CBS News Poll: Creationism Trumps Evolution

[ruggerson]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml

<snip>

(CBS) Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools.

Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated among those with more education and among those who attend religious services rarely or not at all.

There are also differences between voters who supported Kerry and those who supported Bush: 47 percent of John Kerry’s voters think God created humans as they are now, compared with 67 percent of Bush voters.

<snip>

I don't see how this country can be turned around when there is such widespread ignorance. The fact that 55% of Americans believe "God created humans in their present form" is mind boggling. We are living in an ignorant, fundamentalist nightmare, where people willfully believe black is white and white is black. I don't hold much hope out for us a nation, if organized religious brainwashing ends up trumping reality and science.

[Politicub]

1. Someone wake me up when it's over

Can't be too much longer

[AndyTiedye]

23. Last Time It Took Almost 1000 Years For It to be Over

“Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are
conservative.”. — John Stuart Mill

[saigon68]

179. AAH THE DARK AGES 450-1450 when the Human race stopped dreaming inventing

We are going back to this religious wasteland as I sit here and type. Medieval Feudalism.

[muriel_volestrangler]

182. To be fair, humans still invented and discovered lots in that period

but not in Europe. The Chinese, Indians and Arabs were doing fine.

[saigon68]

185. Absolutely right Muriel I should have said Europe

The Chinese as I recall were particularly active in their science and technology during this time period

I stand corrected :-)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

200. And don't forget the AY-RABS!

The Arabic world was a beacon of RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE back then. They preserved much of the Library of Alexandria and expanded upon it, especially in Math. What language do the words "algebra" and "algorithm" sound like, mmm?

[DivinBreuvage]

192. In Europe too, unless you discount literature, philosophy, architecture,

and the development of sophisticated political, financial, and social systems that rivaled anything in China, India, or the Islamic world. The "Dark Ages" is a short-sighted and erroneous label for a very vibrant period of human achievement.

On edit, Europeans of the so-called "Dark Ages" were actually superior intellectually to modern Americans. They had their failings, but then they didn't know any better; we do know better yet deliberately choose to pursue the course that must fail. They were groping toward enlightenment; we are the ones who are working to bring back the darkness (at least a majority of us are).

[saigon68]

210. Their Downfall-- Burning Heretics at the stake

Like guys who suggested the earth was round and that the sun did not revolve around the earth.

[UKCynic]

244. Yes, in Europe

Try Roger Bacon and gunpowder for a start. The dark ages weren't that long anyway and the darkness was a 19th century invention. There was a splendid renaissance in the 12th Century and the merchants and crusaders kept the ideas moving round the world. Chartres cathedral is good place to start if you want to see what was happening in Europe before 1450.

[muriel_volestrangler]

251. Most people say the Chinese invented gunpowder first

and that Bacon probably knew of it via the Arabs.

I will agree that European medieval architecture is excellent, and I suppose that's a form of invention.

[chaumont58]

248. More like when Western Europe stopped progressing

China wasn't going throught any dark ages.

[JMac]

209. Evolution vs. Creationism

Here is a good debate transcript for anyone interested. IMO, the Evolution debater wiped the floor with the creation debater. I might be prejudiced though.



http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_saladin/saladin-gish2/index.shtml

[hcashew]

245. I think

that America is de-volving

[Blue_Tires]

2. no regrets about leaving the church now

[still_one]

3. It can't

Eventually, we will become a third rate theocracy

[usregimechange]

173. If I click my heals together three times, will it be over? nt

[still_one]

4. Please remember that only 50% of the total people that could vote did

[keopeli]

37. What is that saying about the OTHER 50%?

[American Tragedy]

265. The other 50% were too busy watching The Bachelor I suppose

Dammit, I have neither sympathy nor patience for the apathetic. They undermine our entire society, particularly the politically conscientious among us who invest our time and emotions into the elections.

Without participation, democracy is tyranny.

[NYC Liberal]

5. HEY MORANS! CREATIONISM IS JUST A THEORY TOO!

And it isn't a scientific one at that!

[tk2kewl]

13. Its much easier to prove your theory

by saying "because I said so" than it is to apply the scientific method:

1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed.
3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation

[stopbush]

30. Oh, they don't even get the dictionary definition right!

Main Entry: the·o·ry
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
synonym see HYPOTHESIS

The fundies only seem to know definition #6. For them, theory=conjecture.

[VegasWolf]

108. They are missing the distinction between theory and scientific theory.

Science imposes rigorous conditions of testability and
repeatability that conjecture does not.

[doreme]

39. Creationism isn't a theory.

It barely meets the criteria of a theory even in the popular usage of the word, let alone the scientific usage. It is a myth with zero, repeat, zero corroborating evidence.

[Goldmund]

40. It isn't even a theory.

It's a story.

[starroute]

68. Creationism isn't a theory because it isn't falsifiable

The creationist argument basically boils down to, "Some things are too complex to have arisen naturally." But when scientists come up with a series of simple steps by which, say, feathered dinosaurs turned into birds, the creationists just grab onto something else as their new standard of impossible complexity. So there's never a pass/fail experiment that would serve as a test of creationism.

To a degree, I'm with the creationists, in that I don't find the Darwinian scenario of random mutation followed by natural selection to be sufficient to explain the complexity of life either. But rather than throwing up my hands and saying, "God must have done it," I've gotten very interested in emergent systems and suggestions that organisms have certain built-in evolutionary mechanisms that are activated under conditions of stress.

I'm sure that among the 84% who say they believe in a creator are a fair number of people who simply want to see evolution as a meaningful and even spiritual process and who find classic Darwinism excessively mechanical and accidental. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more of those than there are people who believe the earth is 6000 years old and Adam and Eve were created out of mud and river-water.

[Salluc]

102. Interesting

And I'm interested in your conjoining of evolution and stress. Why do you consider these evolutionarily unrelated processes?

[starroute]

254. Here are a couple of links

http://www.fromthelab.net/vol02/is7/03july_n1.htm

Starve quiescent or resting bacteria called Escherichia coli or E. coli and they begin to mutate or change at an increased rate. For the most part, the mutated bacteria probably die because the changes they make are incompatible with their existence.

Every once in a while, however, a mutation is helpful. The E. coli survive because of that mutation and begin to reproduce with that helpful change intact. The process is called stationary-phase or adaptive mutation. The existence of stationary-phase mutation, however, challenges some dearly held notions of how organisms change and evolve, said Susan M. Rosenberg, PhD, and Philip Hastings, PhD, both professors of molecular and human genetics at Baylor College of Medicine, who have produced important work in this area.


http://www.dhushara.com/book/evol/evev.htm

Evolution Evolving Scientific American Sept 97

Does mutability carry a selective advantage under stress?

Nine years ago John Cairns and his colleagues at the Harvard School of Public Health reported in the influential journal Nature sensational experiments "suggesting that cells may have mechanisms for choosing which mutations will occur"--specifically, in ways that give those cells an advantage in stressful conditions. This radical proposal collided head-on with the sacrosanct principle of genetics that mutations occur at a rate that is completely unrelated to whatever consequences they might have. Cairns's suggestion thus conjured the ghost of Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, who argued in tile 19th century that species evolve through the inheritance of "acquired" characteristics--ones that individuals develop in response to environmental challenges. Cairns postulated that bacterial cells, in effect, mysteriously know in advance which mutations are likely to benefit them. Then, when investigators stress the cells by starving them, the bacteria tip fate's scales so that rare beneficial mutations happen more often than chance would allow. This incendiary idea, known as directed mutation, ignited a firestorm of debate. Almost a decade later the dust has still not settled.

[VegasWolf]

111. The Darwinian theory is not per se evolution but rather a proposed

mechanism for evolution, namely, the Theory of Natural Selection.
Evolution theory proposes that over a period of time changes
occur to an animal to adapt itself to different niches. Natural
Selection is just one such mechanism and probably a minor one at that. Several scientists of Darwin's time were postulating and
attempting to come up with scientific explanations for fossils that
changed over time but bore remarkable similarities.

Darwin took the heat by fighting the religious
fundies and so he is eternally tar brushed by them.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

129. My theory.... Aliens

They have been observing and "tweaking" our genes. really. :tinfoilhat:

[chenGOD]

207. If aliens were tweaking our genes...

wouldn't they try and make us humans a little less frail? I mean it doesn't take much to kill a human physically, and we are so very susceptible to diseases: cancer/aids/leukemia/diabetes etc etc.

[Bridget Burke]

233. They're making us dumber & fatter.

Soon they'll arrive with their book: How To Serve Man.

[BREMPRO]

243. the aliens are super-sizing our bodies, and shrinking our brains!

EAT ME CREATIONIST MORONS!

[Art_from_Ark]

264. Love that Twilight Zone reference

Better be careful-- it's actually a cookbook!

[UKCynic]

246. There is a theory

a theory that humans are unpleasant bacteria in a cell of an enormous body and that diseases are efforts to exterminate us before we spread to other healthy cells. Another unprovable idea, but fits some of the facts. I quite like it. Some sf story did it, but I can't remember the author.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

250. We are some 6th grade alien's science project....

"Harold - Don't you dare let those humans loose in your room, they'll infest everything!"

[selmo7]

93. Electromagnetism is a theory. Creation stories are myths! n/t

[Zhade]

151. Nah, it's a feel-good fairy tale story.

Kinda boring, though - where are the dragons and knights in shining armor?

:evilgrin:

[Hippo_Tron]

257. If the bible say it be true, it be true!

God don't like all that scientific nonsense.

[acmavm]

6. And I bet they don't think that there were ever any gol darn dinosaurs

either.

[blueblitzkrieg]

31. Dinosaurs = Jesus Horses

tm Tina Fey of SNL :D

[mulethree]

79. pre-flood angel-human-hybrid giants :)

[xpunkisneatx]

34. They don't...

I had a mennonite woman tell me that God put dinosaur bones on earth to "test our faith"...and they think WE are crazy?

[starroute]

72. The test-your-faith theory goes back to the Plymouth Brethren

They were a well-known nutcult of the late 19th century, and their leader was the first to suggest that dinosaur bones were put in the rocks by God as a deliberate test of faith. (Or maybe it was by Satan to shake your faith. I forget just which.)

Aleister Crowley's parents were Plymouth Brethren, which explains a lot about where he was coming from.

[Zhade]

154. "Nutcult" - I picture Puritans praising a filbert.

Sorry, it's late and I'm weird.

[muriel_volestrangler]

174. One of my grandparents was brought up in the Plymouth Brethren

though she managed to get out of it. They were also largely responsible for spreading the idea of the Rapture.

I also had a great-great-grandfather (not directly related to my grandmother) who truly thought the earth was flat, and wrote a book that 'proved' it.

The sad thing to see is the USA sinking back into this kind of thinking that we thought was dying out 100 years ago.

[Bridget Burke]

234. Famous Plymouth Brethren....

Aleister Crowley & Garrison Keillor.

Odd combo...

[booksenkatz]

75. So I suppose that fossil fuel is also a mere test & shouldn't be used? nt

[bloom]

44. Some think that dinosaurs lived within the 6000 years

that they think the earth has existed.

I don't know how they get it all in. One website, at least, has dinosaurs on the ark and the whole thing. I'm not sure why they didn't just have the dinosaurs die off in the flood. That would seem like a theory.

(I've heard the test your faith theory, also).


For all of your Creation Questions and Answers see:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

[bloom]

55. How did those huge dinosaurs fit on the Ark? (I knew you wanted to know)

"Although there are about 668 names of dinosaurs, there are perhaps only 55 different 'kinds' of dinosaurs. Furthermore, not all dinosaurs were huge like the Brachiosaurus, and even those dinosaurs on the Ark were probably 'teenagers' or young adults.

