General Discussion

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)

22. Does require, erm, *reading* the literature in question, though.

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 09:34 AM

Jul 2014

An opinion rendered on a creation of art or literature, derived from "summaries" and the comments of others, is not "literary criticism" of any kind, right?

To take a step further and actually argue a conclusion as to whether something is valuable or worthless or wonderful or despicable, without having actually examined it, cannot be taken seriously or given credence as "criticism" to the slightest degree, can it?

We shake our heads here at would-be critics and censors who want books destroyed or removed or banned, based on what they "heard" they were about all the time. But it's not just the call for a "ban" that we ridicule. It's the entire notion that you can "hear" what something is about and attempt to put forward a valid observation of the work itself based on anything short of having actually examined it.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

176 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Literary criticism is a legitimate intellectual pursuit. Cultural criticism is as well. [View all] kickitup Jul 2014 OP

Kicking and wishing I could kick it a thousand times. But don't hold your breath. The stupid Squinch Jul 2014 #1

You want literary criticism? Here you go brooklynite Jul 2014 #2

Exactly... Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #7

Saying or acting as if sadism is normative behavior is itself a moral judgement of its own. KittyWampus Jul 2014 #8

So you don't have a problem with it, and someone else does. So what is your point? Squinch Jul 2014 #9

Yep. The people criticizing most loudly are those who refuse to read it. mainer Jul 2014 #11

I am an anti intellectual? OMFG. CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #15

Arguing on the basis of ignorance is pretty much anti-intellectual mainer Jul 2014 #24

I read the first and second books (and half the third). joeglow3 Jul 2014 #70

I now have it on the kindle. nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #92

Give it a few chapters before you throw it against the wall. mainer Jul 2014 #104

Just finished chapter number one nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #105

lol--That would baffle me, too. Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #109

Vancouver, WA requires no border passing. n/t pnwmom Jul 2014 #127

It's from Vancouver, WA, to Seattle. Scootaloo Jul 2014 #139

You have it backwards. Some of us refuse to read the whole thing (beyond the free stuff on the web) pnwmom Jul 2014 #125

Not only have they not read a single chapter, they make up stuff about it. mainer Jul 2014 #128

The contract was signed AFTER some non-consensual acts had already occurred. pnwmom Jul 2014 #129

And this would be important exactly why? NanceGreggs Jul 2014 #140

The issue to many is whether this book is glamorizing sexual assault. pnwmom Jul 2014 #141

So if someone pointed out to you ... NanceGreggs Jul 2014 #142

It isn't true. There wasn't consent in the beginning. He was stalking her, pnwmom Jul 2014 #143

As I said ... NanceGreggs Jul 2014 #144

No. A contract like that is not legally binding. Legally, a person can withdraw consent at any time. pnwmom Jul 2014 #145

Not for nuthin' ... NanceGreggs Jul 2014 #150

You assume works of fiction have no affect on people's attitudes. I don't. pnwmom Jul 2014 #151

I don't disagree ... NanceGreggs Jul 2014 #152

No, but to disagree with you is "lunacy" and "madness." pnwmom Jul 2014 #163

I didn't say ... NanceGreggs Jul 2014 #169

I agree with you completely. kickitup Jul 2014 #168

Do you have to read a whole Ayn Rand novel to know you oppose her philosophy? pnwmom Jul 2014 #126

I've read it Scootaloo Jul 2014 #138

Good review... one_voice Jul 2014 #30

I bailed after the first one. PM me with the ending. Btw I agree with the OP. nolabear Jul 2014 #42

Here's what's bothering me.. one_voice Jul 2014 #55

Define rape joeglow3 Jul 2014 #73

No, but there is book rape and real rape. nolabear Jul 2014 #118

Wow, those goal posts moved fast joeglow3 Jul 2014 #122

I'm curious about "normalizes." Should bad things not be mentioned? nolabear Jul 2014 #132

No joeglow3 Jul 2014 #137

Well if that's what it sounds like.. one_voice Jul 2014 #130

I was beginning to think I'd blanked on it. I didn't recall one either. nolabear Jul 2014 #117

What is wrong with discussing the issue of rape in posts on 50 Shades? pnwmom Jul 2014 #124

The fact that it's not what the book is about? brooklynite Jul 2014 #131

Oh, is that a FACT? Or is that a claim that is worthy of a debate? pnwmom Jul 2014 #133

Having READ the book, it's a FACT that... brooklynite Jul 2014 #134

Many feminists disagree that the relationship is consensual, despite pnwmom Jul 2014 #135

That's not really what's going on here. JVS Jul 2014 #3

As someone who actually has a degree in Art Criticism- making these distinctions is being pedantic. KittyWampus Jul 2014 #5

Would you critique a piece of art without ever having seen it? mainer Jul 2014 #28

No one has trivialized or minimized the critiques of Palin's soon-to-be programming... LanternWaste Jul 2014 #174

