S.F. grocers might be charged 17¢ per sack -- and pass on the cost

[Newsjock]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/20/MNGG49UVF71.DTL

In San Francisco, the free grocery bag soon might go the way of the full-service gas station.

City officials are considering charging grocery stores 17 cents apiece for the bags, 90 percent of which are plastic -- and are blamed by environmentalists for everything from clogging recycling machines to killing marine life and suffocating infants.

Although the environmentalists are not as concerned about the effect of recyclable paper bags on the environment, the proposal would include them, too, with the idea of reducing waste in general.

In turn, the fee would be passed on to the consumer. Proponents of the surcharge hope this will persuade shoppers to give up the convenience of the disposable sack.

more

[SoCalDem]

1. I use and re-use cardboard boxes that fit "just so" in the trunk of my car

Hate hate hate bags..:)

[Warpy]

12. Good idea

I invested in some naugahyde shopping bags in Boston 30 years ago when I'd go to the outdoor market in Dock Square on Saturday, followed up by a trip up to the North End for bread and canollis. I suppose it's time to start using them for regular supermarket runs.

I don't produce enough trash to use up grocery bags as trash bags as it is, thanks to recycling and composting.

[saigon68]

2. The solution bring your own bags

Ever been to Europe??? Seems to work there

[Bjornsdotter]

4. Exactly!

French market bags for everyone.

They are really easy to make and patterns are available at about.com for free.

[Starlight]

21. Do you have a link to that pattern?

Obviously I could make it without a pattern, but I'd like to see what they suggest & I can't seem to locate a pattern on that site. TIA.

[Bjornsdotter]

40. Here you go...

...here are some sites that have patterns, if you are anything like me you'll take a bit from many to make your own pattern.

Cheers,
Kim :toast:

http://www.bernat.com/pattern.php?PID=1184

http://knitty.com/ISSUEwinter03/PATTfrenchmarket.html

http://crochet.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=crochet&zu=http://www.fortunecity.com/littleitaly/pisa/22/patterns/yarn/cordbag.html

http://crochet.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=crochet&zu=http://crochetnmore.com/totebag.htm

http://crochet.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=crochet&zu=http://www.marloscrochetcorner.com/Crochet%20on%20the%20go%20bag.html

[Starlight]

46. Thank you! n/t

[kwyjibo]

11. I always take my own canvas bags

they're perfect, and I can usually fit all of my groceries in one (heavy stuff won't break through) and walk home with it.

[TahitiNut]

25. I love my canvas grocery sacks.

They hold full loads and the handles make 'em easy to carry.

If the enviromentalists want to get on something, why not get on the double and triple product packaging - cardboard and plastic that's nothing but marketing tripe. The amount of trash created from just the packaging is enormous.

How about 17 cents charged for every one of the fast-food sacks and wrappers that find themselves discarded alongside the highway? Hell, let's have a bounty on 'em - people will scour the highways and byways just to 'recover' the fast-food trash with the "Golden Arches" logos for spending money. I bet it'd pay more than minimum wage.

[genieroze]

39. That's what aldi does

They charge you for them and you keep on reusing them. They range in price from 5 cents for a paper bag 10 cents for a plastic one and a buck
for a insulated freezer bag.

[bobbieinok]

54. isn't Aldi a German company??

[Streetdoc270]

3. Just buy some

nice re-usable canvas or hemp bags to do all your shopping with.

[Toucano]

5. What's wrong with the carrot?

Why is it all about the stick?

This proposal amounts to a regressive tax.

Why not give shoppers who reuse containers something like 1% off their grocery bill to reward the desired behavior? Or maybe a coupon they can use on a return trip?

[ScrewyRabbit]

8. I don't think the tax analogy works

It's a product that you get -- one with huge implications in waste management. You can elect to buy this product every time you go to the store, or you can bring your own.

BTW, stores charged me for bags in Germany 20 years ago. People routinely brought their own bags to the market. No big deal.

[Toucano]

15. It's still a tax

Just because I can choose to ride a bicycle and avoid the fuel taxes, doesn't mean the monies the government collects on fuel aren't taxes.