Creationist researcher John Woodmorappe has calculated that Noah had on board with him representatives from about 8,000 animal genera (including some now-extinct animals), or around 16,000 individual animals. When you realize that horses, zebras, and donkeys are probably descended from the horse-like ‘kind’, Noah did not have to carry two sets of each such animal. Also, dogs, wolves, and coyotes are probably from a single canine ‘kind’, so hundreds of different dogs were not needed.

According to Genesis 6:15, the Ark measured 300 x 50 x 30 cubits, which is about 460 x 75 x 44 feet, with a volume of 1.54 million cubic feet. Researchers have shown that this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard railroad stock cars (US), each of which can hold 240 sheep. By the way, only 11% of all land animals are larger than a sheep.

Without getting into all the math, the 16,000-plus animals would have occupied much less than half the space in the Ark (even allowing them some moving-around space)."

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2001/dinos_on_ark.asp


-----


(They are more deluded than you knew). :crazy:

[jhain]

73. flip flop

I swear, it is like whisper down the lane...remember that game?


so there is NO evolution but:

"When you realize that horses, zebras, and donkeys are probably descended from the horse-like ‘kind’, Noah did not have to carry two sets of each such animal. Also, dogs, wolves, and coyotes are probably from a single canine ‘kind’, so hundreds of different dogs were not needed."

So, a zebra can "descend" from a horse- like 'kind'.

I deal with this shit constantly among the rightwingnut homeschool community. You ought to hear the stories from the educators at the local science center, Nature Conservancy, etc.
Never mind. You don't need to hear it.

[bloom]

77. I thought that was funny, also

using "evolution" of a sort to help the Ark theory work.

[bvar22]

76. Silly man!

Everyone knows that the dinosaurs couldn't fit in the Ark, so they drowned in the Flood! sheesh! dumbass!

[ilovenicepeople]

164. I wonder if Noah had Whales and Seals and all differant types of fish

on the ark,or were they left to fend for themselves in the flood?Can GOD cure stupidity?

[KansDem]

203. And what about ticks, fleas, and mosquitoes ...?

Did Noah have a special place for them? Or did they simply ride on the backs of other animals?

As far as I'm concerned, these parasites and pests prove evolution theory for I have no doubt that ticks, fleas, and mosquitoes evolved into Republicans...

[booksenkatz]

81. Gee, I wonder, then how much ark space the food would require?

The food to feed that many animals for 40 days and 40 nights must take up a great deal of space. Or perhaps they just lived on manna from heaven. Or something. There is ALWAYS an excuse with these people, you cannot argue with them.
:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:

[LiberalFighter]

98. Duhhhhh... of course the food came out of thin air...

just like the animal waste went into thin air so it wouldn't pollute the water.

[hyphenate]

184. Oh no--

Since the "Ark" was really an alien starship, they had plenty of room to accommodate all the animal species and save humanity from that wicked flood.


Actually, the theory of aliens populating the earth with humans sounds almost more convincing than listening to any of the creationist's shit.

[R Hickey]

My next door neighbor believes aliens populated the earth

They used spaceships and clones. He had a book that explained it all.

[stevedeshazer]

84. What a scary place!

After just a few minutes of looking around there, I need a shower.

Such tortured logic...

quote: "The Bible makes it clear that only the descendants of Adam can be saved. Romans 5 teaches that we sin because Adam sinned. The death penalty, which Adam received as judgment for his sin of rebellion, also passed on to all his descendants.

Since Adam was the head of the human race when he ‘fell,’ we who were in the loins of Adam ‘fell’ also. Thus, we are all separated from God. The final consequence of sin would be separation from God in our sinful state forever. However, the good news is that there is a way for us to return to God!

Because a man brought sin and death into the world, all the descendants of Adam need a sinless Man to pay the penalty for sin and the resulting judgment of death. However, the Bible teaches that ‘all have sinned’ (Romans 3:23). What is the solution? "

[Maven]

89. I love how they intersperse "scientific" language and "calculations"

...to give their fantasies some sort of empirical legitimacy. This is a big problem too, folks--don't let them co-opt this language. They've already succeeded in getting terms like "intelligent design" and "creation science" (!) into the mainstream. Progressives need to keep refering not just to "Creationism but to the Creation Myth.

[VegasWolf]

112. Like interspersing "compassionate" and "conservative"? n/t

[LiberalFighter]

96. So in less than 6000 years the dogs, horses and others evoluted into

other variations.

[berni_mccoy]

143. Two Words Fundies:

Carbon Dating....

oh, wait, God made Carbon Dating a conundrum as a test of faith? OK, now I'm a believer! CAN I GET A HALLELUJAH?!?!

[bloom]

216. There are answers for that...

"In short, the dates are wrong because they are based on wrong assumptions. For example, the carbon-14 method does not account for the disruption of the carbon balance during the Flood some 4,500 years ago.11 The uranium methods do not make the correct assumptions about the initial conditions of the samples or about the effects of changing environmental conditions through time. The luminescence dates have the same problem. <much more>

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v26/i1/game.asp
&
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dating.asp

----

It takes some creativity to make all of science revolve around Genesis (esp. to keep the 6000 year old Earth/Universe version) - and many people have worked hard to do that very thing...

:silly:

[LiberalFighter]

267. If God is God... what can't God do?

[drdtroit]

119. WOW !?#%@$&?!

Can these people operate a motor vehicle?

[daleo]

161. Did they have to eat? Drink?

Each animal would probably eat its own weight in food over the year or so that the ark would float around, and its own weight in water (sea water would be too salty). So plenty of space would be taken up by these items (not to mention that the ark could only float so much mass). Plus, someone would have to go around feeding and watering 16000 animals every day.

Who got rid of their waste? I would guess that 16000 animals would produce about a fair bit of waste (at least 15 to 20 tons per day, liquid and solid), that would have to be removed from the hold, unless they just stored it there as ballast. Imagine the smell. Imagine the smell of 16000 animals, even without the waste.

How did Noah and his boys see, when they were down there in the hold. Natural sunlight wouldn't work, unless they had transparent wood back then. The animals would go crazy, if left in the dark for hundreds of days. If they used firelight, they needed fuel, tons of it. Not to mention the risk of fire.

Imagine the din set up by 16000 animals in a confined space for several hundred days. It would drive everybody mad, including the animals.

Over the length of time being considered, many animals might have several generations of offspring. Think of rabbits, mice and rats. Did Noah have to go around killing them all? That would be a pretty big job too.

And lots of other quibbles like that. By the way, I know you are not proposing this ridiculous idea. This kind of willful ignorance insults true religion as well as atheism, in my opinion.

It is hard to believe that over 50% of the American population really believes these childish stories. Although I have met a few in my day. I try to be polite and avoid these subjects. But you would be surprised how many subjects become off limits when you go down this road.

I don't think God meant people to ignore the evidence of their own eyes and brains.

Personally, though, I think that the idea that the evolution that we see is the expression of a creative being's existence isn't unreasonable.

[varun]

231. What about trees and plants?

Did they all die in the flood? Or did they just appear out of nowhere after the flood?

[daleo]

236. An excellent point

Also, the waters were supposed to have covered the earth to the tops of the mountains, about 7 to 8 miles. The ocean floor is about the same amount deep, 7 or 8 miles, so the salinity of the seas would have been cut in half, roughly. How could the sealife of the ocean stand a sudden change like that?

Not to mention - where did all that water go? And where is the layer of sediment with the tremendous number of fossils, bones, whatever that all drowned simultaneously?

Also, DNA analysis of human populations should show us all descending from a common gene pool of about 10 people some 100 generations back. The same should be true of all animals - even worse for animals, since there were only two of each. And, as you say, there is no indication at all of what happened to land based plant life.

[bloom]

238. "Obviously some plants were buried in Flood sediments and were fossilized.

"Obviously some plants were buried in Flood sediments and were fossilized. Petrified trees are found in certain layers of Flood-deposited sedimentary rocks worldwide. Often one finds fossilized twigs or leaves or fern impressions, but these are fairly rare. Evidently the majority of plants didn't get fossilized. Where are the rest?

Coal deposits have long been identified as the altered remains of vegetation. The volume of coal and its discovery even in polar regions give us a picture of lush vegetation in a pre-Flood world quite different from our own. There is evidence that the trees typically fossilized in Carboniferous coal seams may have even grown as near-shore floating "islands" with extensive shallow root systems, which became floating mats of vegetation during the Flood. Once buried, they would metamorphose into coal.

Some mats must have been unthinkably large, far larger than any modern peat swamp, for the coals they left behind in some cases cover entire states...
Floating vegetation would also have been the place insects could have survived, particularly in their egg and larva stages, ensuring that they would be distributed worldwide to facilitate regrowth and pollination of plants from seeds, springs, and spores once the Flood was over..


http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-130b.htm

----

They must believe in relativity - as in time is relative - it takes as much time to make coal/fossils/etc. as they want it to take.


They have considered all of the angles.


You might notice "The Insitute for (Creative) Creation Research" has a graduate school:



"DESCRIPTION OF THE GRADUATE SCHOOL - Purpose and Goals

The purpose of the ICR Graduate School is to discover and transmit the truth about the universe by scientific research and study, to correlate and apply such scientific data within the supplemental integrating framework of Biblical creationism, and to implement them effectively in traditional graduate degree programs with standard core curricula in science and education.

The immediate goal of the ICR Graduate School is to foster research and provide graduate-level training in those fields of natural science that are particularly relevant to the study of origins. The long-range goal is to prepare talented graduates in science and education for future Christian leadership.

In 1981, ICR founded its Graduate School, offering M.S. degree programs in the fields of Astro/Geophysics, Biology, Geology, and Science Education. It is intended that, as resources and demand warrant, other programs will be developed for inclusion in the offerings of the ICR Graduate School."

[daleo]

253. Of course - near shore floating islands the size of entire states

(Hits forehead with palm of hand). Why didn't I think of that! And the immense pressure of the water would have liquefied the other plant matter, and injected the resulting remains into deep caverns in the earth's crust - petroleum!

Of course, with a world wide flood, the phrase "near-shore" is meaningless. Also, with a 40 day deluge and no land masses to break up the Coriolis forces, the winds and water currents would be wicked (the roaring 40's of the southern hemisphere). I doubt that floating islands the size of states would have much hope. Oh well, I am sure that they have come up with some hare-brained explanation for that too.

It is almost fun, in a crackpot sort of a way.

[NickB79]

275. Try maintaining most plant seeds in that condition

And see how many you see germinate. Soaking them in soggy, semi-brackish water for a year does not improve germination rates for most plants that I know of. If this were the case, how do we still have succulent plants like cacti? Their seeds deteriorate rapidly in those kind of conditions? How do we still have mayflies? How could they continue their lifecycle without shallow bodies of fresh water to breed in? How do we still have any fish left, when the changing salinity levels would have killed most of them?

[NickB79]

274. So, evolution doesn't exist, yet animal "kinds" evolved after the Flood?

Try cross-breeding horses and donkeys. What do you get? A sterile mule. This proves that horses and donkeys are seperate species. How did speciation occur if not for evolution? Aren't they disproving their entire argument by injected the "kinds" notion into it?

[DemoTex]

7. How long before the Salem Witch Trials of 1692 are repeated?

We are in a bizarre time machine, hell-bent for the dark ages.

[NYC Liberal]

11. I was talking to someone online.

They said "Gay people are possesed by demons!"
I said, "Yeah that's what they said about WITCHES in Salem in the 1600s!"
He said "What are you talking about? LINK PLEASE?" (No seriously.)

