Pope Warns Against Changes to Marriage

[Khephra]

VATICAN CITY -- Pope John Paul II warned against attempts to tamper with what he called "the irreplaceable" institution of marriage-based family, saying Saturday that such efforts would deeply wound society.

John Paul has been an outspoken opponent of gay marriage.

His speech to participants in a meeting of the Vatican's council on family matters did not mention any specific issues. But it appeared to refer to moves by some countries and cities to recognize marriage between homosexuals and to grant social benefits deriving from marriage -- such as inheritance or pensions -- to cohabiting couples who are not married.

"Family, based on marriage, is a natural, irreplaceable institution and fundamental element of the common good of every society," the pope said. "Whoever destroys this fundamental fabric of human coexistence, by not respecting its identity and by distorting its tasks, delivers a deep wound to society and often provokes irreparable damage."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-vatican-marriage,0,215549.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

[Liberal Veteran]

1. Yeah? If marriage is so great, then why aren't priests allowed to marry?

Huh?

Huh?

[DemBones DemBones]

13. Priests aren't allowed to marry because they serve God and the people

who are the Churc. They are, in essence, married to their vocation as priests.

People have to make choices. Men who want to be Catholic priests must choose that celibate vocation instead of the vocation of marriage and parenthood that most people choose. In every society I know of, priests, shamans, holy men have always been set apart in some way from the rest of the people. By definition, their focus is beyond the everyday.

The reasons behind the beginning of priestly celibacy are less noble: when priests still married and had families, they were leaving too mucn property to their families. I suppose the Church wanted to have them leave property to the Church, but don't recall the details; think it has something to do with taxes and princes, too, but it's related to money.

Today it's also, I suppose, partly about having enough money to pay priests.

It's difficult for the Church to support all the programs it supports and pay the priests and religious (nuns, monks) more than a modest salary, much less provide benefits for families, too.

Still, there are some real spiritual benefits to the Church in having people dedicate their lives to serving God without the distractions of family life.

Peace.

[Demeter]

124. Priests Were Finally Forbidden to Marry

when the Church saw how much wealth they were passing to secular offspring and the lawsuits over inheritance. The Church wanted it all. Martin Luther was not just having a bad hair day.

[VegasWolf]

15. Priests were allowed to marry up until about 380 AD at which time

too many families were contesting church properties in
will settlements. The church, always assuming that money
only flows in one direction ( to them ) were deeply troubled
by this and subsequently forbid priests to marry. This
refusal to acknowledge the basic human needs of the
sheep who form the body of the church has led to all
kinds of perversions including pedophilia. It is an
outdated practice few religions adhere to.

[Khephra]

21. So very true

The actual practice of preventing Priests from being married is actually anti-conservative and anti-tradition since it wasn't forbidden in the early days. They disguise a post-Christ dogma as being "the way it's always been" when it's nothing of the sort.

[TankLV]

52. Only "ROMAN" Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry.

Our Catholic priests have always been married - our current one has 2 daughters.

All eastern rite priests are allowed - preferred - to marry. Have been for a couple thousand years.

[LiberalFighter]

73. I was told that can be married if they were married...

prior to becoming a priest.

[DemBones DemBones]

104. Not true, unless they were

married Orthodox or Episcopal priests who converted to the Roman rite and are then allowed to be ordained priests in the Roman rite.

Many of us think this is quite unfair to the many Catholic priests who left the priesthood because they wanted to marry, sometimes because they fell in love with a woman while still in the priesthood, sometimes because seeing old friends who weren't priests marry and have families made them realize they wanted the companionship and other rewards of family life, too.

Many of the former priests who are married still want to be priests but are not allowed to be. They have a large organization called CORPUS. The C stands for Community (or maybe it's Conference?) , while ORPUS = "Of Reserve Priests US." These men are still faithful Catholics who now have no official role in the Church. They resent the manner in which Episcopal and Orthodox priests are allowed to change to the Roman rite despite being married. (They resent the Church's policy, not the priests who convert to the Roman rite.)

I think the CORPUS members should be brought back into serving the people as priests. I also think priests should have the option to choose marriage or celibacy, when they enter the priesthood, and to later change their minds and marry if they find tha celibacy is not best for them.

I believe that Celibate priests can serve better than married ones if they can cope with celibacy. Remaining unmarried gives anyone, in any profession, the opportunity to truly focus on their goals. Focusing all their energy on service to God's church is a noble pursuit, but priests are human and many it difficult to remain chaste.

St. Paul can be chauvinistic and I don't go along with all that he wrote but when he said that celibacy was the highest calling he had a point, spiritually speaking and theoretically speaking. In other words, if men *can* live a celibate life, good for them, but St. Paul also said it was "better to marry than to burn."

I've read that loneliness is actually a bigger problem for priests than "burning" for sex, that they miss companionship of living with others more than they miss having sex. Today, many parishes are assigned only one priest, meaning many priests live alone in the rectory, whereas in the past there was usually at least one other priest sharing the rectory, meaning there was someone to eat dinner with, talk to in the evening, etc. But, apart from the issue of loneliness, priests ARE having sex, and they're having it with other priests/ men, with women, and, in a small percent of cases, with teenagers, with an even smaller number sexually abusing young children.
There is no reason to believe that allowing priests to marry will stop some from having sex with men, with women not their wives, and with teenagers and children.

We know that throughout society many homosexuals and pedophiles marry to have a more normal life as a cover for their true inclinations, so what would stop priests who are homosexual or pedophile from marrying just to have a "beard"? We also know that married men who are pedophiles may have a supposedly normal sexual relationship with their wives but they molest children, anyway. And pedophiles have a strong tendency to go into the priesthood or other ministry, or the rabbinate, or into teaching, coaching, Boy Scouts, or Little League -- anything to put them near children.

