For those of you who keep wishing gasoline prices will go higher just on principle....

[Skidmore]

how the hell do you expect people on fixed incomes and who earn low wages to get to and from their jobs? How do expect them to afford food, clothing, or any other goods. Damn it. I'm just really steamed right now. I came back from driving 20 miles to the nearest grocery store today. AND DON'T EVEN START on giving me condescending reasons why I should move into the blighted burbs or a city because it would just make things so much better. Today, a head of lettuce was $1.20, milk was $3.07 a gallon, apples are $1.80 a pound, 5 lbs. potatoes were nearly $5.00. And this is in rural America, where we ostensibly grow stuff to eat. Now, our little community is full of elderly people, mostly living on Social Security and personal savings. We have young people who can't find work beyond driving 20+ miles to they can work in McDonalds or Walmart or Target at some shit job with no future. Their parents are driving equal distances and praying that their place of employment doesn't close or downsize, outsource their jobs, or steal what little retirement plans they have, or take away their health insurance.

We grow some of our own food each year and I've cut out a lot of treats and complicated recipes with more expensive ingredients (e.g., lasagna has become a semi annual event--it's an expensive dish to make). We combine errands to save gas. We have had flourescent bulbs for years now. We skimp and skimp and skimp, and on the one hand, we have the energy gluttons pigging it up and on the other the rabid environmentalists wishing to dish out more pain just to prove their moral superiority. Well, I'm sick and disgusted with both groups right now. I can't decide who is more obnoxious. Those who would line their pockets based on craven corporate greed by insisting everyone needs to eat a certain way, only use certain products, and limit choice by manipulating the markets to eliminate competition. Or those who would sit back and sneer at people who have can't afford to avail themselves the toney exclusivity of the green end of the market right now (and accessing that market is being treated like joining a spa right now). I can't afford to pay $6 for a gallon of milk, and not many others around here can either.

In the meantime, where are the freakin' consumer strikes--yes, picket lines in front of the stores and gas stations. This bullshit about free markets setting the prices is just that--bullshit. It only works when you don't have the markets rigged in favor of the big guy or the company. The consumer doesn't stand a chance.

We've done a lot to change our consumption patterns over the past decade and recycle everything. So don't give me lectures about what an irresponsible consumer I am. I know there are many more out there who are suffering right now just trying to tread water. AND IT IS GETTING WORSE!

[Deja Q]

1. Not just dead end jobs of death, try emigrating to another country.

Unlike people coming in to America, other countries have huge barriers - never mind they need to take care of their own people first.

If we're to become globalized, we need a one world government and stop all the nonsense and then get on with life again, so we can prosper. Now if there are better solutions, I'm more than happy to hear them.

[Greyhound]

31. Be careful what you wish for, you will probably get it.

One World Government is exactly where all of this is leading. Four "Unions", American, European, Asian, and African. It has been in the works for decades and will, in all likelihood, be imposed on us within the next generation.

[conspirator]

46. The more centralized the power, the bigger threat of tyranny. That's why I am anarchist n/t

[bonito]

2. Well said

Revealing an elephant in the room.

[Jack Bone]

3. Recommended

[lynnertic]

4. Maybe some of you oldsters can hire a couple of unemployed youngsters

to carpool you guys around. You could maybe save gas and money that way.

Good luck finding a solution to your problem. As you know, we're here to help in the way that we can.

I hear your fear and anger, but please don't beat up on us. We're on your side, and we're getting shafted too.

No matter how gas prices are 'fixed' we all have to do something different now, because we just can't keep burning oil and expect to have a nice life too.

[777999]

5. yep

agree 100%

[hobbit709]

6. Same here

My wife and I live on less than 30K/yr. We own a 15 year old truck and a 21 year old car. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't buy a new car of any kind, much less a hybrid. My wife has to drive half way across Austin to get to work when she used to drive about 2 miles, in Sept. supposedly the new/old place will reopen and that will take about 75 miles a week off our driving. We don't go out much anymore because most of our formerly disposable income has become living expense income. It's easy to talk about saving money, buying green and avoiding Walmart when you have to money to do so. We consider Walmart an upscale shopping experience, we usually hit the dollar stores and the thrift shops.

