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In reply to the discussion: Why the Snowden Leak Is Such a Big Deal [View all]LVZ
(937 posts)114. ... echoes of George Orwell
http://hypercube.us/forum/index.php?topic=1526.msg11362#msg11362
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Edward-Snowden-Support-Page/341149745987400
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth will become a revolutionary act."-George Orwell
The passage above clearly describes the odd mutation that has become the new Republican Party and a fair number of Democrats too.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Edward-Snowden-Support-Page/341149745987400
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth will become a revolutionary act."-George Orwell
Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites.
The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal.
We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.
― George Orwell, 1984
The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal.
We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.
― George Orwell, 1984
The passage above clearly describes the odd mutation that has become the new Republican Party and a fair number of Democrats too.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america
from Daniel Ellsberg
In 1975, Senator Frank Church spoke of the National Security Agency in these terms:
"I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return."
The dangerous prospect of which he warned was that America's intelligence gathering capability which is today beyond any comparison with what existed in his pre-digital era "at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left."
That has now happened. That is what Snowden has exposed, with official, secret documents. The NSA, FBI and CIA have, with the new digital technology, surveillance powers over our own citizens that the Stasi the secret police in the former "democratic republic" of East Germany could scarcely have dreamed of. Snowden reveals that the so-called intelligence community has become the United Stasi of America.
So we have fallen into Senator Church's abyss. The questions now are whether he was right or wrong that there is no return from it, and whether that means that effective democracy will become impossible. A week ago, I would have found it hard to argue with pessimistic answers to those conclusions.
But with Edward Snowden having put his life on the line to get this information out, quite possibly inspiring others with similar knowledge, conscience and patriotism to show comparable civil courage in the public, in Congress, in the executive branch itself I see the unexpected possibility of a way up and out of the abyss.
Pressure by an informed public on Congress to form a select committee to investigate the revelations by Snowden and, I hope, others to come might lead us to bring NSA and the rest of the intelligence community under real supervision and restraint and restore the protections of the bill of rights.
Snowden did what he did because he recognised the NSA's surveillance programs for what they are: dangerous, unconstitutional activity. This wholesale invasion of Americans' and foreign citizens' privacy does not contribute to our security; it puts in danger the very liberties we're trying to protect.
In 1975, Senator Frank Church spoke of the National Security Agency in these terms:
"I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return."
The dangerous prospect of which he warned was that America's intelligence gathering capability which is today beyond any comparison with what existed in his pre-digital era "at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left."
That has now happened. That is what Snowden has exposed, with official, secret documents. The NSA, FBI and CIA have, with the new digital technology, surveillance powers over our own citizens that the Stasi the secret police in the former "democratic republic" of East Germany could scarcely have dreamed of. Snowden reveals that the so-called intelligence community has become the United Stasi of America.
So we have fallen into Senator Church's abyss. The questions now are whether he was right or wrong that there is no return from it, and whether that means that effective democracy will become impossible. A week ago, I would have found it hard to argue with pessimistic answers to those conclusions.
But with Edward Snowden having put his life on the line to get this information out, quite possibly inspiring others with similar knowledge, conscience and patriotism to show comparable civil courage in the public, in Congress, in the executive branch itself I see the unexpected possibility of a way up and out of the abyss.
Pressure by an informed public on Congress to form a select committee to investigate the revelations by Snowden and, I hope, others to come might lead us to bring NSA and the rest of the intelligence community under real supervision and restraint and restore the protections of the bill of rights.
Snowden did what he did because he recognised the NSA's surveillance programs for what they are: dangerous, unconstitutional activity. This wholesale invasion of Americans' and foreign citizens' privacy does not contribute to our security; it puts in danger the very liberties we're trying to protect.
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They may respond with terrorist attacks, which is why there was probably a better way to achieve
JaneyVee
Jun 2013
#3
Yeah, meanwhile he flees to China and I'm living in the #1 terrorist target on planet Earth.
JaneyVee
Jun 2013
#12
If you are looking for calling patterns, how would you pull only the numbers you want...
randome
Jun 2013
#65
It's not likely they can set fire to it with out your knowing about it. Besides, it would'nt be them
corkhead
Jun 2013
#64
But they could do that at any time. The only thing that prevents them are laws.
randome
Jun 2013
#66
Americans should have no worry assuming all involved, including contractors, are assiduously honest,
indepat
Jun 2013
#92
Like it or not, we would not be able to function without trusting the bureaucracy a little.
randome
Jun 2013
#94
The government also has the capability of collecting all the data you've ever produced...
dkf
Jun 2013
#103
The UK govt is saying that it's not circumventing UK law by using PRISM
muriel_volestrangler
Jun 2013
#93
It's also important because he makes it *real* - now people are interested and will follow the story
reformist2
Jun 2013
#11
It's not too late to cut way back on internet/phone use. I think it's the only solution, actually.
reformist2
Jun 2013
#41
Someone leaked this information to Greenwald. We all should be concerned about that.
Liberal_Stalwart71
Jun 2013
#13
No one seems concerned that a person who lives in a foreign country now holds classified info.
JaneyVee
Jun 2013
#14
Exactly!! That's what is so disconcerning. We're not paying attention to the real story here.
Liberal_Stalwart71
Jun 2013
#72
He agrees and so do I. Unlike others who somehow think that the president's intentions are evil
Liberal_Stalwart71
Jun 2013
#76
Yep. You've been around long enough to know that it's ALWAYS about the president...
Liberal_Stalwart71
Jun 2013
#75
I work for the federal government, so believe me, I'm very concerned about security.
Liberal_Stalwart71
Jun 2013
#82
The next thing you know there will be x-ray machines and pat downs at airports
Major Nikon
Jun 2013
#21
Let's see, to change the laws signed by Bush, Obama only needs the cooperation of Republicans
Coyotl
Jun 2013
#108
You mean Kerry, right? But it is an interesting question about Clinton as well
BlueStreak
Jun 2013
#39
I doubt it. That would suppose that she is against it, and that is doubtful.
BlueStreak
Jun 2013
#78
The PTB are getting hot under the collar as we reach the Tipping Point or whatever it is.
Octafish
Jun 2013
#105
The stuggle 4 secrecy has already begun the character assassination of Snowden.
morningfog
Jun 2013
#58
The word "Echelon" ring a bell? This type of activity has been around for years.
TxVietVet
Jun 2013
#53
Unfortunately, some narcissistic troublemakers in Philadeplphia leaked the 4th Amendment.
Tierra_y_Libertad
Jun 2013
#62