Scalia says religion infuses U.S. government and history

[Khephra]

NEW YORK -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said Monday that a religion-neutral government does not fit with an America that reflects belief in God in everything from its money to its military.

"I suggest that our jurisprudence should comport with our actions," Scalia told an audience attending an interfaith conference on religious freedom at Manhattan's Shearith Israel synagogue.

snip........

In the synagogue that is home to America's oldest Jewish congregation, he noted that in Europe, religion-neutral leaders almost never publicly use the word "God."

But, the justice asked, "Did it turn out that, by reason of the separation of church and state, the Jews were safer in Europe than they were in the United States of America? I don't think so."

snip.........

Scalia told them that while the church-and-state battle rages, the official examples of the presence of faith go back to America's Founding Fathers: the word "God" on U.S. currency; chaplains of various faiths in the military and the legislature; real estate tax-exemption for houses of worship _ and the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

snip.........

"None of this is compatible with what we say when we express the so-called principle of neutrality," Scalia said.

snip........

"Our Constitution does not morph," he said Monday, deadpanning, "As I've often said, I am an originalist, I am a textualist, but I am not a nut."

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--scalia-religion1122nov22,0,1455814.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire

[aquart]

1. I really dislike that guy.

But not as much as the bastard who appointed him.

[PeteGammons]

6. How about our new minority "leader"...

...who loves him as well?

[CO Liberal]

2. CO Liberal says ignorance and stupidity infuses Scalia

[Just Me]

58. "Just Me" says Scalia woulda' embraced Hitler's rhetoric,...

,...only difference is whom he targets.

What a lard of religiosity. He has no place in this democracy!!!

[SaintAnne]

3. mr thomas jefferson

"Christianity neither is, not ever was part of the Common Law" also I think the constitution would argue with this nut

[zmdem]

28. mr george washington

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to
political prosperity, Religion and morality are
indispensable supports. In vain would that man
claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should
labour to subvert these great Pillars of human
happiness, these firmest props of the duties of
Men and citizens.

Farewell Address to the Nation, 1796

***
The views of the founders vis a vis religion are interesting, and cut both ways.

[atreides1]

37. More From Mr. Washington

"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear
to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy,
which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled
Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again
see the religious disputes carried to such pitch as to endanger the
peace of society." George Washington, Letter to Edward Newenham, October 20 1792

"...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction." George Washington, 1789, responding to Clergy
complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ.

"...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horros of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."
George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789

"The blessed Religion revealed in the word of God will remain an eternal and awful monument to prove that the best institutions may be abused by human depravity, and that they may even, in some instances, be made subservient to the vilest of purposes."

"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country
the surest basis of public happiness."
George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790

[George_S]

43. Treaty of Tripoli

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The U.S. is not founded upon religion:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

[malachi]

62. More from TJ and Abe L

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
Thom. Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
A. Lincoln

Quotes as listed in "Salvation for Sale", by Gerard Thomas Straub.

But then again, what did these schmucks know? Scalia is one sick bastard. I'm ashamed that we both grew up in the same city, Trenton NJ.

[Sabriel]

4. This guy is a justice?

Did he answer one of those spams about getting a degree with no work? His argument about the Jews in Europe doesn't even make sense. My 5-year-old would see the flaw.

[KDLarsen]

48. Yeah..

.. it wasn't really the separation of church & state that lead to "Final solution to the Jewish problem", more the assimilation of church & state.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. He's a heavy cigarette smoker, and he's obese.

Let's all root for that mutant cell or migrating speck of plaque that will deliver us from this assface.

[pinkpops]

11. voodoo dolls

[pinkpops]

7. The right wingers are really going out of thir way to

draw Jews into their creepy mindset (those that have not already been drawn in). Look at this site, for example:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com
conspicuously absent are liberal Jewish links.
Now what will happen to Jews once they have been used up?
Hint - think back 60 or so years.

[AndyTiedye]

8. Was That Recorded?

> "...I am not a nut."

If we play this right, this could be like

Nixon's utterance: "I am not a crook"

[Amaya]

9. The man is a disgrace

:puke:

[Gman]

10. "...but I am not a nut."