These people are truely ignorant.

[DemoTex]

25. Here is their link:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/SALEM.HTM


Innocent women being judged by pious men. I just have to wonder how many of the "witches" were really prostitutes that had serviced their judges. Hey! Doesn't the guy to the right of the dock look a lot like Ken Starr?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

45. Men were killed as well as women in the Salem "trials."

Pls don't ask me for a link, but I was surprised to learn it several years ago and only remember that he was "pressed" by stacking rocks on a board on top of him.

"Christians" can be cruel as hell when they are trying to assure that they are "godly."

[htuttle]

51. Giles Corey

Never forget.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

56. I just KNEW someone here would know the specifics...

DU is such a wonderful bastion of the well read and succinct thinkers.

[muriel_volestrangler]

175. See also The Crucible by Arthur Miller

A great play, and more relevant now than it has been since when it was written in the McCarthy era.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

57. And there was a scholar recently trying to prove her theory that

the areas and times where the most witches were "found" were in areas where the wheat contained a certain fungus that created witchlike symptoms.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

66. Yes, the fungus was very similar to Lysurgic Acid Diamethylide (sp?)

or LSD as most folks would call it.

[VegasWolf]

114. That's pretty much what I called it back in the 60's, or orange sunshine.

[hayduke1]

169. The fungus is called ergot ..

It was discovered from old rye bread or rye seeds that had molded. It produced a neurotoxin, ergotamine, very similar to LSD.

[DemoTex]

71. Same wheat fungus that inspired Hieronymous Bosch and other artists?

Ship of Fools, Bosch

Painted 500 years before the Bu$h Regime, about the Bu$h Regime (and family).

On edit: See the skull in the "bush"? See the buffoon "W" in the tree slurping from the wine glass? See the sychophants in the boat? See the religiously pious (nun and monk) cavorting? See the peons in the water, catching the scraps? This painting is a cruel metaphor for our times. Oh, Bosch had something for everyone. His paintings of Hell are even more bizarre.

[VegasWolf]

115. Well, Bosch was a Grand Master wasn't he! n/t

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

262. I love Bosch!

Thanks for posting this one. How apropos to our time.

[DemoTex]

63. Nothing worse than mean, pious, sanctimonious "Christians."

Just like our fearless leader, AWOL Bu$h, they quote Christ and then kick sand in his face by their works. Shakespeare said it best in The Merchant of Venice: "The devil can quote scripture for his own purposes." The Gospel Luke said something to the same effect. To those pious Bob Jones types I love to quote Jesus from Acts 9:5 (KJV): "It is hard to kick against the pricks."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

202. Oh vey. A fundie columnist here in Brazil says pointing out the evil of...

...the witch trials (Inquisition, Salem, or whatever) is leftie propaganda because (brace for this) Communism killed more people. I kid you not.

The same columnist dedicated an entire column to arguing that Stalin was worse than Hitler, and SAYING IT WAS THE OTHER WAY AROUND IS COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA.

As you see, Americans don't have a monopoly on lunacy. Market dominance, perhaps.

[funnymanpants]

269. Part of this is true

Stalin was probably worse than Hitler--thought comparing the two monsters seems an act of depravity in itself. Stalin killed around 20 million. I've read all three volumes of Solzenstin's *Gulag.*

[prodigal_green]

242. Actually, I believe they were property owners

widows mostly. Interestingly, their accusers usually held adjacent land. I'll try to find a link. Read this in a book several years ago.

[VegasWolf]

113. As soon as I see "link please" I know I am talking to a freeper? Pure

intellectual laziness!!

[NYC Liberal]

121. I just tell them "Do your OWN research!"

It's funny. One time I posted as my source for something a page on the DNC. So this Freeper goes "WTF? The DNC isn't a credible source!" So I said "Oh really? Disprove just ONE thing on that page."

Of course, the response was "Well how about YOU disprove something on the RNC page first!" So I said sure. Went to the RNC site found the page claiming Kerry had voted to kill every defense system since the '80s, linked to Snopes...done. :D

Freepers are such idiots!

[berni_mccoy]

137. When an idiot like that asks for a link...

Give them the ISBN of a book on the subject and point them to Amazon.com. They'll never question you again (and they won't bother looking up the book either).

[PassingFair]

18. Don't forget that over 60%

literally believe in ANGELS.
And now AMERICANS are looking toward other countries for religious freedom. Sheesh. They've reversed history!

[reprobate]

134. More to the point....How long before the 'honor killings' start.

[AndyTiedye]

221. The Only Reason the Salem Witch Trials Were Ended...

...was that they tried to prosecute the royal governor's wife.
Not too surprisingly, the governor invoked the authority of the
English crown to put a stop to that.

AFAIK, no theocracy has EVER been removed, anywhere in the world,
anytime in history, except by an external force.

[Lorien]

8. A lot of children raised by fundies become Atheists

all we can hope for is that the following generations can develop critical thinking skills.

[barb162]

33. but that happened because most of society was /is still secular; as

our society becomes more fundie, there will be less and less liberal, scientific "outlets," fewer schools teaching facts, the scientific method and thus there will be fewer children even realizing there are other kinds of thinking.

[No_Mor_Dumya]

211. Why do you think the fundies are now homeschooling

their kids....duh, so they can teach them their all important religious truths.

[No_Mor_Dumya]

212. By the by, this is my second now third post

I know you will wake me up fast if I fall short.

[0rganism]

125. And a lot of recovering drug addicts become fundamentalists

I'm not holding out any great hopes for the generations to come.

[tavalon]

186. Some become Wiccan

Actually, though, to be fair, I wasn't brought into the Southern Baptist fold until I was thirteen and I guess some of my critical thinking skills were already developed because it just didn't gel for me.

[Sandpiper]

9. Grow up America

Ignoring the fossil record doesn't make it go away.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

199. No, but nuking it does.

:scared:

[Pepperbelly]

what I find most interesting about this is ...

that even though a majority believe what they believe, they still do not want creationism substituted for evolution in the schools. A silver lining, perhaps.

[keopeli]

48. The explanation for this is simple.

Most Murikans believe in separation of church and state.
Being strongly Christian, all of their answers reflect devout Christianity EXCEPT for what to teach in PUBLIC schools.

That is the silver lining.

The problem is that we have NO politicians who are willing to address the issue of separation of Church and State. They all want to appear as Super Christian.

To me, this means that our culture will eventually recover from this trauma we are experiencing. However, it will not happen for 20 years AFTER we get the government to acknowledge the separation.

How long it will take to find a politician who will do that, God only knows.

I'm hoping to see that moment before I die.

[PassingFair]

54. "I'm tired of fundamentalist preachers telling us what to do!"

--Howard Dean. Check it out.

[Danmel]

10. I don't know what to say

I'm dumbfounded, I really am. It astonishes me that so many people can be so ignorant. What century is this again?????

[Kool Kitty]

163. That's a good question.

Today's GOP-building that bridge back to the sixteenth century.

[Tace]

12. I Don't See A Conflict Between Evolution And Creationism

We evolved. Questions of God all involve problems with semantics -- the meaning of the words we use. It was the Roman Catholic Church some 1700 years ago that called scientists "satanists," in an effort to keep control of people's thinking.

To me "God" is "The All," (A concept of Hermetic philosophy, which pre-dates and underlies all of the world religions).

On Edit: any conflict is semantic in nature.

[enki23]

213. then you aren't looking

Creationism was developed *specifically* as a religious, yet pseudo-scientific opposition theory to evolution.

and btw. everyone and their dog says "god" is "the all." it's no more profound now than it was long before there was a hermetic philosophy. "i am" has been around a long time, so the christians have an even earlier claim to it than you have in that respect. of course, all of you actually got it from older ideas.

anyway, renaming "the universe" to "god" really don't accomplish anything more or less than, well, renaming the universe. personally, i call it "bob."

("bob" is "the all." "the all" is "god" "god" is "the universe." "the universe" is "bob." "bob" is "the all." "the all" is "god" "god" is "the universe." "the universe" is "bob." "bob" is "the all." "the all" is "god" "god" is "the universe." "the universe" is "bob." "bob" is "the all." "the all" is "god" "god" is "the universe." "the universe" is "bob." "bob" is "the all." "the all" is "god" "god" is "the universe." "the universe" is "bob." "bob" is "the all." "the all" is "god" "god" is "the universe." "the universe" is "bob." "bob" is "the all." "the all" is "god" "god" is "the universe." "the universe" is "bob.")

[The White Tree]

219. The Catholic Church is not in conflict with Evolution

From Catholic.net
<http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Issues/Darwin.html>

The Catholic Church has never had a problem with "evolution" (as opposed to philosophical Darwinism, which sees man solely as the product of materialist forces). Unlike Luther and Calvin and modem fundamentalists, the Church has never taught that the first chapter of Genesis is meant to teach science......

.....In his catechesis on creation given during a series of general audiences in 1986, John Paul 11 provided the following discussion on the first chapter of Genesis:

This text has above all a religious and theological importance. There are not to be sought in it significant elements from the point of view of the natural sciences. Research on the origin and development of individual species in nature does not find in this description any definitive norm.... Indeed, the theory of natural evolution, understood in a sense that does not exclude divine causality, is not in principle opposed to the truth about the creation of the visible world as presented in the Book of Genesis.... It must, however, be added that this hypothesis proposes only a probability, not a scientific certainty. The doctrine of faith, however, invariably affirms that man's spiritual soul is created directly by God. According to the hypothesis mentioned, it is possible that the human body, following the order impressed by the Creator on the energies of life, could have been gradually prepared in the forms of antecedent living beings (General Audiences, January 24 and April 16, 1986).

Translation - The overwhelming amount of evidence suggests that Evolution is very likely the mechanism for the origin of species and life. Regardless, Catholic faith and belief in God cannot co-exist with this theory by succumbing to it to the point that God is removed from nature and has no hand in the universe. This is our belief. It is why I prayed constantly for intervention when my mother was dying of cancer even though I did not really believe that God would do anything to save her. God does not guarantee happiness in this life but regardless of how we live our lives, they do have meaning.

I have always felt that evolution was God's mechanism. That God set it all up when the universe was created because the plan was to create the universe. I can't invision a God that must control all aspects of the universe. Indeed that would seem to be against my faith because it teaches that we are to be judged by God when we die. That implies that we have free will and our universe exists through free will so why wouldn't that free will exist down to the level of our biology. However, God is always there watching, inspiring and loving all.

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

14. I believe that God used evolution as the method of creating life

including humans. I understand that school should teach about the evolution part (HOW) , and churchs should teach about WHY God created life.

I don't know why this distinction is so hard for fundies to get.

[NYC Liberal]

16. Fundies don't get that there was actually evolution in Genesis.

Hence the reason why it took SEVEN DAYS (which is not the same as our "days" today, BTW). It didn't happen instantly.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

50. (Per Mark Twain) Why did it take seven days to create the world and

only ONE day to do the rest of the universe?

With x number of stars and planets?

[Ravenseye]

69. Day = Period of Time

I read somewhere that the original language of the bible didn't read seven days, but seven 'periods of time' which was translated into I think Latin or Greek as 'day' and later made the jump into English. The original word wasn't the word for day, and had more of a loosey goosey meaning.

God created the world in 7 undefined periods of time (or stages).

So they, the fundamentalists, don't even get that right.

[hyphenate]

188. I would say that if you want to apply

the seven "days" as part of evolution teaching (which, BTW, isn't in my book, because I look at the Bible as just another "book"), a good (though not perfect) word to use would be "epoch." It's a better word to substitute for "day" as is currently used.

