On Capitol Hill, Military Warns of Being Under Strain

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-troops18nov18,0,6045845,print.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Continued fighting in Iraq is straining U.S. forces nearly to the breaking point, even as the Pentagon pumps more than $5.8 billion per month into sustaining its forces there, the chiefs of the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines told Congress on Wednesday.

In testimony to the House Armed Services Committee, the service chiefs said the military would need considerably more money for Iraq over the next year. The chiefs of the Army and Marines in particular stressed the increasing difficulty of recruiting and retaining soldiers, and then equipping them for combat.

<snip>

In the last year, as the insurgency in Iraq has grown, "the demand on the force has increased exponentially," Hagee said. "This demand is especially telling in the strain on our Marines, their families, and on our equipment and materiel stocks."

For the Army, which has 110,000 soldiers serving in Iraq — five times as many troops as the Marine Corps — the strain is particularly acute, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker said. Despite racing over the last year to install heavy armor on its fleet of more than 8,000 Humvees in Iraq, it has so far manufactured the armor for only half, he said. And not all of that has been installed on the vehicles.

<snip>

Though equipment costs have been significant, the service chiefs testified, so has the impact on personnel. Recruiters have been forced to offer large signing bonuses to attract new recruits, while the National Guard and Reserve are struggling to retain people.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

1. Who, tell me, please .............

........WHO are they gonna call up next?

No one's left.

And what happens if there's some kind of disaster in the US, where the NATIONAL GUARD, you know, the one that rushes to scenes like floods and hurricanes and other national emergencies, is needed? Who shows up then?

The volunteer fire department from the next town over?

[barb162]

7. they are trying to call up officers in their 40s and 50s who have

been out of the military for years

[pfitz59]

104. I'm in that category....

My wife is terrified.

[The Zanti Regent]

24. Who needs a draft when we have JESUS?

Why all we need to do with these nasty terrorists is just sprinkle Holy Water on em...

[Lizzie Borden]

30. Excellent point!

[natrat]

95. onward christian soldiers

or is it hail to the thief

[Cornjob]

45. I think Bush will invoke the name of Jesus...

as he proposes a new recruiting program for the military.

I really believe that he is going to concoct a super-expensive alternative to the draft. My best guess? It will be something like a $100,000 payout to all new enlistees and re-enlistees (payable at the end of their hitch), plus a super bonus for combat troops (probably $100,000 at the end of their tour). It also fits with his 'ownership' theme.

After all, getting billions from taxpayers is much easier than dealing with a draft.

[jimshoes]

2. Makes me wish bushco* would declare war on Ohio

and spend some of that money here.

[Booster]

60. Made me laugh out loud. Sad, but you're right.

[Liberal Veteran]

I know for a fact there will be no draft...

...merely a mandatory 4 year conscription.

And if you disagree, you must hate god, liberty and murica!

[barb162]

21. okay I will bite...is there a diff?

[Liberal Veteran]

37. Of course not....but you just know it will called some other name...

....just so they can claim it wasn't really a draft.

Just like they claim that Vietnam was not really a war...just a sustained police action.

[sandnsea]

56. National Service

In exchange for college, which will confuse everybody and make them think it's Kerry's plan. Then they'll call up the people who have Pell Grants or have recently graduated through Pell Grants, and everybody will say; that's fair and it's what Kerry wanted. Never mind reality, that went away a very long time ago.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

32. Amen Brother!

We would never vote in a President who would draft our boys. No, we won't stand for that!! However, I understand it's the moral duty of our youth to spend 4 years helping out this fine administration.

Amen, praise be to Jesus!

[Tight_rope]

81. Leave that crack pipe alone and get real!

Who do you think will replace the dead and injured.:argh:

[DulceDecorum]

85. The replacements will consist of

MORE dead and MORE injured.

Isaiah 63:1
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=ISA%2B63%3A1-6&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=NIV&x=13&y=10

The Kabbalah of Basra
http://www.moshiach.com/discover/articles/saddam.php

[DS1]

98. LOL

You read a lot, don't you :eyes:

[TwentyFive]

3. Isn't is just galling at how Bush just lied during the debates?

Bush looked into the camera...smiled...and pledged there would be no draft. And the dumb Amercians just bought the lie...hook...line...and...SINKER.

[carolinalady]

39. They did not look at his eyes--blink blink blink n/t

[not fooled]

48. bush-loving morans...nom

[natrat]

96. he didnt lie

he just recited what they piped into the reciever on his back

[spotbird]

4. If we need a draft it's Clinton's fault.

So is the coming economic catastrophe, but that's another story.

[clydefrand]

6. Weeeeeeeeeeeeell, I just heard Sean Hannity say today

that he couldn't name one good thing Clinton had done during his 8 years in office. And the Congress at that time was responsible for the surplus, not Clinton. Well, I guess those same repugs are likewise responsible for the largest deficit in the nation's history and the largest debt in its history.

To the repugs everything is the fault of the Democrats.

[Gloria]

12. Yes, the Congess WAS responsible...because AL GORE cast the

vote that cleared Clinton's economic package.

Even David Gergen praised Clinton's "WISE" economic performance today...

[not fooled]

47. didn't watching heil hannity make you want to upchuck on the teevee?

"heil hannity" courtesy of the great Bernie Ward (www.kgo.com 10PM-1AM PST). don't know if he came up with it but certainly an apt moniker.

[DS1]

94. I almost ended up in a fist fight in a bar over that same argument

The touching thing was, however, we were both British ex-pats getting so worked up over ~this~ country :-)

[clydefrand]

5. The REDS will get what they deserve for voting for the

bastard who lied to this country. Let them now eat cake, crow or whatever they want. Maybe this is THE thing that will wake up the BIG REDS if they dare take their heads out of their asses to learn a thing or two.