[OlderButWiser]

7. That's the sign of a...

...tough economy.

"We consider Walmart an upscale shopping experience"

I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you.

[Skidmore]

8. Yes, exactly what I'm talking about.

It's not because we aren't being prudent or frugal or presuming to consume top shelf products or to consume in excess. We can't afford it. We can't afford to live in a designer world where every product has to be made special because some movie star or model needs to market their name. We can't afford it because the jobs that are left do not support a basic life style.

I hear you. Our 20 year old car bit the dust a couple of months ago and we had to dive into our savings to buy a different one. It's only 6 years old but at least if it breaks down parts for it are still on the market. We need to get to work, even if it is to the crappy jobs.

These are the realities. You can stop living life because their is an ideological struggle going on.

[populistdriven]

9. Dow Jones Crosses 14,000 Mark

You can thank the national media.

NewsMax.com Wires
Tuesday, July 17, 2007

NEW YORK -- The Dow Jones industrial average swept past 14,000 for the first time Tuesday, rising on a relatively mild inflation report and better-than-expected profit reports from blue chip names including Coca-Cola Co. and Merrill Lynch & Co.

The stock market's best-known indicator crossed 14,000 in the first half-hour of trading, having taken just 57 trading days to make the trip from 13,000.

Stocks have risen fairly steadily since the spring amid a continuum of buyout news and evidence that despite higher fuel prices and the ongoing problems in the housing market and mortgage lending industry, consumers are spending and companies remain optimistic about the future. With the Federal Reserve ever vigilant about inflation, any news that prices are rising at a moderate pace has added to the market's momentum, as it did Tuesday.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/7/17/100302.shtml?s=br

_____________________________________


People won't rage in the streets because they are kept in the dark by propaganda. No national media outlet EVER reports the DOW is still down significantly from 2000 adjusted for inflation. And they REFUSE to report how dramatically the cost of living is skyrocketing while inflation adjusted wages are continuously dropping.

http://www.itulip.com/realdow.htm

[Skidmore]

10. I don't think most people understand or pay attention to the markets,

even those with retirement plans invested in the market.

I think people don't rage because they have been beaten down. They perceive of themselves as being helpless and can't stare down an unseeing and uncaring system. And then we have elected representatives who don't act on the individuals behalf either. If you scream and no one hears you above the cocktail party chatter, you learn to suffer in silence.

[Vilis Veritas]

11. "If you scream and no one hears you above the cocktail party chatter"

Dead on.

Peace.

[kestrel91316]

14. "the DOW is still down significantly from 2000 adjusted for inflation"

These words bear much LOUD repeating.

[Phrogman]

36. The war spending is the only thing holding it together me thinks

where would the stock market be at without the billions being reinvested by the MIC?

[VP505]

12. I would like to add that

it really chaps my a** when people try to compare our gasoline prices and life style to Europe. They say thing like "oh, you shouldn't complain, you only pay x amount a gal and in Europe they pay x amount more". Its like apples and oranges to me, they (Europeans) live much differently then we do, public transport is inexpensive and readily available and there are too many other difference to be making that comparison, IMO.

[bullwinkle428]

19. Don't forget about the HUGE difference between the health-care policies

when comparing the U.S. and European countries!

Great illustration of the phrase "you get what you pay for"!

[SayWhatYo]

25. Also, isn't the majority of that price from taxes?

If so, then wouldn't they ultimately get some sort of benefit from it?

