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DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
163. Kind of. That's not how evidence works. This is not going well for the state.
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 07:58 PM
Jul 2013

Full disclaimer: Zimmerman is at fault. He appears to have needlessly initiated a fatal encounter based on idiotic racial profiling and an irresponsible belief he was entitled to "play cop" with a real gun. But for him being an asshole, an innocent young man would be alive. This post is not a covert argument for stupid cop wanna-bes carrying guns and leaping out of their cars to confront people they deem "suspicious," or that a young man deserved death for wearing a hoodie and being black in an idiot's neighborhood.

Zimmerman is stupid and an ass and at the very least racially biased, and he shot an innocent person, and this is not the way things are supposed to be.

Here are the problems with convicting him as I see it.

The "DON'Ts" you're talking about aren't required. Zimmerman doesn't need corroboration. The state has to OVERCOME what he is saying. Casting doubt won't do it. They need a narrative where Zimmerman killed deliberately AND not in self-defense. They don't seem to have one.

EVIDENCE:
The critical thing, at the end of the day, is what happened just before Martin was killed. The rest of it -- the profiling, the stalking, the likely harassment and confrontation, is despicable, idiotic, likely racist, but not illegal, and does not take away the legal theory of self-defense. Zimmerman, whether he testifies or not, will get his version of events in. Sure, the jury could decide it's all baloney, but they need some basis other than the appearance Zimmerman is a racially profiling idiot to do that.

You can't convict on the basis that something other than what Zimmerman says must have happened because he is a terrible person. This is what people did not understand about the Casey Anthony case. The fact that a defendant appears to be despicable, and / or liar, does not create a set of facts on which you can convict them of murder.

All of this about whether Martin circled or Zimmerman zigzagged doesn't come into play. Who chased who first does not matter. This case boils down to who was on top, doing what, to whom, at the very end. The rest is uncertain and largely irrelevant to the murder charge.

Martin's story will not be told. The phone call, the confused statements of a couple of barely-there witnesses, will not carry much weight, because they're not clear. There is no alternative narrative to Zimmerman's story in evidence at this point. At best, the state seems to be implying he unfairly thought of Martin as a "suspect." That's not enough.

Zimmerman's nose was broken. His head was bloody. Sure, a million things other than his story about being pinned and beaten and in fear could have happened. There is no proof of that, though, and the burden is not on Zimmerman to show he isn't lying.

So the jury's going to be left with a man saying he was fighting for this life and shot to save himself. Guessing that Zimmerman is lying because he started things rolling by being an asshole is not evidence that something other than what he says happened in those final crucial moments.


BURDEN OF PROOF:
The state has to show beyond a reasonable doubt, not ONLY that Zimmerman killed Martin, but that he did it with a "depraved mind regardless of human life," AND that he was not in fear of death or great bodily harm when he did it.

Zimmerman doesn't have to prove anything. If the state doesn't show beyond a reasonable doubt that he murdered Martin with a depraved mind, AND show his claims of self-defense are false, also beyond a reasonable doubt, he wins.

THE CHARGE
Manslaughter would be a lot easier here. That's culpable negligence -- carelessness. The state's not trying for this though. Everything I've seen indicates they've omitted this as a lesser included charge. I think that is a mistake.

It doesn't matter whether the jury thinks Zimmerman is a racist. It doesn't matter if they think his terrible judgment is the ultimate cause of Martin's death. It doesn't matter if they have a some doubt about his story or his wounds or whether he had some other option than lethal force. It matters whether the state can affirmatively show he killed Martin deliberately, and not when defending himself. *Beyond a reasonable doubt.* If the burden went the other way, the state would win, but that's not how the laws are written.

Not calling the case. He could be convicted. But this thing is not slam-dunking its way toward a murder conviction. It is not a "no brainer" for the state. The best evidence of what happened so far is what Zimmerman said to the cops. There is NO clear alternate narrative. Trayvon Martin is not here to tell another story. If he walks, blame the gun laws, blame the self-defense statutes, blame the way the state handled the charge. Bear in mind when you do that a lot of states have similar laws.

But don't pull your hair and claim it's impossible, or the jury were racists, or Florida law is insane. These facts, as egregious as they are, are not providing a great case for the prosecution of a murder charge, and I don't think it's going that well for the prosecution. Maybe they have some great forensic evidence, or a witness we haven't seen.