I'm still so disgusted with everything about the simpleton.

[texastoast]

8. Freepers, guess what?

We apparently need a little more whoopass. Sign up and take the twins with you. Maybe then their daddy will go and play commander-in-chief for real.

Nah, he wouldn't. Even though shrubito had a plan for getting out of Vietnam, it remains perfectly clear he has none for getting out of Iraq.

:mad:

[TexasChick]

36. ROFL!!! You forgot Paris Hilton! n/t

[Javaman]

9. See this is the kind of news OBL wants to hear...

He clearly stated on his last video tape that he wants to bankrupt us. If he slams us with another big attack, how in gods name are we going to survive it finanically?
It will only be then, that we will have to realize that bombing people into submission just doesn't work.
There is always a better way. A simple thing to start with is listen to why they are pissed at us, then go from there.

[texastoast]

11. That would be far, far too sensible

You see, the junta doesn't understand that kind of thinking. Way too much foresight and rationality. They are set and they don't give a flying you-know-what about the rest of us.

[natrat]

97. ahh but that does not matter

the neocons or whoever are running this farce are invested for the fall and will swoop in and buy everything in the aftermath real cheap----so dont worry its ok

[Catchawave]

10. OH WAAA AAA

http://www.pbs.org/greatspeeches/timeline/j_kerry_s.html

then get back to me <heh>

[okieinpain]

83. I'm speechless, why didn't kerry's people buy air time and play

that speech during primetime. hell it's what is happening today. destroying villages to save them. fallujah anybody.

[Gasping4Truth]

86. This is a MUST READ !!!

I was already mad as hell about the misrepresentation of John Kerry by the GOP & the mainstream media during the campaign. The band aids, the Swift Boat slander, the frivolous shoving aside of all these serious issues ...

Now I finally read his '71 testimony. Anger doesn't come close to describe what I feel right now.

Before I slam my computer monitor into the wall I call upon everyone to send this link to as many people you know as possible.

It's the frivolity stupid!

[barb162]

13. I like this line from the story: Republicans joined Democrats on the

committee in expressing dismay about the strain on the forces. They are "dismayed" about the strain? Where have they been? Do these people on the Armed Services Committee watch or read the news? How can they be on the Committee if they are so f--king unaware? Total incompetents!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

17. I'm dismayed

at the recently stolen Presidential election.

Dismayed, I tell you.

[barb162]

19. I'm dismayed (and disgusted, depressed, angry as hell, etc) but

why weren't the Dems speaking out more forcefully on all of this! When I look at the new Senate minority leader, I find out he's a anti-abortion Mormon who wants to "dance" with the GOP (and people were glad to see Daschle go???). Lieberman is thinking of going in the Bush administration. Kerry is silent on the election fraud, destroyed ballots, etc. Every day brings more bad news. The Dem leadership has folded it seems. I thought the last 4 yrs. were beyond horrible. The next 4 yrs are going to be way worse. It looks like the Dems are not even going to play opposition; they are just rolling over. Duh?

[reprobate]

51. Folded? Dems? they're just taking off their maskes.

Not one of them IMHO has much connection any more with the people they are supposed to represent. They are far more connected to the lobbyists and the corporations they work for.

Corporate money now owns, manages, and chooses our gov't for us. Ben Franklin was right in predicting the people would become so corrupt that a despot would be their leader.

[barb162]

55. I was talking to a friend today and he is on the same

page as I am. We are both just stunned by each announcement in Washington (Condi at State, the CIA stuff, etc) and the Dem leaders are just NOWHERE. How did the Senate Dems get together and put Harry Reid in as miority leader? He is really a pug as far as I can tell, isn't he?

'people would become so corrupt" But we are NOT corrupt!

Corporate money runs the media, finances the campaigns and the ads. The media is no longer investigative as it was during Watergate or Vietnam. The media is now just functioning as a propaganda arm for the shrubster. The media is not even concerned about vote fraud.

[okieinpain]

82. but as randi says, what the fuck can they do. the repugs don't

need them for anything. they are making the rules as they go.

[DemoTex]

14. The GOP has heated this thing up.

A draft will really cool their jets.

[barb162]

15. here's a statement on the House ASC : no need for draft

October 5, 2004

Statement on the Rejection of the Military Draft Bill
“This overwhelming defeat will hopefully stifle those who seek to spread deliberately false information of an impending draft. We simply do not need a draft. The Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines are meeting their recruitment goals and are still attracting and retaining the people we need to fill all ranks. Our military today is highly qualified because it is comprised of an all volunteer force.

“The President and the Secretary of Defense once again today expressed their opposition to reinstating a draft in any form. The President said that if he were presented with this bill, he would veto it, and Secretary Rumsfeld said he would ‘oppose any proposal to re-institute the draft.”

(which story do you believe? how much do you think the recruiters are offering to recruit?)

[jjanpundt]

16. Ah, they're starting up the rhetoric so that when they

announce the draft no one will be surprised.

[barb162]

18. yeah but 1 month before the election they don't need a draft. Isn't

that interesting? Now we hear they can't recruit anyone without paying a lot. And even if they pay a lot, why would ANYONE go to the military when you know you will be sent to Iraq.

GOP moral value:Lying

[jjanpundt]

22. I've always thought recruiters were just above scum

of the earth. They promise everything to a potential recruit knowing he (or she) will get next to nothing out of the experience. Then when they leave the service, with the way this administration is going, they won't have any benefits left either.

Why the military continues to support someone who constantly screws them around totally baffles me. They were vocal enough about their disapproval of Clinton. Hmmm, maybe they're all masochists.