The fact that there's an alternative to paying the tax doesn't change it. The city will assess every grocer a fee per bag purchased. That's a tax.

I don't contend that something shouldn't be done about the problem. I'm only suggesting that there may be POSITIVE ways to reinforce desired behavior rather than PUNITIVE was to discourage negative behavior.

[w4rma]

18. The city has get it's money from somewhere.

This seems like a decent way to get it and it would enable the lowering (or at least prevent the raising of them) of taxes elsewhere if successful.

[Toucano]

20. This isn't about generating revenue

For that, they should tax the rich.

This is about modifying behavior. Do we use the carrot or the stick?

Adding to the burden of the working poor violates my Democratic values. ;)

[w4rma]

26. This will hardly affect the poor. It's a totally avoidable tax by anyone.

All you have to do is bring your own bags. And in addition to the revenue created by the folks who don't, the city has less waste to worry about which saves tax dollars which can also be used to cut taxes or prevent them from being raised much.

[Toucano]

33. Cigarette tax is totally avoidable too

But it still burdens the poor more than the rich.

It doesn't matter how MUCH impact it has. I didn't say it would force them into backruptcy or make them choose between medicine and shopping bags. LOL!

I don't want to be on the receiving end of the "Democrats raised your grocery bill" attacks.

What has the city done to encourage or mandate the recycling of these bags?

[Kellanved]

35. so what?

The bags cause costs for everyone by clogging the waste processing machines. Taxing the bags gives everyone an option to avoid the tax. What is a positive way? Give every shopper who brings his own bag a dime? Where is the difference?

You see, at the moment all people are paying for the bags; the grocers have to buy the bags and the city has to process them. The bags at the shop aren't free, they are just without extra charge; the costs are paid by all shoppers, regardless whatever they want them or not. Those costs might not be taxes in nature, but the effect is very much the same (same thing goes for credit cards).
Also, the costs to process them are paid by all people; is it really so negative to charge people the cost they cause?


Just my 0.02, as it is pretty simple from the European standpoint: despite the higher taxes, stuff is a lot cheaper in local supermarkets.

[burrowowl]

38. And plastic bags are made from oil

to produce the paper bags require electricity: oil, coal, etc.
I get canvass bags from defenders of wildlife. Find an environmental group you like and get their bags.

[Toucano]

55. The difference between giving someone a dime and taking 17 cents

is pretty self-evident isn't it?

You don't see the difference if I give you a dime or take from you two dimes? Surely, I've misunderstood you.

Credit card processing, shipping costs, utilities, etc. are totally different because they are paid to vendors, banks, etc. Taxes are paid to the government (in this case, the City of San Francisco). The expenses of the business have less impact on *politics* than taxes do. They all are factored in the price you pay at the register, but the shopper isn't conscious of them.

The cost of transporting the bananas to the supermarket isn't itemized on the receipt the way this tax on grocery bags will be.

If the average family uses 5 bags a week, you're going to cost them $42.50 extra on their grocery bill per year. Here's the radio ad:

"With the passage of this grocery bag tax, the Democrats have taken $42 worth of food from the supple, moist mouths of your sweet, delicious children. Why do they hate families so much?" :crazy:

There are probably scores of better ways to accomplish the same thing. Well, maybe not *SCORES*, but here's a press release for a good one.

