Religion

mike_c

(37,136 posts)

71. you can't have it both ways....

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 06:31 PM

Apr 2014

You've acknowledged that religion doesn't have protected status, but decried the attitude atheists have toward believers. Which do you want-- unquestioning acceptance for your religious beliefs, or critical examination with its attendant uncomfortable questions?

You've professed christianity in this thread. Would it be fair to say that when other religions assert doctrine that contradicts christian doctrine, you dismiss them as falsehoods because they're "wrong" about those topics? For example, the Hopi people believe that spider grandmother caused a hollow reed to grow into the sky where it emerged in the Grand Canyon. Humans then climbed up the reed and into this world. This seems to directly contradict the Christian creation myth that god created the world in six days from chaos and darkness, and that humans were made in his image in the garden of Eden, etc. Obviously, they cannot both be true.

I'm assuming you accept the christian version and reject the Hopi, but why? What is it about the Hopi version that you find unacceptable?

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Religion a mental illness? [View all] snooper2 Apr 2014 OP

Interesting take on an issue many refuse to face... Tikki Apr 2014 #1

This subject was covered at length recently on DU;a dozen quotes from shrinks say it IS "delusion" Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #128

Please stop this pretense. TM99 Apr 2014 #142

Let people decide for themselves. See the professional quote on post # 153 Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #169

Why? TM99 Apr 2014 #200

This article 1) is in a professional psych journal 2)by the working head of a major LA psych clinic; Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #218

You appear to be a broken record. TM99 Apr 2014 #219

"Consensus" can be herd rule. The article is by a respected practitioner and Med. school teacher Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #222

My last reply to you on this topic. TM99 Apr 2014 #230

All your "answers" were addressed by me in earlier posts on DU. Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #236

I can't play the video. Is there a link to text somewhere? cbayer Apr 2014 #2

no text I don't think she transcribes her videos snooper2 Apr 2014 #3

I will try and watch it when I am in a place with better bandwidth. cbayer Apr 2014 #4

It should be considered such phil89 Apr 2014 #5

I think all the believers I know are very stable and sane people including myself. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #6

I'm a sane believer. 840high Apr 2014 #105

Me too. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #106

So we have here a self-validating belief.... Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #129

Whatever! hrmjustin Apr 2014 #147

So mentally ill people are unstable and insane? MellowDem Apr 2014 #107

I never made any statement on the mentally ill. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #108

Your implication was clear as day... MellowDem Apr 2014 #110

This why I don't bother. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #111

You responded to a post that... MellowDem Apr 2014 #112

You keep going if you like but I think I am done. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #113

Thank goodness... MellowDem Apr 2014 #116

I never implied that and you are putting words in my mouth. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #117

No, your post speaks very clearly for itself MellowDem Apr 2014 #118

My intent was clear. all the believers I know are perfectly sane people. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #119

But the post you replied to... MellowDem Apr 2014 #124

Good night. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #125

The post he was replying to said that believers are mentally ill Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #149

Thank you. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #152

Only if you think the mentally ill are insane... MellowDem Apr 2014 #246

For almost all speakers of the English language Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #247

And they're wrong... MellowDem Apr 2014 #250

So how does "insanity" and "mental illness" differ, in your opinion Fortinbras Armstrong May 2014 #255

Insanity is a severe type of mental illness... MellowDem May 2014 #260

"insanity" is not an illness at all. cbayer May 2014 #261

Then you just contradicted yourself again... MellowDem May 2014 #262

No, I didn't. cbayer May 2014 #263

This is what you said.... MellowDem May 2014 #267

This is a ludicrous argument and more akin to religion than to science. cbayer May 2014 #269

What we consider "disordered" is completely subjective... MellowDem May 2014 #271

Are you not aware of the research being done in the fields of psychiatry cbayer May 2014 #273

Feel free to present any actual evidence you have skepticscott May 2014 #274

It doesn't matter how much research they do... MellowDem May 2014 #278

I don't think you really understand how medical diagnosis are made. cbayer May 2014 #279

What we label a disorder is subjective... MellowDem May 2014 #280

No,it's not. cbayer May 2014 #281

What is the objective source of what is or isn't a pathology... MellowDem May 2014 #282