[barb162]

27. I think I figured it out the last few days and if you were on message

boards about that soldier who shot the injured guy in Fallujah, you would understand why the soldiers support Bush and the freepers. It became extremely clear to me. The freeper on their boards supported the soldier all the way. More DUers than not were calling the soldier a cold blooded murderer, killer, etc. When I suggested the US COnstitution, Fifth Amendment, guaranteed the soldier was innocent until proven guilty, I got some strong insinuations by some on that board I was a freeper, troll, etc. (Yeah, right, that's why I had a Kerry yard sign on my front lawn.)

Well, if any soldiers in Iraq were on DU the last few days, I can't see them ever voting Dem again, whether they hate Bush or not and I think a lot of them hate him. I know a lot of vets hate him, especially with the way the VA is reducing benefits and medical treatment like crazy. Some GOP types I know, vets, who always thought they had VA medical as a backup, have found out the hard way they don't. In the last 2 yrs., the VA changed the "system." These vets lost their jobs and medical insurance, so they went to the VA for medical care and found they weren't "in the system."

[jjanpundt]

31. Yes, I did visit those message boards and was a little

taken aback at the vitriol directed at the soldier. However, after Abu Ghraib (sp?) I'm less inclined to believe the military version of any event.

On the other hand, maybe this is idealistic or naive or whatever, but I believe the vast majority of our military are good people. They're also young and frightened and in a situation that is completely impossible for them to understand or win. It seems to me that the rules of engagement (if any) that they're operating under are bizarre.

Re your comments about the VA. I worked at a VA hospital (admin office not medical) in the 70s and while there were many problems with the program (long waits for treatment being a major one) I enjoyed working there. The medical staff was caring, dedicated and worked their asses off for the vets and their families. That hospital is now being shutdown because of the Va cutbacks and it really bothers me. I don't understand what would make someone join the military, but once they've served their time they should never have to worry about benefits, healthcare for themselves or their families, etc. It's a small way to honor them for their service. The way our vets are being treated is heartbreaking.

[barb162]

40. Yes Abu Graib was the worst thing, just the worst. One of

the things people keep saying about the soldier incident is it is another nail in the coffin in trying to win Iraq hearts. But we long ago lost it. We really did. I doubt the Iraqis are turned more against us with this soldier incident as they were already turned against before the incident, since we humiliated people in that disgusting prison deal, we have already killed like a hundred thousand people, destroyed so many buildings, the infrastructure, etc. And we can't restore order, we put in our puppets for the leaders, etc.

Totally agree with the second paragraph of your post. Bush sends them there to get shot up or killed and I think the soldiers see it as a lost cause. I think it is a lost cause too.

Oh, I just noticed something, that you are in EGV, IL (I lived there many years ago but now am in Naperville, hi neighbor! )

Are you talking about the downtown Chicago VA hosital by Northwestern U.? I heard that one was being shut. My father, a WW 2 vet, died at that hospital in 1964, cancer; he was only there one day. It was new then and very nice. And the people there were all so nice and wonderful and caring.

"...but once they've served their time they should never have to worry about benefits, healthcare for themselves or their families, etc. It's a small way to honor them for their service. The way our vets are being treated is heartbreaking. " Oh how true. The vets, after risking their lives, should have the best health care and benefits. They aren't getting anywhere near that. It is insane and horrible what is happening to the military people and vets and their families. I can't figure out why Bush isn't pumping the VA with money to build more hospitals, facilities etc.,to take care of the soldiers and vets. It drives me nuts!

[jjanpundt]

44. IMO the only way we'd get them to think better of us

is to begin tearing up the permanent military bases and give the Iraqis some hope that we're getting out of their country. That's not going to happen with the Bush admin that's fairly certain.

Hi back to you! Naperville's where my chiropractor has his office. Nice area. Moved to EGV a couple years ago from Park Ridge. Really like it.

Yes, I'm referring to VA Lakeside Hospital. When I worked there it was a 500 bed hospital and dozens of outpatient clinics that handled thousands of patients. Had some of the brightest psychologists/psychiatrists, rehab physicians, and a really dedicated staff. I really like the place. It was so easy for patients to get to there and now that it's mostly closed the only place still open is on the west side and difficult to get to. It's time for the vets to rebel at their treatment! They seem to get shafted by everybody.

[barb162]

49. 'It's time for the vets to rebel at their treatment' They are too

loyal and patriotic, even to the end. It is amazing. I wish they could realize that it's okay and also their right to demand what they were promised by the US government.

I think if we perhaps said elections would be held in January come hell or high water, they might have some hope. But then again I read some middle class Iraqis saying that if they were threatened or shot at at the polling places, which they expected to be, they'd rather not vote.

westside...Hines? That place is ancient, right? I never understood why they were closing the downtown hospital when it seemed to be way newer than Hines.

PS. for you to go so far, that must be one great chiropractor!

[radar]

54. Story on CounterPunch.org...

http://www.counterpunch.org/

scroll down a bit....

November 18, 2004
Recruiting Teenagers as War Fodder
Sign Here, Kid
By MIKE FERNER

He trolled for teenagers in North Carolina high schools, barked orders at recruits in boot camp, and pulled charred civilian corpses out of cars in Iraq. Now Jimmy Massey is making good on his promise to tell the whole world what he learned as a Marine.

For the first 10 years, Massey loved being in the USMC. With a quick mind and an easy manner, he and his superiors knew he'd make a great recruiter. And by the luck of the draw, he was assigned to the area around Asheville, N.C., not far from where he grew up...."

[jjanpundt]

57. Thanks for posting the link to the story! Massey as a

recruiter was scum of the earth -- like the recruiters in F 911 -- however he went through hell and somehow kept it together mentally. I admire his courage for trying to set things right. I hope he's sucessful in his efforts to help young people that are being hounded by recruiters. Thanks again for posting the link. I'm adding the site to my ever increasing "must read" site list.