______________________________________________________________________

SAN FRANCISCO -- City Environment Department officials announced today the formation of a partnership with the city's supermarkets with the goal of eliminating the use of disposable bags in the city of San Francisco.
When fully implemented, the program is expected to save the city millions of dollars in costs associated with the handling of disposable grocery bags.
Under the program, supermarkets and independent grocers located within the city limits can sign an agreement with the city stating that they will not purchase or use disposable bags. In return for this pledge, the city will give an annual tax credit to the supermarket based on the volume of bags it purchased in the previous year. Each year, the tax abatement is cut in half before finally being eliminated in 2010.
Retailers will also have the opportunity to avoid a 25% increase in trash collection fees by purchasing and making available to their customers specially designed reusable hemp bags that carry the program's "Doin' My Part" logo. The reusable bags will also be available for residents to purchase for a nominal fee at the city's libraries, fire houses, and police stations. Retailers who choose not to participate in the program will not be able to avoid the 25% increase.
Program originator and department head Mia N. Sentiff expects the impact of the program to be immediate.
"Larger supermarkets use tens of thousands of bags each month. Even if consumers reuse those bags once or twice, the bag eventually ends up in the waste management system and cost residents X millions of dollars to handle each year. The savings over the next five years, will completely offset the expenses of the program's launch. After that, the money the city saves will mount. I don't have to remind the citizens of San Francisco that 'a penny saved is a penny earned' and in this case, a tax increase avoided."
Try-N-Save manager Michael Bossman is also excited about the program saying, "This is great for businesses in San Francisco. We've been looking for a way to eliminate disposable bags for the 15 years I've worked here. The just hasn't been an easy way to do it. Now, with the city's program, we'll finally accomplish it. It's great for our bottom line, too! Without the need to buy bags and the new tax credit, my store will be more profitable than the suburban stores. I'm expecting a nice fat bonus from corporate. What's not to like?"

_________________________________________________________

Bingo! Pro-business, pro-environment, pro-working class. Anti-taxes. Is that victory I smell? LOL ;)

Maybe the stores would want to produce the reusable bags themselves. They could make the bag part of their loyalty programs. Insert a Ralph's logo and bar code in the handle or something. Scan the bar code and give you a dollar off your bill or a free cookie.

[Kellanved]

56. America: the only country where socialized bags are more important

than socialized healthcare.

No offense, your argumentation is sound, it is just utterly alien.

[Toucano]

58. No offense taken.

I agree with your statement. And it's WITTY too! ;)

But I think the political reality is we have to look for alternatives to taxation at every opportunity.

FWIW, we're trying to do something about health care.

http://www.spanohio.org/
"Single-Payer Action Network Ohio is a coalition of individuals and organizations in Ohio that seeks fundamental reform of the health insurance system in our state and country so that every resident is guaranteed full and comprehensive coverage."


Remember, we did give the world Dennis Kucinich!

[foo_bar]

62. it's not so much taxation as assessing "total cost of ownership"

in deferred expense to future generations. Of course it's impossible to forecast what technology will become, so the quarterly corporate view is that things will magically right themselves, while the san franciscan view is that it's already too late. Me, I'd charge a nickel a bag.

[Toucano]

63. Sorry. It's still a tax.

"total cost of ownership" is distracting. No offense. :)

The monies collected by the government on a pack of cigarettes help pay for the "total cost" of treating smoking related illnesses. You know what we call that? The cigarette tax (sometimes called a "sin tax").

The monies the government collects on a gallon of gasoline help pay for the "total cost" of roadway maintenance and upkeep associated with wear and tear caused by drivers. You know what we call that? A gas tax.

The bag tax is and will be clearly and accurately characterized as a tax. I doubt it will cause political damage in San Francisco, but I've no doubt it's passage will be used by our opposition to exemplify our "anti-family" policies. It was an AP story in my small town paper yesterday.

Our struggle is a struggle of imagery as much as anything else, isn't it? We should oppose all taxes that aren't targeted at the wealthy.

I don't know if you've read the whole thread, but I don't oppose the bag tax in principle. I just wondered if anyone bothered to look for a carrot approach to solve the problem or if they just went right for the stick. I know the stick (tax) has been successfull in Europe, but that doesn't mean a carrot approach wouldn't also work.

In the long term, the bag tax will produce the desired results and the day of the disposable bag that appeared to be FREE, will be forgotten.

[foo_bar]

65. so we agree?

In the long term, the bag tax will produce the desired results and the day of the disposable bag that appeared to be FREE, will be forgotten.

I prefer to think of it as a tax credit on groceries that frontload the cost of bags. The truly-poor save pennies on frijoles in their wicker baskets, the middle classes pay a sin tax for SUV-compatible modes of plastic.

[Toucano]

66. Mostly.

:)

I prefer to think of it as a tax credit...

How you think of it isn't the problem. It's how our opposition can use things like this to misrepresent our positions.