Bottom line is that I support allowing priests to marry, and think I'll see it happen in my lifetime, but I do not expect it to end pedophilia or homosexuality in the priesthood. The idea that it would is naive and prolongs misunderstanding the problem of pedophilia in society as a whole as well as in the Catholic Church. The priesthood is also a safe haven for many homosexual men since it gives them an excuse not to marry. Some people will behave badly under any circumstance, breaking their vows to engage in prohibited sex acts. Married people do commit adultery, after all, and they have taken a vow that excludes sex outside the marriage.

[TankLV]

115. You are mistaken; ALL eastern rite CATHOLIC priests can be married.

And these are CATHOLIC priests, not "orthodox" - just as much "catholic" as the roman or any other rite.

I should know - I am a Ukrainian CATHOLIC - not "orthodox". Some refer to us as "Byzantine" or Greek" or "Eastern" rite, depending if there is a large enough Ukrainian population to support a "Ukrainian Catholic" parrish.

[CatholicEug]

119. But

In the orthodox church (at least the Russian and Greek), bishops must be celibates.

[TankLV]

110. That is correct. The point is there are married priests - have been.

Only the "roman" catholics are prohibited.

Our first priest had two sons that were both killed in WWII.

We also had a really old one - at least I thought so - but he was almost 20 or 30 years younger than the first one - seems he was a product of first the Nazi's and then the Soviets justice. I was in utter shock for a boy of 8 or 9 at the time.

There are 12 "rites" to the catholic church - 6 "western" and 6 "eastern".

[GinaMaria]

101. Celebacy does not lead to pedophilia

Please show me research that disputes this if you have it. Your statement doesn't make sense. It's an old bias against women. If women would only supply the sex, then he wouldn't touch the child, blah blah blah. There are plenty of married men who are pedophiles, unfortunately. They produce their own victims with their wives or marry women with children.

Wouldn't it be easier for a priest who wanted sex to go to a prostitute? Pay for it. Consenting adults etc. Why choose child rape? Why choose a criminal path, unless they are already pedophiles before the vow of celebacy. Pedophiles choose all sorts of paths that will give them access to victims. Given the church's policy on pedophile priests, I'm surprised more pedophiles haven't converted :eyes:

Pedophilia is independent of marriage.

[DemBones DemBones]

105. Exactly! I especially like your point that

women are often blamed if their husbands are pedophiles when the fact is that pedophiles may have adult sexual relationships with women and/or men, but that never keeps them from wanting sex with children -- and they usually act on their urges.

Women, rather than men, have also typically gotten the most blame when we have a child who differs from the norm in any way. We're blamed if our child develops as a pedophile, just as we are blamed if we have a child who is gay/lesbian.


(IMO, the reasons more pedophiles didn't convert and become priests to take advantage of the stupidity of some of our bishops, were that they either 1) hated Catholics too much to fake it, or 2) didn't want to deal with all the anti-Catholic bigotry in this country, which is well and amply represented in this DU thread.)

[VegasWolf]

107. That most certianly is the Catholic position. If you do a simple

Google search on "celebacy pedophilia" you will find thousands
of hits supporting both viewpoints. I, for one, an ex-catholic, do not believe the church's assertion.

Celebacy is an unnatural state of being, one that is enforced in no other religion, and noteven in all of Catholicism.

<snip>
Celebacy has been argued from the time of the Council of Elvira in 308 A.D. through Carthage Three and Four 397 A.D., and up to Christmas 800 A.D. when Pope Leo the Third placed the crown on the head of Charlemagne, and then up to 1139 A.D. when Pope Innocent the Second pronounced clerical marriage invalid, to the Council of Trent, between 1545 and 1562 A.D., at which the Catholic Church did, finally, face Protestantism, celibacy was argued.
</snip>

<snip>
Pope Adrian the Second, in 867A.D., ascended to the papacy. But before naming the him pope, the Church had one small wrinkle with which to contend. Pope Adrian the Second was married!

Yet no matter; he became pope.
<snip>

One of the largest issues was the question of property, wealth. If you have no family, no wife and kids, you have no one to whom you can give your wealth. It naturally stands to go to the Church if is priestly wealth.
<snip>

From "The Politics of Celibacy Undercut Catholic Theology", by
William F. Finucane


Edit for typo and attribution.

[CatholicEug]

120. Christ was a celibate

and supported celibacy for his disciples and followers ... I refer you to the statement that in the afterlife, no one is given in marriage ... and that some become eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of God ... "They are like angels"

That's Christ, not Paul, saying those words.

[Demeter]

123. That's Somebody's Apocryphal Quotation

and an argument of faith, not fact.

[CatholicEug]

135. Evidence?

[Demeter]

138. MY Point, Exactly!

[VegasWolf]

129. There is no proof Christ was a celibate, and for a man to be

unmarried in those days was exceedingly rare. You
would think that someone would have commented on this
unnatural state of being. Christ only became celibate
after the Council of Nicea voted ( by a narrow margin )
him a god. Having wives and mistresses would have fucked up
the story Constantine was trying to sell.

[CatholicEug]

134. Two points

To the person above who said Christ's teaching on celibacy is not canonical ... then what's the evidence that Christ said anything? To the Jesus Seminar with you!

Regarding "No proof that Christ was a celibate," I refer you to two items from the standard Gospels ... 1) there's no reference to Jesus being married ... 2) He taught celibacy

It's a little hard to prove a negative (there's no proof Christ was a celibate), but there IS evidence that Christ was a celibate.

As for your statement that it would be very unusual for a person to be unmarried ... True. It's also unusual for a person to be born of a virgin, perform healing miracles, forgive sins (even of prostitutes! :) ), suffer a scandalous death on the cross and be raised from the dead. But if you're a believer in Christ, then you accept these things.