I think it is the conclusions reached though that people have issues with, not the reviews The Straight Story Jul 2014 #4

People do consume media uncritically a lot of the time el_bryanto Jul 2014 #14

I can respect that The Straight Story Jul 2014 #17

It is true that discussing these issues, along with the swimsuit issue issue, might cause some el_bryanto Jul 2014 #18

Perhaps the goal is to just examine "rape fantasy" to find out what they mean or why we have them kickitup Jul 2014 #170

You do not believe that is what is going on. AngryAmish Jul 2014 #6

Oh, good. Why don't you tell the poster what they DO believe now. I'm sure they are dying to know. Squinch Jul 2014 #10

I imagine the same agenda was found in those who giggled and laughed about the 2011 production of At LanternWaste Jul 2014 #40

I have noticed that the more thoughtful and analytical the post BainsBane Jul 2014 #12

You can't "analyze" something you haven't read though, right? DirkGently Jul 2014 #35

Try following the discussion BainsBane Jul 2014 #44

Yes. As I said. You can't analzye or critique what you haven't read. DirkGently Jul 2014 #48

How about saying that to someone who has actually analyzed it BainsBane Jul 2014 #63

Well, I was talking to the OP until you attacked. DirkGently Jul 2014 #64

This is the subthread in which you responded to me BainsBane Jul 2014 #82

You can discuss the THEME, though. Someone says "I read a book that included sadism" KittyWampus Jul 2014 #52

Determining theme is an analysis itself, though, correct? DirkGently Jul 2014 #57

Well, you're discussing it aren't you? BainsBane Jul 2014 #97

No, I'm discussing what "analysis" is. And what it is not. DirkGently Jul 2014 #99

I actually started reading the book (Gasp I know) nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #100

But other people who have can, and they did. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #58

I don't believe I argued people must "ignore in-depth analyses" DirkGently Jul 2014 #68

Well, you don't know if I've read it or not kickitup Jul 2014 #149

The point the "free speech" brigade MadrasT Jul 2014 #13

For them, it means THEIR freedom of speech BainsBane Jul 2014 #27

I completely agree. distantearlywarning Jul 2014 #16

Thank you! TDale313 Jul 2014 #19

Good post. Thanks. riqster Jul 2014 #20

I would never take a strong stance over a fictional book that I had never read. Quantess Jul 2014 #21

I remember very well some years ago hearing Mother Angelica Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #49

It's an index of an intent to be dishonest. DirkGently Jul 2014 #56

"Last Temptation" is the first thing I think of lately.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2014 #112

What would your philosophy teachers think . . . kickitup Jul 2014 #171

What would my philosophy teacher think about the statement, Quantess Jul 2014 #173

Does require, erm, *reading* the literature in question, though. DirkGently Jul 2014 #22

Provide evidence of one person who has advocated banning BainsBane Jul 2014 #25

I have not seen one person suggesting a ban... Phentex Jul 2014 #31

You both understand it's the NOT READING that's the point, right? DirkGently Jul 2014 #34

Yep. The mean demons in their heads are at it again, making shit up and making them believe it. Squinch Jul 2014 #154

No. I said you can't criticize what you HAVEN'T READ. DirkGently Jul 2014 #33

'Zactly TheSarcastinator Jul 2014 #39

Difficult to admit, anyway, apparently. DirkGently Jul 2014 #43

This message was self-deleted by its author BainsBane Jul 2014 #72

That is not what you said BainsBane Jul 2014 #41

Uh, no. I simply said you can't "analyze" what you haven't read. DirkGently Jul 2014 #45

So who are you talking to? BainsBane Jul 2014 #62

I made the point to the OP. You leapt in to attack. DirkGently Jul 2014 #65

You made the point directly to me, not to the OP BainsBane Jul 2014 #66

I made the point to the OP. You leapt in. What other thread? DirkGently Jul 2014 #75

Here BainsBane Jul 2014 #81

Thank you. Might have put your retraction in the subject line. DirkGently Jul 2014 #83

I didn't confuse you with anyone BainsBane Jul 2014 #84

Pretty sure "There is no critique of something you didn't read" IS the subject DirkGently Jul 2014 #89

No, I do not BainsBane Jul 2014 #95

Glad we still agree on the one thing I actually said. DirkGently Jul 2014 #96

Then use ignore and trash thread BainsBane Jul 2014 #101

Critique of BAD critique is now censorship? DirkGently Jul 2014 #103

Have you read the book? Squinch Jul 2014 #67

Given I don't presume to have a "critique," I am mercifully spared that obligation. DirkGently Jul 2014 #76

And yet, you seem to be critiquing those who object to it. Seems hypocritical to me. Squinch Jul 2014 #78

Isn't the onus on those offering their "analysis?" DirkGently Jul 2014 #79

Well, you don't know if the critiques you are so outraged by are accurate or not. Because Squinch Jul 2014 #146

then why are you in this thread? I honestly do NOT get it. *WHY* are >YOU< in this thread? Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #86