Other than that, we're good! ;)

[Starlight]

22. Because the discount doesn't work.

Many stores give a rebate of 4 or 5c per bag if you reuse your old bags. I almost never see anyone do it.

[Toucano]

23. I've never heard of a store offering squat.

Do you recall which stores?

It might be interesting to compare your "almost never" anecdotal evidence with real stats from the stores before concluding something "doesn't work".

[myccrider]

31. Refunds for using your own bags

I've used my own canvas bags for over 15 years in SoCal. In that time almost all of the markets have - at one time or another - offered 3¢ to 5¢ per bag refund. In all that time I have only seen 1 or 2 other shoppers in a major supermarket use alternative bags. (At the health food stores, Trader Joe's & Henry's you will see a few using alternatives & they don't offer the discount!)

Right now Ralphs offers 5¢/bag. Either Stater Bros or Albertsons offers 3¢/bag. I haven't seen anyone but me using alternative bags in the last few years at these stores.

[Toucano]

34. Thanks.

That's useful information.

I wonder why the bag tax is 17 cents, but the refund programs are only 3 or 5 cents per bag?

What if the bag refund program were 20 cents a bag, I wonder?

[Starlight]

53. 20c actually might get a decent response.

But I still think *charging* for the bags would get more of a response from people. People HATE to pay extra for anything. Of course I'd like to see reasonably priced reusable bags (cloth or string or even heavyweight plastic) available for sale at the store, too, so people don't have to buy the paper/plastic bags.

BTW, Cosco doesn't offer bags either. At least not in NJ. You can use boxes or bring your own bags or go without.

[Starlight]

32. Feel free to research the subject if you want.

I just know that I've seen quite a few markets in NJ & MN with signs posted. And one manager told me they discontinued the program because no one was using it. :(

[Lefta Dissenter]

6. OK,

I'm one of the horrible people who LIKES the paper bags, because that's what we use for our trash underneath the kitchen sink. I know, go ahead and shoot me.

On the other hand, apparently my son is a much better human being than I am, because he asked for canvas shopping bags for a Christmas present.

[SouthPasadenaDem]

7. Does anyone know

Where to buy French string shopping bags (mail order, regular retail or online)?

They would be ideal for when I go to my neighborhood farmer's market, but I never see them for sale. If they were relatively inexpensive, they would make good gifts and I'd buy a dozen to give away in sets of two.

[SoCalDem]

9. You can buy them here.. and in pretty colors too

http://www.reusablebags.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=18

For set of 5 bags
Pastel Cotton String Shopping Bag Set with Hemp StuffSack: $34.95

Pastel Cotton String Shopping Bag Set with Hemp StuffSack




Our set of 5 tote handle string shopping bags in fun warm colors: Sage, Butter, Raspberry, Sand & Washed Blue (colorfast, low impact dyes).
Set includes a stylish black Compact StuffSack.
for super convenient storage and transportation!

Ideal for heading to the farmer’s market or your regular trips to the grocery store, these cotton European market bags are a classic. Tried-and-true over generations, the smart woven netting design of string bags makes them compact, lightweight, and able to stretch to hold up to 40 lbs.

Traditional short handles make these perfect for hauling groceries. Great for the beach or gym too, since the netting allows damp clothes to air out.

Fit up to 5 in one of our StuffSacks for neat storage and transportation!

Other string shopping bags styles we carry include: fun colors and organic cotton.

Made with Fair Labor/Fair Wage.

[theboss]

10. Do people in San Francisco look for ways to make their city more expensive

I want to work in City Hall there. "Ok, team, we need to find a way to increase the average grocery bill by 1 percent immediately. Not enough poor people have moved to Oakland this month."

[natrat]

13. makes me proud to be a san franciscian

good things start in california

[mirandaod]

14. This will be good.

When I lived in Ireland, they brought this in to help solve the litter problem. Everyone complained, but soon adjusted to reusing the bags, or bringing canvas or net bags. It does help with the litter.

[Donkeyboy75]

61. We still have plenty of litter.

At least in Cork... ;)

[meganmonkey]

16. Dupe

woops

[meganmonkey]

17. I remember reading about bag usage dropping by like 95%

within a year in some country where they started charging for bags not too long ago. Eastern Europe, maybe?