[Blue_Tires]

101. that's a must-read

especially for teenage posters or parents with teens

[carolinalady]

41. I was just going to say the same thing . Their patterns are so

obvious--first Afghanistan (never heard about it before 9/11) then Iraq rhetoric for a year or so before the big boom--now Iran and the Draft. It is coming--just in time for my boys 14 and 12 to participate. That is the PRIMARY reason every single one of my Freeper relatives voted Democratic this year. I still can't believe I am the only security Mom and my family is the only Freepers turned blue that did this--- Amazing!!!!

[barb162]

42. I think a lot of people voted anti-Bush and the ballots got

"lost" one way or another, whether in electronic limbo or in the garbage can. I am glad your relatives turned the right way...none of mine did. If anything, they can march in protest parades when he starts up on Iran, the draft, N. Korea, etc. Hopefully, by the time your sons are old enough, people will finally come to their senses and vote the pugs out. I worry for all those who are going to get drafted. We cannot win a war of ideas or guerilla war and I think that was clearly proven in Vietnam. I don't know how parents think if they have really young children...maybe they think all of this will be settled in 20 years so what's the problem voting for Bush? Or if they have girls, they figure the girls will be safe. I don't get it. I have no children but I mourn those families whose sons have been killed recently in Iraq; Thanksgiving is next week. Their kids are dead in some stupidass useless war and that means they died needlessly. And then these families get to listen to "Happy Holidays" music for the next month.

[carolinalady]

46. I totally agree-- I read your post earlier about the soldier...

I was one of the ones who pointed out the fact that he was just a kid and got my head bitten off. My point was there he is with a gun in an adrenaline dictated situation with mind control training on board knowing that he has to fight or be court martialed and he has to win or die. What young boy has the maturity to think first shoot later? I am no Freeper but the person who started the thread sure thought I was one. I do not blame those boys. I blame the power hungry rich SOB's that are running our country.

[barb162]

52. oh yeah, the soldiers are patriotic, loyal Americans risking

and giving their lives. I never blame them. They and the rest of the military over there have been put in a no-win situation. They are cannon fodder for the Bush War and I doubt if any will come out of there without lifelong psychological trauma. For an interesting and sympathetic article on the soldier written by an ex-military person, see

http://slate.msn.com/id/2109904/


There was a thread on Wed and one on Tues. I was on Tuesday's. I checked Wednesday's which was like a duplicate of Tuesday's except a different cast of posters, all trying to outdo each other on how much they were disgusted by the "cold-blooded killer, the criminal" etc. I kept telling those posters you aren't walking in this soldier's shoes, he has the right to due process, etc., and just writing those things, you would have thought I was Dick Cheney. I feel sorry for the soldier as I think the military might crucify him. When I watched that tape, all I heard was a scared guy. He was NOT saying hahaha, I am going to blow this raghead's head off. You could tell he was not enjoying the idea of killing someone.

[DulceDecorum]

58. Chill

the soldier who assassinated that Iraqi
for daring to breathe in a house of worship
will not be punished
much nor for long.

Observe the respective careers of Lt. Calley and Colin Powell.

The party of Tom Delay
will extend the professional courtesy expected of one exterminator to another
and the the young man will be raised to the same exalted status
as was Barabbas when he came before Pontius Pilate.

The soldier will be given what he took away from his victim.
Life.
Liberty.
And the pursuit of happiness.

O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife.
Who more than self the country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

The Iraqi will be cast into an unmarked grave,
and the blood with which he defiled the mosque
will be washed off the walls and thrown into the street.

[carolinalady]

63. I'm not so sure.. the power people in this gov think that is their

right not the little "minions" if they need to be court martialed, sacrificed so be it. As long as the blood is not on their hands.

[DulceDecorum]

69. Collateral Damage

“With fire and sword the country round
Was wasted far and wide,
And many a childing mother then,
And new-born baby, died;
But things like that, you know, must be
At every famous victory.

“They say it was a shocking sight
After the field was won;
For many thousand bodies here
Lay rotting in the sun;
But things like that, you know, must be
After a famous victory.

-- Robert Southey
http://holyjoe.org/poetry/southey.htm

[barb162]

76. Siegfried Sassoon, 1917

"I AM making this statement as an act of willful defiance of military authority, because I believe that the war is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it.

I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this war, upon which I entered as a war of defense and liberation, has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purposes for which I and my fellow-soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them, and that, had this been done, the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation.,

I have seen and endured the sufferings of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust.


On behalf of those who are suffering now I make this protest against the deception which is being practiced on them; also I believe that I may help to destroy the callous complacence with which the majority of those at home regard the continuance of agonies which they do not share, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realize."

[DulceDecorum]

78. SERUV

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

Posted 11/22/2003 1:08 PM
At least 17 U.S. troops have committed suicide in Iraq; Army seeks answers
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-11-22-suicides_x.htm

The way he told the story, Jeff was about five feet away from two Iraqis — each about his own age — when he was ordered to shoot them. He said he looked them in their eyes before closing his own, then pulled the trigger.
“He took off two dog tags around his neck, threw them at me and said, ‘Don’t you understand? Your brother is a murderer,”’ Debbie said.
The dog tags, which she said had Arabic letters scratched in them, were the ones her brother claimed he took from the soldiers he said he shot.
http://www.marinetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-457287.php

LADY MACBETH
Out, damned spot! Out, I say!—One, two. Why, then, ’tis
time to do ’t. Hell is murky!—Fie, my lord, fie! A soldier,
and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none
can call our power to account?—Yet who would have
thought the old man to have had so much blood in him.

