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DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
60. "Fawning" is bad. Biblical social norms are bad. Economic justice is good. Not that complicated.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:36 PM
Dec 2013

I think the key nonsense here is "fawning." No, no one should be "fawning" over a Pope. Or any religious leader. Or any political one. I think everyone here could agree immediately that there is no basis for overwhelming, unadulterated praise and love for the leader of the Catholic Church.

So we could all be done right there. No fawning. No one's pro fawning. That's ridiculous.

But that's a bit of a straw man argument, and what's really being suggested is that it's wrong to acknowledge the leader of the Catholic Church saying or doing anything right, which is frankly kind of insane and smacks of the weird American religious bias against Catholics.

First off, OUR crazy homophobes and misogynists are Protestants. There are all kinds of polls lying around showing American Catholics are not only more progressive than other religious people, but on the actual issues for which the Catholic Church takes so much righteous blame. Abortion. Birth control. Gay rights. Your basic American abortion doctor killer or gay club bomber will be a Baptist or some other Protestant sect. So let's not get all fuzzy about where the core of insanely regressive social theory lies amongst ourselves. It ain't the Vatican, and it's always a bit off when people charge in and attempt to blame Catholicism for all of the stupid ideas contained in Christianity.

Secondly, we routinely acknowledge steps in the right direction from bad institutions and the leaders of the same. All kinds of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim leaders are applauded for making worthy comments about tolerance or peace or taking care of the poor. All of them subscribe to holy books that say gay people and women are subject to savage mistreatment in the name of "God." It's nice that some talk around the Old Testament, and never mention the horrible stuff, but if we're going with institutional crimes, no Western religion gets a pass.

Obama, for example, is a Christian, and therefore subscribes to a Bible that has all the nutty Catholic crap in it too. And, he is the leader of a racist, sexist, homophobic country. Within recent memory, he expressly opposed gay marriage on religious grounds. He "evolved," whether out of conscience, public pressure, political expedience, or (most likely) a combination of the three. But we do not say he is therefore lying when he says something good or makes a change for the better because he is the leader of a country with a lot crimes to answer for and a lot of horrible ideas still on the books.

Thirdly, the Pope giving mere "lip service" to a better idea like economic justice over a worse one, like homophobia, is a real thing with real value. He may be the theoretical "king" of the Church, but he can no more erase every intolerant Catholic policy with a wave of whatever that stick is he has than Obama can open Guantanamo tomorrow, or tell the states to stop preventing gay people from adopting children.

Finally, if we propose that we need to tell the Catholic Church that it is not okay until it starts rejecting the horrible ideas embedded in Christianity and embracing the good ones, the way you do that is to DO THAT. Just like any leader of any screwed up organization with a mountain of sins and anti-progressive policies, we recognize an improvement, or a faint nod in the right direction, while continuing to condemn the abominable.

And yeah, the racist, creepy, horrible Paul family is right on drug laws and right on getting out of wars in the Middle East, for Jesus' sake. We don't have to lie and pretend they're wrong about everything because they're wrong about a lot of important things, because we are not robots or children. No one is buying that noise, and it doesn't look any smarter or sound more convincing when it is dragged out over and over again. People are not all one thing. No one thinks that. If Michele Bachmann says something smart someday, we should all say, "Hey, that was pretty smart." Because otherwise you end up lying to try to support or attack a person, and right and wrong become superfluous.

Economic justice is good, whether it's coming from the mouth of the Pope or a Senator or god-forbid-a-Republican. We can acknowledge good without "fawning" over someone, or forgetting that they are completely, unforgivably wrong about drone strikes or abortion or same sex marriage. If we want leaders to do better things and stop doing worse things, we acknowledge when they get it right, even a little bit.

The rest is a lot of hot air.

Thank you.

