Baby dies after mother reports cutting off arms (Plano, TX)

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2913542

A mother cut off the arms of her baby daughte today, then called 911 and waited calmly until authorities arrived, police said.

Dena Schlosser, 35, was charged with capital murder after the girl died at a hospital in Plano, a Dallas suburb. Child-protective authorities said Schlosser had a history of post-partum depression but there had been no signs of violence. Neighbors said she seemed to be a loving, attentive mother.

Authorities said when they arrived at the family's apartment, they found the nearly 11-month-old baby in a bedroom with her arms severed. Schlosser, covered in blood, was sitting in her living room, police spokesman Carl Duke said.

"She wasn't trying to hide," Duke said.

[mike_c]

1. oh I could have gone all night without reading this....

That is so tragic.

[donheld]

2. I could have too

what have we as a country become

[mike_c]

10. I'm sorry, this isn't a national phenomenon....

This is one family's tragedy. This is truly awful.

[donheld]

13. Your right, however,

stuff like this seems to be happening all too often.

[buff2]

It's not just in Texas

Kids are being tortured all over the country. You can pick up the paper any day of the week and read where they are being locked up in closets,starved,beaten,chained to beds and on and on and on.Something needs to be done about it,but the repukes are too busy worrying about their "morality"....what we can and can't see on TV and of course abortions. x(

[DemBones DemBones]

115. Funny you should mention that, because

I was an adult when Roe v. Wade legalized abortion on demand, and it's certainly my impression that violence against children, and in fact all sorts of violence, has increased dramatically since that time. I began to see this about ten years after Roe.

Now, I'm not saying abortion causes such acts, but a society that condones abortion in all situations as "choice" doesn't value life as much as it should. We have made our own unborn children the enemy and declared that they may be killed at our convenience, not only in situations where the mother's life is in danger or when a woman is pregnant by rape or incest, in which case abortion might be justifiable as killing in self-defense. Most abortions are not of pregnancies due to rape or incest, and very few pregnancies endanger the mother's life.

That attitude, plus the violence that we see on television and in movies, are bound to be factors in tragedies like this one. Of course, our culture's current lack of respect for life makes tapes of beheadings and other grisly deaths sell well and influences a lot of people to support wars and the death penalty. That means it works to support the interests of the upper economic classes, who are glad to see the rest of us abort some of our children and send the rest off to die for their country.

We do need a moral reawakening, though I pray that when it comes it won't mean the success of conservatives' views but of true liberal respect for human life, respect that includes the living of every age and the unborn, and recognizes the need for economic justice. Conservatives get it about abortion but are hopelessly wrong about pretty much everything else. Liberals are hopelessly wrong about abortion but get it about everything else. We're actually ahead, therefore, when it comes to values but our lack of concern for the lives of unborn babies is something we need to change.

[wolfgirl]

121. I think this may be more

of a situation where women are not getting adequate healthcare. Women come in, have the baby and w/in 24 hours are home. There is no follow up, most women don't have the $$ or time to get in to see a doctor on a regular basis to talk about the problems they are facing as a result of giving birth. And if they do get in, you only get 15 ninutes of time w/the doctor (if you're lucky).

Abortion is not the cause. It's lack of real comprehensive healthcare.

[Ilsa]

125. Home health nurses are needed.with special training

to recognize the signs.

This happened 11 months after birth. That woman's PPD has been stewing for awhile, and she should have had at least one doctor's visit. The baby would have had at least five checkups at the pediatrician. This is, of course, provided the woman had insurance.

[TheWraith]

148. You need "special training" to recognize a brewing psychotic episode?

Anyone around this woman should have seen that she was losing it.

On edit: And apparently they did. I just read that she was getting psychiatric counseling. Too bad it didn't work.

[Ilsa]

152. No, I'm talking about the conditions that can bring on

depression, which can lead to psychosis. There really are some interesting symptoms of blues becoming a depression that can emerge before someone gets outright psychotic. After all, this was 11 mos after the birth.