[VegasWolf]

139. I'm not a believer in christ or god, I don't take the Kierkegaard

Leap of Faith, I follow Nietze safely back down the mountain.

[boi1946]

142. Christ did not teach celibacy...

St Paul was the instigator of all that, in fact, you could think of him as the first evangelical, since he wanted everyone to remain pure until the Second Coming, which he was convinced would happen in his lifetime.
It was very unusual for a Jewish man of that time not to be married, in fact, marriages were often arranged by families when the children had not yet reached puberty.
Christ celebrated marriage turning water into wine at the feast of Cana. He said "Suffer the little children to come unto me." Kinda hard for that to occur when you're advocating celibacy. The gospels that were not included in the Bible as we know it, and the Dead Sea Scrolls strongly suggest that Mary Magdalen (who was not a prostitute, and the Catholic Church has agreed they were mistaken on this--only not very loudly) anyway, Mary Magdalen may have been Jesus's wife.

[Sin]

22. HBO

had a special out about that was very informative
about priest celibacy and the recent scandals it goes into why they cant marry among other things its quiet informative :)

[Voltaire99]

111. The last great network. (n/t)

[smirkymonkey]

57. Because children under the age of 16 aren't of legal age to marry.

:evilgrin: Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

Personally, I consider the position of the pope irrelevant, so his words mean nothing to me. Except that it pisses me off when the Vatican proceeds to influence matters of state with their corrupt version of christianity.

[Demeter]

122. That Was the Punchline for an Old Joke----

If the Pope no playa the game, he no maka the rules!

[LostInAnomie]

2. Maybe he should worry about his priest humping little kids...

... instead of grown men and women trying to live a monogamous married life.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. Maybe YOU should pay attention. This pope has addressed

that issue many times and made it very clear that pedophiles are NOT welcome in the priesthood. He has instructed those who run seminaries to do a better job of weeding out the perverts and has said that any priest guilty of such an act must be removed from active priesthood.

He has said there must be no more moving a priest accused of abuse to another parish and that bishops must not cover up for pedophiles. He told the American bishops to come up with a better policy, a formal policy, on dealing with these cases. (They did.)

What else do you want him to do?

You're suggesting that because some priests have sinned, he should stop preaching against sin. That makes no sense.

[LostInAnomie]

19. Well thats odd...

... because there is a priest in the parish down the road from me at St. James that has admitted to molesting kids who is still serving on Saturdays. The diocese just lets him keep serving.

I'll tell you what makes no fucking sense. He is the most powerful man in the Catholic church but he doesn't have the power to tell his subordinates to force real issues like the corporeal works of mercy instead of preaching about fucking bullshit like gay marriage. He allows them drift further and further from the true teachings of Jesus about changing your own life through good works and thereby changing the world, to the subjects that only effect other people who probably don't go to the Catholic church in the first place like gay marriage and abortion. Priest don't ask the parishioners to do anything that would actually make them reflect on their own lives anymore. As far as I am concerned the priests have turned to Pharisees. They are the ones swallowing camels and straining gnats. That is why I left the Catholic church after 20 years, and being a alter boy for 8 of them.

The Pope isn't a stupid man. He knows damn good and well what leads to problems like abortion and it ain't immorality. It is hopelessness. But he would rather stick to his idiotic dogma than asks his followers to make changes that would actually help.

[goddess40]

40. Isn't Cardinal Law hiding out from the law in Vatican City

for his work in helping the pedophiles continue their nasty work? The Pope should have handed him over, not help him avoid prosecution.

[TankLV]

116. No fair citing FACTS!

No fair!

[Demeter]

126. Thank YOU, TankLV

Honesty is so refreshing!

[smirkymonkey]

59. "We must stop the children from talking!!!"

[Cheswick2.0]

42. What is sinful about two people of the same sex getting married?

?
why is that a sin and how does one couple in a same sex marriage have any effect on the marriage of two heterosexuals? Why would their marriage then become less sacred?

[LiberalFighter]

67. I don't see the RC dictating who other churches can marry or vice versus.

I don't see any church dictating that marriages can only be performed in churches and/or by the clergy.

Just as a church does not and cannot dictate how other churches conduct their marriages they cannot dictate to the government or other individuals. They can refuse to perform marriages within their own church as many have done. Priests refusing to marry if they weren't both Catholic unless they converted. Ministers of other faiths refusing to marry those even with similar doctrine like if both were Lutheran or both were Baptist but not of the same Synod.


How about divorces?? Doesn't Matthew 19:6 say "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder?" If marriage is such a sacred institution then why all the divorces?

Divorces are only official when they are granted by the government. Yes, the Roman Catholic church grants annulments but it only prevents them from marrying another Catholic or marrying in their church not by a JP. While every other church (maybe not Jewish) do not provide a way to divorce within their faith. Churches can't even perform divorces and send in the documentation to the government as they do for marriages.

[TankLV]

117. Guess you were asleep when those CATHOLIC bishops and other assorted

idiots told everyone how to vote - that Kerry was to be denied communion and excommunicated for supporting choice, etc. - huh?

How bunkerboy and only repukes were christian enough?

Missed that, did ya?

[LiberalFighter]

54. He told the American bishops to come up with a better policy?

Why is he telling them to come up with a better policy? If he is so concerned about the scandal he (the vatican) should have the policy in that regards.

[BuddhaGirl]

58. The pope has NOT addressed the issue suffiiciently!

why the HELL is Cardinal Law comfortably ensconced in a big church in Rome now???

He should fucking be in jail for what he did!

[MichiganVote]

75. The church still moves priests around. Check out this year's Dallas News

Also, the Bishops promised audits that are now reduced to a paper filing annually despite the objections of many factions in the church.

The priests that are the most problematic are those who have affairs or may seduce women in their parishes w/o sanctions. How many? Who knows? The church won't touch it.