[KitSileya]

34. That's for sure!

I just came back (yesterday) from an extended stay just outside DC, and it again struck me how differently American infrastructure is. Partly it's because you simply weren't forced to crowd together as we were in Europe. You are very dependent on cars - and consequently do not think anything of driving 20-30 miles or more to get to a restaurant. In Norway, we would drive perhaps 5-7 miles at most (except in Northern Noway, which is an exception to everything.) The houses too - in most cases you simply build everything on one story, whereas in Norway, we definitely would have made a 3-bedroom house 2 stories high, as it would be simpler to heat, while of your one-story house is simpler to cool, I expect. We crowd together because of topography, climate, and history (we built most of our cities and towns way before the time of the car, when travelling meant 15-20 miles on a good day on a horse.) Even today, a day's driving is less than in the US, because we have the same speed limits as you, but we do them in kilometers, rather than miles (top speed 80 kilometers an hour is 50mph.)

In Norway, we pay over 2 dollars a liter for gas (ca $8 a gallon) but we have public transport. (I don't own a car, nor do I have a driver's licence, at 32 years old.) We have more expensive food, but we don't have to pay for health insurance. We have a higher minimum wage (translates to roughly $16/hr,) and less of a spread on salaries (the yearly salary at minimum wage is more than half what I earn as a top-educated teacher of 4 years standing.)

We have to import a lot of food, so it's more expensive, but at the same time, the government subsidizes milk to ensure it's cheap enough to buy (about $1.5 a liter - $5.5 a gallon - but only 1/10th of an hour's pay at minimum wage.)

Americans are really on the slippery slope towards third world poverty, and have been since the Republicans took power in the eighties.

[PaulaFarrell]

47. Public transport is NOT inexpensive in England

but gas prices are still high. People are just used to it.

[troubleinwinter]

13. Another story of how gasoline prices effect Americans

A few weeks ago, I returned from several days of visiting Navajo friends on the reservation.

Every day, a family member must drive perhaps an hour each way over dirt roads to the trading post to fill a 100 gallon plastic tank with water for their small sheep flocks. The small flocks are about 6-10, as there isn't much forage. They are used for food and wool to weave rugs.

One of my friends said, "When gas goes up, we feel it first. We have to go a long way every day for water to live. When gas goes up, our income goes down because the tourists who buy rugs and turquoise don't come here anymore." The few with jobs or artisan stands are dependent on tourism.

I visited one elder woman whose grandsons drive over an hour and a half each way over winding steep dirt roads every day to bring water for her and her animals. For the most part, she eats fry bread (flour & water fried in oil), corn she grows, and the mutton she raises. Squash only if a few good rains come.

A majority of the students at the high school do not have electricity or water at home.

They recycle everything that is anything, every scrap of fabric, every morsel of food. They don't use paper towels or have dozens of plastic pint Evian bottles. They have no "waste", there is no garbage service. Food scraps are for the animals. For many of them, the only toiletries such as soap and shampoo are what we bring once a year. Soap wrappers are reused to wrap other things, and shampoo bottles hold dyes for wool.

I spent some time here, at Rose's home. There is no garbage can. What would it hold?



What can these people cut back on when gas prices rise? They cut back on income.

A note: Our Republican SoS and US Supreme Court disenfranchised many of these 60,000 American Navajo registered voters last year, by requiring photo ID for voting... because ya know, "all those 'illegals' are trying to vote". The Navajo traditionally tend Dem, and both sides agree that it was the Navajo vote that gave us our Dem governor in 2002, so they had to be cut off.

(They used to have water closer to home, but it is all poisoned from gov't. uranium mining in the 50's and 60's and is deadly to animals and humans.)

[Toots]

15. If life is so tough for a rich American how do you think the other 90% of the world feels?

You don't have a glimmer. People in India or China or Sudan just wish they had milk or lettuce at any price. Or a fancy big automobile to ride around in. Most by a large majority don't even own an automobile or even have indoor plumbing. Yep you have it so very bad by having the cheapest gasoline in the world...

[Skidmore]

16. Oh, but I do have a glimmer. I've lived overseas, and

I've seen some crushing poverty. Most of the world lives the way it does, and the poor of America live they way they must because of our media driven, corporate driven lifestyles.

I'd like to see peoples everywhere stand up and fight for equity. What if people would just join together and refuse to fight the goddamned wars and refuse to be held hostage to these large companies or crazed political factions?

[terisan]

17. and there is difference between high gas prices due to taxes & that due to windfall profits.