[George_S]

238. What if it were a man?

Suffering from depression? In fact, if it were and he only slapped the woman we would be yelling "Off with his head!" And it wouldn't matter if the woman contributed to the argument or not.

[demigoddess]

217. Amen, I agree

I had to skip a couple of post partum checkups because they did not allow children in the clinic and there was no child care and my husband was away. (we were military, and away from family) even if we had the access to healthcare. What we really need is a visiting nurse program to visit the mothers when they cannot come in for care after birth. Post partum is nothing to mess with and OBs should know that.

[fugue]

127. Garbage

I was a child who would've been aborted if Roe had only occurred ten years sooner. My mother tried several times to get an abortion, but the damage the pregnancy was doing to her wasn't lethal (although it was permanent) and being raped by your husband wasn't rape in the sixties. She abused me for twenty years because she wanted to make me suffer for existing.

Abortion would've spared me. I wish the country had gotten a clue sooner.

[renate]

198. oh no....

fugue, I am so truly, truly, truly sorry.
What you wrote just breaks my heart. Please know that everyone who reads your post surely feels the same way and is just so sorry for all the pain you have suffered.

[HuskerDem]

200. I'm glad you are here fugue - but then again...........

I think I give GOD more credit than many others. I wish you didn't have to go through what you did but have you ever read "Toxic Parents"?

try it.

[buff2]

144. It's a lot less painful to the child

if aborted early on. I would rather see that,then for these women to have their unwanted babies and then beating them,neglecting them,starving them and letting them live long enough to torture them severely only to kill them later on. I just don't understand the logic of people who are AGAINST abortions,thinks it's best for the children to be born to mothers or parents who doesn't want them and then treats them worse than an animal. Where is the logic in it? Are "moral values" more important than the care and SAFETY of these unwanted children? God.....it makes me sick to think about it. :puke:

[KamaAina]

156. Then why does this keep happening in anti-choice red states?

It doesn't get any brighter red than Plano: ultra-fundie, Boosh-lovin', lily-white yupscale Dallas suburb. And yet this is where it happened. Andrea Yates: same story, same state, different area (Houston?)

Wouldn't we have seen an upsurge in violence against children first in the states where abortion was legal pre-Roe, like New York and Hawai'i? Or, could it be that other factors are in play: a greater awareness of domestic violence, more graphic violence on TV </lieberman>, heavier use of psychotrpic meds, etc., etc.?

[jagasian]

212. You are wrong.

I live in Plano. Yes it is mostly a pro-Republican area, but that doesn't mean that everybody here is pro-Bush. If a black person does something bad, does that make them all bad? How would you like it if somebody wrote off the entire USA because a few more percent of the population chose Bush over Kerry?

Furthermore, I have driven past the apartments where this happened, and they are definitely NOT "lily-white yupscale". The apartments are not a slum either, but I would say that they are middle to lower middle class apartments, with a healthy amount of minorities. But none of that has anything to do with it, does it?

The consistent profile that I have noticed for these types of cases is that the mother has multiple children, with most of the responsibility placed on her for raising them... plus a heavy amount of Christian fundamentalism (the PC term is "evangelical" but I call them "fundie").

Now I am not sure if religion has anything to do with it, but it is a pretty safe bet that the husbands are somewhat to blame. How humane is it to treat your wife like a baby factory, nurse, day care, teacher, cook, etc, all in one? Many women pull it off, but that is most likely because they get physical and emotional support from their hubby.

[Cheswick2.0]

162. women cut off their kids arms because of abortion

Post Partum depression psychosis is the fault of liberals and women who get abortions.

You haven't just drunk the cool aid, you're taking a freaking bath in it.

[dmr]

166. This has nothing to do with abortion, and I can't believe

you would use this as an opportunity to make that association.

I was born in the relaxed 50s, during the pre-choice days, and I was an abused, throw away child. Throughout history, sadly, children have been victims of abuse, so that blows your impression out of the water.