What else can the Pope do? Excommunicate those who have "sinned" by committing gross criminal acts against children.

These criminals are free because of the cover up's not inspite of them.

[Lindacooks]

106. No, he's suggested that he should clean his own house

instead of preventing adults from making a commitment to each other, just because of his bigoted Old Testament views. And his years of silence on this issue, while his bishops moved pedophile priests around to different parishes to molest more children, is inexcusable. BTW, where's the mention of this:

"Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
female, povided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
he period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the o! dor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

If you hold the Bible as being inviolate, you can't pick and choose which verses you support and which you don't. Not even the Pope.

[VegasWolf]

133. Don't forget the big one, eating shellfish! levictus has no less

than 5 abominations against that. Only one abomination
for a man lying with another man as he would a woman.
I can only conclude its 5 times worse to eat lobster than
it is to be gay. Imagine being gay and eating lobster.
The fundies love to quote levictus because he is the
only one abominating homosexuality. levictus is one
fucked up dude and his writings are so contradictory
that they make bush look like a genius.

[sonicx]

3. ain't it about time for God to cast Massachusetts into the sea?

set Canada on fire?

:crazy:

[DemBones DemBones]

16. God doesn't work that way, not since the OT days.

God ir, in one sense, "pro-choice"; He gives us the ability and the free will to choose what we will do.

One of the purposes of religion is to encourage and help people to recognize sin and to turn away from it.

[saigon68]

50. I appreciate your point of view

Which as I understand it is------ " don't kill the messenger."

As a recent convert I struggled with the notion the religion was corrupt, when it is a small (less than 1%) minority who have gone astray. Unfortunately their crimes have "tarred and feathered" the other 99% of the clergy.

I do however have some serious problems with the rush toward wealth building and acquisition of real estate our diocese has commence about 5 years ago.

I also see the church entering a secular political arena that it should avoid. We should be working more for helping and bringing Christ to the poor and the oppressed in the world and less about whether 2 gay men or women wish to live together.

[LiberalFighter]

69. As to the wealth building and property acquistion...

that has been ongoing since at least the Middle Ages. It is not something new. It might be new that other faiths are doing more of it.

[VegasWolf]

95. Saigon, you coulda talked to us ex-catholics before you

made that decision. Peace.

[bri_in_austin]

51. Okay I don't want to make you mad, but since you are defending Catholicism

Maybe you could be sensitive to Judaism in the process and not say "the OT", but say the Torah or Bible. Since, you are defending religion and all.

[LiberalFighter]

68. The original purpose of religion was to provide order and control.

Keep the people in line dictate what others do.

[VegasWolf]

94. Exactly, and most importantly, provide a path to wealth when

an success oriented young man was not fortunate to be born in
the right family.

[Demeter]

128. John Adams, in the Musical 1776

"I do believe you've laid a curse on North America!
A curse that we here now rehearse in Philadelphia!

A second Flood, a simple famine, plagues of locusts everywhere,
Or a cataclysimic earthquake, I'd accept with some dispair.

But no, You sent us Congress! Good God, Sir, was that fair!"

[FM Arouet666]

4. The Pope?

Honestly why should humankind listen to the pope. He leads a church which has persecuted adherents to science, subjugates women, is historically filled with corruption, and now proclaims that gay marriage will wound society. After what the Catholic church has done in human history, I am surprised society is still alive. Absolute rubbish.

[The Doctor.]

7. Catholicism lives today because once upon a time...

"Every Sperm was Sacred" and that gave the Catholic Church a vast following of proletarian subjects who were too busy supporting large families to devote any thought to their Hypocrisy.

[LiberalFighter]

71. All humans should not listen to the Pope or at least blindly follow...

The Jews, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. have their own doctrine to follow. The Pope is not the leader of the world NOR is he a separate state despite the Vatican not being under Italian control. Likewise, the Pope or any other religious leader should not be recognized by accepting an ambassador to our country or other countries. And other countries should not be sending ambassadors to the Vatican.

The Catholic church is not the only corrupt institution or persecutor. We have had others throughout history and it continues to this day especially by the fundies.

[LynnTheDem]

5. 1. Canada is doing very well, thanks pope. #2 WTF would HE know about it.

ENOUGH with the human suffering incurred by YOU & your DOGMA, popie. PISS OFF and LET PEOPLE LIVE THEIR OWN LIVES.

[The Doctor.]

8. "My Karma ran over his Dogma" n/t

[LynnTheDem]

9. I LOVE that one!

And plan to steal it for use whenever possible. :D

[The Doctor.]

10. (I stole it too!) nt

[lies and propaganda]

6. When the fucking Pope cleans his house....

...he can tell me how to clean mine.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. See my response #14 ablove. nt

[TankLV]

55. People in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks.

Tell your pope to keep his stinking nose out of MY life!

And start sending those pedophiles to prison instead of hiding them in the fucking VATICAN!

He is aiding and abetting criminals. Period.

Shut the fuck up, you ignorant bastard pope!

[LiberalFighter]

72. Careful... there are many ways to clean house...

some not acceptable and some very drastic. What works for him doesn't always work for others.

On second thought I would be amenable to the Pope using hopefully drastic methods with gw*. All in favor say AYE!

[NYC Liberal]

11. If he doesn't like gay marriage...

then he should just not get one and shut the fuck up.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. So your philosophy, presumably, would extend to

"If you don't like murder, don't commit one."

No? Oh, you think murder is *wrong*.

The pope, and millions of other people, think it's *wrong* to change the definition of marriage, believing that marriage should be between one man and one woman, no exceptions.

Unmarried couples, whatever sex the partners are, can get many of the benefits of marriage through civil unions, which are more widely supported. And they could work to add to the benefits available to those in civil unions.

[sonicx]

20. murder/stealing causes harm to other people...

gay marriage doesn't.