So far though, they're not making the case.



You are not wrong! Not even close! K&R!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #1
Thank you Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #3
Hunt and Peck sucks ass doesn't it snooper2 Jul 2013 #58
Actually, I'm quite fast Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #61
look how fast I replied snooper2 Jul 2013 #63
I worry about carpel tunnel syndrome Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #68
Dragon Naturally Speaking or Windows Speech Recognition onpatrol98 Jul 2013 #104
Zimmerman started the entire thing and continued it until Trayvon was dead lunatica Jul 2013 #2
I remember you from the old DU2 Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #4
I remember your user name too lunatica Jul 2013 #5
Off topic, I know brush Jul 2013 #101
lol...it could.. Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #110
Well stated. (nt) Paladin Jul 2013 #12
Excellent summary! - n/t fleur-de-lisa Jul 2013 #33
+1000000 dionysus Jul 2013 #67
I think Zimmerman was thrilled when he got the opportunity to shoot the Martin kid. reusrename Jul 2013 #84
Yep yardwork Jul 2013 #115
Paranoid cop wanna be. Glimmer of Hope Jul 2013 #147
None at all treestar Jul 2013 #6
and Zimmerman knows it which is why he says he got out of his vehicle to get an address KurtNYC Jul 2013 #7
you neglected Crepuscular Jul 2013 #8
No. The injuries are not proof that he needed to kill Martin in self defense. Dawgs Jul 2013 #9
They are evidence Crepuscular Jul 2013 #16
Unfortunately for your argument, you completely neglect the possibility that Martin was acting ET Awful Jul 2013 #27
Not ignoring that fact at all Crepuscular Jul 2013 #64
The injury on the back of the head easily could have resulted in one fall Sheepshank Jul 2013 #65
maybe not RGR375 Jul 2013 #116
Why would a kid who was LESS than a block away from home start a fight? vaberella Jul 2013 #168
There was testimony traco Jul 2013 #188
But the question is 'who was defending themselves, Zimmerman or Martin?' Dawgs Jul 2013 #31
There is alot of conflicting evidence in this case wercal Jul 2013 #55
Talk about "believe the evidence they like" Dawgs Jul 2013 #62
Its a court case...it doesn't matter what I believe. wercal Jul 2013 #123
The prosecution Crepuscular Jul 2013 #69
We'll see if they can prove it. What you think happened has nothing to do with it. n/t Dawgs Jul 2013 #70
If somebody I don't know follows me carrying a gun, damn right I'll be in fear for my life. ET Awful Jul 2013 #138
Not if you are unaware of it. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #139
So you're telling me that if someone was following you with a gun in an area you had every ET Awful Jul 2013 #153
How would I know he had a gun? Crepuscular Jul 2013 #160
If, as Zimmerman says, Martin reached for his gun, I'd say it's a safe bet that Martin KNEW he had ET Awful Jul 2013 #166
I agree with Crespuscular. Llewlladdwr Jul 2013 #162
So if Martin had any indication Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #53
And. . . . crickets. stranger81 Jul 2013 #140
Some have expresed to me Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #142
It's not necessary to have injuries traco Jul 2013 #189
That is evidence of a struggle Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #10
And the lack of evidence of the beginning of the struggle is thus a hangar full of reasonable doubt Roland99 Jul 2013 #14
Except for the bullet Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #15
That's the end, though. There is plenty of doubt that can be sewed in the minds of the jury... Roland99 Jul 2013 #34
But it seems to me Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #39
True...but if the jury believes Zimmerman feared for his life...welll....... Roland99 Jul 2013 #41
well, that's where I have a problem TorchTheWitch Jul 2013 #119
+++ Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #143
True, premium Jul 2013 #42
The term Crepuscular Jul 2013 #17
Lol Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #20
That is where you John2 Jul 2013 #75
Good post. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #79
I can help you with that... Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #165
Has there been evidence submitted of ANY injuries to Martin? Roland99 Jul 2013 #13
I think i read that undertaker for martin riverbendviewgal Jul 2013 #26
Not necessarily true. Zimmerman could have shown Martin that he had a gun. Dawgs Jul 2013 #32
But that's purely conjecture, eh? Roland99 Jul 2013 #36
Of course, but so is suggesting jury can only come up with conclusion. n/t Dawgs Jul 2013 #38
And who is doing that? I came up with one "likely" scenario given that the defense only need prove.. Roland99 Jul 2013 #40
Same thing I did, and I'm not arguing for whether Z will be found convicted or not. n/t Dawgs Jul 2013 #66