How's that for a solid statistic? :shrug:

I usually bring my own canvas bags. If I forget those, I get paper bags and reuse them at home to seperate my recycling.

[Gin]

19. Thanks for this thread....this is one way I can help mother earth who has

been so good to me all these years.....I use plastic bags and never thought of the damage they do.

I am enlightened today (even though I have seen this info before) and will buy some canvas reusable bags for myself first...and then for my family.

Peace on earth begins with the individual...peace also means treating the planet the way we would like to be treated.

namaste

[Florida_Geek]

24. Google is your Friend

type "French string shopping bag" no quotes and hit I feel lucky. :evilgrin: that is only one of many.


edited to the French and string lead u to some interesting sites with shopping carts.. hehehehe

Also do not use Freedom string shopping bag for the freepers readers on here.

[devilgrrl]

27. I reuse my Trader Joes bags...

because that's where I usually shop. :silly:

Honestly, I don't think this is a half bad idea - the amount of waste we produce it is incredible. Why not encourage people to think about it by charging them for it? :shrug:

[zulchzulu]

28. In WI, you have to buy bags..bring your own or use boxes

Not all places...but most that I go to.

Don't whine. Use your own bags that you have rolled up in the back by the fridge. Or use backpacks.

Usually you get some kind of discount if you use your own bags (I used to live in SF).

[Demobrat]

29. I live in SFand I'm all for it.

I run to the little grocery store across the street about six times a day. I'll gladly bring a cloth sack instead of collecting one of those awful plastic bags each time. In fact, I don't know why I didn't think of it myself.

[Christiana]

30. They do this in Europe, and I really like the idea.

Lots of places don't give credit/forget to give credit when you bring in your own bags... I think it will be very motivating for consumers to reuse their bags. And save me the cost of paying for other people's bags when they don't credit me for bringing my own.

[Dr Fate]

36. It's fine w/ me- but where do I get dog-doo bags now? :)

n/t

[Maeve]

37. It has worked very well in Ireland

The plastic bag was so common as trash, they called it the unofficial flag of the country. They started charging for the bags and people changed their behavior. I had taken a bag over for the express purpose of using it to shop and I still use that bag here--it holds more, never tears...and is better for the environment. I still get some plastic bags (great for kitty litter clean-ups and such) but not nearly so many.

[GoSolar]

41. Excellent idea!

It should be implemented all over the US.

[Deja Q]

42. Nix plastic bags and save the oil used to make the plastic. Use paper.

Still, not a bad idea.

[LizW]

43. Terrific idea

I don't mind taking my own bags or boxes to the store. Kind of reminds me of the days when we used to gather up all the empty soda bottles around the house on Saturdays and take them back for a refund.

[daleo]

44. Or use a backpack

That is what my wife and I generally do. It makes walking to the grocery store a lot more doable too.

[maddezmom]

45. Shoppers Food Warehouse has been doing this for years in VA

and I think it's a great idea. I use laundry baskets to haul my groceries..folks here in TX think I'm a loon. :)

[depakid]

47. Excellent idea to recoup externalized costs

Americans are without question the mosy wasteful people on the planet.

They can't buy a stick of gum without asking for a sack.

I'd say charge more, but that would probably lead to too much of a backlash.

[LeftyMom]

48. Safeway gives a $0.05 bag credit

but you have to remind the cashier and they usually look at you as if you had sprouted a second head. Almost nobody bothers with the inconvenience when the savings is so small.

The local food coop (my favorite place to get groceries) doesn't give a credit to the customer but they give you a $0.05 chit that you can drop in a container for the charity of your choice (there are four options) for every bag you don't use. It seems like more customers than not use recyclable bags, generating hundreds of dollars a month for charity. Maybe a program like that on a citywide basis would be a better idea?