Main Entry: ep·och
Pronunciation: 'e-p&k, 'e-"päk, US also and British usually 'E-"päk
Function: noun

Etymology: Medieval Latin epocha, from Greek epochE cessation, fixed point, from epechein to pause, hold back, from epi- + echein to hold -- more at SCHEME

1 a : an event or a time marked by an event that begins a new period or development b : a memorable event or date

2 a : an extended period of time usually characterized by a distinctive development or by a memorable series of events b : a division of geologic time less than a period and greater than an age

3 : an instant of time or a date selected as a point of reference (as in astronomy)

[Ravenseye]

201. Yeah Epoch

That'd be a good word to use. Though I'm thinking stages instead of days would fit the original meaning better. A stage would reflect the essence that it would take some time, but not necessarily an equal ammount of time.

And yet it's all BS anyway.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=GEN+1&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=on&showxref=on

It reads like crazy talk.

Genesis 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

ok so first day...light, darkness, day, night. All good. Skip to day 4...

Genesis 1:14 through 1:19
Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

So he created light from darkness, day from night, but didn't great the actual objects that gave light till day four. How does that work?

[LiberalFighter]

120. Let's see now... God took 7 days when he could do it in 1 day or even 1sec

God made man then decided to make woman

God made all these other galaxies that are far far far away... why was it necessary?

[clydefrand]

28. So tell me, please, why did God create humans?

What's the point of creating beings that kill one another or do other horrible things to one another?

And why only on earth would God create intelligent life when the universe is so vast and so filled with other solar systems with planets? Makes no sense to me.

What is your take on this?

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

42. well, I don't knwo, but I can tell you what I think

I don't know the answer to every question, and don't think I ever will.

I don't know that God hasn't created life elsewhere in the universe. That is a possibility, but I don't know, and we'll probably never be able to know in our lifetimes. I'll leave that question to future generations.

In regards to why God created beings that could be evil and kill, God created beings that can kill, but he didn't create us with the purpose to kill each other. I think God's purposes are to learn to love one another and learn to give and sacrifice in a way that helps the development and growth of all those around us. I believe the point of this life is learning how to become unselfish, and to consider the needs of others above our own. However, our human nature is such that we are generally pretty greedy and selfish, so it is a struggle. But I think our purpose is to struggle, and develop and mature into peaceful generous people. Much in the way that exercise makes you physically stronger, I think doing what is right in difficult circumstances makes our spirit and character stronger. I believe we are developing ourselves for an eternal existence, and what we do here gets us closer or farther from maturity and wholeness.

Why does God allow evil to happen to innocent people? I don't know. I can only hope that is for some greater purpose that we don't understand.

That's what I think. But I can't prove it to you.

[dddem]

122. I think in very simple terms,

but let me see if I can contribute to this thread.

I don't believe you can have good without evil. How can you know how good it feels to be healthy if you've never been sick? Unfortunately, you can't appreciate kindness unless you understand cruelty.

I believe in God. The older I get, the less I believe in religion. An atheist once asked me how God could let all the bad things happen. My response was that He doesn't "let" them happen, as if God is puppet master. We all have free will. People choose their actions, and their re-actions to circumstances. God merely observes, and experiences this life through those he creates (this does not in any way mean that I believe creationism over evolution. I believe we were created by God THROUGH evolution).

To me, faith is a very comforting part of my life. It has helped me many times to feel as though I'm not in this all alone. If that's all it ends up being, then that's actually enough, when you think about it. If it turns out to be true, all the better. Jesus, if nothing else, taught very valuable lessons about kindness, and humanity, and forgiveness and acceptance. If that's all He is, that's still pretty impressive. And if He truly is the Son of God, well - good for us!

There. Have I enlightened anyone? If so, good. If not, that's good too, but let's be nice to each other anyway.

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

123. I agree with you

it reminds me of something. Whenever people ask how God can exist with all the evil that happens, I tend to think how can God not exist with all the good I see?

[dddem]

126. How refreshing!

As a married person, AND the mother of a teenager, I don't hear those words very often!;)

[reprobate]

142. Are we being prepared for the next stage of evolution?

Where we go from the individual mind to the Human Mind?

And the inhabitants of other solar systems for their own hives.

And we all meet to form the supermind.

THEN there will be a God.

[Zhade]

162. This is exactly what I think about the purpose of life, minus any god.

NT!

[keopeli]

145. If you'll allow me, that's not the question.

I'll answer it if you like, but it's just my opinion, as the concept of god is by nature ambivalent to such answers and instead revels in the question itself, celebrating what is NOT understood.

The miracle of our existence is not that we are without flaws. The miracle of our existence is that we ARE! It's up to us to sustain ourselves. This is true in both science and religion.

Your question about intelligent life being only us misses the point as well, I'm afraid. We know what we know. We believe whatever makes us comfortable. As we learn, we grow to accept the truth. We don't know if there is intelligent life elsewhere, so your "sense" is unproven and lies on par with the notion that no other life exists...as a considered possibility. I happen to agree with you, but so what?

My take on this? We need good teachers like never before! And we need a new media. But that's a long story.

The question, "why did god create humans," is a good one. Why did god create trees? The easy answer is to glorify god. That's actually a beautiful picture if you can imagine it. Everything was made to glorify its own greater meaning in life. That way, everything acts in harmony. My imagination thinks that, when everything really works together, we get humans!

The hard answer is the scientific one, since technically nothing was simply 'created' but had an origin that is definable. This disallows the previous answer because it demonstrates no proof. However, it must be considered a legitimate position in that the overall notion of everything working in harmony and evolving in such a way is consistent with known scientific evidence, until such a time as further evidence reveals itself. (I'm not endorsing ignorance, by the way, I'm condemning it by removing it's power.)

The larger issue is that we need sound education and social tolerance. Everyone should be working in that direction, in my opinion.


Keo

[Charles19]

194. To worship Him and praise Him

not because His ego needs it but because we are the defining reflection of His image in this beutiful creation of His we call the universe.

My opinion on the creation of the vastness of the universe and all of the galaxies is a continual reminder for us as to His greatness and how we should be humble.

I think a lot of people can get their heads around the why better if you look at the universe as God's system. A system like a MMORPG, (massively multiplier online roleplaying game). So it is not like God sits there and says, hmmmm tiger A is really strong and well tiger B is just too emotional, I will help tiger A beat tiger B. The system takes care of itself because the designer is so good.

[phlesh]

223. God created humans because...

he was lonely... simple as that

[VegasWolf]

249. Simple, because god didn't create humans, humans created god. n/t

[DrWeird]

Awfully funny way of doing it.

If one particular lizard had sex with one lizard, but not a different lizard five hundred million years ago, none of us would be here. So that's an awfully goofy way for God to make us.

But that's for theology class.

[Geek_Girl]

80. Fundies are literalist

They take every word the bible says literally. Also you have to look at what the Republicans have been doing for the past 30 + years. They pretty much gave fuel to the fundamentalist movement. Just look at Pat Robertson and Falwell they're politicians who have used religion to sway Christians to their political ideology and they have done so very effectively.

I think if liberals/progressives want to counter this we will have to do so in an effective and organized manner. We need to start a movement of our own.

[MeinaShaw]

131. I'm sick of the preaching from both sides

It presupposes that evolution is how it happened. Frankly, I don't see why the schools should take a position either way. At the grade school level, students should be taught that there are competing theories on how the world started and leave it at that. I'm sick of the preaching from both sides on this one. Everyone has their theory and no one can prove it. But oh what faith they have.

One side calls the other religious fanatics and the other calls the other side heathens. I call both sides assholes that want to push their beliefs off on my kids. I say, go preach your evolution and creation to your own kids and leave everyone else's kids out of it.

[Crunchy Frog]

152. There aren't two sides to this issue

scientifically speaking. Creationism is myth and has absolutely no scientific basis whatsoever.

Do you think science classes should teach every single culture's creation myth? Maybe they should teach astrology as well as astronomy. Maybe they should acknowledge the theory that the Earth is flat, and that the sun revolves around it. Maybe they should give equal time to people who believe that 2+2=5.

Sorry, evolution is the only scientifically valid explanation out there. The rest is just fairy tales and have no place in science education, unless you're prepared to throw all that other stuff in as well. If you don't want your kids learning science, homeschool. Don't try to destroy my kids education.

They can teach creation myths in comparative religion classes.

If I sound intolerant on this subject, it's because I am.

[Donkeyboy75]

220. That's fine if there are religion classes in the school.

But they don't teach science (evolution) in religion classes - at least not rigorously - but they want to teach religion in science class? Fuck that.

[ruggerson]

15. I'd like to see the Blue State/Red State breakdown on this sucker

any guesses?

[Amaya]

17. America= cesspool of ignorance

nt

[NYC Liberal]

19. And Republicans are the turds.

[Amaya]

22. Indeed

[Endangered Specie]

20. "Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated

among those with more education" -- I couldn't have said it better myself.

[toymachines]

21. there is no reason for this ignoranc e to be passed on

the poor children of today and tomorrow are totally screwed when it comes to getting an education of value from the schools. i do hold out hope because such a high number of children are computer and web literate (at least i think so). hopefully they can learn things for themselves, reach outside the schools, maybe even read some respected news sources, at least while we still have some respected news sources. we do right?

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. So what the majority believes is more important

than the actual facts?

I can't stand what religious fundamentalism is doing to this country.

[Tace]

32. And Why The Hell Are We Teaching About "God" In Public Schools?

[barb162]

36. yes they are destroying this country plain and simple

[blueblitzkrieg]

26. America is fucked

how did a country with such an ignorant population become so powerful? sheesh

[David Zephyr]

27. 1/2 of All Bush Voters: Teach "Creationism" INSTEAD of Evolution!

Scary.

Teach Creationism instead of evolution?
All Americans
37%
Kerry voters
24%
Bush voters
45%

[NMDemDist2]

29. man I was in a good mood tonight til I saw that (and the other) poll

:P

[The Zanti Regent]

35. I WANT OUT OF JESUSLAND!

It's time for California to say FUCK YOU to Jesusland and secede!

http://moveoncalifornia.org/index.html

[mrdmk]

139. With "Arnold", as our president?

Lets get rid of the vapor votes and elect another governor and then leave!

[Imperialism Inc.]

38. Holy shit.

You're right. How can one overcome such willful ignorance. Even 1 in 4 Kerry voters would like to see creationism replace evolution in schools! 37% overall and nearly 1/2 of Bush voters.
Wow. It is officially hopeless.

[corporatemedia]

41. the pilgrims did not come here to practice religious freedom...

they came here to practice their own brand of religious intolerance. and their efforts are bearing fruit.

[cubsfan forever]

61. The heart of the matter eloquently stated!

That's why Roger Williams fled MA to help establish Rhode Island.

Professor 2

[corporatemedia]

78. thanks. i've often use that line.

[GiovanniC]

279. Useless Fact

I am a direct descendent of Roger Williams.

[starroute]

86. But even the Puritans believed in science

They didn't see science as being any threat to their religion -- which is one big difference between them and the fundies today, even though there are certain similarities in the matter of intolerance.

The Puritans had barely gotten off the boat in Boston before they set up a printing press and founded Harvard University, which taught science as well as theology. (It also taught alchemy in the early days, but that's another matter.)

Even the Salem witch trials took place in part because the Harvard-educated preachers had decided that older methods for determining guilt, like trial by water, were rank superstition and that they would use only the most up-to-date scientific procedures based on eyewitness testimony.

It just took them a while to realize that eyewitness testimony from a bunch of hysterical teenage girls is not the most reliable grounds on which to go around executing people.