Yes Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #59
wow...how cute. Roland99 Jul 2013 #78
Those so-called injuries are so laughably minor that they must be self-inflicted. mbperrin Jul 2013 #35
Uh-huh, Sure. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #71
There's no real injury there is the point. mbperrin Jul 2013 #121
he would likely be hired as an expert on Fox News. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #144
If Zimmerman feared for his life - if his injuries were so grievous demwing Jul 2013 #44
He was treated at the scene Crepuscular Jul 2013 #114
The chief medical examiner for the county says that Zimmerman's injuries were "small" and ET Awful Jul 2013 #155
Didn't watch the testimony Crepuscular Jul 2013 #157
Some conjecture droidamus2 Jul 2013 #45
pure conjecture Crepuscular Jul 2013 #112
I feel the injuries on his head are too high to have been SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #47
I'm suggesting that Crepuscular Jul 2013 #60
he bumped his head when he fell down and got some scratches. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #145
punches to the nose very rarely are lethal magical thyme Jul 2013 #95
equally plausible Crepuscular Jul 2013 #111
Yes. The killer is not a reliable source of info yardwork Jul 2013 #117
This is because of "stand your ground" DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #102
Sorry. Z was the aggressor by stalking. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #106
Lack of injuries to TM's hands, no blood on them either Marrah_G Jul 2013 #118
I don't believe Crepuscular Jul 2013 #120
I'll check back in after the forensics Marrah_G Jul 2013 #122
The ME testified today that Zimmerman's injuries were insigificant csziggy Jul 2013 #183
He was just acting on the number one gun nut fantasy. onehandle Jul 2013 #11
yep In_The_Wind Jul 2013 #18
Absolutely! reusrename Jul 2013 #85
From your lips to the prosecutions ears! k&r Little Star Jul 2013 #19
Yes Soundman Jul 2013 #21
What does Martin get a pass on? Nt Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #22
Wow, a lot of replies. Soundman Jul 2013 #76
I,personally, am not accusing Z of racism Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #90
He was never convicted of domestic battery, premium Jul 2013 #91
I must have missed the facts in your post. Just Saying Jul 2013 #96
I thought Zimmerman was on trial, not Trayvon Martin. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #146
On the positive side, you've only been on 2 DU juries. uppityperson Jul 2013 #151
I Don't beleive I Soundman Jul 2013 #190
"Zimmerman gets vilified even when the evidence says otherwise?" Dawgs Jul 2013 #37
well, he's dead. the only account we are getting is zimmerman's. ejpoeta Jul 2013 #43
DAMN MARTIN demwing Jul 2013 #46
Don't forget his locked and loaded can of tea... SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #49
OMG the TEA demwing Jul 2013 #51
he gets "a pass" noiretextatique Jul 2013 #128
a pass? he's dead noiretextatique Jul 2013 #127
Racism sucks. demwing Jul 2013 #131
yes, martin gets a pass on everything, including his life.. frylock Jul 2013 #133
Did you know Trayvon Martin was SHOT AND KILLED? Hardly "a pass". Good lord. uppityperson Jul 2013 #154
No you ctsnowman Jul 2013 #23
I predict not guilty of 2nd degree but madville Jul 2013 #24
This sounds like a reasonable conclusion. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #25
I would have to agree Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #28
You assume the onus is on the defense joeglow3 Jul 2013 #29
How about his video re=creation of events and the testimony SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #52
I will not claim to be an expert on the case joeglow3 Jul 2013 #73
Photo Evidence and the cop's testimony of Trayvon's position when SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #81
You and I have a different opinion on what the burden of proof should be joeglow3 Jul 2013 #105
but his own personal standard of self-defense was good enough to justify killing Trayvon? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #148
I believe in objective application of the law joeglow3 Jul 2013 #156
why is the testimony of rachel jeantel worth less than any other testimony? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #158
Where did I say that joeglow3 Jul 2013 #169
no, I didn't say you said it, Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #177
He doesn't need to prove his side joeglow3 Jul 2013 #178
neither side can be proved. nor proven. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #184
Which is why the case is going so well for him joeglow3 Jul 2013 #185
don't agree it's going well for him. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #194
Also Remember Florida is NOT a "retreat to the wall" state. happyslug Jul 2013 #30