The moral reawakening you speak of is to assure that all women have choices, along with fair and proper access to any medical care that they need.

The article states this mother did receive psychiatric help, apparently it was not adequate or appropriate for her needs, or for the safety of her children. None of us know what mental anguish this mother was under to do such a horrendous thing to her child.

[George_S]

237. what mental anguish this mother?

If it were a man, would you care?

[struggle4progress]

171. The English have kept records on crime for about a thousand years.

And if you read the stuff from the middle ages you'll find the same stories: Pregnant girl gives birth and abandons the baby in a garbage dump, or Daddy comes home drunk and throws the toddler against the wall; etc etc.

[jdj]

177. I would be really interested in reading some of this

how do you access this stuff?

[struggle4progress]

184. Maybe some of its online but I've always used good university libraries.

Because the English law has been precedent-based since almost immediately after the Norman invasion, the English kept legal records and legal historians have reprinted a lot of the old legal stuff: if you're interested in old English law, look (for example) for stuff published by the Seldon society.

Also, the Crown very early saw an opportunity to maintain good public order and earn cold hard cash by requiring multiple records of shire homocides, fining local authorities whenever the annual reports couldn't be reconciled. Another sort of available record comes from the commercial broadsides profiteering from public executions. In a real good library, there will be lots of historical material in the criminology section.

Sorry not to be more help but I'm merely a hobbyist, and it's been twenty years since I was looking at this stuff.

[jdj]

176. phew, what a pile.

What you have witnessed is an increase of media coverage of violence against children as an increase in prevalence of visual media itself.

Did you know that the history of humanity includes a bunch of wars, which are notoriously unkind to children?

Did you know that women have aborted fetuses since the beginning of time, legal or not?

Do you really mean to suggest that were abortion illegal in this country we would not be in Iraq slaughtering the innocent because we would somehow be more moral overnight? Or that that would prevent us from embarking on that series of major theatre wars salivated after by the PNAC?

Did you know that we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki when abortion was illegal, and that nukes don't skip over kids, but instead have caused abortions (miscarriages) and birth defects galore since then?

Have you not heard about the atrocities during slavery, practiced when abortion was illegal, or about the genocide on native americans, when abortion was also illegal, and both of which happened pre-televsion and pre-video game? Naw baby, dream on.

[Mandate My Ass]

191. That has to be the most

stupid, woman-hating post I've ever read on DU and it even taking into account the sickeningly misogynist threads that came up during the Kobe Bryant rape indictment.

We have made our own unborn children the enemy and declared that they may be killed at our convenience...

Funny, some people think of abortion as a perfectly legal medical procedure and not pre-emptive strike or "killing" of any sort. Your insistence of calling any contents of the womb a baby or child is indicative of your ignorance of biology and your bias against women's reproductive choice, a fundamental human right.

Moral reawakening? Heal thyself.

[HuskerDem]

202. You hold two bits today

my favorite post
my favorite name

[talk hard]

196. Dude! Are you high?

Are you kidding me?

Stuff like this happens because people don't have abortions. America's finest white trash keeps pumping 'em out with no means to support them.

BTW, abortions are at an all time low.

But this is a personal issue that is none of your damn business. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. But don't assign blame gratuitously to punctuate your point.

This woman should have had an abortion. She clearly was not up to the task of being a mother. Better you should sew her legs together.

This is a huge tragedy that is a byproduct of our society's screwed-up view on abortion. Do you seriously think this child was better off being born only to have met the fate she did?

[maxrandb]

226. Just a Correction

Abortions are actually ON THE RISE since * was selected by God. Please never miss an opportunity to make this point.

During "moral" Reagan, the rate of legal abortions rose steadily. Under "immoral" Clinton, legal abortions were reduced to their lowest level since Roe v Wade. Since 2001, abortions are once again on the rise. Check the Institutes for Health and the CDC for stats.