Which words do you not understand? DirkGently Jul 2014 #87

I totally understand your actions ... it is your motivation I am questioning. You do understand the Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #88

A million threads. About a book. No one has. Farking. Read? DirkGently Jul 2014 #93

perhaps you are the biggest Pretender participating in this thread ... Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #94

Do you have a response to the substance of my post? DirkGently Jul 2014 #98

Still trying to decide if it is worthy ... but, since you ask again so earnestly, I will give it Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #102

this is the post that you want me to address, correct ... ? Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #106

I wouldn't say it is legitimate Stuckinthebush Jul 2014 #23

For years I heard snooty librarians say Stephen King's books were dreck mainer Jul 2014 #26

I feel that way about people who say they "hate poetry." But FTR: Even S. King said thusly: WinkyDink Jul 2014 #32

I've read Stephen King. He's one of my favorite authors. His books are very entertaining. Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #111

I read a lot of "high literature," but I LOVE Stephen King. Sometimes he misses, but when he hits, Squinch Jul 2014 #155

I just picked up newcriminal Jul 2014 #165

Haven't read it yet. It's on my list. Thanks for reminding me. Squinch Jul 2014 #166

Sometimes what gets lost, even in this whole kickitup Jul 2014 #167

Apparently to millions! Horror just isn't my genre of choice. WinkyDink Jul 2014 #172

The tapdancing around the NOT READING this is hilarious! DirkGently Jul 2014 #36

+1 JVS Jul 2014 #38

+1 Quantess Jul 2014 #59

You are assuming that everybody offering critical kickitup Jul 2014 #153

Well, he has admitted that HE hasn't read the book, so he wouldn't know if any of the criticisms are Squinch Jul 2014 #157

OK take your point but marions ghost Jul 2014 #107

Spent my career studying and using both. Totally agree. WinkyDink Jul 2014 #29

Book Burning is not Lit-Crit TheSarcastinator Jul 2014 #37

In Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #50

Please link to any post that calls for banning or censorship. As for protesting ANY text, you are Squinch Jul 2014 #69

And book burning isn't happening here. Neither is censorship or banning. So what is it you mean Squinch Jul 2014 #158

I specifically used the word 'intellectual' instead of 'academic' kickitup Jul 2014 #164

Pretentious pursuit* nt conservaphobe Jul 2014 #46

There's a difference between objective observations about culture Avalux Jul 2014 #47

Nor would they presume to "analyze" without reading. DirkGently Jul 2014 #51

What I have seen here is that people assume ... kickitup Jul 2014 #148

Your sexism is showing... kickitup Jul 2014 #156

There is plenty of freaking out on the part of those who are defending the book, too. Are only the Squinch Jul 2014 #159

More-or-less as an aside Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #53

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #54

What I think is just adorable is the stunningly rank hypocrisy of those redqueen Jul 2014 #60

Oh please. How about just defending honest argument? DirkGently Jul 2014 #61

Dirk, you aren't answering my question. Have YOU read the book? Squinch Jul 2014 #71

For Pete's sake, I just saw it. Look up ^ DirkGently Jul 2014 #77

don't be silly! a sex scene makes any book immune to any negative comments! MisterP Jul 2014 #74

I almost wish you had focused solely on cultural criticism. Zenlitened Jul 2014 #80

No. People don't even agree what the "genre" is here. DirkGently Jul 2014 #85

Here (for starters) is where your argument goes wrong: Zenlitened Jul 2014 #113

Oh no. People have flatly stated DirkGently Jul 2014 #114

Sorry, no, you are incorrect in your understanding of what's being stated... Zenlitened Jul 2014 #115

Well you certainly are the one who agrees with that! DirkGently Jul 2014 #119

Dirk, you are hilarious. YOU haven't read the book either. Why are YOU obsessively judging the Squinch Jul 2014 #160

agreed, i think literary critique and pop culture critique is essential in a functional democracy La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2014 #90

How perfectly reasonable and well said...I'm alerting. Zorra Jul 2014 #91

If we're going to discuss rape themes, if only we had a better book to argue about. mainer Jul 2014 #108

Why should we have a better book when this kickitup Jul 2014 #162

Most literary critics..... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2014 #110

Not every would-be literary critic is a member of the morality police, no. Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #116

If you believe that it came from the right BainsBane Jul 2014 #120

On that, you may be right- in fact, I give good odds that you are. Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #121

I guess people like the forbidden BainsBane Jul 2014 #123

kickitup Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #136

I did not mean to post the OP then run . . kickitup Jul 2014 #147

Good for you! thucythucy Jul 2014 #161

I really enjoyed seeing something as ballsy as your other thread on DU Quantess Jul 2014 #176

I must have missed the DRAMA(tm). My wife is a Victorian Lit professor, so +1000. NT Adrahil Jul 2014 #175