[barb162]

64. Interesting poem. I think our soldiers are as victimized as

the Iraqis. It's the Shrub's War and he is sending the soldiers there to do his dirty work and they end up getting killed and injured for his stupid ass war. Both the Iraqis and the US soldiers are dying needlessly in an utterly useless war we have already lost.

[DulceDecorum]

65. The Brown Man's Burden

Pile on the brown man's burden,
compel him to be free;
Let all your manifestoes
Reek with philanthropy.
And if with heathen folly
He dares your will dispute,
Then, in the name of freedom,
Don't hesitate to shoot.

Pile on the brown man's burden,
And if his cry be sore,
That surely need not irk you--
Ye've driven slaves before.
Seize on his ports and pastures,
The fields his people tread;
Go make from them your living,
And mark them with his dead.

--Henry Labouchère


http://www.grossmont.k12.ca.us/mcdowell/history/projects/wmburden/brownman.html

[carolinalady]

67. i respect your intelligence and point of view but let me ask you

were you this insightful at the ripe old age of 19? If you were then you are an exception to the rule. As much as I love my oldest son he is full of ideas that are black and white. He is a straight A student, so he is very logical in his thought process, he just lacks world experience that one only gets through living. There is a reason the young kids fight the wars. They can be manipulated. They do not see all sides of an issue.

[DulceDecorum]

77. Which brings us back to death of Paul Wellstone

Wellstone successfully fought and won,
the consent of the butchers
not to intervene
with the other nations of the world
when it came to outlawing the the participation of CHILDREN in war.

There are only two nations on Earth,
which have NOT ratified
the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

If you have a LIVING child,
WHY do YOU sit still and allow YOUR OWN CHILD
to be threatened with participation in battle?
What kind of a parent allows their child
to go out and MURDER
the children of other parents?

On the Night of the Rangers,
US soldiers strafed cords and used women and children as shields
JUST AS THEY WERE TAUGHT TO DO
in the Urban Warfare Course.
The first US casualty was a 19 year old kid rappelling out of a helicopter.
WHY WAS HE THERE?

The United States REFUSES to ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child
BECAUSE
the US reserves the "right" to kill them
some time after they are born.

Elsewhere in the world, only Congo and Iran are known to have executed juvenile offenders in the last three years. Each now explicitly repudiates the practice, making the United States the only country that continues to claim the legal authority to execute juvenile offenders.
http://hrw.org/campaigns/deathpenalty/docs/update1023.htm

The United States DESTROYED the government of Somalia
and without a universally recognized government
Somalia remains UNABLE to ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
The children of Somalia,
remain victim
to the adults of the United States.

Pentagon Objections Weaken Senate Push to Ratify Child Rights Protocols
by Adam Frankel
Opposition from the Pentagon is hampering efforts by the Bush administration to secure ratification of the two optional protocols of the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) on sexual exploitation and child soldiers before the Special Session in September.
Administration officials understand that it would be prudent for the United States to endorse the protocols before September so that the United States can be seen as a constructive actor for child rights at the Special Session.
The two optional protocols of the CRC are said to be listed as 'urgent' or 'very important' on the Bush administration's treaty priority list, and the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, which has the final say when it comes to all international treaty obligations, expects to receive the treaty priority list from the State Department sometime in the next two weeks.
The list will urge 'swift consideration' of the protocols in Senate committee and a move to the Senate floor for a vote on ratification, according to congressional sources.
In spite of this, sources tell 'On the Record' that the administration's support for the protocols still seems lukewarm. Staffers for Senator Paul Wellstone, a Democratic Senator from Minnesota who is leading the ratification effort in the U.S. Senate, said that instead of pushing hard for ratification, the administration is 'not objecting.'
One reason is that the protocol on child soldiers has met opposition from the Pentagon. The protocol bans soldiers under age 18 and there are several thousand 17-year-old soldiers in the U.S. armed forces. Some officials worry that if the United States were prohibited from recruiting 17-year-olds, the armed forces might revert to an involuntary draft to maintain its numbers.
http://www.ngosatunicef.org/old_site/OTR/v2/07.html#10

READ THAT AGAIN.
CAREFULLY.
The protocol bans soldiers under age 18
and there are several thousand 17-year-old soldiers in the U.S. armed forces.
Some officials worry
that if the United States were prohibited from recruiting 17-year-olds,
the armed forces might revert to an involuntary draft
to maintain its numbers.

What did the people of Iraq,
ever do to the people of the United States,
to cause the Pentagon
to send American children into battle in Fallujah?
And bad-mannered children at that.

HOW CAN YOU KILL SOMEONE IN A MOSQUE!!!
WHAt the hell is WRONG with you people??

[barb162]

88. HOW CAN YOU KILL SOMEONE IN A MOSQUE!!!

How can certain people use mosques, hospitals and schools as armories and shooting nests?

"What did the people of Iraq,
ever do to the people of the United States"

Nada. We all know that it is a totally senseless war. Quit the preach

"WHAt the hell is WRONG with you people??"

Nothing, What's wrong with YOU?

[DulceDecorum]

100. I am intolerant of intolerance

and I believe in the Golden Rule:
do unto others as you would have done unto you.

I that Marine is later deliberately murdered within a church
within his own neighborhood
then I shall not comment
other than to say,
Karma.

He will have been exactly given what he specifically asked to receive.
And THAT is far far more,
than ANY Iraqi has EVER received from the bloodstained hands
and dripping fangs
of the Coalition and their supporters.

If you TRULY are against this bloodbath,
if you can see the humanity of the people your sons are slaying,
then bring the servicemen home.
Do not allow your sons to become the tools of the Sorcerers.