Dr. Hannibal Lector had a disadvantage that finally did him in too. Lector was insane.

[progdonkey]

12. WHAT. THE. FUCK?!

In the synagogue that is home to America's oldest Jewish congregation, he noted that in Europe, religion-neutral leaders almost never publicly use the word "God."

But, the justice asked, "Did it turn out that, by reason of the separation of church and state, the Jews were safer in Europe than they were in the United States of America? I don't think so."

The fuckers who murdered all those Jews in Europe had "God is with us" on their belts, and their Leader regularly invoked God in his speeches. This is the precise reason why European leaders, especially those in Germany, refrain from invoking God in speeches!

[teryang]

16. Really, talk about revised Nazi history lesson

This asshole is king of the obscurantists, right up there with Lush Rimhole and the other purveyors of facist propaganda.

[DulceDecorum]

21. Once the Jews finish rebuilding that Temple Mount

they are toast.
Those bible thumpers are salivating at the ought of killing them all off,
and if you thought that Israel had a problem with Arafat and the PLO
that is only because you have not had a good hard look at
Sun Myung Moon
Tim and Beverly LaHaye
and Jerry Falwell.

Arafat was a teddy bear and his name was Snuggles,
but he WAS standing between the "Christians" and their bloodbath
and so
he had to go.

[mcscajun]

26. Exactly right...the man suffers from ignorance compounded by time-shifting

Europe wasn't always 'religion-neutral', and that's when the Jews had the most trouble there! Could he perhaps consider that that's part of the reason why Europe is so 'religion-neutral' today? That they're at least trying to put it behind them?

He's a dangerous, truth-twisting, devious son-of-a-bitch. And I'm sorry for insulting female dogs everywhere.

[VegasWolf]

13. Right, lets build our economy, science, performing arts all

around an invisible man in the sky who has Harry Potter powers.

[NYC Liberal]

14. Doesn't matter if it "fits" with history.

It's prohibited by the Constitution! What a dumbass!

And to think, this guy graduated from my high school. :puke:

[lovuian]

15. It infuses Centuries of Persectuion which are forefathers ran from

Inquisition
Catholics persecution
Puritans
on and on and on

[Pig_Latin_Lover]

17. When did "In God We Trust" start anyway?

Could this have been something that was added to our currency later on, like it was in the Pledge? If so, the "God stuff" came well after the founding fathers and is removed from their original intentions.

[mcscajun]

27. Yes it got added later on...

First instance of "In God We Trust" was during the Civil War...but it wasn't on all the currency, and it didn't become formalized until the 50's. Coincidentally, that was the same period in which "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance, at the urging of the Catholic organization, The Knights of Columbus. Both additions were part of the anti-Communist furor that swept this country in the 50s.

So now, Scalia can cite those additions as part of the backbone of this country's legal-religious heritage and use it to build on. UGH.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5701&abbr=cs_

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. Is he really that stupid? Or does he just think we are?

"Scalia told them that while the church-and-state battle rages, the official examples of the presence of faith go back to America's Founding Fathers: the word "God" on U.S. currency; chaplains of various faiths in the military and the legislature; real estate tax-exemption for houses of worship _ and the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance."

God didn't appear on US money until 1862, on a 2cent piece. The US official motto was not "in god we trust", it was E Pluribus Unum, and still should be.

Chaplains -- a good number of the founding fathers argues against them, it was by no means a unanimous decision.

Real estate tax exemption -- it's an example of the separation, not favoratism for religion. As long as religion keeps out of government, government keeps its hands off religion.

Under God -- the nation somehow survived its first 180 years without it.

Fuck off, Scalia.

[gumby]

19. Ah, the "Strict Constructionist" judge

that the neo-fascists just love to luv.

[genieroze]

20. Fascist nutbag

[Kellis]

22. Bite Me Scalia

Take your neo nazi religion and shove it up your ass you fascist pig.


SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE-


We will Prevail.COme hell or High water we WILL PREVAIL

[arabella]

23. Scalia can...

bite my Pagan tushie.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

25. no! don't let him put his lips on you! yuk!