I have a theory as to why this is. Although Dems may never support an outright ban on abortion, statistics show that sound economic policy, strong support systems, education, sex education, and even access to contraceptives, reduces unwanted pregnancy, and also abortions.

A couple of my observations. People see the most powerful country in the world dropping "daisy cutters" on woman and children. We see people making meat pyramids of naked prisoners, simply because we can. We see people under our flag shooting unarmed, injured people. We see our troops with smiley faces on their sniper rifles. We have been willing participants while our leaders have successfully "dehumanized" an entire race of people as Godless barbarians.

I'm sure this had NOTHING to do with what is called our "culture of life".

Second observation is that this woman was also found with a religious hymn playing on the stereo and was quoting some sick biblical passages leading up to this. I'll bet you she was against gay marriage too. SHE IS THE QUINTESSENTIAL BOOOOSH VOTER.

[AngryOldDem]

233. Exactly

The statistics of abortion under Reagan, Clinton, and Bush should be shouted from the rooftops.

[HuskerDem]

199. Pure D grade BU:LLSIHIT

There is nothing so false as the utopian propeganda being pimped about the "good old days".

If you seek to marry your daughters away at 15 or endorse abortion by baseball bat, or............... you simply support the subjegation of females............ or you think it is you right to empose your religious views upon my womb...............

You can just bugger off.

[Walt Starr]

209. The same shit happened 100 years ago

It just didn't have a 24X7 mass infotainment indutry driving it into everybody's homes.

When I was an abused child, child abuse was kept in the closet.

[The Flaming Red Head]

227. There are times when women need to be able to choose

Some of the most ardent supporters of the pro-life movement are the first ones to sneak in the back door of the clinic when they or their daughters find themselves in a situation when they feel abortion is their only option.

Who are you to pass judgment on women who have had abortions?

I'm glad I made the choice I did (and I don't feel the need to share my reasons) and I thank God every day, that I made that choice and that it was safe and legal, and that people like you aren't in charge of my body or my life.

[Raiden]

3. That's disgusting!

I can hear the freepers now: "LIBERALS love this sort of thing so long as it happens when the baby is still inside the mother!"

[juliagoolia]

4. how horrible.. i might just be ill

why oh why do these mentally ill women get left to kill kids..
why oh why aren't we stopping them..
this happens all the time it seems in tx! damn damn damn damn damn.


MENTAL ILLNESS is REAL.. we need to screen mothers when they go in for checkups!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im sick now..

[xpunkisneatx]

7. Post partum depression scares me...

I am honestly afraid of having children because of my history with depression...Such an awful thing to have to go through...I hope she gets the help she needs.

[abburdlen]

11. post-partum?

"...11-month-old baby"
Am I mistaken that PPD is generally over by 6 months?

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. No

It can last for years. But it is rare that women actually harm their children. What that poor child endured is just unimaginable. I know I should feel compassion for the woman, but I don't. She should have given the child up for adoption.

[abburdlen]

22. Obviously she should have

given the child up, or gone to seek help, but she clearly wasn't capable of rational thought.

Maybe it's because I was up until 2am with my 4 month old last night, but I do feel compassion for the woman. There's enough tragedy in this story to go around.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. I would be asked to be removed in the voir dire.

I stayed up late nights AND had to deal with failing health. I also had little or not much of a support system. I would have walked out, before harming the kids. I would have prayed that God just take me in the night, before harming the kids.

The fairest thing I can do for that woman is to recuse myself from the jury.

[abburdlen]

40. The point is

She is obviously ill. What you or I would have done isn't relevent.
I have pity for her because the best she can hope for is one day she'll be 'sane' enough to realize what she's done.

[juliagoolia]

81. When you are ill---mentally ill

You do not have rational thought, you can not make rational decisions, and you do not know you are ill.

I have a daughter...she is ill.. She is mentally ill.
Not until she was 27 did she realize she was mentally ill, and that was after several hospitalizations. After years of therapy, after having three children and her husband having to quit his job to watch the children.