[Charlie Brown]

25. If you believe this

then you're not adhering to the Golden Rule. Explain to me how two adults who love each other are not entitled to the same conditions as you are (I'd better not hear anything about pedophilia or besitality).

I know it's "in" now to criticize the idea of gay marriage since the "moral issue" hicks gave Bush the election. However, that's no excuse for lowering the bar on what is essentially an equal rights issue. Christians need to learn that their beliefs are not a part of our legal system. If they want to continue preaching hate in their Churches, fine, just leave those of us who DON'T AGREE alone. I don't care if it costs us Congress, the states, the country, we should not concede this issue.

[doreme]

28. Exactly!

We are poised on the edge of the event horizon vis a vis doing what is right or doing what is popular. I would prefer to see the Dems do the right thing, take their hits, and still have credibility as a party of the people when the smoke clears.

Unfortunately thet seem to be racing in the opposite direction.

[Dogmudgeon]

26. The Church should then renounce Marriage's secular privileges

Marriage, as consecrated by the Church, is also privileged by the State.

If the Church (Roman Catholic as well as other denominations) wishes to keep its moral monopoly over Marriage, it should insist that Marriage be entirely a religious sacrament and not a special legal category with financial and civil privileges.

--bkl

[davhill]

35. I agree completely

The only reason the state got into the marriage business was to see that kids were taken care of. The tax benifits were to discourage both spouses from working so one could be the care giver. The inheritance laws were to assure that kids would be cared for after death of a parent. There are other ways society can take care of its offspring now. Lots of couples are dispensing with marriage all together.

[SnowBack]

38. Why should I have to adhere to your bigoted belief of what marriage is?

Start taxing the Catholic church. They want to play politics, make em pay taxes...

[Cheswick2.0]

44. how does gay marriage hurt society?

Why is it a sin.

I realize you and the pope think it is a sin. I want to know where in the bible or the teachings of Christ does it say anything about homosexuality being a sin?

[CatholicEug]

125. Can I answer this?

Most people I know who don't like the Church's teachings on sexuality often resort to arguments like, "What do celibates know about sex?" or "Jesus never said anything about sex, but he said a lot about helping the poor!" (I heard James Carville say this last week).

Actually, that's not true. First, Christ taught much on sexual morality ... He was clear that living together (fornication), prostitution, and other acts of "sexual lewdness" (His words) were sinful. It is true that he didn't condemn homosexuality specifically ... but he made it clear that when a "man leaves his parents and clings to his wife," that man is being a fruitful member of society.

In summary, Christ said a lot about sexuality ... and it was always on the strict side. He even advocated celibacy.

[TankLV]

56. Uh - NO THEY CAN'T according to this imecile pope!

He also forbids any kind of "civil unions", benefits, etc.

Didn't you read the damn awful things he spews?!?!?!

HE DOESN'T WANT "ANY" THING THAT IS EVEN SIMILAR TO "MARRIAGE" either!

No visitation rights, no inheritance rights, no health benefits, no NOTHING!

Stay the fuck out of MY life!

[LiberalFighter]

87. Let the churches do what they want in their church.

They cannot and should not dictate to the government or people of other faith what they are permitted to do.

The government currently provides two different types of marriages. Religious and Civil.

If marriages were religious then only the clergy could perform them. And if marriage is strictly a religious institution then why is there a distinction between religious and civil marriages?

[rhyfeddu]

93. Except that civil unions have been outlawed, too,..

...along with gay marriage, in many of the state amendments that just passed. No rights vaguely resembling marriage are allowed. Just so we don't get too uppity...

Not saying this is the Pope's doing, just pointing out that that is becoming NOT an option. (Tho' I could argue that the inherit message of intolerance in the Pope's declarations foments a climate that gives tacit approval to those who wish to increase and diversify their prejudice against gays, yada yada).

edit: Mmm, trying to respond to Dem Bones' #17 above - not stacking right....dunno

[Emily Jane]

100. not good enough

There are some religions that are cool with gay marriage. Unitarian Universalists should be allowed to get MARRIED in their church. We shouldn't force the prejudices of the "majority" religion on others.

And no, that argument does not extend to murder.

[Left Brain]

12. I wonder if His Holiness

even realizes what he said there.

Family, HOWEVER it is defined, IS "a natural, irreplaceable institution and fundamental element of the common good of every society." It is those who insist on limiting the definition of a family that are hell-bent on destroying "this fundamental fabric of human coexistence."

Over and over again here in Oregon the fundies profess that anything besides their blessed man-woman union "weakens" and "hurts" the institution of marriage. Yet not once -- not ONCE -- have they said how. Tell me HOW the union of any two people who have made a loving commitment to one another hurts marriage.

[nolabels]

23. Married people worry about religious positions

The missionary one just don't work for me anymore :shrug:

[renaissanceguy]

24. Hahahahaha

I prefer to be on my knees.

[LiberalFighter]

90. What is the heathen position?

And shouldn't the missionary position be just for those that are doing mission work?

[0007]

27. The wound to society has been religion and perhaps the biggest

gash has been submitted by the Catholic Church.

If your against abortions don't get one.

If your against gay marriages, don't marry a gay.

Why must these people that are against these issues want me to me to think and believe like they do?

To some it is a rabbit and to other's it is a duck.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

32. That is a useless argument

People opposed to abortions consider them murder. Telling them to ignore them is like asking me to ignore Darfur.

[0007]

53. Only the ignorant my dear, none other.

What do you do for the people in Sudan?

[Deja Q]

29. Gay marriage = bad. Divorce = ok. Sham marriages = ok. Does not the pope

realize he's out of touch in terms of how the US works? More than half our marriages divorce; with money/finances being an excuse before the wife gets half of everything. Then you have creatures like Donald Trump raising the limbo bar by saying 'get a prenup first!' which only attacks the concept of marriage as being a partnership.