If gas is heavily taxed and the money went to research for alternative fuels or mass transportation it might be useful but I think most of our increases just go to oil companies who then are free to invest elsewhere or gobble up other businesses.

[Toasterlad]

18. Uh...Who is Wishing That?

[dickthegrouch]

20. Gas is $7.35 per gallon in the UK currently

When you make all the compensations for prices quoted in liters rather than US gallons and the current exchange rate, I paid $7.35 per gallon last week in London. A full tank in my tiny car cost $86.00.

Europeans have been paying much higher taxes on gas for many years. And when you consider that disposable income in many European countries is far less than that in the US, the relative price is even higher.

However, the roads don't have potholes and are a pleasure to drive on, unlike northern California's (6th largest economy in the world) dirt tracks like highway 101.

TAX cuts are hurting all of us to a degree that most are completely unaware of. The pure waste of money in Iraq, Afghanistan is responsible for all of this. It would be infinitely cheaper to give every man, woman and child in Iran $2000 (Two years pay) and get out. We'd engender far more good will, and quit wasting young lives, into the bargain.

I feel for Skidmore's pain and having to survive on your own financial decisions (the results of which are about as predictable, when all is said and done, as the next earthquake), is about as cruel a way to treat people as I can possibly imagine.

The government-set poverty level is a cruel joke.

Unemployment compensation is a cruel joke.

Reduced taxes may fuel (!) instant gratification and the complete lie that consumerism will cure all, but today's 20-somethings (and maybe even 40-somethings) will hate us when they retire for our culture of waste and debt.

If the government made better decisions about what to spend our taxes on and did a better job of telling us what it spends on, my guess is that we'd all be happier paying them.

I think many of us are scared that we'll run out of money in old age. Thanks to Skidmore for trying to educate us on what we have to look forward to if we continue our (personal and public) consumption (waste).

Dick

[razzleberry]

43. tax on jet fuel for international flight, zero

yet all I hear, is how gasoline
taxes are to low

[Missy Vixen]

21. Thank you for such a thoughtful post

>I can't decide who is more obnoxious.<

I'm with you.

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and dish it out, isn't it?

We also live in a rural area. We bought here seven years ago when we got priced out of Redmond, WA (home of Microsoft). It's amazing to me how fast prices have risen on food in even the last six months. I know there are poor in our community, and I can't even imagine how their lives must be right now.

Julie

[Beelzebud]

22. Unfortunately, Republicans don't have a monopoly on ppl that say "fuck the poor".

[Skidmore]

26. And we have people who tell us to just keep voting for more of the

just because at least they are not Republics. I am not blind and I can see. Both sides of the coin have the same face.

[TahitiNut]

23. The alternative is rationing.

The sophomoric free-market 'theory' that increased prices (and increased profits) will result in new producers entering the market and thereby meeting the demand is almost nowhere belied as thoroughly as with gasoline pricing. When the obscene profits are apologized as a control on consumption I'm left a bit verklempt. Such a rationalization is a sociological and economic train-wreck.

The public is so thoroughly brain-washed that the mere mention of gasoline rationing is met with knee-jerk resistance ... as though the "freedom to enrich the monopolists" is dearly-held. Clearly, rationing would result in a gray market that, to some degree, would have a more equitable econmic impact ... but God forbid Exxon Mobil not be able to double or even triple their enormous profits.

[Mojorabbit]

24. If you set aside

the fixing of gas prices and think ahead if peak oil is really here then things are only going to get worse in the years to come. It doesn't seem as if the govt is doing much in the way of planning for it.

[Gregorian]

27. This post is a perfect example of how we've boxed ourselves into a corner.

And why we simply are not going to change with our present system. I admit that for at least 20 years I have been one who has been dearly wishing for gas to be the price that reflects it's value for us. And I do agree with the original post here. And thank DU for giving me that perspective over the year of learning I've done here.

My main point is that at this time we actually have to kill the planet in order to survive. I was thinking about horses as transportation, this morning. I imagined a post titled "I don't want a Prius. I want a horse." But the realization sets in that we are unable to go back. Who has land? Would it even be possible?

