Rising Sun for Electric Cars

[kristopher]

"Earth Day 2008 is a time to ask: Is my sustainability work consonant with the gravity of the climate crisis and the urgency of the ecological challenges we face?

At Southern New Hampshire University (SNHU), as a complement to our work on renewable energy hedges, we are working to transform energy use on campus. One project underway is a system of grid-tied electric vehicles (Vehicle to Grid or V2G) combined with a solar photovoltaic charging system and smart computer control.

The V2G plug-in hybrids and electric vehicles will replace traditional fossil fuel cars on campus and become an economic source of power for the electric grid during peak times. V2G cars can help balance the system load, reduce storage requirements, and reduce the need for fossil fuel baseload plants.

Hybrids and electric vehicles can now use lithium ion batteries to become V2G plug-ins, either as original equipment or as supplementary aftermarket power modules. Lightweight lithium ion batteries have greater power density and are capable of thousands of charge cycles, making them suited to the grid's fluctuating need for power.


...The parking lot PV system will feed the grid directly, or charge the vehicle batteries. The vehicles will make money selling power into the grid during high load conditions by responding to five-minute spot market price signals above, for example, $.25/kwh. In the future, our V2G cars will act as power sources, making money for us and keeping the grid in balance.

A V2G car with fully charged batteries (4 kilowatt hour capacity) could provide the grid 10 kW of power for 12 minutes (50 percent maximum discharge). Five million parked cars could provide 1,000 megawatts of power for an hour during peak times with a 2 kW total discharge. 1,000 MW is the size of a very large baseload coal or nuclear plant. Overall, vehicles optimized for V2G power could provide even more energy into the grid. In 2001, there were 230 million cars, trucks, and buses in the United States...."

http://www.policyinnovations.org/ideas/innovations/data/000039

[NJmaverick]

1. Plug in hybrids are the immediate solution

eventually being replaced by long range, quick charge electric cars.

[DCKit]

2. Storage, storage, storage.

I saw on "The Future Car" last night that the Li-ion batteries for the Tesla cost ~$30K. Either the price needs to come down or we need a better, cheaper and longer lasting (lifetime) way of storing energy. Then again, the Tesla is supposed to have a range of 200 miles/charge. I don't know anyone who needs that kind of range in a commuter car.

The compressed air cars aren't bad either.

[NJmaverick]

3. plug in hybrids gives you the best of both worlds

You get to burn little or no fuel on routine commuting, and still be able to have the unlimited range (with 5-10 minute fuel stops) of a gasoline powered vehicle.

[kestrel91316]

8. My commute is under 5 miles one way. If I had a pluggable hybrid

I would only rarely actually use gas, lol. I would plug it in at my clinic (there's an outlet out back) because there's no outlet in the apartment parking area. Would work fine.

[kristopher]

5. That proplem is entirely a function of economy of scale.

When they are geared to produced LIon batteries for the entire transportation sector, the per unit price is expected to be very low.

Factories cost money, and people don't spend that money without believing there is going to be a market. The field testing phase should provide the performance data to allow decisions on capital investment, IMO.

[Finishline42]

14. Economy of scale - what if the Post Office retro-fitted most of those boxy vans

Economy of scale - what if the Post Office retro-fitted most of those boxy vans into EV's? I doubt most of them travel over 50 miles a day and there's plenty of room for batteries and they re-charge at night - off peak.

This is an area where government could make the commitment and the market could respond with the investment require to make it affordable for us.

[tinrobot]

6. The 65mph Think has a 110 mile range for $25K

It will be available in the US starting next year. Might be the perfect commuter car.

http://www.think.no/think/content/view/full/290

[NJmaverick]

9. The problem, as I see it, with pure electrics

Is few people can or want a pure commuter car. For $25K they want a flexible vehicle that can take them as far as they want to go.

[tinrobot]

12. True, but even if only a fraction of people buy them...

...it's still that many more gas guzzlers off the road. Plus, as more people buy electrics, prices will go down, technology will improve, and people will accept them more.