Forget the pope. That big cap he wears was a prototype design for :dunce:

[LiberalFighter]

91. Of course the Pope is out of touch!! He is or is getting senile or..

something. If he was a CEO or president of a company the board and/or stockholders would had forced him out because of his medical condition.

[3days]

30. Annulment

Why do all these people think marriage is somehow attacked when it's a gay marriage. Yet he feels it's fine to have a marriage that did happen to be annulled? My parents were married for over 18 years and then got divorced and then got the marriage annulled. In effect saying saying the marriage never happened. Making me a bastard. So whenever someone calls me a bastard, I have to agree:-)

[Massachusetts]

31. Will some one please

wake up the Pope (just to see if he is alive), and then let him go back to sleep. Here is another example of an individual who has the POWER to make things "right", but he can't "pull the trigger".

Hey John Paul heres an idea, focus on fighting against mans inhumanity to man, from the sadistic clergy in the church to the sadistic power brokers on this planet. You've got the flock and the $$$$$$$, put them towards a better use.

Gay marriage shouldn't even appear on the radar screen.O8)

[progressivedancer]

37. Some information

I'm sick of this debate. It just hurts how me and my constituents are marginalized during these debates. We are people too, not just a fucking TOPIC.

this is a great website that supports our cause, please open your hearts and minds to it.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Get_Involved1&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=17604

Here is an example of what they say


Why same-sex couples
want to marry.


Many same-sex couples want the right to legally marry because they are in love, either they just met the love of their lives, or more likely, they have spent the last 10,20 or 50 years with that person —and they want to honor their relationship in thegreatest way our society has to offer, by making a public commitment to stand
together in good times and bad, through all the joys and challenges family life brings. Many parents want the right to marry because they know it offers children a vitalsafety net and guarantees protections that unmarried parents cannot provide. And still other people — both gay and straight — are fighting for the right of
same-sex couples to marry because they recognize that it is simply not fair to denysome families the protections all other families are eligible to enjoy. Currently in the United States, same-sex couples in long-term, committed relationships pay higher taxes and are denied basic protections and rights granted to married heterosexual couples. Among them:


>> Hospital visitation. Married couples have the automatic right to visit each other in the hospital and make medical decisions. Same-sex couples can be denied the right to visit a sick or injured loved one in the hospital.


>> Social Security benefits. Married people receive Social Security payments upon the death of a spouse. Despite paying payroll taxes, gay and lesbian partners receive no Social Security survivor benefits — resulting in an average annual income loss of $5,528 upon the death of a partner.


>> Immigration. Americans in binational relationships are not permitted to petition for their same-sex partners to immigrate. As a result, they are often forced to separate or move to another country.



>> Health insurance. Many public and private employers provide medical coverage to the spouses of their employees, but most employers do not provide coverage to the life partners of gay and lesbian employees. Gay employees who do receive health coverage for their partners must pay federal income taxes on the value of the insurance.



>> Estate taxes. A married person automatically inherits all the property of his or her deceased spouse without paying estate taxes. A gay or lesbian taxpayer is forced to pay estate taxes on property inherited from a deceased partner.




>> Retirement savings. While a married person can roll a deceased
spouse’s 401(k) funds into an IRA without paying taxes, a gay or lesbian American who inherits a 401(k) can end up paying up to 70 percent of it in taxes and penalties.



>> Family leave. Married workers are legally entitled to unpaid leave from their jobs to care for an ill spouse. Gay and lesbian workers are not entitled to family leave to care for their partners.



>> Nursing homes. Married couples have a legal right to live together in nursing homes. Because they are not legal spouses, elderly gay or lesbian couples do not have the right to spend their last days living together in nursing homes.



>> Home protection. Laws protect married seniors from being forced to sell their homes to pay high nursing home bills; gay and lesbian seniors have no such protection.



>> Pensions. After the death of a worker, most pension plans pay survivor benefits only to a legal spouse of the participant. Gay and lesbian partners are excluded from such pension benefits.

[LiberalFighter]

92. I want to know... is the Pope making all the decisions or is someone

else pulling the chain?

[alcuno]

33. Marriage is a sacrament in the Catholic Church.

And it's a sacrament taken between a man and a woman. The Church will never change its stance on the issue. I don't know why so many here get so worked up when the Holy Father comes out opposing gay marriage.

So after stating the obvious, everyone takes it as an opportunity to again bash the Church. Except we're not your biggest problem.

[Nightwing]

36. Completely Agree

It's not the Catholic church anyone should fear; It's the Evangelicals that have muscled their way to the very top of our nations mindset. Their plans and actions are far more dangerous to the future of the USA than anything the Pope does or says.

Men such as Falwell, Robertson, Graham, Jones and so many others, have the ear of this administration and would love nothing more than to crush the Catholic church, MY church, into oblivion.

Let me just say before those attempts take place we Catholics will fight to the death to protect and defend our faith. We respect others of Christian persuasion but are extremely tired of any denomination seeking to end our faith.

[alcuno]

43. I heard the head of the S. Baptist Convention the other night.

I think that's what it's called. Anyways, I realized the HUGE difference between Catholics and fundamentalists when listening to this guy talk about abortion. He wanted abortion to be illegal, have the doctor's prosecuted, but not the women. He labeled the women as victims and assigned them NO responsibility.

The Catholic Church teaches responsibility for ones own decisions and in a moral sense, would hold the woman to a greater degree of responsibility than the doctor.

Catholics are not so interested in using the law and government as they are in using moral persuasion.

[Cheswick2.0]

47. When the bible says over and over that life begins with the first breath

why is abortion a sin?