Sorry, but if you think cancer is a subjective diagnosis, cbayer May 2014 #283

You're the one claiming there is an objective source of mental illness... MellowDem May 2014 #284

Oh, I see. Insanity is a type of mental illness. Fortinbras Armstrong May 2014 #268

All felonies are crimes, but not all crimes are felonies skepticscott May 2014 #272

However, he seemed to be saying is that insanity and mental illness are wholly different Fortinbras Armstrong May 2014 #277

Say what? Both are terms used to describe psychiatric illness. cbayer Apr 2014 #248

By looking at the definition of words? MellowDem Apr 2014 #251

Do you have any credentials at all cbayer Apr 2014 #252

You just said mental illness was synonymous with insanity... MellowDem Apr 2014 #253

I didn't say they were synonymous, but I see our point. cbayer Apr 2014 #254

"Mental disorders" is the term preferred by experts in the field skepticscott May 2014 #275

Ssssshhhhhh! okasha May 2014 #266

You know, when certain people around here start talking about psychiatric disorders, cbayer May 2014 #270

Do you think the professional organizations, like the APA and ApA cbayer Apr 2014 #8

Yes, they'd be honest and consistent then... MellowDem Apr 2014 #109

Oh, my. Welcome to the thread! cbayer Apr 2014 #167

mellow dem has been added to the official shit list. Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #288

So the Bible is offensive, when it says religion, worship, is often "delusion"? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #130

For the record, here is Rev. 13:9-10 (which I guess is what etc. means) cbayer Apr 2014 #168

Typo. Rev. 13.8 ff Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #171

The Bible Clearly Discusses Religious Delusions, On the Road Aug 2014 #285

We do have the following: muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #221

Er, yeah. The word delusion is used in the bible. cbayer Apr 2014 #223

Specifically it is used to warn about false ideas, often, specifically in religion Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #226

Oh, but you are wrong. Only a very few allow it. cbayer Apr 2014 #229

While you are one of those believers who ignore the Bible utterly? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #231

I am not a believer but I have found many parts of the bible useful cbayer Apr 2014 #232

It's saying it about other religions (nt) muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #227

Well, it's talking about false prophets, which could be other religions. cbayer Apr 2014 #228

BG asked "So the Bible is offensive, when it says religion, worship, is often "delusion"?" muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #233

None of the quotes you put up say "religion, worship, is often delusion". cbayer Apr 2014 #235

They call false gods, idolatries and the ideas of false prophets delusions muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #239

I was not aware that ignore did not work on jury duty. cbayer Apr 2014 #240

Um, not quite Warpy Apr 2014 #104

Ah, so the real reason comes out... MellowDem Apr 2014 #114

No, the real reason is that there are no voices in their heads Warpy Apr 2014 #120

The beliefs are still mental illnesses... MellowDem Apr 2014 #126

I know that I am not supposed to decry bigotry from atheists Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #155

? Lots of preachers, and most of the prophets, tell us that God "spoke" to them Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #127

The prophets were usually bonkers. The waves of religious zealotry in Europe Warpy Apr 2014 #210

Its called Faith yeoman6987 Apr 2014 #182

that the DSM makes a specific and explicit exception for religion... mike_c Apr 2014 #7

"likely made to avoid hurting religionists' feelings"? rug Apr 2014 #9

Simple logic. Dr. Pierre & others suggested religious delusion can become normative/accepted Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #131

No, it's listed as an exemption because it's not a mental illness. cbayer Apr 2014 #10

evidence of falsehood.... mike_c Apr 2014 #12

You have no evidence for the non-existence of a god. cbayer Apr 2014 #13

And there you go, right into personal attack instead of discussing the issue. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #17

Evidence nil desperandum Apr 2014 #22

In a situation where there is no evidence to either support or disprove cbayer Apr 2014 #25

Understood nil desperandum Apr 2014 #27

The question you ask in your third paragraph is one for professionals in the cbayer Apr 2014 #35

THANKS nil desperandum Apr 2014 #172

What purpose do these attacks serve? trotsky Apr 2014 #24

You mean the suggestion that believers are mentally ill? el_bryanto Apr 2014 #177