Once she saw it, the kids ARE now put in day care all the time while her husband works. HE DROPS THEM OFF/ HE PICKS THEM UP.

I took the first child against her will. The second she seemed stable, but when the third came all hell broke loose. She's been struggling ever since. No she should not have had the children. Thats true. Facts are facts, even mentally ill people get pregnant THEY JUST DONT USE GOOD JUDGEMENT.

We as a family grouped together to care for the kids, and never was she left alone with them. This has caused me tremendous financial hardships, and has been horrible to manage.

I've seen what is a normal looking girl most the time go absolutely bizerk, kick our her own windshield, tear apart a home while left alone inside of it for 30 mins, throw bricks at her own car, try to attack policemen, attack large men.. I could go on and on..

but the point is..

one day she got the right meds, and three days later she looked at me and said...

Its me mom, isn't it? Why yes, it is you I said.

Since then..since she has seen the world through sane eyes finally she knows it was her all along. Now she will more likely lock herself in a room or leave rather than do harm to anyone or anything like that. She has put her own self into the hospital and is heroic in working with her meds and drs. This mind you is after about a half million dollars in psych care starting at age 12.

You see if you are suddenly ill, and don't know it, you can't see you are even ill, you can't see reality through the illness. Mental illness is gradual. You gradually go from being slighty upset to the next day things are just not right,(YOU SEE THE DOG POOP INSTEAD OF THE FLOWERS ON YOUR DAILY WALK) then you are more upset and more things are not right until finally you are out of your mind and the world is mishapen and falling in or attacking YOU. At some point a mentally ill person (depending on the illness)detaches completely from reality. I've seen people playing ping pong alone. I've met people who have seen dionsaurs in their bedrooms and think they are real.

You and I do not have this as our reality so we best be careful what we think others would, should or could do.

If you try to make sense of this you wont be able to because it is NOT LOGICAL and it does not make sense.

There is no person that is less valuable than another person. Even the baby.. the baby is precious and holy and valuable, so is the mother even if she is sick. OK go ahead and flame me..

I can take it.. I've been beat up by mentally ill people so go for it.

[Ilsa]

126. No flame from me. Just a huge hug.

You did everything you had to in order to protect your family, including your sick daughter, especially in a system that is late in recognizing problems if at all. A thousand blessings to you.

[searchingforlight]

128. This is a beautiful post. Why?

Because it tells the truth in a heroic way. You, your family and your daughter are testimony to the kind of understanding and determination that we need to take this country into the future. Thank you.

[Mad_Dem_X]

138. No flame here - thank you for posting this

I completely agree; when you are ill, nothing makes sense, you have little or no sense of right and wrong. The illness controls you. For twenty years I lived with panic disorder and all kinds of mental stuff until I finally got a good balance of medication and therapy, at age 34. For the first time in my life I felt sane. One of the first things I did was apologise to my husband and family for everything I put them through over the years. They basically just said, "It's okay' we're just glad you're better."

[jagasian]

213. She tried to run away.

In most of the news articles about this incident, they account how the mom tried to run away once, leaving her baby behind alone in the apartment. Yes what she did was wrong and she should certainly be punished, but her husband and other people around her need to take some of the blame too. They should have seen the running away as a cry for help... a last ditch effort.

She should have been separated from her baby then.

[BeHereNow]

33. She was DRUGGED- NO doubt in my mind

her fucking physician, eager to receive the "kick back"
from the Pharma Cartel, had most likely prescribed her one
of the plethora of anti-depressants on the market.
She had an adverse drug reaction- NO DOUBT in my mind.
Having had one myself, I KNOW.
But will this connection ever see the light of day?
No. Why?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
God Damn those people.
God DAMN then to hell.
There was NO reason for this to happen other than GREED.
bhn

[American Tragedy]

159. That's pretty presumptuous of you to say

Antidepressants have changed thousands of people's lives for the better. I should know.