[kristopher]

17. You are absolutely correct.

And that is what we are talking about delivering. The article is focused on a university campus experiment with the concept of trading electricity back and forth between the grid operator, and the owner of the car. This particular project isn't focused on range, but others are. One study is looking at two configurations, one for range and one for local commuting.

I think you point is worth restating - people currently select a car based on meeting "occasional" needs every bit as much (if not more) than meeting day to day needs. But I think deployment of the technology doesn't have to address all these needs at once. For the time being, the utilities and governments are requiring added investment in manufacturing capacity, then the commuter market, then the broader more general market.

Hopefully during that time, public transport will also start playing a more important role than now.

[NJmaverick]

19. Well I envision PHs being charged over night, when demand is low

which would greatly lessen the demand on the existing electric grid. Plus recharging stations would be perfect for small scale solar and wind projects.

[Finishline42]

20. What about what the system that Renault/Nissan is working on for Israel?

What about what the system that Renault/Nissan is working on for Israel? They will have charge stations where you would go in and exchange battery packs in about the same time as a fill up.

[kristopher]

4. V2G fleets are being planned by utilities

V2G fleets are being planned by utilities, several state governments and some commuter rail services. All of these entities have a stake in reducing the costs of electricity and at the same time they will be doing the serious field testing required before full scale production can begin. A large part of the research focuses on rapid recharge. Lithium ion has the capacity for about an 80% recharge in about 15 minutes as it currently stands.
However the target capacity of the batteries is about 20kWh, which is a lot of juice to pump in 10-15 minutes.

[Marblehead]

7. air car

no batteries, long range http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqpGZv0YT4

[IDemo]

21. No V2G capabilities, not as efficient as an electric car

[NickB79]

10. I'd still like to know how long it would take for EV/PHEV's to become significant

On National Public Radio a few days ago, it reported that hybrid vehicle sales have skyrocketed due to high oil prices. There are currently 350,000+ hybrids on the road. It then went on to say that they still compromise ~2% of all vehicles on the road in the US alone. Worldwide, they aren't even noticeable statistically.

I thought to myself, "That's odd, the Toyota Prius has been available for 7 years now, and several other auto manufacturers have also been producing hybrids for 5 years or more."

If it has taken 7 years to reach only 2% domestically with hybrid vehicles, how long will it take to scale up to a level that might make a meaningful impact? When will we see 5 million EV vehicles on the road so that we can displace just one coal-fired plant?

[kristopher]

11. It can happen pretty fast, actually.

Assembly facilities don't have to be built, just modified. And the actual assembly is simpler than an internal combustion engine auto.

We need to ramp up component manufacturing.

We need to upgrade the grid to handle the load and the small scale exchange of electricity.

We need to deploy renewables like wind and solar to meet the increased demand.

Much of that is going on now.

On the other side of the coin, the demand is not going away. These fuel prices look to be permanent.

Most of the personal transportation fleet rotates over about 7 years, with near total rotation within 10.

So given that the gas prices just laid the groundwork for the rest to occur, we will have to see what happens.
I would make the wild ass guess that by 2020 there is reason to believe that an automobile with internal combustion engine is going to be a fairly rare thing.

I will also make a prediction - IF the deployment goes something like above, the role of coal will also be largely diminished. That's because all the grid enhancements that incorporate V2G also make the grid more friendly to the variability of wind and solar etc.

[NickB79]

16. I wonder how much of a monkeywrench a global recession would throw into that timeline. nt

[kristopher]

18. Think of Roosevelt and the depression.

It 'electrified' the nation. (couldn't resist the pun, sorry)

[NJmaverick]

13. Really it's the big automakers that are holding things back

They offer so few hybrids and put virtually no time or effort into marketing them. If they made a concerted effort, the sales would sky rocket and in 2 or 3 years it could easily be 5-10% (or more).

[Finishline42]

15. I think all of Toyota's hybrid cars are mfg in Japan, but

they have plans to expand the Georgetown KY plant to build them there. 200,000 per year is the volume they are shooting for.