WASHINGTON -- "America is proud of its part in the great story of the Filipino people," said President Bush to a joint session of the Congress of the Philippines last week. "Together our soldiers liberated the Philippines from colonial rule."
Unfortunately, we then killed more than 200,000 Filipinos. Almost all of the dead were civilians, killed in the two years AFTER we liberated them from the Spanish in 1898. One of our generals there, a cranky Civil War veteran named Jacob Smith, told his men: "I wish you to kill and burn ... I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States."
"How young?" asked Maj. Waller Tazewell Waller (cq) of the U.S. Marines. "Ten years and up," said Gen. Smith.
None of this was secret at the time. American soldiers -- we sent 70,000 there after the Spanish colonial authority surrendered when Commodore George Dewey's fleet sailed into Manila Harbor -- wrote of the details in letters to hometown newspapers. Here are samples quoted in a new book, "Flyboys," by James Bradley:
"We bombarded a place called Malabon, and then went in and killed every native we met, men, women and children" ... "This shooting human beings is a 'hot game' and beats rabbit hunting all to pieces" ... "Picking off niggers in the water is more fun than a turkey shoot" ... "I am probably growing hard-hearted, for I am in my glory when I can sight my gun on some dark skin and pull the trigger. Tell all my inquiring friends that I am doing everything I can for Old Glory and for America I love so well."
http://www.rpadden.com/docs/phillipines.htm

[barb162]

102. I want the soldiers home; both sides are killing themselves

needlessly and I think I have been stating this in just about every post I have made, including the one where I stated let's bring them home NOW. There is zero way we are going to fix things there...it is just SENSELESS SLAUGHTER now.

[DulceDecorum]

106. On this point

we agree.
The Americans should stay their collective ass at home.
Forever.
Amen.

[barb162]

91. et tu?

...
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[DulceDecorum]

105. DULCE ET DECORUM EST

the first words of a Latin saying (taken from an ode by Horace). The words were widely understood and often quoted at the start of the First World War. They mean "It is sweet and right." The full saying ends the poem: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori - it is sweet and right to die for your country. In other words, it is a wonderful and great honour to fight and die for your country.
http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
http://yorick.infinitejest.org:81/1/twainwp.html

Truth is scarce and propaganda abundant during wartime. But if you're lucky enough to live in Iraq, American planes will fly overhead every day, littering the landscape with helpful leaflets of Wisdom and pamphlets of Truth. What a great fucking country the United States must be!
http://yorick.infinitejest.org:81/1/iraq_leaflets.html

[natrat]

99. yea but after this fiasco

alot of kids realize what a load it all is

[DulceDecorum]

103. Which is why their asses are gonna be drafted

Right after they find some mercenaries to drag them into boot camp.

Remember the Fugitive Slave Act?
http://www.nationalcenter.org/FugitiveSlaveAct.html

Y'all parents of draft-age kids had better NOT wait until Blackwater and those former SASmen and US Special Ops start working as bounty hunters.

Many people think of bounty hunting as a relic from the past, something that was practiced in the Wild West in the nineteenth century and has long since been banished from civilized society. In fact, bounty hunting goes on today, is perfectly legal, and is an essential part of the American system of justice.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/joshua/3.html?sect=18

Monster.com
http://jobprofiles.monster.com/Content/job_content/JC_Military/JSC_PrivateSecurity/JOB_BountyHunter/jobzilla_html?jobprofiles=1

All that is holding them back from hunting your son down and delivering him up to the nearest military base,
is a declaration that draft-dodgers are "criminals"
and a GOP-federal law authorizing tax-money be spent in rounding them up
and dumping them in places like Fallujah.
Boot camp and soldiering equipment are optional.

[barb162]

71. from Siegfried Sassoon

An officer came blundering down the trench:
'Stand-to and man the fire-step!' On he went...
Gasping and bawling, 'Fire-step ... counter-attack!'
Then the haze lifted. Bombing on the right
Down the old sap: machine-guns on the left;
And stumbling figures looming out in front.
'O Christ, they're coming at us!' Bullets spat,
And he remembered his rifle ... rapid fire...
And started blazing wildly ... then a bang
Crumpled and spun him sideways, knocked him out
To grunt and wriggle: none heeded him; he choked
And fought the flapping veils of smothering gloom,
Lost in a blurred confusion of yells and groans...
Down, and down, and down, he sank and drowned,
Bleeding to death. The counter-attack had failed.

[DulceDecorum]

79. "Friendly fire"

Born into a wealthy Jewish family in 1886, Sassoon lived the pastoral life of a young squire: fox-hunting, playing cricket, golfing and writing romantic verses.

Being an innocent, Sassoon's reaction to the realities of the war were all the more bitter and violent -- both his reaction through his poetry and his reaction on the battlefield
(where, after the death of fellow officer David Thomas
and his brother Hamo at Gallipoli,
Sassoon earned the nickname "Mad Jack"
for his near-suicidal exploits against the German lines
-- in the early manifestation of his grief,
when he still believed that the Germans were entirely to blame).

As Paul Fussell said: "now he unleashed a talent for irony and satire and contumely that had been sleeping all during his pastoral youth." Sassoon also showed his innocence by going public with his protest against the war
(AS HE GREW TO SEE THAT INSENSITIVE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP WAS A GREATER ENEMY THAN THE GERMANS).

http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ltg/projects/jtap/tutorials/intro/sassoon/

[barb162]

89. "INSENSITIVE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP WAS A

GREATER ENEMY "

Exactly, ( except I would add greedy re oil) the Iraqis never were our enemy; the shrubster has made them into our enemy.