There are risks in any course of action.

Before she went on antidepressants, it was established that she had a serious mental condition caused by her hormones. She went to the doctor to treat that chemical imbalance. Sitting down and complaining for an hour every week is not going to resolve a physiological problem like that.

Sometimes medication works, sometimes it doesn't. You can't possibly say for certain that she would have been better without treatment.

[talk hard]

197. Or needed to be drugged.

Take a look at her picture.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jwirr]

41. While I am horrified with this

we need to realize that there is a difference between a person who is torturing a child and a mentally ill person who does something like this. In reality she probably did not even realize she was hurting her child. The torturer realizes very well and is enjoying it. Something went very wrong in this woman's mind and she was no longer dealing with reality. She may not even have known that she was dealing with a real live human being. I to would like to see screening for this but the problem is that persons who have mental illnesses do not always exhibit the signs until the actual moment of breaking. So how do we find them so they can be helped before something like this happens?

[jagasian]

214. There is no difference.

By very definition, you have to be mentally ill to torture somebody.

[Cheswick2.0]

163. That is the funny thing about psychosis

when you have it you are not capable of making rational choices. If you had it you wouldn't be any different.

[NYC]

16. It can last longer.

[Pithlet]

77. This isn't just post partum depression

This sounds like Post Partum Psychosis, which is what Andrea Yates is said to have suffered from.

[schultzee]

95. Not always. I had a friend who had to be hospitalized for it. It can

be very serious.

[GinaMaria]

157. PPD doesn't just disappear if it's left untreated

the woman could end up with post partum psychosis. PPD can occur days or weeks after delivery when women are no longer monitored as carefully by medical professionals.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

118. because of my history with depression

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dha+post+partum&btnG=Google+Search

[radwriter0555]

129. This was much deeper than PPD, this was a horrific psychotic break

probably compounded by the meds that they put her on.

So far, it sounds like the available services were in place and working.

Short of locking her up for being SUSPECTED of being a danger, what more could someone have done, if indeed, all these things took place?

[RamboLiberal]

8. I think a lot of it happens cause we have a system

that doesn't follow-up with women after they have a child. I still remember Dr. Howard Dean talking about the follow-up program they had in Vermont.

And I think we have overwhelmed, understaffed, underpaid child social services in this country.

In this case all the warning signs were there.

Too bad the Repugs don't want to throw all the energy and money to taking care of children after they arrive instead of worrying that some ferilized egg may be used to cure an illness instead of going in the garbage.

[SharonAnn]

167. Yes, you're absolutely right. I work with a Child Advocacy Center

here in Tennessee, a red state with lots of fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, and see plenty of it.

We primarily deal with children who are sexually abused. The stories would curl your hair! And, other than a state grant that pays for less than 25% of what it costs to run this place, it's privately funded. That's because Tennessee doesn't provide the needed services to these children or their families.

Forgive me, but a year ago when a grandfather killed himself rather than go to trial the next day on charges of abusing two granddaughters I was glad. There were witnesses and victims who verified that he had been abusing children for over 50 years! His daughters, nieces, their friends, granddaughters, their friends, enighbors, etc.

Can you imagine what it has cost these children and our society for this to have continued for so long and had so many children untreated?

[ilovenicepeople]

76. The New Freedom Initiative might of saved us from this tragedy?

It's a good thing that the will be screening all pregnant women.It will stop this from happening ever again.

[The Sad Little Pony]

123. Anything...

...called the "New freedom Initiative" frightens me.


I don't even know what it is.

[LeighAnn]

97. That sort of stuff drives people away from pre-natal care

Better to create an environment where people aren't afraid to get help. "Screenings" often drive away the very people who need them the most (for fear of being put on drugs, losing their kids, prosecution, etc.)


Mental illness is real, but what's also real is that women are being dosed up with cocktails of anti-depressants and anti-psychotics right after childbirth to combat a condition which in and of itself is temporary (and which the HMOs are also to blame, beings how they "encourage" speedy deliveries with painful and harmful induced labors, then throw the mother out in 48 hours).