I don't think encouraging reusing sacks is unfair to the poor. I have over a dozen cotton grocery sacks, all were bought at thrift stores and yard sales, the nicest cost me $0.50 but some others were free from the cable company. Across the bay bridge Ikea sells some huge bags for a dollar that are nice for bulky items like clothes, I keep one in my car and use it for clothes and other light but unwieldy purchases. I'm broke as hell (LeftyDad was jobless until last month) and buying my shopping bags was hardly a burden.

[Garbo 2004]

49. I use cloth bags also. They're sturdier and take more groceries.

Several stores in my area not only sell reusuable cloth grocery bags but they also have bins to drop off the plastic bags for recycling. Which is a good way to get rid of any that you may have accumulated.

[barb162]

50. Great idea. Recycle, reuse, less pollution, less waste, etc

[Igel]

51. One word ... panniers. n/t

[catchnrelease]

52. Wild Oats

The Wild Oats where I shop gives you the option of getting 5 cents off your bill for each bag you bring in (paper or plastic) or getting what they call "wooden nickels", which can be used to give 5 cents to any of 3 offered charities. They always ask right away, so no having to ask for it.

I usually carry in almost as much as I take out, between the recycled bags, glass milk bottles for return and cardboard box with dividers for a case worth of bottled tea...........

An interesting OT side note--there are always 3 charities to choose from and they are rotated out every couple of months. Supporting such things as various arts events, cancer survivors, children's charities, spay and neuter or other pet oriented causes, ecological projects...a wide variety. The nickels are deposited in boxes with plexi-glass fronts, so you can see how full each box is. I've noticed that without fail, the pet oriented boxes, what ever they might be, are always the fullest.

[a new day]

57. This will probably be another case for fascists to call me "looney left"

But, I don't find it hard to take canvas bags with me to the market, so it shouldn't be a problem for anyone else, either.

It has had the side benefit of making it easier to sort my recycling on collection days, too. I don't need to nestle a bag of plastic bags carefully into the top corner of the recycle bin.

[Ediacara]

59. For the love of God DON'T USE CANVAS BAGS!!!!!!!!!

Unless you want your grocery checker to make voodoo dolls of you and spit into your groceries. The reason being that canvas bags are impossible to load due to their collapsing sides. Don't reuse plastic bags for the same reason.

Reuse paper bags with handles and double bag them. They stay standing for the bagger, they stay standing for you, and they last for years.

End of rant.

[Kellanved]

64. or a foldable snap-box

[tmorelli415]

60. San Franciscans: 17 Cents? Charge the "Tourists" on Your Sofa!

San Franciscans will tell you that once they moved to the city, everyone shows up to "visit" at least once. I had only lived in here for a few weeks before it started - a steady stream of friends I haven't talked to in years, their friends, family and even my childhood priest have come to town for a "visit." I know they're really just tourists who don't want to pay for a hotel when I tell them I have to work or will be out-of-town and they ask for the key.

So how about this... Everyone in San Francisco just charges their "visitors" $1 for the gas to take them to- and from- the airport, the towels and sheets that need to be taken to the laundramat when they leave, and whatever else they used while at your home for a week. I figure we'd all have at least enough to pay for a few canvass bags or even cover the extra fee ten times over. Then when they tell us that San Francisco is just feel of a bunch of loonies, we can demonstrate to them that a person *actually can* be smothered by a plastic grocery bag... "Here let me show you how dangerous they really are, Aunt Rose."

And god forbid if someone doesn't have enough to pay for a bag or forgets theirs at home! Don't they have little neighborhood markets where the grocer knows you by first name in other cities like we do in SF? (I know they've got them in NY...) The two in my neighborhood would just tell me to bring the 17 cents next time I'm back - that's how loony people treat one another in liberal places like San Francisco. Horrible, isn't it?

I always say that San Francisco is one of the few places i know of where it is "better to live there than to visit," and not the other way around. I don't mind paying the extra taxes, and I don't mind paying an extra 17 cents to live someplace so incredible that the rest of the world thinks of our home as a famous destination. Maybe if the good old conservative no-taxes crowd that thinks we're such loons would try charging 17 cents fees for grocery bags at the Piggly Wiggly they may have enough left over in their treasury to make their town worth visiting, too.

Just my two - er, I mean, 17 cents as a San Francisco taxpayer.