Zimmerman is claiming self defense demwing Jul 2013 #50
Florida, the sunshine state where . . . madashelltoo Jul 2013 #74
I think what Zimmerman actually did is legal in FL. Even though he was the aggressor. reusrename Jul 2013 #87
He's not using the SYG defense. nt. premium Jul 2013 #92
I thought that was clear in my post. He chose to lie instead. reusrename Jul 2013 #93
There is nothing illegal premium Jul 2013 #97
The DA didn't have much of a choice here. Had Zimmerman been arrested that night, maybe. reusrename Jul 2013 #100
Judging from what I've seen so far, premium Jul 2013 #103
"I think what Zimmerman actually did is legal in FL." Then there would be no trial. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #108
Correct, that's exactly what I was saying. reusrename Jul 2013 #132
but under Florida law, Trayvon had the same right. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #152
this completely exonerates Trayvon, if he did start the fight Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #150
The statute that you quoted Crepuscular Jul 2013 #191
nothing zimmerman claims can be proved. it's just as likely, or more likely, that he initiated the Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #193
evidence not consistent with Zimmerman's exaggerated claims Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #195
The only evidence for self defense is Zimmerman's word and judgement... Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #48
Exactly SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #57
The evidence Crepuscular Jul 2013 #72
Good lord. Nevernose Jul 2013 #149
No, it's really not. Crepuscular Jul 2013 #159
I will agree on one important point: Nevernose Jul 2013 #161
When I was a kid I didn't want anything Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #164
Zimmerman stalked Martin The Wizard Jul 2013 #54
I am afraid you ARE wrong... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #56
-1 darkangel218 Jul 2013 #77
How am I wrong? Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #82
Zimmy is not gonna be aquitted. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #83
And 99% of America said the same thing premium Jul 2013 #88
The "reality" that, based on... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #99
Granting your argument Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #86
I agree with your frustration... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #89
No, you are not wrong. ReRe Jul 2013 #80
I invite you to read this Florida court decision. onenote Jul 2013 #94
There doesn't need to be kudzu22 Jul 2013 #98
Exactly. Suppose, let's say, a woman had turned on Jack the Ripper & bloodied his face before he WinkyDink Jul 2013 #107
+1 Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #113
Impossible to cover all scenarios RGR375 Jul 2013 #129
No he is still a murderer (Jack the Ripper) RGR375 Jul 2013 #124
I missed the first responder testimony, so LynnTTT Jul 2013 #109
no...you are right noiretextatique Jul 2013 #125
sure there is d_b Jul 2013 #126
the archtype of the dangerous black man noiretextatique Jul 2013 #130
Unfortunately he does not have to prove his innocence, the prosecution has to prove his guilt. DrewFlorida Jul 2013 #134
The state has to prove that it's NOT self defense davidn3600 Jul 2013 #135
Self defense is an affirmative defense gollygee Jul 2013 #136
Not really. DirkGently Jul 2013 #170
Wikipedia isn't a good source. Florida case law is. onenote Jul 2013 #181
You are right. bravenak Jul 2013 #137
simple and excellent. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #141
Kind of. That's not how evidence works. This is not going well for the state. DirkGently Jul 2013 #163
I'm not one to pull my hair out Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #172
Ha. I know. I was addressing "the room" as well. DirkGently Jul 2013 #173
I agree Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #175
Do not put your hands on anybody RGR375 Jul 2013 #176
Jesus god, don't agree with me. DirkGently Jul 2013 #182
I suppose if one ignores the broken nose and lacerations to the head... Llewlladdwr Jul 2013 #167
this has to be a joke Skittles Jul 2013 #171
So killing a kid Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #174
You don't understand criminal legal cases. Much of what you list isn't an element of the crime. Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #179
sadly, a large number of the posts about this trial are made by people who have made no effort onenote Jul 2013 #180
"It doesn't matter that GZ called 911, except to show that he didn't intend to kill TM" Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #192
No, and you are more generous in your assessment than I am. Answer me this: freshwest Jul 2013 #186
We all know how a court or jury Shankapotomus Jul 2013 #187
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