Women & LGBT don’t need Catholics to be their friends, we need them to stop actively challenging PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #1
This ^^ is a very important point. Squinch Dec 2013 #110
Many progressive women are Catholics -- in fact, Catholic women pnwmom Dec 2013 #124
That's awesome. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #128
They finance organizations to fight poverty. pnwmom Dec 2013 #139
Again, awesome! But it doesn't change the fact they actively fight against my rights and the rights PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #144
No problem on the economics - TBF Dec 2013 #146
Can't we see a glass half full? treestar Dec 2013 #2
Let's use your analogy. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #5
A bit confused... pipi_k Dec 2013 #39
That's not what I meant. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #40
Pope Francis is not batshit insane. Baitball Blogger Dec 2013 #71
Did I say Pope Francis is batshit insane? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #75
Mea Culpa. Baitball Blogger Dec 2013 #78
We got those two things treestar Dec 2013 #87
Legalizing weed is a trivial issue compared to economic justice for all. pnwmom Dec 2013 #125
Well, yes. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #129
Yes. We must stamp out anything and anyone who isn't ideologically pure LittleBlue Dec 2013 #3
Is it honest to present a request to stop fawning as a demand to 'stamp out' anything? Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #21
So why fawn over that? LittleBlue Dec 2013 #34
+100% /nt demwing Dec 2013 #45
I just asked if you think your hyperbolic language is honest. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #57
My hyperbolic language was in response to the hyperbolic language in the OP LittleBlue Dec 2013 #61
The last line is the kicker... PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #4
Bingo. That really IS the kicker. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #11
and completely unable to see how they are intertwined. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #13
Unable or just unwilling? Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #31
How are we "tossing aside" issues simply because we see some good coming from Francis? OnionPatch Dec 2013 #114
Nice straw man argument. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #119
Yup. That line absolutely nailed it... SidDithers Dec 2013 #50
Birth control is necessary to economic progress. It's necessary for our environment. LeftyMom Dec 2013 #6
This is the meat and potatoes of the article: Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #7
But but but popey-poo said people should be NICE to us while they strip us of our rights. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #8
He has a really crappy car! LeftyMom Dec 2013 #9
A Renault, FFS. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #10
Don't forget he's Batman at night Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #16
I'm curious, given all the recent Robertson flap, LadyHawkAZ Dec 2013 #117
He's been in office for, what, eight months? Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #12
How much did Dubya accomplish in his first year? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #15
"called for"? How is that different from the Pope? El_Johns Dec 2013 #17
You focus on that? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #19
Yes, because your key point is that the Pope is all talk -- so why do you include mere talk El_Johns Dec 2013 #23
It wasn't all talk. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #26
Yet Guantanamo is still open. El_Johns Dec 2013 #29
Yeah, congress wouldn't give him the money to do that. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #32
And people here on DU BLAME him for not using the magic wand to make it go POOOOF!!!!!! MADem Dec 2013 #127
The difference between pipi_k Dec 2013 #47
Apples and oranges Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #20
What "moving in the right direction" is happening? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #24
He's changing the emphasis of teh church Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #25
Maslow and Pareto efficiency gulliver Dec 2013 #30
Okay, let's talk about starving people. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #38
Restaurants could also sell nothing but frozen food. gulliver Dec 2013 #51
Restaurants are out to make money. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #59
How much is in your bank account? 401(K)? No Vested Interest Dec 2013 #72
It's not my job to spend all my (meager) money on the poor. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #74
Not the chief function of the Church. Only a secondary mission. No Vested Interest Dec 2013 #77
That's not their job at all, though they do a lot of that. MADem Dec 2013 #130
So, their job is to hoard money and spread their religion? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #131
Well, you'll have to ask them about that. I do know that their "job" isn't MADem Dec 2013 #132
You are wrong about him being able to change doctrine. A Pope CANNOT change Church doctrine. Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #35
He doesn't have to 'let' gay people get married, just stop actively challenging their rights. Same PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #37
Your being perplexed might spring from a lack of knowledge about Francis' role as Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #42
Rudy got an annulment, it is NOT divorce Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #53
His first marriage annulment. The second, the mother of his children, he divorced Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #62
Then, per the Church, Rudy is an adulteror, living in mortal sin Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #66
I was countering the contention that Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #89
Yep, lots of people do what they please, or at least pick what they please Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #93
actually when it comes to supporters of abortion rights dsc Dec 2013 #102
Rudy thinks the rules don't apply to him. He gets away with it, too...! MADem Dec 2013 #133
How is it you deem Rudy Guiliani "a Good Catholic"? No Vested Interest Dec 2013 #73
Who am I to judge? Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #90
Um, yes the pope can absolutely change canon law. All popes have. NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #44
Those are small changes in Canon Law, NOT changes in Doctrine Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #56
I guess Pope Francis can't wave some magic wand and fix everything then. pa28 Dec 2013 #81