There is a solution. Not unnecessarily for six billion people. That, I doubt. Not from an energy standpoint as much as other problems like water and food and materials. And just plain livability.

I'm not addressing an answer. It may just be that we're going to need to suffer in order to change in time to survive. Or maybe a good leader will inspire people to change. Or even alter the economic infrastructure to make it change.

But one thing is true, you're right. At this time, to deny people mobility in the way that we are currently use to is unfair.

I get so angry when I find an old 1920 newspaper in an old house, and I see how groceries were actually delivered to people. Or seeing towns that had trollies that are no longer. There are some solutions.

Look, our government is subsidizing all kinds of things that do not benefit us. We must demand that they subsidize our wellbeing.

[hootinholler]

28. But the economy is strong!

Just in case: :sarcasm:


-Hoot

[JVS]

29. The comfy middle class can afford to be environmentalist, but don't fear

Their class is dwindling

[Strelnikov_]

30. ..

[FogerRox]

32. And is that principle called PEAK OIL ?

[Strelnikov_]

33. Gasoline prices will continue to rise due to the worldwide peaking of petroleum production

It really has nothing to do with principle.

The current paradigm for resource allocation is 'rationing by price'.

Your experience, along with billions of others (look up some articles on the third world countries being priced out of petroleum consumption) underscores the bankruptcy of the Laissez-faire Capitalist system in providing for the entire cross-section of its population.

There is a lot of money to be made in the initial stages of peak oil, some of which will not be made if the 'consumers' catch wind of the beginning of the end of the oil age, and begin to make other economic and political arrangements. This is why the existence and effects of peak oil are being treated similar to global warming by the corporate media and our politicians.

The only permanent solution to the oil trap we now find ourselves in is massive conservation measures coupled with emergency development of redundant alternative energy sources and carriers to petroleum derived liquid fuels.

In lieu of rationing by price, a carbon credit system of rationing should be established to ensure a baseline quantity of energy at a baseline price. Consumers would pay market price for energy consumption over the baseline quantity.

This baseline ration would be along the lines of 20 gal/mo. over the next ten years (23.5 gal/mo beginning to 19 gal/mo at end of 10 year period) which should be within the range of domestic production (incl. biofuels) to produce. Of course this assumes implementation of a USEA (see below) taking control over domestic energy resources since if the Government had to bid against the world for energy resources to satisfy this ration, we could not afford it.

In the coming world of energy scarcity, the current ‘free-market’ dynamic will be incapable of providing a relatively stable energy supply. We will need a diverse, redundant and integrated energy infrastructure that will require planning and coordination far beyond what ‘market signals’ (ie: price) can provide.

As such, we need to establish a USEA (U.S. Energy Authority) that provides centralized high-level planning, management and funding for the energy infrastructure. Once we have established a USEA, we can begin basing infrastructure development on an energy balance basis. This would hopefully avoid the building of inefficient, unsustainable systems.

Why funding? Imagine what would happen to an energy infrastructure dependent on biofuels during drought years. Can you imagine the effect of a ‘dust bowl’ series of years on a biofuel industry? One way to mitigate would be to build a ‘strategic coal stockpile’ with mothballed liquefaction capacity ready to be put on line in the event of a shortfall. The energy infrastructure of the future will have to include redundancy. Mothballed capacity and stockpiles are not a part of a Laissez-faire system.


The above is a result of four years of study and thinking about the energy crises fac gal/mong us, and is what I have concluded is the best (minimize suffering) management approach to the crises.

Now, with that said, how much do you see getting done? We can't even get meaningful increases to the CAFE standards through Congress.


See where we are heading? Basically, by already living in a rural area, you are probably in a better position than 90% of the population.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. Anyone Who Wants It To Go Up Is An Ignorant Selfish Jackass, PERIOD.

They are beyond contemptible in my opinion.