[corporatemedia]

103. the "science" of that time had nothing that could challenge their ....

beliefs. the christianists* of today have to deal with the age of the universe and the earth, evolution, archaeological evidence and so on.

i do agree that the puritans, while intolerant, were better than these christianists* we have now. at least they were intelligent and intellectually curious.


*christianist=a person who says that they believe in christ, but doesn't believe in the things that christ believed in.

[bloom]

104. The Puritans were also hanging Quakers for their beliefs...

you wrote: "i do agree that the puritans, while intolerant, were better than these christianists* we have now. at least they were intelligent and intellectually curious."


---

In Boston, the two underwent a severe ordeal. They were examined by the magistrates and "found not only to be transgressors of the former laws, but to hold very dangerous, heretical, and blasphemous opinions; and they do also acknowledge that they came here purposely to propagate their said errors and heresies, bringing with them and spreading here sundry books, wherein are contained most corrupt, heretical, and blasphemous doctrines contrary to the truth of the gospel here professed amongst us."
<snip>

Eventually, sterner measures were used against Quakers. Some were whipped; some were abandoned in forests; some had their ears cut off and some were hung. But Quakers kept coming; their persistence helped win America's civil rights.

http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2003/07/daily-07-11-2003.shtml

---

While it could get that bad again - it hasn't yet.

[corporatemedia]

133. be thankful some quakers survived to make those great cereals.........

i know, cruel joke (sure hope you aren't a quaker)

but nothing compared to the cruelty of the those times. i never said the puritans were nice people, just more "intelligent and intellectually curious" but their cruelty was not out of the norm for the times - torture, slavery, serfdom, no internets......

my initial point was that they were intolerant. intolerance often leads to cruelty. i just heard a report about hate killings in the usa. those weren't done by tolerant people.

actually i've never known many Friends, but i do have a very fond recollection of a few Friends i met one day back in washington dc in '70. the Friends were feeding granola to the demonstrators at their house. best granola i ever ate and the nicest people you ever want to meet. i'll always remember that meal.

[Mandate My Ass]

43. CBS: Enforce tyranny of the majority

Argumentum ad Populum (popular appeal or appeal to the majority): The fallacy of attempting to win popular assent to a conclusion by arousing the feeling and enthusiasms of the multitude.

"Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society thinks or believes.

de Tocqueville:

Crushing Independence of Thought
A danger of democracy(sic) is that it can crush independence of thought:

"I know of no country in which, speaking generally, there is less independence of mind and true freedom of discussion than in America <...> As long as the majority is still undecided, discussion is carried on; but as soon as its decision is irrevocably pronounced, everyone is silent, and the friends as well as the opponents of the measure unite in assenting to its propriety. "

[Technowitch]

46. And a once-great contry takes one more giant step BACKWARD

Let's face it: All future scientific breakthroughs will most likely be made in countries that rely on science and not on superstition.

Oy...

[mmonk]

47. Quite backward leaning for an industrialized nation

especially given the fact many of the founding fathers were interested in science, were men of the enlightenment, and none were "fundamentalists" which I don't believe became a religious group until the 19th century.

[Skidmore]

49. Where the heck are they taking these polls? Who exactly

are they asking?

[maddezmom]

53. they aren't calling me..I've been called once in my life

and it was a affiliate of either NBC or ABC in FL during the recount.

[barb162]

52. we will turn into a non-scientific society, a backwater country

where all of these fundies will be just fine as cashiers. They/we,will go to school to the fifth grade as that is all you will need. Just go to work, go back to your shack, then go to more bible classes in the evening, watch fundie stuff on TV and talk about how wonderful everything is as jesus is in our lives. If something bad happens, pray.

The country will be unable to turn around.

" I don't hold much hope out for us a nation" I hold out NONE; I think we have passed the point of no return. That 55% figure is important. It explains why Bush won and if he didn't win (stolen election), it expalins why a lot more people aren't asking for recounts. The majority have their Man and they are happy with him.


THE USA will go down. We are already headed there. You can't recover from this many people not capable of or not wanting rational thought. No matter what Bush does they know he is for Jesus so they keep backing him. Itexplains why all the Bush screwups and all the things Kerry was promoting like health care, Iraq, jobs, etc., made no diff.

Say goodbye to what you thought was your country.

[Bigmack]

109. Gee.. I wish I'd said that...

instead of screaming like a madman at the TV! I was incoherent, and my wife (she refuses to watch the news) came in to find out what was wrong. By that time the "news" had moved on to the nifty fight scene at the Bball game.

I called up the link to the CBS story and SHE started screaming incoherently.

I've never posted a "me too" before, but you said it all!

[barb162]

124. oh my, thanks! I wish I had brighter, optimistic things to write

but I am so totally down on what I see happening. I can't rationalize my way out of it.

[Ilsa]

58. Well, I'm pretty much convinced that it's time to split.

And if liberals can't split up the US, maybe it's time for me to split. There is simply no way we're going to get an educated population with an Administration as backwards as this one.

[phlesh]

59. so what?

The idea of creationism is fine with me... I mean, even if the whole universe came from a large mass of primitive gases exploding into an orderly universe, it all still had to come from something. We as human beings can not perceive time with no beginning, so that tells me that there must be something bigger that guided it all.

I don't see what the problem is as far as believing in God goes...

However, a problem I do see, is the denial of evolution... I don't necessarily believe we evolved from amoebas... its all theory and there is no actual evidence that proves that we evolved the way that they say we did... however, there is evidence that proves that we evolve...

This is a non-issue as far as I am concerned...

[Swamp Rat]

157. Right... go back to SLEEEEEP!

[Crunchy Frog]

160. Why don't you find out

what the word "theory" means in the scientific context. Why don't you also try looking at what some of the evidence actually is.

This is a good place to start educating yourself.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

[hatrack]

218. Go suck down a little more Prozac N' Jeezus

And take your messy stupid pointless posts with you.

[phlesh]

225. REAL MATURE GUYS

seriously... I said nothing offensive yet you make asses of yourselves... (now you have a reason to flame me... )

There is no proof that we evolved from primates... I am quite educated on the matter and when I have time to make a longer post on it I will back up some of my points...

But lets say its all true... still where did it all come from? Answer me that question? Where did the universe begin? and what happened before that? and before that? and before that? and before that?

You can't explain it... its beyond our feeble human understanding...

[hatrack]

228. "There is no proof we evolved from primates"

Yeah, eagerly awaiting your informative and well-supported posts. :eyes:

[muriel_volestrangler]

232. We ARE primates

you don't even have to look at fossils to see that (Darwin wasn't working from any ancestor primate fossils). Just comparing our anatomy and that of other primates shows how similar we are, clearly placing us in that category.

The origin of the universe is a completely different matter. The currently most popular hypothesis is that it began from a point of no size, so asking where it began is not really a valid question (unless you say it began everywhere, since the current universe expanded from that point). Whether there was a 'before that' is a good question, and possibly unanswerable with anything more than a supposition.

[LynnTheDem]

60. America the Great Theocracy

Filled with a bunch of total backwards idiots.

[WindRavenX]

62. EVOLUTION IS NOT A THEORY OF ORIGIN

GODDAMMIT!!
::::::head explodes:::
Evolution is JUST THE MECHANISM OF WHICH THINGS CHANGE!! :argh:

[DrWeird]

65. It's the origin of the human race.

That whole ape-human thing is what so many people have problems with.

[WindRavenX]

70. And see that's ANOTHER problem

We did not "evolve" from monkeys; we just share a most common ancestor with chimps and the like.
The public is wholly ignorant of such common misconceptions, AND IT'S KILLING ME!!

[douglasjkruse]

64. This basically tells us everything we need to know...

[Pepperbelly]

67. Hey guys! These people aren't monsters or anything ...

and I do not believe that they deserve the scorn heaped upon them here. Sorry, but I believe it to be counter-productive. Of course, people are entitled to say what they want but in the final analysis, holding up the population to derision and contempt is a loser proposition in politics.

I reccomend that everyone check out Bob Somerby for the last three or four days. It has been enlightening.

[DemoTex]

83. On your recommendation I will ...

I assume you mean The Daily Howler ...

http://www.dailyhowler.com/

On edit: Correct me if Somerby has another site.

[bloom]

87. no - but it is a problem when you have a high school biology teacher

in a public school saying about evolution - " Of course this is nonsense, but I am required to teach it, anyway..."

Pisses me off. If people want to teach this in Sunday School or their church schools - that is their business. Infecting the public school system is NOT helpful.

[The Backlash Cometh]

74. Sheesh! And they blame the lack of technolgically oriented

American students on blacks and hispanics, when the truth is that the half of the population that voted for Bush isn't mathematically or scientifically inclined.

[corporatemedia]

85. yeah, and they say that they want more teaching in science and math....

but constantly teach/preach a distrust, fear, even hatred of science.

[The Backlash Cometh]

105. Creationism is emblematic of why Johnny can't count.

It really makes no sense at all. I think I know why it's called Creationism. Because this government is creating its own problems.

[KingChicken]

82. America is idiot country, I’ll stick with what I know is true, science

I see so many of them using science to prove themselves right, but they are quick to push aside hard facts and scientific evidence.

Hey idiots, don't believe in evolution, well watch this country de-evolve back into some kind of empire-state, feudal clan linked, ethnocentric, archaic, magical, mystical, mythological, faith based society.

Why don't just give up science altogether, I’m sure this society would be a lot better if we just gave up everything we've worked for over the past 250,000 years.

America is full of sheep, mindless sheep.

[bvar22]

88. Oh goody. Lets jump in the "WayBack Machine"!

way back

way back

Way back

Way Back to a time when:


Church elders and the majority of citizens agree that the telescope devised by Galileo is an instrument of Satan, and the scriptures CLEARLY teach that the Earth is the Center of the Universe!


WOW! We are now a scientific democracy. We get to vote on TRUTH! Who needs repeatable, verifiable experimentation when you have the ancient mythology!
Church Elders and the verifiably ignorant American Citizenry are NOT valid sources for TRUTH. Not NOW; not in Galileo's time!

[selmo7]

90. I love how Brian Swimme, the cosmologist

reminds us that

"The cosmological discovery that shatters nearly everything upon which the modern age was built is the discovery that the Universe came into existence 13.7 billion years ago and is so biased toward complexification that life and intelligence are now seen to be a nearly inevitable construction of evolutionary dynamics. Our new challenge is to reinvent our civilization."

http://www.brianswimme.org/

I don't disagree that the Judeo-Christian Creationism should be taught, but must be taught in ENGLISH class as (and understood as) a myth, and taught alongside and equal to the thousands of other creation myths our diverse civilization has to offer. It should NOT be taught as science. The "Bible" is a work of literature -history, poems, stories, myths, letters. It is NOT nor ever has been a scientific tome.

And didn't these people ever see INHERIT THE WIND, for creepsin' out loud???

I'll add that I had a very heated argument with a man at work the other day. He got frantically and rudely upset with me when I pointedly stated that the creation story was a MYTH. Our education is sorely lacking in teaching what myth is about and how we might learn from the nature of myth.

[Marthe48]

91. Things change

we change as we grow, the earth changes, even if you don't want to believe the geologic record, check out the earthquakes, floods and volcanos, not to mention hurricanes and natural wave action. Its hard to believe that God would put a rigid creature unable to adapt to this changing world. Oh wait --I forgot about the fundies!

[tmooses]

92. What really is criminal is that this "anti-science" attitude...

is affecting research into curing diseases.

[bloom]

95. Other countries are having to take up the slack

with stem-cell and all....


It IS bad for our country and it's pretty annoying seeing people excuse it as if it doesn't matter.