[Is It Fascism Yet]

24. this boy scalia so sucks

All his examples of the intentions of the founder fathers only go back to the 1950's. Doublethink. And he should have been impeached for not recusing himself in 2000 when Shrub's attorney arguing before him was his own son in law. He is a nut. Reminds me of Nixon shaking the jowels and saying "i am not a crook!" Of course, you never have to tell people you're not a nut or a crook if you're not one. Methinks he protests too much.

[AndyTiedye]

32. Scalia's Founding Father Was Joseph McCarthy!

[Is It Fascism Yet]

35. LOL, yeah!

[TroubleMan]

29. Funny...if it we were so steeped in religion, we wouldn't have a military.

Oh wait....he meant the false-prophet, materialistic, hate-filled, money-lenders-in-the-temple type of religion. Well, he might be right there.

[Rose Siding]

30. Jefferson, Paine, Adams, Franklin say: Yes, you are a nut

Thomas Jefferson: The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury to my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

Thomas Paine: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

John Adams: As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Benjamin Franklin: As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...."

Franklin did once suggest that clergy come in to pray at the Constitutional convention. BUT...

<snipped from linked article>
It is rarely noted that Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin's motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers. Furthermore, the context is usually ignored, too. He made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up.

http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

[Kellis]

31. Beautiful~

We need to start printing these quotes up and start distributing them throughout America.

We have GOT to let SANITY rear its sweet head again!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. mrsss Thomas Jefferson, George Washington

and of course Thomas Paine may take exception... maybe we should also ask Mr Franklin...

[elehhhhna]

34. I hope he meant "infects".

[Swamp Rat]

36. They are declaring war against democracy openly now.

[essarhaddon]

38. Just a little but revealing fact

As a godless European, I'd like just to point out how odd it is listening to the POTUS ending a speech with "God Bless America" :eyes: I mean, if the Prime Minister of my country ended a speech with "God Bless you" or something like that, the laughters would be heard in Australia :D

Seriously, I respect whatever choice Americans make regarding God and Politics, but please, tell your President not to come to Europe and suddenly say "God bless Spain" or "God bless France", just save him the resulting chuckles from the audience :evilgrin:

[Rose Siding]

52. "God save the Queen"

-Blair just a couple of years ago (and since then, I suspect)

http://www.clipx.net/politics/tony_blair.php

[foo_bar]

39. it does now

"I am not a nut."

"I am not a crook."

[Skittles]

40. Skittles says bullshit infuses Scalia

gawd he is a f***ing DISGRACE

[George_S]

41. What!!! It was the Supreme Court that sanctioned eugenics...

... long before Hitler came to power. That same fucking Supreme Court.

That FUCKER!

Hitler praised us for our racial hygiene and the Nazis even tried to use our laws as a defense at the Nuremberg trials.

Does he think we are idiots? Does he think Jews are idiots? Are they as insulted as they should be?

We can only hope so.

[George_S]

47. And it wasn't God

It was the Bill of Rights that stopped the U.S. from going as far as Hitler did. And that is all that stopped it.

It was mostly the God-loving, God-fearing Christians who "brought it on."

[renaissanceguy]

42. Tell him to prove there's a God first.

Then I might be inclined to listen to him.

We live in a country where people who claim to spread "God's will," when they're just pushing for their own selfish agenda, while hiding behind their Bibles.

[Carolab]

44. The First Amendment

"The ‘establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining {Page 978} or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between church and State."

Brown vs. Education (1947)

[tbuddha]

45. ...and you can't get rid of him

crap

[LynnTheDem]

46. Actually yes you ARE a nut, Scalia. Also a lying corrupt hypocrite.

And did I mention, a total asshole?

[Vidar]

49. Isn't this the "orgies to relieve" tension guy ?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

50. A 'textualist.' That is his failing as a human. Be a 'humanist' instead.

"I suggest that our jurisprudence should comport with our actions,"

Well, that must be why American torture and murder was 'legalized.'

Read my sig quote to know what Dominionism is. (If that feature is working. It's the quote about gov't being divine and democracy interfering with God.)