[alcuno]

60. Catholics aren't real big bible folks.

We are taught that sin is in the heart of the sinner. In other words, if I believe it to be a sin, it is and I must seek forgiveness. If in your heart, you don't think it's a sin, it's not.

Now, the fact that Catholics are taught that abortion is the taking of life (not a life) will obviously sway ones own belief on the idea of it being a sin.

[SnowBack]

97. Keep your religion off my body.

Believe whatever you want, I don't care. But tell your church to stay out of my life.

:mad:

[CatholicEug]

130. If you're not Cathol.ic

What does it matter to you?

[CatholicEug]

131. Word

to your mother! :)

[Massachusetts]

45. Yeah so......................

Who made up the sacrament Bill of Rights? Jesus? God? ....Not

The Catholic church better get its act together its going the way of the Do Do bird. It also forgot one of the unwritten Commandments, "live and let live"

Its just bunch of old men running a dying dynasty, and I'm a Catholic (its Friday want a Big Mac?) O8)

[alcuno]

63. "live and let live" the unwritten commandment.

Hardly.

[Massachusetts]

80. Hardly

Hardly what??????????????O8)

[Cheswick2.0]

46. Because Catholics vote according to what the Pope says

Question: Why is the sacrement of marriage only between a man and a woman?
Why shouldn't I criticize the Pope when he makes these political statements?
Why doesn't he forget about abortion and homosexuals and focus on war and economic exploitation?

[alcuno]

61. Catholics vote according to the Pope? You have to be kidding.

If that were true, Kerry would have blown away *. Check out the Catholic vote by state. I think you'll see that it coincides with that red state/blue state thing.

Marriage is a sacrament between a man and a woman because of procreation. Catholics married in the Church pledge to raise their children in the Church.

[Merlin]

66. A majority of Catholics voted AGAINST Kerry. The Pope DOES have influence.

That's why these pronouncements matter.

The Vatican is a bastion of right wing fundamentalism.

It doesn't bother me that he would denounce gay marriage--which is a mere frivolity. What DOES bother me is that he apparently also denounces civil unions. That is as preposterous and medieval as this deluded, addlepated pontiff.

[alcuno]

77. I'll repeat. Catholic vote falls along blue state/red state lines.

And when did Kerry ever bother to try and "court" the Catholic vote? Maybe instead of going into a black church in the south, he could have gone to a few Catholic churches.

[Merlin]

79. And I repeat. A majority of Catholics voted AGAINST Kerry. Hello?

Every Catholic in the country knew Kerry was one of them. But the Vatican and the Catholic priesthood establishment in the US is overwhelmingly reactionary right wing, and had no compuntions about using the pulpit to subtly and not so subtly urge people to vote Bush.

Kerry got less of a percentage of Catholics than Gore.

The fact that the Catholic vote didn't break in his favor is ample testimony to the political power of the pulpit in the Catholic church.

[alcuno]

84. Hello? The closer you live to fundamentalists the more likely you are to

vote like them. Every Catholic knew Kerry was a Catholic? Hardly. I saw one of those idiotic polls in the weeks prior to the election indicating that as many as 40% of the population didn't know Kerry was a Catholic. Being a Catholic, I know we're not that much sharper than the rest of the population.

[Merlin]

89. As a Catholic for more than 50 years...

I also know that Catholics are very aware when another Catholic is on a major ticket. That's always been true.

40% of the population may not have known. But that's completely, totally different from suggesting that any substantial percentage of Catholic voters didn't know.

And I have plenty of first hand evidence that Catholic priests in general--even in very liberal areas--detest liberals and desteded Kerry. I refuse to believe they did not take their cue for this from the Vatican's repeated insinuation of anti-liberal Papal pronouncements during the campaign.

[3days]

48. Then how come a man and a woman can get married by a judge

or a ship captain
or a protestant priest
or a methodist priest

How about the Catholics own catholic marriage and let anyone else who wants to get married in their own ceremony do it their own way.

[alcuno]

62. Catholics not married in the Church aren't considered married in the

eyes of the Church and fellow Catholics. Civil marriage means very little without the sacrament.

[3days]

74. Well I wouldn't say it means very little to the voter *

[3days]

76. Bush is not a catholic

and he is not proposing an ammendmant stating that a "Catholic" marriage is between a man and a woman. He and the immoral minority are saying that ALL marriage is between a man and a woman.

[alcuno]

85. "but he played one on TV." Actually, he did a much better job than

Kerry at playing Catholic. I was saying it all last spring that he should play up his Catholicism.

[VegasWolf]

98. So, I guess all those poor people living in the back roads of

China, they who love their families, are good citizes,
raise their children to the best of their abilities.
These people are just hosed, huh?

[alcuno]

99. Well they are stuck living under communist rule.

Other than that, I'm sure everything is just peachy. What are you talking about? Not being married in the Catholic Church? Are they Catholic?

[VegasWolf]

108. Exactly, you made the point that they are not married in the eyes of the

church. So what is the practical consequence of this? Will something BAD happen to these people, like dying and going to hell, or maybe not getting into heaven?

OR, is not being married in the eyes of the church simply a no-op and
unimportant? That's my take!

[MichiganVote]

78. So if I say that something is sacred in my house it should be sacred

in yours? The RCC may not be my biggest problem but they sure hit the radar screen for many and that is the plain fact of the matter. Catholics can raise as a big a cry and hue as they want about being judged unfairly but facts are facts. The fact is that this "church" deliberately mislead, concealed, and still conceals the sexual rubbish they call priests to the detriment of children all throughout the US. Not to mention the entire world.

The priests who sexually molested youth were criminals. Most are not brought to justice because of statutes and the RCC regularly lobbies to maintain these statutes.

The hierarchy of the RCC has been and is dirty. If that's bashing the church, then get used to it, people are tired of being told what to do, think or feel by inadequate leaders.