Maybe some of these "treatments" aren't so successful?

Doesn't Bush think that everybody needs a "screening"?

[Nikepallas]

5. OH!!! I didn't need to read this...

That poor baby

[SaintAnne]

6. sad

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[TexasChick]

9. Yep, saw an excerpt of this story for the nightly news. Plano is just two

cities away from me here in McKinney. You ought to have heard her on the 9/11 call. This woman act like it was nothing, calm and collective! Truly sick! I will pray for that sweet baby tonight. God bless her!!

[LisaL]

17. This story seems to keep happening in Texas.

What, is there something in the water up there?
One drowns her children, the other stones them to death, and now this one cuts her child's hands off?
I wonder who told her to do it? There is always someone who told them to do it, God, Devil, or even a spider.
:mad:

[TexasChick]

27. Don't know, lizzy. Plano is somewhat upstate, not too upstate, but a

nice city, so I'm surprised this happened there. She seemed like a single parent though, so maybe she was having hard times, dunno...I certainly wouldn't kill my baby for having hard times. Could also be drug related! :shrug:

[BeHereNow]

29. ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY Drug related

See my post below-
and have a gander at this: Andrea Yates who drowned her children
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/drownings/1360510
FUCK THE PHARMA CARTEL!
FUCKING MURDEROUS SONS OF BITCHES!
bhn

[elehhhhna]

52. Andea offed the kids after her meds were cut.

[BeHereNow]

68. Read this:

http://www.counterpunch.org/prozacsuicide.html
David Healy has been sounding the alarm on this for YEARS.
He lost his job over it.
BHN

[PatGund]

150. Sorry

If a Scientology-backed group said rock was hard, I'd use stone for a pillow. They have absolutely no credibility.

And, unless you can prove that the woman in question was on some form of SSRI, it's irresponsible for you to make that claim.

[Pithlet]

86. You know for sure that that woman was on medication

and that this was the cause of what she did? You're this woman's doctor, or you know her personally?

[BeHereNow]

99. What do YOU know about ADR?

Obviously NOTHING.
I am willing to lay money on it RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW.
Are you willing to bet she was NOT on medication?
Her actions are CLASSIC ADR.
bhn

[Pithlet]

103. I'm not willing to bet anything.

Because I don't know. I'm not the one making the claims, here. You are.

[BeHereNow]

106. Yes, and the difference between you and me is:

KNOWLEDGE.
You have only been schooled in ONE side of the topic.
I, on the other hand, know BOTH sides of the issue.
My claims are based in research, personal interviews and personal
experience.
Your theories are?
That Scientologists are evil and the ONLY people fighting
this battle?
Peace-
BHN

[Pithlet]

112. You have no idea what I've been schooled in

More conclusion jumping.

So, your claims are based on research. You're a scientific researcher? You have degrees in medicine, biology and pharmacology? Really?

[Pithlet]

113. Also, I never claimed

that Scientologists are the only people fighting anything. I only pointed out that one of the sources you linked to was a Scientology group. A lot of people might be interested in that fact, and it's not one that is immediately obvious, so I felt I needed to point that out. Scientology has a nasty reputation, and for good reason.

[PaulaFarrell]

122. She was NOT a single parent

Quit blaming us single parents all the time - the father was at work at the time, and knew she'd been acting strangely and she was seeing a psychiatrist.

also, on edit, PLano is the wealthiest suburb of Dallas, so it's not likely she was having financial difficulties

[rainbow4321]

137. Time out..you are wrong...

Plano is often called the "wealthy" city but there are PLENTY of us working folk, also. Drive around our city and you will see how diverse the income level really is....just because this family lived here does NOT mean they didn't have money problems. My friend's spouse killed himself over family money problems a few yrs ago..my daughter's best friend is having to move out of state because her father cannot find a job around here.
For the record, the family involved here lived in an apartment complex near my hospital..not a fancy place by any means. They were not in the huge mansions over in West Plano.
Please don't generalize about this city or the families..while there are those that throw their money around like it is water, there are just as many who live paycheck to paycheck.