[yellowcanine]

51. Scalia needs to read some European history. The separation of

Church and State in Europe, as far as it goes - is a relatively recent thing. And it doesn't go all that far. England still has a state church AND the Queen of England is the head of the Church of England. You can't get more entwined than that. In fact, one could argue - and many do, that the relative low rate of church service attendance in Europe is BECAUSE of the existance of state churches - not because of an official policy of separation of church and state.

Prior to the Nazis - the vast majority of Jewish pograms were religion based. Has the judge ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition? And as for the Nazis, one reason they got away with what they did was because of the silence of the churches - state based and otherwise. Don't forget, the Pope himself signed a Concordat with Hitler in 1933 to protect Catholic Church interests - yes it was before the Holocaust, but a cursory reading of Mein Kampf would have clued the Pope in to the evil nature of Hitler and still he signed for self-serving reasons.

As for whether the judge is a nut or not - I would say that is open for debate.

[Kellis]

53. Isn't there ANYTHING

we can do to get this obvious lunatic who disregards the constitution so blatantly DISBARRED!!???

Come ON!! Where are the lawyers filing suit in defense of our constitution!???

[RuleofLaw]

54. As a Dane I am offended

by the POS Scalia.

"In the synagogue that is home to America's oldest Jewish congregation, he noted that in Europe, religion-neutral leaders almost never publicly use the word "God."

But, the justice asked, "Did it turn out that, by reason of the separation of church and state, the Jews were safer in Europe than they were in the United States of America? I don't think so."

Denmark has a state Church (Lutheran) but no one cares what the religion a politician has.


During WWII Denmark managed to help almost 100% of its Jewish population flee to Sweden. This happened during the German occupation. There is even a Danish fishing boat at the Smithsonian to prove it. http://www.ushmm.org/education/foreducators/resource/pebrochure.pdf

What an idiot.

[Retrograde]

61. IIRC, some European countries still have established churches

Germany collects taxes on behalf of some churches (see http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/info/archives/background/church.html for details), and I think the Scandanavian countries still have established churches.

Maybe the way to deal with this administration is to carry their proposals to their logical extremes. Scalia wants more religion in government, does he? Let's bring back the old European principal of cuius regio, eius religion - simply put, everybody adopts the religion of the ruler. Or doesn't Scalia want to be a Baptist or whatever Bush is? Tough: if they're going to take this country to the dogs I say they should do it with style.

Yours for No More Halfway Measures,

linda (just joking, really - I think)

[napi21]

55. What is an "originalist" and a "textualist"?

I would think it means relying on the original text of the constitution, but that doesn't seem to be what he's thinking. Does it mean something else?

[mumon]

56. Earth to Scalia:

which country is he talking about?

Poland: no separation of church & state there: hell, go to Warsaw, the Churches are basically built to enter right into the Presidential Palace!

Germany: no separation there. In fact, you have to get a Christian name to be a German citizen.

France? OK, France, but it was their inept military, not their religious values that endangered them.

The Soviet Union? OK, the USSR, but at least they were safe from Paul and Jan and Jim and Tammy Faye!

[President Jesus]

57. as if the US bible-thumping population didn't perpetrate a holocaust on...

...blacks and native Americans for centuries.

[animuscitizen]

59. I would like to answer Scalia with the federalist idea of neutrality...

James Madison always expressed a degree of distrust of religious institutions in general, especially when aligned with the government. He emphasized that allowing minor cracks in the wall separating religion and government tend to grow with time, threatening the autonomy of both. Religious "enthusiasm", he said, is dangerous for any government that reflects the will of the people, for it often leads people to do things they might otherwise regret.

Religious differences are frequent sources of conflict, both within and between nations. The connection between war making and religious fervor is no accident. When leaders wrap their policies around the emotionally charged rhetoric of religion, the possibility of both thoughtful deliberation and tolerance of criticism diminishes. Patriotism is dangerous enough, but when religious fervor is added to the mix, the results are rarely helpful and often disastrous.

[CatholicEug]

60. I agree with one statement

this IS a religious country. For better or worse, the United States is a nation of believers, especially when compared with Western Europe.

[geniph]

63. I really love the way they're building that bridge to the 12th Century

Dark Ages, here we come (again). Those who cannot learn from history...I mean, come on, the last time we mixed religion and politics, people got burned at the stake. Is that really what we want? Is it REALLY?