It is sad that they don't get it. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #183

Who made that attack? Go after them. trotsky Apr 2014 #199

Ah - but since you never criticize people for making that argument el_bryanto Apr 2014 #204

Just as you've had opportunities to criticize foul shit in this group, trotsky Apr 2014 #206

If I saw those posts I'd criticize them el_bryanto Apr 2014 #207

I have the person who said them on ignore, so linking directly would be tricky. trotsky Apr 2014 #212

Really? You haven't been reading this thread at all? el_bryanto Apr 2014 #213

A delusion is a false belief. That's all. trotsky Apr 2014 #216

I guess you are right - el_bryanto Apr 2014 #217

Do you even understand how evidence works? skepticscott Apr 2014 #60

Actually the burden of proof falls to they who make the assertion. JNelson6563 Apr 2014 #195

You may have missed the whole point of this subthread. cbayer Apr 2014 #196

Lack evidence isn't why religious belief is not considered by the APA to be delusional Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #14

Agree, there is that as well cbayer Apr 2014 #16

Is that offered as your professional opinion? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #133

So the exact same belief is psychotic delusion in one person and normal in another. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #18

Probably not. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #23

well for example demonic possession. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #30

The distinction isn't really that arbitrary Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #43

So the RCC office of excorcism is staffed by what sort of people exactly? Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #48

Gullible people who have put their trust in an unreliable authority. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #49

So the gullible highly educated priest who terrorizes a child with an exorcism Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #52

Pretty much. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #88

I'll agree with most of that. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #90

Just to confirm - all believers are dishonest and/or thoughtless in your worldview? nt el_bryanto Apr 2014 #179

Consider cults. Where lots of stupid people believe the same shit. Partly social; partly psychology Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #134

I think that's an excellent point... mike_c Apr 2014 #20

You know what this reminds me of? cbayer Apr 2014 #21

Deja vu all over again. okasha Apr 2014 #123

No shit. cbayer Apr 2014 #164

This is my takeaway from these discussions, also. stone space Aug 2014 #286

People that want to convert or de-convert are equally noxious. cbayer Aug 2014 #287

Religious delusion is already considered to be pathological by the APA Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #115

Evidence: we cited a half dozen psychiatrists including Freud, saying "all religion is delusion" Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #132

Hey, BG. There are at least 3 other like minded people in this thread. cbayer Apr 2014 #170

Religious groups often exclude those who differ. By shunning; faction; censorship; execution Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #173

Hmmmm el_bryanto Apr 2014 #184

What do you know! Bigots tend to do that, religious or not. cbayer Apr 2014 #187

That's called "shunning" and "Denial." Quite common in religious communities Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #189

Do you have such evidence? AlbertCat May 2014 #256

No, that is not evidence. cbayer May 2014 #257

despite clear evidence that it is not. AlbertCat May 2014 #258

The evidence can be found in the professional journals of the experts cbayer May 2014 #259

You apparently don't understand science, then skepticscott May 2014 #264

Well, isn't that special. Iggo Apr 2014 #11

her theory that all adults make a choice about religious belief is not compelling. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #15

I think in the modern world it is more about "fitting in" snooper2 Apr 2014 #19

Ok I am a Christian. Am I ill for believing in God? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #26

you tell me.... mike_c Apr 2014 #28

Well I asked. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #29

the irony is that I am EASILY converted.... mike_c Apr 2014 #31

I am not here to convert you and I am not delusional or ill in any way. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #32

But you are ill, justin! cbayer Apr 2014 #36

I hate it when people say we are deluded or ill. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #39

There is everything to hate about it. I hate it too. cbayer Apr 2014 #41

Post removed Post removed Apr 2014 #136

Maybe it's not the deity's job to show himself/herself/itself to YOU. Common Sense Party Apr 2014 #51

Not what the Bible said Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #135

I wanted to let you know that I quoted you in another thread. cbayer Apr 2014 #249

Oh, dear. I must be in trouble again. Common Sense Party May 2014 #265

I think the proper question here is whether LTX Apr 2014 #91

I agree with you for the most part.... mike_c Apr 2014 #97

Oh, dear. Does that mean you might be at an evolutionary disadvantage. cbayer Apr 2014 #174

