General Discussion

jeff47

(26,549 posts)

69. I don't.

Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:46 AM

Apr 2014

Let's go back and re-read the last paragraph of the first post where you replied to me.

What we need is a law to stop both the NSA and the phone companies. But if you convince everyone that your argument is correct, we do not get that law - You erroneously convinced people that stopping the NSA stops the privacy violation.

I'm saying we need Congress to pass new laws in order to protect our privacy. That isn't supporting the establishment. That's saying we need to change the establishment to support us. And there's tons of "big data" entities that will fight us.

You support the nuke establishment against all reason

No, what I do not support is the bullshit you smear about them. For example, according to your posts, North America was supposed to become an uninhabitable wasteland a year ago.

When that didn't happen, you started claiming that all life in the Pacific would be dead...6 months ago.

Lying your ass off is not being "anti-establishment". It's lying your ass off.

and now you are sitting there telling me that the NSA is capable of doing more, but all they do is what they can buy from AT&T.

Well, there's this guy named Snowden. So far, he's only leaked that the NSA did what they can buy from AT&T.

So where's that second program? Why are Greenwald, Snowden and everyone else not leaking it?

You'd think if there were all these other programs spying on US persons, he might have leaked a second one that spied on US persons. Btw, just so you are aware, "US Person" is not the same thing as US citizen. It means someone subject to US jurisdiction. Which means it should be easier to find abuses:

Let's say the NSA is listening to all the phone calls of Mr. Evil-doer. Mr. Evil-doer then travels to Guam. To follow the law, the NSA has to either stop listening while he's in Guam, or they have to get a warrant. Now, I'd imagine that it would be pretty easy for the NSA to claim this kind of thing "slipped through the cracks" all the the time in order for them to keep spying anyway. Yet Snowden and company have not leaked evidence of such a program.

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Highlight:

For The Record: The NSA Spied on All Americans. It Is a Fact. [View all] MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 OP

DU Rec. eom MohRokTah Apr 2014 #1

"Conversation." blkmusclmachine Apr 2014 #2

There's no way to spin it. HooptieWagon Apr 2014 #3

I'm afraid secondvariety Apr 2014 #5

+1 nashville_brook Apr 2014 #148

NO, they didn't. THAT is a fact. jazzimov Apr 2014 #4

Another of those 'unknown unknowns? elias49 Apr 2014 #6

A defender of Clapper's lies here at the "Underground" villager Apr 2014 #11

word. nt silvershadow Apr 2014 #45

Comrade Jazzimov billhicks76 Apr 2014 #150

So when Bartlet Apr 2014 #152

Welcome to DU!You actually consider that "not a problem" when the private sector collects your info? villager Apr 2014 #156

First of all, you do know that Wikileaks can be edited by anyone on the internet, right? cui bono Apr 2014 #13

First of all, I'm talking about the Wikileaks "evidence" jazzimov Apr 2014 #32

So no new technology is covered by the constitution? cui bono Apr 2014 #43

Obviously, you don't know the Constitution OR jazzimov Apr 2014 #57

What is that supposed to even mean? Ed Suspicious Apr 2014 #77

Data bases are quite complicated,You type in a query and it returns the results Dragonfli Apr 2014 #78

I nearly fell out of my chair laughing Aerows Apr 2014 #115

Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder? Ed Suspicious Apr 2014 #153

Magical indeed! Ed Suspicious Apr 2014 #154

Closing your eyes to inconvenient truths is also unproductive. lark Apr 2014 #128

Wow, so many false statements, so little time hueymahl Apr 2014 #161

Think you may be conflating Wikileaks and Wikipedia. mattclearing Apr 2014 #73

Ignorance is on the calling card Android3.14 Apr 2014 #85

Oh! Yes I was.... brain fart. cui bono Apr 2014 #169

Some apparently has a different fourth amendment, you know like Cliven Bundy, Thinkingabout Apr 2014 #47

Private firms bl968 Apr 2014 #80

Clapper's deliberate word games? G_j Apr 2014 #84

I've seen that part of the hearing a number of times. Clapper answered the question truthfully. George II Apr 2014 #90

Clapper himslef has admitted he lied to the Senate Committee. bvar22 Apr 2014 #103

No one is entitled to their own "Facts" the fact is NSA spies and is spying on US all. Believe what Vincardog Apr 2014 #110

It all depends on what "is" is. clarice Apr 2014 #135

Wow billhicks76 Apr 2014 #149

Excellent, Manny! I, too, am sure he was going to tell us. Um hmm. n/t truth2power Apr 2014 #7

Sure he was. 840high Apr 2014 #8

He was going to tell us as soon as he found his comfortable shoes. OnyxCollie Apr 2014 #16