[American Tragedy]

266. Actually, I would attribute that to the medical-industrial complex

I know for a fact that the FDA has withheld or banned drugs, some for treating terminal patients. Drugs that were successfully used in other countries but the FDA either refuses to approve them or only approves them years later, under public and political duress. Meanwhile, hundreds, even thousands of people die who could have at least had a chance if they had been permitted access.

Why produce or approve a cure, which permanently eradicates a condition, when long term treatments are so lucrative? Just the polio vaccine obliterated entire industries. Better not do that again.

The government could diminish this conflict of interest by appealing to the competitive and venal nature of the private sector. They could place a bounty of several billions of dollars, a fraction of what the administration spends on abortive military projects, to be paid to the first companies or researchers to produce long-term cures to cancer, HIV, whatever.

[Gregorian]

94. They both exist. They are not mutually exclusive.

This is the trouble with the argument.
We are still living in the dark ages. Black or white. Right or wrong. The truth, I believe, is that they are both part of the world we live in.
I've never joined in this argument before. And I may not again. But now you know what I think.
Furthermore, it isn't important. What is really important is that- WE ARE.

[Kimber Scott]

99. I agree with you. The catalyst that sparked evolution could very well

have been a "higher power." Nobody knows for sure, but everyone wants to deal in absolutes.

[EndElectoral]

97. William Jennings Bryan lives! Roll over Clarence Darrow!

[bloom]

100. It looks like it hasn't changed much in 10 years

guessing from this:

Table 8. Ranking of 21 Nations on Knowledge Question about Human Evolution, 1993 International Social Survey



Nation
Rank
Mean *
% Correct *

East Germany
1
1.86
81.6

Japan
2
1.89
81.0

Czech Republic
3
2.04
77.6

West Germany
4
2.08
72.7

Great Britain
5
2.18
76.7

Bulgaria
6
2.28
60.9

Norway
7
2.43
65.0

Canada
8.5
2.45
67.5

Spain
8.5
2.45
64.2

Hungary
10
2.50
62.8

Italy
11.5
2.51
65.2

Slovenia
11.5
2.51
60.7

New Zealand
13
2.54
66.3

Israel
14
2.66
56.9

Netherlands
15
2.67
58.6

Ireland
16
2.70
60.1

Philippines
17
2.75
60.9

Russia
18
2.80
41.4

Northern Ireland
19
2.99
51.5

Poland
20
3.06
35.4

United States
21
3.23
44.2


http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/bishop_19_3.html

[keopeli]

101. People here at DU are having a biased reaction to this news.

This is a CBS poll. Most people, including myself, believe in Creation as a possibility. In fact, we enjoy believing this.

I know the reality of the science. I know the evidence in support of the Big Bang Theory, and I enjoy that as well. I also know the Pope has even acknowledge the undeniable truth of evolution.

But, this is the great "what if" mentality that spirituality, in most of its forms, endorses. Speaking very generally, belief in a deity allows you to be free to accept contradictions that can be, and often are, overwhelming. Question like "where will I go when I die?" begs for an answer. Even playing the Devil's Advocate, given the enormity of the concepts involved in the study of Origins, can be productive. And yet, it is a realm generally avoided by science, which desires to learn, acknowledge, and move forward. That's why our science is so good, is it not?

The empirical evidence that we just expire and decay is overwhelming, yet, for most of us, our conscience and emotions yearn to know more and believe more.

Americans are great at the "What if..." question.

What if we learn to fight disease?
What if we decide to abolish slavery?
What if we allow the people to vote?
What if we want to go to the moon?
What if we help Europe defeat fascism?

I'm not suggesting we'll always be great "What if" people, but I think this pole is a sign that we still ponder with great fervor this enormous question.

And, I think it would be best if we embraced it in an open way like this. Lay the burden of proof on the footstep of the believer. If their response is that their proof is in their heart or their bible or whatever, be interested for them. Tell them you disagree, but don't write them off as nuts. Allow our self-conscience to expand.

Keo

[barb162]

106. '...their proof is in their heart or their bible " Are you drunk?

"don't write them off as nuts" No I will write them off as ignorant fundies.

[keopeli]

135. Why does your concept of tolerance only go so far?

I'm not drunk, I'm an American. I believe in inclusion. I believe in tempered government control and freedom. Kneejerk reactions to everything that has to do with fundamentalism is short-sighted.

I'm saying that, if people want to believe this, I have no problem with that.

I'm more interested in why CBS would publish such a poll.

I want a tempered, inclusive and representative government.

The current administration has none of these qualities.

I also believe that we can not continue to live in a divided society. Both sides must acquiesce to the notion of happy co-existence. That means inclusion.

So, I won't write them off as nuts. You may write them off as ignorant fundies if you wish, which happens to include my entire family and the bulk of the friends I have had in my life, but they have every right to be ignorant fundies if they choose to be.

If you want to be productive on this issue, you must educate people. Teachers are your friends. Teachers are inclusive. Teachers know when to speak and when to listen.

And, I might point out, teachers are still mostly female in our society, both in education and in bible classes.

My suggestion is media reform as a political agenda. Get corporate hands out of the newsrooms. Allot certain zones as safe for children, give conservative parameters, and legislate it. Get antiquated government restrictions on language and other objectionable material out of the code and replace it with conservative lines on public airwaves and various lines (able to be controlled with ID verification) on controlled mediums such as cable and the internet.

Thanks for listening.

Keo

[barb162]

144. if people could have rational discourse with fundies, that

would be one thing, but it just doesn't happen.

Example: If a fundie were to ask who I voted for I would tell them and if they asked why, I would gladly tell them.

Reverse the situation: I ask a fundie who they vote for and why, I am likely to get a strange smile with no answer or some "jabbering" about the bible, how liberals are evil,pagan, etc. Everything would be in religious terms.

Too many other people all have the same response. A person I know who grew up in Utah started voting Democrat for the first time four yrs. ago. Her fundie parents won't talk to her. Whe she tries telling them why she voted for Kerry and having a conversation, they give her that weird smirk/smile. They wont answer her questions about why they vote Bush.

As to "media reform as a political agenda... Get corporate hands out of the newsrooms" since the pugs own almost all media, there's NO chance of reform. Zero. News has shifted from being information to being propaganda. There's very little if any investigative journalism any more.

"I want a tempered, inclusive and representative government."
Me too. But it won't happen anymore.

Democracy only works with secularism. Theocracy works with religion. We are moving toward theocracy. Check Scalia's coments today.

[keopeli]

147. I know, but I'm not moving yet. I will promote tolerance to improve

my own way of life. My family is EXACTLY the same as your friend's family in Utah, except mine is in Texas. We haven't spoken since the election! If the things you say are true, and I believe they are, then I only get to choose how I will interact locally and spread the truth as best as I can. When things fall apart, that is all that I will have left are the things that are around me. We must work to protect those things now, and that means teaching tolerance.

And media reform CAN happen. You know why? Because the fundies hate the media as much as we do, only they have a channel that they don't mind watching now (fox). Liberals need their own channel, as do moderates. If the Dems are smart they'll start BOTH of those networks and get the majority back. Then, media reform will be happening in a different way. It's a brave new world.

edit: typo

[barb162]

155. I hope your optimism works. good luck

[readmoreoften]

150. Let kids go beyond the empirical after high school!

I mean, please!!!!

Is science perfect? No. Sure, science only evidences what we can actually know within our technological framework, and yes, it's couched in a narrative framework.

BUT LET KIDS CHEW ON THAT IN COLLEGE!

Why don't we let kids 'transcend science' after they learn it and digest it!!! And don't teach it next to a 'pseudoscience' like creationism. How are they supposed to know what good science is if they learn about it as if it were on equal footing with illogical nonsense.

Children do not need to learn that the earth is 4000 or 6000 years old! Period!

I dealt with this while teaching at a college in Texas. College students bring in notes to class to excuse them from the portions of the lecture that deals with evolution. College students telling me that they were forced to study the creation myth in their public high school classes. Doctors complaining that they have medical students who do not believe in evolution and hence can't grasp the basics of medicine and then cry discrimination when they fail.

Someday these creationist kids might end up being your surgeon. Scary damn thought as far as I'm concerned.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

107. professional wrestling is real & pop-rocks will kill in combo with soda

55% of Americans are apparently DUMBASSES, who care not about science or FACTS.

Hey, Xtians! Where are dinosaurs or Neandertals noted in the Bible? Where are the likely Mars fossil microbes noted in the Bible? Why did all the fantastic miracles conveniently STOP since Biblical times? Get a fucking life...

JB

[Bullshot]

110. A CBS poll also showed that most people believe

the Earth is flat; the sun revolves around the Earth; and earthquakes are caused by angry gods.

[ticapnews]

116. Did they do a followup question...

Did they do a followup question to see what % think the sun revolves around the earth?

My aunt and uncle are as Fundy as they come and drive me up the wall. They have several books outlining the proof of such things as Creationism, the Flood etc. She was so proud that I was attending private school because we studied the book of Genesis in Biology (I never told her it was because the teacher wanted us to see for ourselves what a load of BS it was) One time I made the mistake of saying something to the effect of "the lizards ruled the world before us and the bugs will rule the world after us." This got a nasty look from my aunt and I responded that this was a "scientific theory" that I had "heard" (I, of course, being the saintly nephew who would never believe such rubbish) Her response was "Science! What a load of bunk!"

I so wanted to remind her that it was "science" that kept her husband alive after a stroke, and it was "science" that kept him walking around. But I held my tongue.

I find it interesting that the more intelligent and well-educated you are, you are more likely to believe in evolution, whereas ignorant people lacking education don't believe.

Shouldn't that tell us all we really need to know about the situation? Education is the silver bullet.

[muriel_volestrangler]

178. I think you should have said that science kept your uncle alive

there has to be some place we can start educating the ignornat, and personal experience is a good way to start. If she trusts a doctor, then maybe she'll realise (or can be persuaded) that his knowledge comes from scientifically examining biological evidence - just as genetics has, and paleontology from examining real rocks and fossils, and so on. Is it worth telling her that Gregor Mendel, the originator of genetics, was a monk?

[VegasWolf]

117. Really, why is this surprising, most amerikans believe in

an invisible man in the sky and give him money every
week. damn, wish i had invented religion.

[Porcupine]

118. I can't wait for the Baptist-Mormon wars...

or all the other nasty little things that the various people who are "saved" will do to each other. There is a reason that there are a gazillion different denominations in America. We get to choose our church and we choose to do it different than those slackers over at the catholic, baptist, methodist, lutheran, morman, jehovah's brethren day adventists.

These people HATE EACH OTHER more than they hate us. Otherwise they would go to the same churches on Sunday's. Since the earliest days of Christianity they have been killing each other and haven't stopped for almost 2000 years.

Stupid, flat earthers.

[RevolutionaryActs]

127. "Baptist-Mormon wars" That should interesting to watch eom

[renaissanceguy]

141. Good point.

Religious RW-ers absolutely REFUSE to go to a church other than theirs. They somehow believe that other Christians believe in a false god because they don't go to a certain church.

Sick motherf*****

They'll be disappointed when they die and they discover that they caused all this havoc for NOTHING.

[sendero]

128. Yet more evidence...

... that Americans get stupider by the day. It's really quite an interesting phenomena, wherein people who are comfortable lose their ability for critical thought.

But don't worry - that comfort zone is soon to be a thing of the past. The only question is will the hard times to come focus the mind or dull it. It's really hard to say.

[Raiden]

130. Of course we came from monkeys...

...It's the only explanation for fundamentalists. Besides, Dubya is the missing link.

http://teacherbridge.cs.vt.edu/public/projects/Biology+Folder/Evolution.jpg



Freepers never fail to amaze me... How did we get here --- God made us!