Not this bullshit again! TM99 Apr 2014 #33

Yeah it gets like a broken record after awhile. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #34

Well, not to diagnose, but perseverance seems to be a problem. rug Apr 2014 #37

Who has persevered in the face of contrary facts, more than Christians? 2,000 years of perseverance Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #137

And what's really hilarious is that the person in the video says that it's not. cbayer Apr 2014 #38

It must be so annoying when somebody starts a discussion you don't approve of. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #47

c'mon cbayer, that's just lame.... mike_c Apr 2014 #55

No, mike_c, what is lame is that someone who apparently considers themselves cbayer Apr 2014 #57

Did you even watch the video? snooper2 Apr 2014 #161

Of course, I watched it. TM99 Apr 2014 #197

no more than Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #40

Can't watch the video Prophet 451 Apr 2014 #42

It's a hateful tactic born of privilege and nourished in the self-perception of rationality. rug Apr 2014 #44

Do you feel that labelling any delusion as mental illness is wrong, or a hateful tactic? phil89 Apr 2014 #54

Believing in God is not a mental illness. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #56

The bible was written by people with mental illness. Obsession with numbers, cleanliness, rituals, phil89 Apr 2014 #66

How do you know? did you talk to them? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #68

The "Were you there" argument. Do I need to have been? phil89 Apr 2014 #76

Well when you go through time you let me know how it went. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #78

Luckily I don't need to...the evidence is right there phil89 Apr 2014 #79

which parts are written by mentally ill people? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #80

You can't prove that they were not mentally ill. cleanhippie Apr 2014 #190

Ken Ham has joined the thread? pokerfan Apr 2014 #241

So when they saw God and demons, and talked to them? And saw giant miracles? That's all OK with you? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #139

I believe in some of those miracles. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #143

How about the other ones? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #146

Some I believe are allegorical. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #148

Some things in religion are allegorical ... meaning not entirely, literally true Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #156

You understand I and others find this insulting. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #157

The Bible itself often said much of religion is delusional Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #158

That is not the same thing and you know it. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #159

I am absolutely honest when I suggest that Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #160

I have no doubt you are being honest. that is not in question. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #162

So if Jesus and God said there are often false things in religion ... Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #165

Your talking about human beings and very human institutions so yes. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #166

God often used the word "delusion" to warn about false things in religion. Was God insulting people Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #175

Thats all nice and good but I think the motives are different. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #176

My motives are exactly the same Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #178

I thinks Gods motives wrre different. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #181

I think Gods motive was to correct bad things in religion; that is also my motive Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #188

What do you want to correct about religion? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #191

Many things are wrong. But first? The belief in literal physical miracles, "all" we "ask." Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #192

Well I am not going to give up my belief in the miracles of the bible because it offends or bothers hrmjustin Apr 2014 #194

Yet you want others to give up certain behaviors because they offend or bother you. Dark n Stormy Knight Apr 2014 #203

What behaviors do I want people to give up? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #205

Why are you telling other poster's that their beliefs are insulting or offensive if not because you Dark n Stormy Knight Apr 2014 #214

I have decided to step away from this room for awhile. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #215

OMG! Not only are you a mental health professional able to diagnosis cbayer Apr 2014 #69

. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #70

It's common sense. And I can cite a source if you like, he makes the argument quite well. phil89 Apr 2014 #75

Sorry, psychiatry, psychology and the diagnosis and treatment of psychiatric disorders cbayer Apr 2014 #82

do you mind if I inquire about YOUR credentials, cbayer.... mike_c Apr 2014 #94

Yes, I am completely qualified, but it doesn't really matter, because I am not cbayer Apr 2014 #163

Has Ms. cbayer done a residency in Psychology? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #185

Sapolsky certainly does assert that the authors of the bible phil89 Apr 2014 #242

Be he right or wrong, he's got the credentials to offer an opinion. cbayer Apr 2014 #244

Common sense? Common sense that the bible writters were mentally ill? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #83

Is Ms. cbayer a professional psychologist? There are many quoted here who contradict her. Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #140

No they do not. TM99 Apr 2014 #145

Are direct quotes from professional journals trolling? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #154