Last I heard Holy Orders is a sacrament too and that doesn't appear to be going so well.

[leQ]

83. i wish the word "marriage" was removed when talking about gays

we don't want 'marriage' like straights... for God's sake NOOOOO. but we DO want the LAWS of 'marriage' to be equalized with civil unions.

(i spoze i shuld qualify that 'we' with meaning my circle of friends)

[GinaMaria]

103. I strongly disagree with you

This effects more than GLBT people. I was married in a civil secular humanist ceremony. I am married not civil unionized. The state issues marriage licenses, not civil union licenses. If religious folks want a separate distinction, they can have religious unions, catholic unions, methodist unions, whatever. They need to keep their noses out of my marriage and everyone elses' relationships.

[ret5hd]

96. nobody is or would be forcing the RC church to do or change ANYTHING...

so take that strawman elsewhere. you know this. so why do you make this argument? has one, even a single one, law or amendment been proposed that would force the RC church, the baptist church, the pentecostal churches, or any church, to change their rules and marry gays? No? Then why bring up this red herring?

[GinaMaria]

102. That's nice but no one is looking to take that away from the church

They can define marriage for their members any way they want. They are free to deny anyone a catholic marriage ceremony. They are not free to tell people who are not their members what marriage is, who can marry etc. They are not free to deny non-members any marriage ceremony that is not a catholic ceremony. It's a matter of boundries.

Seems the pope isn't content to be free to have his beliefs. He wishes to stop other people's freedom of belief. That is where he is over the line.

Marriage predates christianity. Marriage is a civil and secular matter. If religious people want a special classification for their unions, they can have religious unions or catholic unions, methodist unions etc.

Keep your noses out of my marriage and relationship.

[ckramer]

34. I feel that democrats or progressives

attacking Pope is unwise and unnecessary. I tend to believe that his call for strenghten marriage is coming from a good will, at least from the prospective of his religion. I'm an atheist.

And I do think that the priority of democrative party should not be placed on the topic of gay-marriage in the next election. There are far more important issues taking precedents.

[SnowBack]

39. Glad there are far more important issues to YOU...

For some of us, it's a matter of equality.

:eyes:

[Cheswick2.0]

49. I feel that the Pope is affraid all the gay Priests and Nuns will cut rope

and leave when they no longer have to use the church as a place to hide.

[goddess40]

41. The Pope only matters when the US Catholics want to control someone

Many of them turned their backs on the Pope when he said no to the war.
Not to mention:
When he says no to pre-marital sex.
When he says no to divorce.
When he says no to birth control.

When it's convenient then the Pope is all knowing and powerful, otherwise what he says is expendable. It's called hypocrisy.

[leesa]

64. Isn't it well past time for him to pass on to his next reward?

That doesn't sound like a statement against gay marriage. Gays have the same family desires and values.

[SoCalDem]

65. The Pope should minister to Catholics, and butt out of everyone else's

business... But first, he needs to clean up the mess of his own priests who seem unable to resist the "charms" of the children of the parishes..

Clean your own stable first, Johnny:(

[Massachusetts]

81. Oh yes..

Hallelujah!O8)

[Massachusetts]

82. Brothers and Sisters let

us not forget how our Shepard has given refuge to the most holy Cardinal Law of Boston, ("what me I didn't know").

Hmmmmmm thats that same mentality that little bush's babe Condi has.O8)

[CatholicEug]

137. And for God's sake

Stop being so charitable to non-Catholics (Catholic relief services, etc. etc. etc.)! Check their parish affiliation before feeding them!

Oh, wait a minute.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Massachusetts]

86. Bottom Line

is, the Catholic church is in as much disarray as the US Gov.IMHO

Now I'm takin my bat and ball and movin on. Go Pats Monday Night.:hi:

[IndianaGreen]

88. Since the Pope has never been married, and has no clue about

changing diapers, raising children, or dealing with a failed marriage, he is the last person on Earth to be lecturing the world about marriage.

[VegasWolf]

109. Exactly, this pope hasn't been married, other popes have though!

[Voltaire99]

112. The Catholic version of Jerry Falwell

Pay neither any heed: they're old dry men seeking to impose their broken fundamentalisms upon an age they neither understand nor love.

Fuck 'em, and learn to be free. :-)

[arwalden]

113. Fuck Him... What Does He Know About Me?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

114. Dear Mr Pope,

Homosexuals have married each other for centuries without damaging society. Rather, their continued devotion to one another in the face of society's bigotry has only served to strengthen the institution.
They have earned the same social benefits as any other married couples.

If, as the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, you choose not to recognize and value the commitment that homosexuals make to one another, that is your choice. However, you have no business inflicting your judgement upon the governments of the world.

[CatholicEug]

118. Am I reading this?

Let's see:
Catholicism is not a bible-based faith ...? All priests are pedophiles...?

Why don't we get the ignoble and ignorant cliches out of the way:
The pope is old and dusty
Catholicism is evil
They worship Mary
They don't follow the bible (never mind that it was Catholic councils that translated the bible and decided what books were canonical)
All priests are pedophiles

Etc. etc. etc.

People here write/react to statements from the pope because they don't understand the nature and call of sacrament ... particularly the sacramental call to marriage.

[VegasWolf]

136. No, some people here understand very well the nature of

the catholic church and simply reject its teachings.

[Rambis]

121. Thanks celibate guy

Go back to the 13th century when priests could marry.

[CatholicEug]

127. You're thinking of

the 7th century.

.

[Rambis]

140. Thank you- n/t

x

[Gregorian]

132. What about global warming. What about Darfur. Poop on you!

I'm sick of this. SICK!

What about real issues??????????????????????????????????????????
Stupid old man.

[Endangered Specie]

141. "Stop fucking kids, and Ill listen to what you have to say"

to quote an rather ex-catholic that I know of.