But you can't prove that! --- I have faith.

So, that proves nothing. I had faith in Santa, look how that turned out --- God is real

How do you know? --- I know.

How do you explain dinosaurs? --- They never existed.

But there are fossils --- God was only testing our faith

That's crazy! --- No, evolution is crazy. It's just a theory and yet LIBERAL PINKOS act as if is scientific fact!

Gravity is just a theory too --- You GODLESS PINKO, YOU'RE GONNA BURN IN HELL FOR THIS BLASPHEMY!



They live in their own little world...

[berni_mccoy]

153. Actually, Evolution is an Observed Process

What's actually a theory is if Humans evolved from apes.

Evolution is a fact. It has been a part of controlled breeding by livestock for many years. The fact that two animals, through sex, can create a new, better species, is a fact. Even before Darwin, a monk by the name of Gregor Mendel observed the process of 'inheritence' in plants and identified dominant and latent traits.

The reason why Humans have not been deemed as a product of this observable process is we lack a clear connection to the ape family (even though now we know we share over 99.9% of our genes) and so the famous missing link. Evidence of the missing link has been sought since Darwin and we've gotten very close with recent finds in the last 20 years. Also in the last 20 years, it turns out that Apes have a greater intelligence than we thought, as it has been proven that an Ape can master sign language, can communicate effectively and express emotions. We may not find a missing link, because it may not be necessary.

What most people don't realize that most of the "intelligence" that we consider distinguishing from animals is not something that happens without the proper environment. That is, if you raise a child without language or society, that child's mind will not fully develop into what it is capable of (and remain, largely, that of an animal). It is a proven fact that if a child is not exposed to language and society by the age of 6 or 7, they will never fully develop a normal mind. This was discovered through the works of Jean Itard (on the "Wild Boy of Aveyron") and Maria Montessori and has been re-confirmed by recent scientific study into the development of the early childhood mind.

[ibegurpard]

132. This is not bad

"the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools."

This reflects that many, many Americans are religious and they can't see life evolving without a "guiding hand." It does NOT mean that they reject scientific explanations...it just means they think God is behind the science.
My father is a geologist. He's also a devout Mormon. He has no problem reconciling the scientific evidence he encounters with his religious beliefs. He believes that we don't understand God's methods and God's timelines. He believes that a literal "the world was created in 7 days" interpretation is wrong. He laughs at the idiots who want to claim that the Grand Canyon was created by the "great flood."
Not all religious people are anti-science and the results of this poll would seem to bear that out. I'm particularly heartened by the majority that would not substitute teaching creationism in school.

[muriel_volestrangler]

180. Look at the numbers - 55% say humans did not evolve

"God created humans in present form" 55%
"Humans evolved, God guided the process" 27%
"Humans evolved, God did not guide process" 13%

It's very bad. Those 55% are rejecting the sciences of geology, radioactive dating, DNA analysis. I'll also take a bet that they reject human-induced global warming too - which is why this scientific ignorance is so worrying.

Your father is in that 27%. He's in the educated minority.

[MileHiStealth]

136. I believe God created the universe as a joke ...

and mankind as the punchline ...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

138. Spin, spin, spin...

How does creationism trump evolution when "most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools"?

"The vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process."

This says to me that most people DO believe in evolution, and believe it was designed by god.

[ibegurpard]

140. Exactly

That's what I took out of it.

[daleo]

165. If you read the article, it says 55% believe man was created "as is"

I read that to say 55% were fundamentalist young-earth creationists, with 13% being materialist evolutionists and the remaining 32% being theistic evolutionists (God guided the process). But there may be some hybrid position - people who believe the universe and most life forms came into being through evolution, with only mankind being a special creation.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

166. That's how they want you to read it, I'm sure...

but the question is: How do you interpret "man was created as is"?
This was just another poorly-written poll designed to throw the reader off track.

[daleo]

170. I agree the poll is badly written

The question may well have been phrased to extract an extremely high (apparently) pro-creationist response. There is an art to designing poll questions, which can be used for clarity or obfuscation.

[kodi]

146. america to the world: "we're too stupid to wipe our own asses."

the nation that planted its flag on the moon, and it comes to this?

[barb162]

158. sad,sad, sad n/t

[nolabels]

159. We are clever enough to make up a conspiracy theory about moon landings...

Then we should also be more than clever enough to figure out who are real monkeys daddy's and Mommy's were


The Moon or a Studio in the Nevada Desert
http://www.primeline-america.com/moon-ldg/

Btw would this also indicate DNA samples are now in-admissible evidence to submit for study, because it to must be a hoax :shrug:

[Zhade]

148. "...more heavily concentrated among those with more education..."

Gee, I wonder why educated, well-informed people tend to disbelieve Creationism?

[aikanae]

181. but conservatives say colleges have liberal bias

i wish it had been the onion that said that,
but my *red* state paper had an article complaining about the 'liberal bias' in colleges. the reason they know that?
because kids would go off to college and come home with liberal ideas.

(the notion that kids got smarter - never came up).
i laughed so hard reading that, until i realized it was true.
and they are serious.

[NVMojo]

149. We are a nation that believes in myths and legends, look at the Prez..

[Autobot77]

156. Well what do you expect when your education system sucks?

Its all the Repuke master plan.Cut education spending so all that will be left are religious schools that don't teach science...with the exception of the science of weapon making.

[Princess Turandot]

167. I wonder how much the way the questions were posed affected..

the responses. I never came away from Catholic school with the notion that the world was literally created in 7 days. The current Pope has expressed his opinion that evolution as the biological mechanism for the development of life, including man, makes sense. His primary caveat is the belief that at the point when pre-humans became humans, the appearance of the concious mind (or soul) was by the intervention of God.

<sarcasm>I do like the notion of the dinos being on the Noah's Ark. They must have left the T-Rex behind since a pair of those would have made quick work of everyone and everything else! </sarcasm>

[bklyncowgirl]

177. Official Catholic doctrine is actually quite pro science

There's a big difference between Catholics and fundamentalists on this issue. Catholic thinkers wrestled with this one a long time ago and decided they didn't want to be accused of trying to burn another Galileo at the stake.

[flaminbats]

168. nothing has really changed since 1896..

Most voters still believe Jonah was swallowed by the whale. Most of the right-wing fundamentalist voters supported Bryan, now this block supports Bush. Those who live in cities and were better educated voted for McKinley. This same block of voters supported Kerry.

The only real difference between 2004 and 1896 is red states have more leverage in the Electoral College while blue states have less. Despite of the overwhelming support Bryan had among religious fanatics, McKinley was still able to win..and so can we!

http://uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/GENERAL/pe1896ev.html

[Mokito]

171. This article makes me think of Bill Hicks

Americans do not believe that humans evolved

Bill Hicks ON CHRISTIANITY

That's another good thing about Bush being gone, man, cos for the last 12 years with Reagan and Bush, we have had fundamentalist Christians in the White House. Fundamentalist Christians who believe the Bible is the exact word of God, including that wacky fire and brimstone Revelations ending, have had their finger on the fucking button for 12 years. "Tell me when Lord, tell me when. Let me be your servant Lord." Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the bi.., er, the world is 12 thousand years old. Swear to God. What the..? Based on what? I asked them. "Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages - 12 thousand years." Well how fucking scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12 thousand years old? "That's right." Okay I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready? "uh huh." Dinosaurs. You know the world's 12 thousand years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point. "And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big fucking lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills. And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

Get this, I actually asked one of these guys, OK, Dinosaurs fossils - how does that fit into you scheme of life? Let me sit down and strap in. He said, "Dinosaur fossils? God put those there to test our faith." Thank God I'm strapped in right now here man. I think God put you here to test my faith, Dude. You believe that? "uh huh." Does that trouble anyone here? The idea that God.. might be.. fuckin' with our heads? I have trouble sleeping with that knowledge. Some prankster God running around: "Hu hu ho. We will see who believes in me now, ha ha." "I am God, I am a prankster." "I am killing Me." You know, You die and go to St. Peter... "Did you believe in dinosaurs?" "Well, yeah. There was fossils everywhere" Thuh "Aaaaaaarhhh!" "You fuckin idiot." "Flying lizards, you're a moron. God was fuckin' with you!" "It seemed so plausible, ahhhh!" "Enjoy the lake of fire, fucker!"

You ever noticed how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved? Ya ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. "I believe God created me in one day" Yeah, looks liked He rushed it. They believe the bible is the exact word of God - Then they change the bible! Pretty presumptuous, hu huh? "I think what God meant to say..." I have never been that confident. Next we have a bible out called 'The New Living Bible', it's the bible in updated and modern English. I guess to make it more palatable for people to read. But its really weird, when you listen to it. "And Jesus walked on water. And Peter said, 'Awesome!'" Suddenly we got Jesus hanging ten across the Sea of Galilee. Christ's Bogus Adventure, you know. Deuteronomy 90210, you know.

Such a weird belief. Lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he's gonna want to see a fucking cross, man? "Oaww" May be why he hasn't shown up yet. "Man, they're still wearing crosses. Fuck it, I'm not goin, dad. No, they totally missed the point. When they start wearing fishes I might show up again, but... Let me bury fossil heads with you Dad, Fuck em - Let's Fuck with them! They're fuckin with me now, lets get em. Give me that brontosaurus head, Dad."

From Revelations (Full Transcript)


Bill Hicks,:yourock:

God, if there ever was need for a reïncarnation, this would be it!

[thebaghwan]

172. Anybody here ever read Theodore White's Book - The History of Warfare

between Science and Theology in Christendom? It will show you what we are headed back to.

[Cooley Hurd]

176. ...and we didn't land on the moon, either.

Jeebus Cripes!!! WTF is WRONG with this country???

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!!!!

[Strawman]

204. 47% of Bush voters also prefer the "Moon is made of green cheese" theory

And how can a spaceship land on cheese?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

183. I don't trust the results of this poll at all.

Way too freepy looking

[GOPBasher]

187. Fantastic. I'm living in a nation of morons.

[Massachusetts]

189. Whoa......................

I gotta stop smokin' these bananas.:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :silly: :wtf:

[JohnOneillsMemory]

190. A good litmus test for rational thought. And Science is losing in the USA.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that
two plus two equals four.
If this is granted,
all else follows.""

-George Orwell 1984

[BonjourUSA]

191. Hey ! Just a little effort and the USA will be return to the Middle Ages

;-)

And don't forget to reactivate the Inquisition

[KitSileya]

193. Reading this drove me back to Heinlein...

I swear, I try to be the social democratic liberal that I am, believeing that with information, and education, and enlightenment, there is hope for all people, but then people, and the news, and Nov 2! knock me straight onto the path of libertarian curmudgeonism - the human population needs culling, and fast - and stupid people need to be stopped from breeding.

"Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal and execution is carried out automatically and without pity."

America has clearly demonstrated its stupidity.

[Roland99]

195. America - Land of the Blissfully Ignorant!

And this all started in, what, the last 100 years or so?

There wasn't this much vocal effort put forth to push fundamental Christianity until Darwin's work become more widely known.

It's narrow-minded egomaniacs in power in the various fundamental churches that are pushing this in order to keep their flocks' numbers up and keep those tithes rolling in.

[Liberaltarian]

196. this is EXACTLY why i'm OUTTA here...and i won't feel guilty.

Those of us who have chosen to follow the ex-patriate route over the election debacle are sometimes being called "cowards" and "quitters" for being so quick to leave the country of our birth behind.

but this isn't the country i was born and raised in.

the u.s. is regressing, and there's nothing that's going to stop it in the near term.
we only get the one ride on the big blue marble- I'm not gonna let mine be spoiled by a bunch of ignoramus religoids and christers.

