMan Jun 2021 #37
Huh? PETRUS Jun 2021 #41
All economic systems function on an exchange basis for transactions. MineralMan Jun 2021 #43
I don't require your interest. PETRUS Jun 2021 #44
That's good. MineralMan Jun 2021 #45
Some thoughts. PETRUS Jun 2021 #50
In Norway, it is considered KT2000 Jun 2021 #15
Capitalism can only work if it is tightly regulated to protect labor, consumers and the environment ShazamIam Jun 2021 #17
Capitalism is the balls of nature. Condoms, meh, birth control cachukis Jun 2021 #21
So exploiting others is natural. I disagree when the evidence shows that we advance when we ShazamIam Jun 2021 #23
Not saying I am fond of the capitalism within which we live, cachukis Jun 2021 #24
Owners are the most valuable members of a business. Mosby Jun 2021 #27
There are very few large enterprises that are individually-owned. MineralMan Jun 2021 #39
Employers do not set wages Zeitghost Jun 2021 #32
Republicanism is the problem with Capitalism gulliver Jun 2021 #42
This! peggysue2 Jun 2021 #48
Thank you. betsuni Jun 2021 #51
What would you replace it with? MoonRiver Jun 2021 #46
That is precisely the question, isn't it? MineralMan Jun 2021 #47
Exactly! And I still await the OP's rebut. MoonRiver Jun 2021 #49
Something about a revolution where the workers rally, speaking truth to power, billionaires are betsuni Jun 2021 #52
As a small business (law firm) owner, I think your premise is incorrect. TomSlick Jun 2021 #53
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