They are when misunderstood TM99 Apr 2014 #202

See posts 218, 153, etc. Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #220

Is this an attempt at satire? n/t LTX Apr 2014 #96

OMG! How, like AWESOME! !!! okasha Apr 2014 #103

So when the ancients saw God and the devil, and talking snakes,we cannot be sure anything was wrong? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #141

See, there it is - a label. rug Apr 2014 #93

Wrong. phil89 Apr 2014 #243

Of course it's an actual insult. rug Apr 2014 #245

then for pete's sake quit whining about it and dispel the "bullshit...." mike_c Apr 2014 #58

no one here said religion is a protected activity. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #62

then why is it a "hateful tactic" to question the obvious parallel... mike_c Apr 2014 #63

I can't speak for rug but considering the attitude displayed in this thread towards hrmjustin Apr 2014 #64

you can't have it both ways.... mike_c Apr 2014 #71

I would like to be respected and not called things like ill or deluded. NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #77

well look, I'm asking for you to share your thoughts, and I'm listening respectfully.... mike_c Apr 2014 #84

Respectfully? calling people who are religious deluded or socially ill is respectful? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #86

ok, I apologize for the obtuse questions.... mike_c Apr 2014 #89

Well we all don't kill one another. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #92

please-- tell it to the dead, the maimed, the dispossessed, and the disenfranchised.... mike_c Apr 2014 #95

Yeah that is what I expected. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #98

"People experience the divine in different ways." okasha Apr 2014 #121

Yes that is how I see it. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #122

Though various religions often go to war with each other, over religion? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #144

Did you read response #42? What do you have to say to that? cbayer Apr 2014 #67

nothing in particular.... mike_c Apr 2014 #73

Broad brush statements. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #81

which ones to you object to? mike_c Apr 2014 #85

I object to you broad brush statment. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #87

But clearly most religious people here are even explicitly uncomfortable with it.... Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #150

I'm uncomfortable with a floating turd in a swimming pool/ rug Apr 2014 #209

Well, mike, I'm not one to whine. rug Apr 2014 #99

you're right.... mike_c Apr 2014 #100

Here: rug Apr 2014 #102

Snippish doesn't even come close to describing how you come off. cbayer Apr 2014 #180

But we CAN call mentally ill people mentally ill? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #151

Wow, what a profound and personal post. cbayer Apr 2014 #45

Nobody is claiming anything much more than "some religious beliefs are delusions". Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #53

Though you are not saying it, Freud said "all religion is delusion"; Dr. Pierre, Journ. Psych. Prac. Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #153

Thank you. Nothing can trump first hand experience. Kudos, Prophet 451. pinto Apr 2014 #101

That's the video's main point. But look up socially-acquired psychosis Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #138

No. LeftishBrit Apr 2014 #46

opinions and behaviors are pathologized all the time. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #50

Thaks, LB. I think you bring up some excellent points and some of cbayer Apr 2014 #72

LOL (nt) pinto Apr 2014 #59

You've got that right. cbayer Apr 2014 #61

Why did you leave the the phrase with "No" out of your c & p of this? cbayer Apr 2014 #65

since you've chosen to make such a point of this... mike_c Apr 2014 #74

It depends (and in my opinion), on how far from reality your religion takes you. PDJane Apr 2014 #186

I think her accent is beautiful, she is Romanian you know snooper2 Apr 2014 #193

So, why did you editorialize her title line and leave out the phrase including the word "No"? cbayer Apr 2014 #198

I don't know WTF you are going on about... snooper2 Apr 2014 #201

No, the title of her video, from her own web site, is: cbayer Apr 2014 #208

Took it straight from YouTube where I am subscribed to her, she has 96K subscribers snooper2 Apr 2014 #211

Were you aware that DU covered essentially this same subject very recently? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #224

are you questioning my authorita! snooper2 Apr 2014 #225

I don't think you are an undercover agent for the NSA, snooper, cbayer Apr 2014 #234

I thought this would get like 6 replies and sink, what you don't know right? snooper2 Apr 2014 #237

Not only do I not think it is a mental illness, I am vehemently opposed to cbayer Apr 2014 #238

I have learned that arguing religion is less rewarding than randys1 May 2014 #276