[DuaneBidoux]

197. Do we need more proof that the other side is ignorant?

[RedCloud]

198. Age of Ignorance has been in vogue for some time

Let's see, if I scare you with fire if you don't believe me (nice cave man trick)
If I offer you presents during December so you will forget that this is Saturnalia plagiarized
If I give you candy in the Spring
If I say when you die, you get to live
If I steal Hercules's four titles of adoration for my guy
But offer no proof other than a smile
Would you believe me?

If I asked you to study
Physical Anthropology
Primatology
Serology
Genetics
Biology
Paleontology
Zoology
Morphology
Physiology
Comparative Anatomy
Geology
Embryology
Mitochondrial Evolution
Biochemistry
so you could get a fair start at understanding evolution,
but I didn't scare you with fire if you refused,
nor give you chocolate dinosaurs when you were a child to help you along with the program,
would you even bother to have an informed counter opinion?

Would you merely crawl out of your mom's womb and hope to hell that the one religion you are exposed to, happens to be the correct one?

We need to organize and start anthropology circles that meet on Sundays, (Saturdays in areas heavily plagued by equally false religions) and start to educate the masses.

[Toucano]

205. I can't wait for the results of the poll on gravity! n/t

[arwalden]

206. Fundamental Christians Are Idiots.

[JMac]

208. Evolution vs. Creationism

Here is a good debate transcript for anyone interested. IMO, the Evolution debater wiped the floor with the creation debater. I might be prejudiced though.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_saladin/saladin-gish2/index.shtml

[No_Mor_Dumya]

214. Why do you think the fundies are homeschooling

their kids? Could it be to indoctrinate the minds of their children with these very ideas? So no questions are asked and when they come up they feed more bs in.

[Logansquare]

215. Telephone poll, random sample w/o controlling for age

It's unfortunate that they didn't release the exact methodology and sample demographics, because I'd like to have my suspicions confirmed. What percentage of lower income, elderly folks with land lines who don't use Caller ID?

[dkofos]

217. I see DUMB people

[No_Mor_Dumya]

222. For Your Information

I have homeschooled for the last eight years in the bible belt, and I fully understand what I see others doing. If you are a secularist in this part of the country and you don't believe that the Bible is the sole authority on when the world was created you will have a hard time trying to find a group to "socialize" with. There are even homeschool coop groups who require statements of faith before you can come aboard that address this issue. All you have to do is look up homeschooling on the net, places like Christian classical homeschooling, ambleside online and Yahoo groups, you will find a bevy of people who claim the New Earth doctrine to be the way to go for themselves and their children. Also check out the curriculum they use. Also check out the curriculum they use, ABEKA curriculum from Florida, Bob Jones (name sound familiar) University Press. What do you think the slate on these curriculums will teach children? I could write a book for you, but end by saying: Before you imply that someone us dumb, better inform yourself.

[dkofos]

273. Exactly what is it you are trying to tell me??

That you believe that religious spew.

I don't.
I never will.
And what subject should I better inform myself on??
Get over it DUMYA

[berni_mccoy]

224. How many centuries did it take

For the church to realize Galileo was right and that the earth was NOT the center of the Universe? And how many centuries after that did it take for them to apologize?

Eventually, the fundies will realize the facts and apolgoize to the scientists... it will only take time for them to be confronted with cold hard facts

[bullimiami]

226. Im sorry I do not trust this sort of polling.

I have no idea if it could be true or not but this poll, for me, is meaningless, pointless and suspect. To easy to be just a tool for another puff-propaganda piece disguised as news.

[Zero Gravitas]

227. The Dumbassification of America is complete

Its over, the American Experiment has failed. How can you have a democracy in the 21st Century when most of its citizens are so badly informed and have a 16th Century world view?

[FlyByNight]

229. Racing forward to the past

Inquisitions anyone? Flat Earth? Sun revolving around the Earth?

Are people that uncomfortable with science? We're doomed.

[Prisonerohio]

230. No Suprise.

This is nothing new. The majority has always been against evolution. It’s largely due to ignorance and denial of the facts because of a literalist view of the bible. The simple fact is nothing in biological science makes sense without evolution. Today we can examine DNA of organisms to show relationships between organisms. Whether people believe that God guided evolution or not does not bother me, but to deny evolution is to deny all science from Darwin till now.

[callous taoboy]

235. Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle.

[plasticsundance]

255. Creative Evolution

National Geographic recently had an edition devoted to evolution. They also recently had an edition entirely devoted to global warming. The editor of the magazine prefaced the edition on global warming that he knew he'd receive many combative letters from readers disgruntled with not only the idea that he devoted the entire edition to global warming, but he even dealt with as an accepted and well-respected scientific finding.

I applaud him. It's frustrating arguing against an irrational mind, steeped in so much fear that it will only accept things as a matter of faith, but one must carry on and fight the good fight.

We stand on the shoulders of giants, and these giants fought ignorance and persecution as a sacrifice to enlighten us. We have it even better in the days of modern marvels, because if we get to frustrated, we can at least watch cartoons for awhile. ;-)

For anyone interested, I read this web page for an interesting insight on evolution. Dated material, but awfully interesting:

http://spartan.ac.brocku.ca/~lward/Bergson/Bergson_1911a/Bergson_1911_01.html

"Even so with regard to the moments of our life, of which we are the artisans. Each of them is a kind of creation. And just as the talent of the painter is formed or deformed in any case, is modified--under the very influence of the works he produces, so each of our states, at the moment of its issue, modifies our personality, being indeed the new form that we are just assuming. It is then right to say that what we do depends on what we are; but it is necessary to add also that we are, to a certain extent, what we do, and that we are creating ourselves continually. This creation of self by self is the more complete, the more one reasons on what one does. For reason does not proceed in such matters as in geometry, where impersonal premisses are given once for all, and an impersonal conclusion must perforce be drawn. Here, on the contrary, the same reasons may dictate to different persons, or to the same person at different moments, acts profoundly different, although equally reasonable. The truth is that they are not quite the same reasons, since they are not those of the same person, nor of the same moment. That is why we cannot deal with them in the abstract, from outside, as in geometry, nor solve for another the problems by which he is faced in life. Each must solve them from within, on his own account. But we need not go more deeply into this. We are seeking only the precise meaning that our consciousness gives to this word "exist," and we find that, for a conscious being, to exist is to change, to change is to mature, to mature is to go on creating oneself endlessly. Should the same be said of existence in general?"

Here's another from Alexander T. Shulgin. Some of the old time hippies at DU might remember him. Interesting article as it compares the Big Bang Theory with the Creationist Theory:

"How much simpler life would be if we just dropped the concept of the Big Bang, and the insistence upon there being a point of origin. Rather than continue a search for a beginning, simply assume that everything has always been here. And rather than fret over when it all might crunch, simply assume that everything will always remain here. Our space and cosmos has been around forever, and will stay with us forever.

Something in this direction was proposed by the Hoyle group some years ago, invoking the continuing generation of mass to account for the retreating of the outermost limits. But still there is the embodied assumption that there is expansion (the red shift observations) and thus some earlier time there was something smaller, and hence (at some time in the past) maybe there was an origin."

The following is a bio on Shulgin:

http://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/shulgin_alexander/shulgin_alexander.shtml

[gizmo1979]

237. too stupid for a democracy

this just proves my theory that the U.S has become too stupid to support a democracy!When did we get so dumb?

[VegasWolf]

239. The biggest problem I see with Noah's ark is that they let the sheep

on board.

[icymist]

240. Be careful for what you ask for, for you might just get it.....

Is what comes to mind when I read the original message.

[bloom]

241. "The Institute for Creation Research Graduate School is accredited..."

ACCREDITATION

"The Institute for Creation Research Graduate School is accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS), an agency which itself is recognized and approved by the U.S. Department of Education.

They teach their own brand of Biology - Geology - Astro/Geophysics - Science Education

They even have a museum.

Sorry Californians - it's in your state. I'll bet the Fresno Freepers love it.

10946 Woodside Ave. North
Santee, CA 92071

http://www.icr.org/

[Endangered Specie]

258. Dang.

thats the only thing I can say, dang.

[enki23]

259. er.. it's "pretend" accredited.

it's not *actually* accredited.

[bloom]

272. I suppose "accredited" is all in perception

If you believe the world is 6000 years old and you want to know that people are creating "science" that will force evidence into that worldview - their school may be as expert at it as any school could be. (That was clever how they worked the US Dept. of Education - was it? - into it).

:eyes: :silly: :eyes:

[BrightKnight]

260. Why build an ark if your going to kill the animals?

Why would so may "Christian" people support a candidate that will certainly cause the extinction animals. Would Christ really dismantle Social Security and pour billions into weapons manufacturing?

Does Iranian theocracy really serve Islam or the people of Iran?

[VegasWolf]

270. Absurd, what relics could creationists have, a piece of god's magic wand?

[depakid]

247. Oh bullshit

another cheap media poll aimed at shaping public opinion.

[VegasWolf]

252. No wonder people in other countries laugh at us. I can see

Japanese children learning "Poof Therory". you know,
an invisible man in the sky with Harry Potter like powers
makes the entire universe in 7 days because he is
all powerful and all knowing and lonely.

Well, almost all knowing, except for a few mistakes
like making man to worship him and then realizing man was
lonely so he created a woman for him.

It's all so unbelievable in Cherry Hill park!

edit sp

[slackmaster]

256. Perfect example of why rule by majority is not always a good thing

:argh:

[cyberpj]

278. Agreed -

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." — H. L. Mencken

[The Stranger]

261. Suggested reading: The Handmaid's Tale

Margaret Atwood's prophetic tale about religious theocracy.

[IndianaGreen]

263. The more stupid you are, the more likely you'll believe in Creationism

and the more probable that you believe that Bush really won Ohio.

[0007]

268. One cell amoeba vs. Adam & Eve

Some folks see a duck and some see a rabbit



Rabbit or Duck the soul inhabits either or both.

[Chicago Democrat]

271. Be ignorant, believe in lies...

So the insanity of the policies seems unbelievable and the public accepts falsehoods willingly.

[Osamasux]

276. Bumper Sticker

Creationism. The Whoops there it is! theory

[ElsewheresDaughter]

277. he took a hundred lbs of clay and then he said, hey listen.....

i'm gonna make this world today because i know what's missing. and a brand new world began ...

name that tune?

[cyberpj]

280. Noah's Flood and The Grand Canyon -

It's getting really really scary here folks.......

Creationism and Science Clash at Grand Canyon Bookstores

A compilation of photographs, biblical quotations and essays published last year by Master Books, the book says God created the heavens and the earth in six days, 6,000 years ago, and that the canyon formed in a flood God caused in order to wipe out "the wickedness of man."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/26/science/26cany.html?ex=1256529600&en=66af410f8a71ca6f&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

[Osamasux]

282. Yes, I read that one

Book was written by a Canyon tour guide who used to explain reality to his charges, then married a born again moron and gave up the truth for her. A touching story.

[Osamasux]

281. Lemme get this straight....

Problem: Schools are doing a lousy job teaching evolution to the knuckle draggers. This results in more than half of adults not understanding that life evolved on this planet. (From sponges, according to the latest DNA research, btw.)

Solution: Stop teaching evolution altogether and replace it with creationism so the knuckle draggers' kids won't know how ignorant their parents are.

Does that about sum it up? :eyes:

[Fleurs du Mal]

283. My fellow Amurcans...you are teh dumb