[aneerkoinos]

20. Numbers about Marines

To date, there has been close to 350 Marine fatalities in Iraq. By rough (modest) guestimate, that means about 2000-3000 casualties (fatalities, wounded, sick, etc.). Article suggests there were about 20 000 Marines, so now, at about halfpoint of their Iraq duty, casualty rate is already 10-15%. The latter half (presuming they don't get extention) is likely to be even bloodier, so the casualty rate for one year stay could be about 30-40%. No wonder the brass is worried, under current terms resistance, which has no problems recruiting, is winning the war of attrition.

[barb162]

23. yes and it is well-known most of the insurgents left Fallujah before

the US military went in there. As soon as the residents and insurgents go back to Fallujah, and we offer people 100 bucks for destroyed houses and businesses (and major riots ensue) we can go back in there and do it all over again; shoot everyone and everything up. And then the US military can get shot up and killed for the Bush War. See, this is how the Bushies win hearts and minds.

Movie: "Groundhog Day"

I am feeling very, very crazy

[jmcgowanjm]

33. Fierce fighting is still raging/USMedia downplays story

"Fierce resistance is still raging with rocket-propelled
grenades (RPGs) and machine guns against the US
forces stationed on the outskirts of Falluja," an Iraqi journalist
in the city, Fadil al-Badrani, said.

"Clashes are still continuing the southern and eastern edges
of the town. US forces have so far failed to storm the 
northern al-Julan neighbourhood," he said.
He added that US-led forces had abandoned al-Julan and
the northern parts of the city, resorting shelling and
aerial bombing those areas.

News agencies reported heavy machine gunfire and
explosions were heard on Wednesday morning coming from
the south-central parts of the town as US marines continued
to hunt remaining fighters.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4A62DCD9-BDE2-4DBA-84C5-A5BFB1689D9F.htm

This confirms large parts of IRReports.

[DulceDecorum]

59. What else is "well known?"

Iraq had weapons of mass destruction?

Allawi is a British citizen?

A Canadian newspaper had a video tape of Nick Berg
BEFORE any "Islamic website ever posted it?"

Gonzales and Rumsfeld despise the Geneva Conventions?

What else is "well known?"

Please tell us,
and the corpses of the CIVILIANS
of the town of Fallujah.

[lovuian]

25. I thought the Military was doing Great!!!

Plenty of Men and equipment and Iraq was going great!!!

Money Money Money!!!

and MEN & WOMEN!!!

thats the catch!!!

[Zorra]

26. Anyone else starting to think "Custer"?

Geez, seems to me we have to pull the troops out of Iraq or there might be a massacre.

[barb162]

28. well when we have so few troops there and there are how many

million Iraqis....

I guess those generals who got fired by Rummie, the ones who said we needed about 3X the troops he sent in, were right. Tommy Franks was a total numbskull too. He and Rummie and the shrubster tried doing this war on the cheap; the oil will pay for it, they will be throwing flowers at us, etc.

Yep. What a disaster, another Vietnam in the making

[fedsron2us]

29. Equipment is wearing out as fast as the troops

and that can not be fixed by a draft.

[ilovenicepeople]

50. Do we even know the # of US troops in Iraq?

I mean the real number(it has to be dropping for obvious reasons)

[DulceDecorum]

62. The MERCENARIES or the enlisted men?

The RICH BASTARD HIT-MEN or the poor sods?

[astroboy]

34. Good thing we are increasing our debt limits right NOW

and we can always cut SS to support our troops.

[Straight Shooter]

35. Cutting Social Security to pay more for bush's war

I guess that's the ticket, then. If you have a crappy future ahead of you, why not join the military. Even if you die, to someone who is young and fatalistic, it may seem a better option than living your "golden years" in poverty and desperate for health care.

With Clinton, the future was so bright we had to wear shades. Now we're all looking to strap on headlamps.

Jeebus on a pogo stick, how can one man's agenda be so destructive.

[astroboy]

38. we'll if it's required...

we ain't gotta choice, i guess :shrug:

[barb162]

43. we can get out of Iraq now; we aleady screwed it up; we lost

it months ago; the window of opportunity we had right after we entered Baghdad was screwed up by the Bushies.

If we get the troops out now, at least we will save their lives.

[astroboy]

61. but i thought we had to WIN, like JFK said

and support our troops... i'm sooooo confused :crazy:

[barb162]

66. Don't you think we can support our troops by trying to get

them home before more of them get killed and before they kill more Iraqis. What's all the killing about again...WMD? Oh wait, Saddam was evil? Oh, wait, how about we have to put in democracy in the Mideast, (even if we have to kill all of them to do it.) To not be confused, write a letter to the Shrub and ask for a clarification of why we are there. I forget which excuse we are on.

[driver8]

70. destructive agenda

It is amazing, isn't it? How one man can cause so much misery for so many?? The thing that is even more amazing is that people blindly follow this idiot without asking questions.

There are some dark days ahead, I'm afraid...

[Emillereid]

53. Bush is planning a skills draft!

Military Draft Alert

In the second debate, President Bush asked us to “forget all this talk about a draft” and refused to answer the question of how he would prevent it—then he rudely cut off Charles Gibson’s next question as to why the overuse of Reservists on long deployments was not a back-door draft.


Yet the issue of the draft deserves a fair debate based on the facts before the election.


President Bush also said in the second debate that he “hears there’s rumors on the Internets” about the draft. What you are about to read is not a rumor and the Freedom of Information Act document now posted on the Web has been acknowledged as authentic by Selective Service Spokesman Dan Amon, speaking to the Rocky Mountain News. The timeline below shows that the Selective Service System is not telling the truth when they say this is only “food for thought”—the SSS is in fact preparing for the real possibility of a Skills, Medical and Combat Draft for 2005. Congress of course must still pass a 1-page trigger resolution reauthorizing current conscription law, but the Selective Service will by early 2005 have geared up the entire draft system and be prepared to register more than 40 million Americans for a new Skills Draft and the Medical Draft; they will be using complex forms that will track a person’s skills—man or woman.