Manny, Phlem Apr 2014 #9

"have you noticed a flood of posters roughly 200 to 400 posts recently getting very animated in DU?" Cali_Democrat Apr 2014 #12

I thought you were against the NSA spying? n/t cui bono Apr 2014 #14

Are you sure you're responding to the right person? Cali_Democrat Apr 2014 #18

No, that's seems to be the standard Bobbie Jo Apr 2014 #116

Getting that check every two weeks from Karl Rove helps keep perspective MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #21

+1... freebrew Apr 2014 #95

Well we have had the conversation. zeemike Apr 2014 #10

Anyone watching Good Wife riverbendviewgal Apr 2014 #15

rec'd for the flattery through immitation nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #17

Kick. GoneFishin Apr 2014 #19

Yall need to study your constituion more Cryptoad Apr 2014 #20

Correct Cali_Democrat Apr 2014 #24

I thought you were against the NSA spying? n/t cui bono Apr 2014 #53

Are you sure you're replying to the right person? Cali_Democrat Apr 2014 #55

You can argue the unconstitutionality of a program before it reaches the high court. ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2014 #28

It reached the high court in 1979. jeff47 Apr 2014 #35

we need a new law ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2014 #39

Metadata is nothin. jeff47 Apr 2014 #60

that's the same info sunnystarr Apr 2014 #91

Nope. jeff47 Apr 2014 #113

That wasn't an appeal to authority. bvar22 Apr 2014 #126

Yep Cali_Democrat Apr 2014 #42

Cali, you are so right. mimi85 Apr 2014 #59

This guy disagrees. bvar22 Apr 2014 #105

This doesn't fit the new meme so it doesn't count. think Apr 2014 #108

The fun thing about opinions is they don't change reality. jeff47 Apr 2014 #112

..and THAT is YOUR "opinion". bvar22 Apr 2014 #118

Appeal to authority is an odd tactic for someone so anti-establishment. jeff47 Apr 2014 #119

Ron Wyden has never claimed they lied. joshcryer Apr 2014 #22

Well... I didn't claim that in my OP, but in any case... MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #26

Wyden made sure the record was correct. joshcryer Apr 2014 #34

HAIL HYDRA! whatchamacallit Apr 2014 #23

No they didn't treestar Apr 2014 #25

What evidence are you basing your certainty of "no they didnt" on? Are you absolutely certain? rhett o rick Apr 2014 #46

Because Obama! neverforget Apr 2014 #62

Well, only one program has leaked so far jeff47 Apr 2014 #63

Baffled that anyone believes the NSA didn't spy on all Americans, and doesn't still. Skip Intro Apr 2014 #27

Some shade of brown. ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2014 #29

lol. n/t Skip Intro Apr 2014 #33

Ouch. MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #36

+1 L0oniX Apr 2014 #89

I think it's called shit brown. JEB Apr 2014 #104

Well when your head is Aerows Apr 2014 #117

What do you think the NSA rah rah crowd eats? JEB Apr 2014 #125

I think they are mushrooms. n/t Aerows Apr 2014 #139

Paid mushrooms living off the shit buried in the bowels of the dying empire. JEB Apr 2014 #147

HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Apr 2014 #30

It is as much a fact as Saddam's WMDs. jeff47 Apr 2014 #31

Nah, they keep all plaintext, they just can't "view it" without a warrant. joshcryer Apr 2014 #37

That's why posts like this OP are really, really, really dumb jeff47 Apr 2014 #41

Did *I* suggest the "fix"? MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #44

Yes. You demanded the NSA "stop spying". jeff47 Apr 2014 #49

The US security apparatus reports to the President MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #54

And there go the goalposts. jeff47 Apr 2014 #58

Haven't moved a bit. You asked a question, I answered it, MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #66

And here we get to stage 2 of Manny's argument going South jeff47 Apr 2014 #68

Or receiving a barrage of prevarications and personal insults MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #101

Too bad those posts are still there. jeff47 Apr 2014 #114

So Mr. Jeff, you seem to enjoy finding cracks in arguments (whether they are there or not) hueymahl Apr 2014 #163

So Castro, 2024. joshcryer Apr 2014 #51

The fix is insane. joshcryer Apr 2014 #50

"Anyone with a checkbook" does not have the right to imprison me. nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #40

Yes, actually they do. jeff47 Apr 2014 #48

You just admitted they are spying on everyone RobertEarl Apr 2014 #56

Reading. You really need to start trying it. jeff47 Apr 2014 #61

Did you just now start reading? RobertEarl Apr 2014 #64

The problem with attempting a "gotcha" is you have to actually be clever to pull it off. jeff47 Apr 2014 #65