[PBass]

37. Anybody who actually wants gas prices to rise, is in the fringe minority.

In fact you may even be battling a straw man, here. I do see people occasionally talking about how they razzed a Hummer owner, or that type of thing. Or hoping that Hummer owners pay a lot, at the pump.

That's not the same as hoping that gas prices go up "for everybody".

Im sure there's a few people like that, but they are rare. It's a bit nihilistic to hope that everything gets worse, isn't it? How many nihilists are there, really?

[Jed Dilligan]

38. Should we drive, walk, or bike to environmental meltdown?

Without structural change we're headed in that direction no matter how we move.

[Skidmore]

45. And we have politicians who have no will to implement

a structural change, only the will to line their coffers and hobnob in the hub of power. And might I point out that these people exist on both sides of the aisle, left and right. And we keep putting them there because the squishy middle are afraid of rocking the boat.

[Jed Dilligan]

49. Exactly. They put the blame on our individual behavior

instead of taking the actually needed steps.

[althecat]

39. Its notthing to do with principle... its just observing that the sun will rise

& IT WILL GET MUCH MUCH WORSER...

YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET...

[yella_dawg]

40. You described my financial status well.

Though things are a little tougher than you described. I want gas prices to go through the roof tomorrow. For one reason and one reason only. The collapse of our gasoline driven economy in inevitable. China is set to pass us as the number one oil importer. They've come out of nowhere in the last ten years to rival us in consumption. The world oil production infrastructure is projected to lose it's ability to compensate for the additional demand by September 2007. That's two months away.

The sooner the shit hits the fan, the less pain we, as a nation will feel. If we drag it out for a couple of more years with gas going up all that the market will bear, but not a penny more, we'll be financially prostrate when the inevitable comes. The last time gas spiked, pawn shops did a brisk business just getting people to work. What happens when that spike hits and there's nothing left to pawn?

The sooner we wake up and realize a global supply chain for basic necessities is flippin' insane, the easier the transition will be. If it happens tomorrow, the impact will be catastrophic. If it hit's in ten years, we may never recover as a nation, or even as a civilization.

[BlueCollar]

44. as an employee of an airline

I appreciate your desire to see fuel prices "...to go through the roof tomorrow."

Having to look for a new career will make my day...

Oh...and there's no viable public transportation around here.

[farmboxer]

41. Shipping & Handling Is Hurting My Business

the cost has risen so much, but that does not hurt the extremely rich bastards!

[eridani]

42. It's not a matter of wanting it

It's where prices are going after Peak Oil. Not that the current price gouging is justified at all, though. Playing with ripples in the market to maximize profit should of course be illegal, but the strong current underlying those ripples is inevitably carrying us to higher prices. If we'd get busy inventing the next economy instead of blowing all our resources on the conquest of an inevitably diminishing resource, we'd be much better off.

[PaulaFarrell]

48. The problem IS the consumer

Have you ever wondered why there are no grocery stores within 20 miles of you? I'm sure there were many years ago - every small town had its stores. But with the coming of the 'supermarket' everybody ditched these small stores and loaded into the car to drive to the newest big store so they could save 20 cents on something or other. Hence you have no local stores which you could walk or bike to, and no local jobs for the kids.

The prices you mention don't seem that high to me. Milk was $2 a gallon when I left the US 17 years ago so if it's only $3 I'd say that's pretty good. Apples are out of season, and $1.20 for lettuce just doesn't strike me as that high. But have you considered start a local food co-op? I've never been in one myself, but I've heard they can cut the prices of groceries.

It's not that I'm not sympathetic that you're broke - but tryng to villify environmentalists is just nonsense. I've yet to meet a 'rabid environmentalist wishing to dish out more pain' (actually the nicest group of people you'd ever want to meet). Environmentalists do recognise that global warming caused by excessive emission of CO2 will result in worldwide food shortages. WHen those kick in you will be looking back on today's prices with envy.

[depakid]

50. I expect that Americans will suffer

and quite frankly, considering their wasteful and unsustainable "lifestyles" they'll richly deserve what's coming.

That has nothing to do with wishing- that's just a hard cold fact.