The most important thing to keep in mind about the draft before the election is that, if it wanted to avoid a draft, the Bush Administration could add several billion dollars to the Defense budget and add 2 active-duty divisions to the military to save the Volunteer Army. John Kerry is actually proposing doing just that in his $7 billion plan to add the 2 divisions, and to preserve a purely Volunteer Army with increased benefits, a doubling of Special Ops, and several other programs like his volunteer Civilian Stability Corps (kind of a Peace Corps on steroids)........ more...more


theBlatantTruth: exposing the Bush Doctrine of greed, repression and fraud
http://blatanttruth.org

last updated 10/23/04

[Starfury]

68. Medical Draft Overview

From http://www.sss.gov/FSmedical.htm

"MEDICAL DRAFT IN STANDBY MODE

The Health Care Personnel Delivery System (HCPDS) is a standby plan developed for the Selective Service System at the request of Congress. If needed it would be used to draft health care personnel in a crisis. It is designed to be implemented in connection with a national mobilization in an emergency, and then only if Congress and the President approve the plan and pass and sign legislation to enact it. No portion of the plan is designed for implementation in peacetime. If implemented, HCPDS would:

Provide a fair and equitable draft of doctors, nurses, medical technicians and those with certain other health care skills if, in some future emergency, the military’s existing medical capability proved insufficient and there is a shortage of volunteers.

Include women, unless directed otherwise by Congress and the President.

Draft a very small percentage of America’s health care providers into military service. Impact on the availability of civilian health care would be minimal. Those health-care workers whose absence would seriously hurt their communities would be deferred on the basis of community essentiality.

Begin a mass registration of male and female health care workers between the ages of 20 and 45. They would register at local post offices. HCPDS would provide medical personnel from a pool of 3.4 million doctors, nurses, specialists and allied health professionals in more than 60 fields of medicine.

Require minimal training for HCPDS draftees, because they are already skilled personnel."


More draft-related details in the SSS Annual Performance Plan:
http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

[daleo]

73. They will claim they want people for special skills

But those young people with fresh computing diplomas from community colleges that are called up as "analysts" will soon find themselves shooting a rife or driving an oil tanker. That is how I think the scam will start.

[Dr Fate]

72. I'm glad I'm half blind & in my 30's...

...I fought like hell in this election to remove the chimp- I cant help it if most of the young people could not put down their X-Box controllers long enough to vote...

I feel a slight draft in here...

[DulceDecorum]

84. Blind and old -- and IN IRAQ!!

In 1991, the Army inspector general found that 8,000 Reserve personnel were activated
but could not deploy for Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm
because of a variety of maladies that included,
according to the GAO,
cancer,
heart disease,
DOUBLE kidney failure,
muscular dystrophy,
and in one case, A GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE HEAD.
And the GAO found that
the Army had more than 22,000 reservists with medical conditions that would prevent them from deploying.
http://www.rense.com/general45/med.htm

Now those guys had REAL excuses.

But those thar Muslims are SUMFIN ELSE!!
Consider:
Osama is hooked to a dialysis machine.
Ameer Bukhari died in a plane on September 2000
BUT
he got up out of his grave to help destroy the World Trade Center.

And here you are wussing out on account of some glasses and a little arthritis.
Hey, we need a DUI,
some cocaine,
and a rich Paw
before we let you go campaign for some Republican
until things calm down enough
to let you wear that medal you got out of the pawnshop.

Incidentally,
the kids DID mosh their way to the ballot box
but Mr. Guess-who
went and subtracted them out of the equation.

[Dr Fate]

92. Damn! I guess I'm going then...

Yee-haw & Jesus Hellfire.

[Dark]

74. You have to wonder what would happen if we actually were attacked.

by a foreign power. What could we do?

[FreedomSpirit]

75. And this is what our friends to the North have to say ...

http://www.nowar.ca/mr_bush.mp3


this should be our mantra

[Tight_rope]

80. The troops shouldn't worry...The Mighty Chimp will save the day = DRAFT!

[KakistocracyHater]

87. Military Warns of Being Under Strain

Bush just reassured us that the military told him they had enough troops in Iraq. So now that the GOPpies have won, the military is suddenly speaking out?! Did they say anything before Nov2nd & it just wasn't covered by the mainstream media? I didn't hear a thing about being "under strain", conveniently, I guess. Are our military leaders afraid of the GOP? Personally, I don't believe they're afraid, I believe they're cohorts. Why else would they be playing to lose, & using emotions to goad, bully, & deceive patriots into place?

[barb162]

90. see post 15 from the 10/5/04 House Armned Services Committee

where they state there's no need for a draft. (I would say LOL normally to this outright lie except the subject is too damned serious).

This is just despicable; they were only saying there was no need for a draft and Bush was doing this in interviews too before the election. I am still incapable of describing my feeling about the level of lies of the administration. And my disappointment of half the voters not to see it (or is it denial, stupidity, etc)

[DS1]

93. Boy - this REALLY Jives with Rumsfeld's idea that we can STILL fight

another large scale conflict in North Korea.

The F*CKING IDIOTS!!!

If I were Trump, these goddamn fossils from the Reagan era would have all been fired in a mass slaughter episode, episode one.

[natrat]

107. Gracious Leader

should make a speach asking those who believe in the cause to sign up; and give his supporters a chance to represent.

[republikkkon]

108. send in the repubs!~

everyone who supported bush and the war in iraq better go out and join the fucking army now.

don't be flip-floppers you kkkristian fucks! god wants you to kill muslims and abortion doctors!