Question RobertEarl Apr 2014 #67

I don't. jeff47 Apr 2014 #69

You have any links? RobertEarl Apr 2014 #70

Don't remember your own posting history? jeff47 Apr 2014 #71

Just check my journal RobertEarl Apr 2014 #75

Oddly enough, you don't send every post to your journal. jeff47 Apr 2014 #111

Blatant epic false equivalency. Phone companies are not looking for criminals and terrorists. L0oniX Apr 2014 #92

Privacy is not only from the government. jeff47 Apr 2014 #109

I agree with you that corporate collection of personal information is a problem. Maedhros Apr 2014 #120

What bad acts? jeff47 Apr 2014 #123

I won't recap all of the revelations from the leaked documents. Maedhros Apr 2014 #124

The ruling did not claim it only covered individual suspects. jeff47 Apr 2014 #127

Um...in my previous response I did agree that there is a larger problem Maedhros Apr 2014 #132

Sure, just like Dred Scott. jeff47 Apr 2014 #136

Federal judges are certainly not infallible. Maedhros Apr 2014 #142

You are badly, badly twisting that opinion hueymahl Apr 2014 #165

Sure ...Verizon is voluntarily forwarding meta to NSA under no threat. L0oniX Apr 2014 #121

They'd have no metadata to forward if they weren't spying jeff47 Apr 2014 #122

OFFS now I get it... L0oniX Apr 2014 #145

They could be terrorists, though. Democracyinkind Apr 2014 #38

Manny, you are without a doubt mimi85 Apr 2014 #52

Manny, You Are A Treasure Here, And This Place Wouldn't Be The Same Without You !!! WillyT Apr 2014 #72

It takes courage to speak the truth. Obnoxious_One Apr 2014 #74

K&R n/t NealK Apr 2014 #76

Agreed - No Other Way To Spin This cantbeserious Apr 2014 #79

Not only did we get lied to by the NSA... 99Forever Apr 2014 #81

Couldn't agree more..... Swede Atlanta Apr 2014 #82

Facts don't get us very far, unfortunately Demeter Apr 2014 #83

I remember then talking about listening for certian words and then tracking those words. That would jwirr Apr 2014 #86

That's quite a leap in assumptions. randome Apr 2014 #96

I was not the one who fist suggested that they spied on us using words. I do not remember where jwirr Apr 2014 #98

And there is nothing to indicate it applies to citizens. randome Apr 2014 #99

"For The Record:" ProSense Apr 2014 #87

Just curious hueymahl Apr 2014 #166

Certainly our wonderful journalists would have told us about NSA crimes... L0oniX Apr 2014 #88

But...but...but...Snowden!!!11111 Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #93

Very well put. nt. NCTraveler Apr 2014 #94

So you think storing copies of metadata is the same as spying. randome Apr 2014 #97

Poll: Majority of Americans Against NSA Spying MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #100

Being 'against spying' is like saying you're against war. randome Apr 2014 #107

I tend to assume the president didn't know before Snowden. AtheistCrusader Apr 2014 #102

For The Record.... gcomeau Apr 2014 #106

hi sarah445 Apr 2014 #129

Hi Sarah MagnumUK Apr 2014 #168

This is the top "greatest thread" as we speak Otelo Apr 2014 #130

kick warrprayer Apr 2014 #131

It is not a proven fact. Progressive dog Apr 2014 #133

It is fact the NSA spied on all Americans. I would not presume Obama was going to state any Jefferson23 Apr 2014 #134

Please be more specific about your 'fact'. randome Apr 2014 #137

It is a material fact, yes, may be a disputed fact by the NSA..that is different. Jefferson23 Apr 2014 #138

One cant see the evidence if their eyes are closed. rhett o rick Apr 2014 #140

People are sometimes uncomfortable with information,the scope of the Snowden leak has been riveting. Jefferson23 Apr 2014 #146

The fact of metadata records obtained via a warrant? randome Apr 2014 #141

You're suggesting the NSA is not disputing spying on Americans? n/t Jefferson23 Apr 2014 #144

A non-equivocal answer on that would be welcome. randome Apr 2014 #151

I asked you a question you are not willing to answer. Jefferson23 Apr 2014 #157

just lurking, but that's a total fail on your part. You can't answer a simple question. uhnope Apr 2014 #164

You sound content..I am happy for you. n/t Jefferson23 Apr 2014 #167

"Why bother with an investigation and trial? He's guilty. I'm sure of it." LanternWaste Apr 2014 #143

Tragically inane. OilemFirchen Apr 2014 #155

how many people here believe this "Sky is Falling" garbage? uhnope Apr 2014 #159

About 300. OilemFirchen Apr 2014 #160

The NSA and the CIA have been doing things they shouldn't have since 1947 (CIA) and 1952 (NSA). Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2014 #158

this is FOX or RW radio-level BS. and Snowden LIED btw uhnope Apr 2014 #162