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In reply to the discussion: $150,000 for a double knee replacement [View all]Hortensis
(58,785 posts)16. Don't read if you have high blood pressure.
This is from an excellent article in the NY Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/health/for-medical-tourists-simple-math.html?pagewanted=all
The man profiled here spent $13K in Belgium for a hip replacement that would have cost over $100K here. (Note that thanks to Obamacare, his insurer could not now refuse to pay on even a genuine preexisting condition.)
So why are implant list prices so high, and rising by more than 5 percent a year? In the United States, nearly all hip and knee implants sterilized pieces of tooled metal, plastic or ceramics are made by five companies, which some economists describe as a cartel. Manufacturers tweak old models and patent the changes as new products, with ever-bigger price tags.
Generic or foreign-made joint implants have been kept out of the United States by trade policy, patents and an expensive Food and Drug Administration approval process that deters start-ups from entering the market. The companies defend this turf ferociously, said Dr. Peter M. Cram, a physician at the University of Iowa medical school who studies the costs of health care.
Though the five companies make similar models, each cultivates intense brand loyalty through financial ties to surgeons and the use of a different tool kit and operating system for the installation of its products; orthopedists typically stay with the system they learned on. The thousands of hospitals and clinics that purchase implants try to bargain for deep discounts from manufacturers, but they have limited leverage since each buys a relatively small quantity from any one company.
In addition, device makers typically require doctors groups and hospitals to sign nondisclosure agreements about prices, which means institutions do not know what their competitors are paying. This secrecy erodes bargaining power and has allowed a small industry of profit-taking middlemen to flourish: joint implant purchasing consultants, implant billing companies, joint brokers. There are as many as 13 layers of vendors between the physician and the patient for a hip replacement, according to Kate Willhite, a former executive director of the Manitowoc Surgery Center in Wisconsin.
Hospitals and orthopedic clinics typically pay $4,500 to $7,500 for an artificial hip, according to MD Buyline and Orthopedic Network News, which track device pricing. But those numbers balloon with the cost of installation equipment and all the intermediaries fees, including an often hefty hospital markup.
That is why the hip implant for Joe Catugno, a patient at the Hospital for Joint Diseases in New York, accounted for nearly $37,000 of his approximately $100,000 hospital bill; Cigna, his insurer, paid close to $70,000 of the charges. At Mills-Peninsula Health Services in San Mateo, Calif., Susan Foleys artificial knee, which costs about the same as a hip joint, was billed at $26,000 in a total hospital tally of $112,317. The components of Sonja Nelsons hip at Sacred Heart Hospital in Pensacola, Fla., accounted for $30,581 of her $50,935 hospital bill. Insurers negotiate discounts on those charges, and patients have limited responsibility for the differences.
The basic design of artificial joints has not changed for decades. But increased volume about one million knee and hip replacements are performed in the United States annually and competition have not lowered prices, as would typically happen with products like clothes or cars. There are a bunch of implants that are reasonably similar, said James C. Robinson, a health economist at the University of California, Berkeley. That should be great for the consumer, but it isnt.
Generic or foreign-made joint implants have been kept out of the United States by trade policy, patents and an expensive Food and Drug Administration approval process that deters start-ups from entering the market. The companies defend this turf ferociously, said Dr. Peter M. Cram, a physician at the University of Iowa medical school who studies the costs of health care.
Though the five companies make similar models, each cultivates intense brand loyalty through financial ties to surgeons and the use of a different tool kit and operating system for the installation of its products; orthopedists typically stay with the system they learned on. The thousands of hospitals and clinics that purchase implants try to bargain for deep discounts from manufacturers, but they have limited leverage since each buys a relatively small quantity from any one company.
In addition, device makers typically require doctors groups and hospitals to sign nondisclosure agreements about prices, which means institutions do not know what their competitors are paying. This secrecy erodes bargaining power and has allowed a small industry of profit-taking middlemen to flourish: joint implant purchasing consultants, implant billing companies, joint brokers. There are as many as 13 layers of vendors between the physician and the patient for a hip replacement, according to Kate Willhite, a former executive director of the Manitowoc Surgery Center in Wisconsin.
Hospitals and orthopedic clinics typically pay $4,500 to $7,500 for an artificial hip, according to MD Buyline and Orthopedic Network News, which track device pricing. But those numbers balloon with the cost of installation equipment and all the intermediaries fees, including an often hefty hospital markup.
That is why the hip implant for Joe Catugno, a patient at the Hospital for Joint Diseases in New York, accounted for nearly $37,000 of his approximately $100,000 hospital bill; Cigna, his insurer, paid close to $70,000 of the charges. At Mills-Peninsula Health Services in San Mateo, Calif., Susan Foleys artificial knee, which costs about the same as a hip joint, was billed at $26,000 in a total hospital tally of $112,317. The components of Sonja Nelsons hip at Sacred Heart Hospital in Pensacola, Fla., accounted for $30,581 of her $50,935 hospital bill. Insurers negotiate discounts on those charges, and patients have limited responsibility for the differences.
The basic design of artificial joints has not changed for decades. But increased volume about one million knee and hip replacements are performed in the United States annually and competition have not lowered prices, as would typically happen with products like clothes or cars. There are a bunch of implants that are reasonably similar, said James C. Robinson, a health economist at the University of California, Berkeley. That should be great for the consumer, but it isnt.
This is all changing under Obama, of course, and will continue to change if we elect another Democratic president, but way too slowly for individuals who can't come up with a ready $400 much less afford 20-30% coinsurance on a $150K operation.
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The main problem I see with insurance companies isn't their profit margin...
lumberjack_jeff
Apr 2016
#4
Since she is insured, the doc's and hospital together will probably get $20 - $30,000 or so, rest
Hoyt
Apr 2016
#6
That's a real flaw in the system, although if those patients get an attorney the hospital/doc will
Hoyt
Apr 2016
#19
If each knee occupied a different hospital room, you might have had a point. n/t
lumberjack_jeff
Apr 2016
#11
Now that I think about it, I haven't seen a bill for the knees themselves.
lumberjack_jeff
Apr 2016
#13