Oh hell no! Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #82
Seemingly we have been going through waves of topics... Jesus Malverde Dec 2013 #112
Your assumption that he wants to 'move the bus' on homophobia in his Church Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #33
Chalk me up as "unaware" Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #43
Can you give examples of what you mean by "ardent & vicious attacker"? As I understand it, El_Johns Dec 2013 #55
Francis said stopping marriage equality was 'God's war'. He said gay relationships Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #63
Just last year Ratzinger said: El_Johns Dec 2013 #67
I've found the source of 3 of your quotes -- all from the same internal El_Johns Dec 2013 #85
He's an absolute monarch whose word is law. He has absolute control over the church. NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #41
Not hardly Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #46
Wrong. The pope can change Canon law at any time. NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #49
OK, show me the evidence n/t Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #58
They cannot, because none exists. Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #69
"I do not fault them for not agreeing". No Vested Interest Dec 2013 #76
It is sad, because I believe the Roman Catholic Church needs some 21st Century updating Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #79
Thank you. 840high Dec 2013 #107
He is not perfect shenmue Dec 2013 #14
He doesn't have to be perfect.... Bigmack Dec 2013 #18
Remember when Obama's position was "marriage is between a man and a woman- God is in the mix"? Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #22
I remember that he is a politician and he had previously spoken in favor of equality Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #52
I never let up on Obama, either. Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #54
Francis has made no such steps. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #64
"Pope Francis’ representative to Uganda concerned by new anti-gay law" Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #65
yes, but only concerned that the punishment does not fit the sin (the crime) Laughing Mirror Dec 2013 #141
Both the Ugandan Catholic church & the international Catholic church have taken very public El_Johns Dec 2013 #68
82% of Uganda is either Catholic or Anglican, nothing happens there without Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #91
You make that claim; where's your evidence? Are you claiming the Catholic Church runs Uganda? El_Johns Dec 2013 #92
Your claim is that 82% of the population had nothing to do with this law? Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #98
Funny. Your claim amounts to saying that even though both the Ugandan Catholic hierarchy El_Johns Dec 2013 #99
This 'which group of anti gay religionists is most culpable' trip is your own. To me they are all Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #115
Does your dislike of religion give you free rein to misrepresent the facts? El_Johns Dec 2013 #137
Anglican leadership not so silent ... Laughing Mirror Dec 2013 #142
Very public positions since 08? The Pope's assistant has expressed his concern and Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #95
Yes, public positions since '08. There were earlier iterations of this bill, you understand. El_Johns Dec 2013 #96
Some pertinent links theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #145
Ah yes, good old Rick Warren... theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #143
Bahaha! Whatever. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #27
yeah, because appreciating the Pope addressing cali Dec 2013 #28
cali, look at the number of people in this thread insisting that Francis is tolerant toward Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #36
^^This!^^ mr blur Dec 2013 #100
I haven't seen anyone at DU doing that Warpy Dec 2013 #48
"Fawning" is bad. Biblical social norms are bad. Economic justice is good. Not that complicated. DirkGently Dec 2013 #60
What he said n/t lordsummerisle Dec 2013 #103
Of course! Because it's all or nothing. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #70
Seems to me Flatpicker Dec 2013 #80
So because the Pope didn't instantly stand up against 3000 years of Church Dogma SomethingFishy Dec 2013 #83
+1000 BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #97
At this point, I think it is fair to say quit the hypocritical gnashing of teeth. TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #84
thank you for this thread. i am getting annoyed with the fawning over this pope Liberal_in_LA Dec 2013 #86
I like him - that does 840high Dec 2013 #108
i cant like someone who supports second class status for some of humanity Liberal_in_LA Dec 2013 #122
sorry. You don't get to tell me what to think. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #88
fuck that he is a huge shift for the church Egnever Dec 2013 #94
Homophobe, Misogynist, and defender of child rapists... Demo_Chris Dec 2013 #101
"progressive pin up"? rug Dec 2013 #104
life is so simple when there are no shades of grey madrchsod Dec 2013 #105
What? FYI - anyone that turns the stomach of the GOP with his caring... Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2013 #106
Stop telling me what to do oldhippie Dec 2013 #109
Yes and also no DonCoquixote Dec 2013 #111
Recognizing the Pope's emphasis on the poor Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #113
Of course not, but misrepresenting or denying his bigotry and opposition to women's rights is Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #116
I don't know that many here are "denying his bigotry and opposition to women's rights." Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #118
You're missing the point entirely. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #120
Exactly AuntPatsy Dec 2013 #126
Oh, brother. LWolf Dec 2013 #121
I don't perceive approval for one or more policy fixes as 'fawning' LanternWaste Dec 2013 #123
Of course! He spoke out against Western corporate malfeasance! We MUST hate him now! Rex Dec 2013 #134
k&r This pope is a homophobic bigot, forced-birther, and protector of institutionalised pedophilia. idwiyo Dec 2013 #135
until he admits his religion like all religions is a fraud bowens43 Dec 2013 #136
Until Obama, or Clinton or Warren or Sanders or ANY politician admits that the state is an Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #147
People fawn after Francis the way the world fawned over Obama after Bush DuaneBidoux Dec 2013 #138
I like this Pope. Beacool Dec 2013 #140
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