[TexasChick]

183. Let me ask you something Paula, pal! Was I blaming every effin'

single parent? NO!! I said that as MAYBE A REASONING behind her behavior! Here, let me recap for you what I said:

She seemed like a single parent though, so maybe she was having hard times, dunno

Now, I ask you, does that look like I am blaming all single parents? No, hence the word "dunno". In fact, I wasn't even sure at the time of her marital status! What this says, in case you don't quite understand English, is that she MAY HAVE been a single mother with financial problems!

So, let me make a suggestion to you, why don't you learn English and interpret it correctly before you go spewing out nonsense to set up your own argument!

[Horse with no Name]

39. Something that is disturbing as well

The majority of the communities that these are occurring in are affluent communities.
The drownings were in Clear Lake...5 children...The stonings were in Tyler...killed 2 injured 1...Plano...mother kills sleeping child, has her all tucked in bed like nothing happened...Plano...Mother cuts off babies arms...Deep Ellum a Father calls his wife and murders his two daughters on the telephone so his wife doesn't miss a scream. Then we had Darly Routier who was convicted of murdering her two toddler boys in Rowlett. Don't forget we also brought you the two children in Denton who lured their toddler brother to a field and killed him..of course, they burned the school down first.
I live here in Texas and I worked at a Childrens Hospital. One of the busiest times in the Emergency Room was when the Dallas Cowboys lost, with many of the visits being abuse related.

It's a sad state of affairs but I don't have the answers as to why the majority of these crimes are in Texas.

[elehhhhna]

47. dont forget the couple on the border who decap'd, what?, three toddlers.

texas IS a big state, folks. Lotsa people here...

[RedEarth]

143. lizzy.........look at this New Hampshire mom

that threatened to sacrifice her child....look at the cross burning in Long Island, the mom in the Carolinas that drown her kids, Jeffery Dalmer(Ill.) that ate his victims, the Green River serial killer in the NW....the world, our country is full of sick people and NOT ONE STATE has a monopoly on it. Lizzy....how about your state is it immune from all the sick things that people do to each other? I doubt it....btw, which state do you live in?

Farmington mom threatens to sacrifice child at Rochester church
By NATE PARDUE

Democrat Staff Writer

ROCHESTER — A Farmington woman and her boyfriend were arrested and her three children put into state custody after she threatened to sacrifice at least one of the children inside St. Mary’s Church.

Nicole Mancini, 29, of 8 Peaceful Pines Circle, and her boyfriend, John Thurber, 35, of Four Rod Road in Rochester, were arrested Wednesday after they entered the Lowell Street church with her three children.

The incident occurred about 3 p.m. and was reported to police by church staff who encountered the group inside.

Police reported Mancini forced her way into the church, but Parish Secretary Donna Landolfi said she buzzed the group inside, as often happens when people come to the church during nonservice hours.

"Most of the time when people come in, they need a bag of food or are in need of assistance, especially during this time of year," said Landolfi, who has worked at the church for the past nine years.

Mancini and Thurber were both charged with endangering the welfare of a child. Thurber was also charged with possession of marijuana.

Police said Mancini stated she wanted to sacrifice all three children, but Landolfi said Mancini only wanted to sacrifice one of the children. The children are aged 9, 7, and 2, according to police.

The three children were removed from the couple’s care and put into custody of DCYF. No one was injured.

http://www.fosters.com/november_2004/11.12.04/news/ro_1...

[Straight Shooter]

32. Acting calm and collective, it could be shock

People react very strangely when faced with the horror of their own deeds. It's a self-protective mechanism.

I am so sorry for that little baby. I am so sorry for the betrayal.

[BeHereNow]

43. Uh, NO...she was in the midst

of an ADVERSE DRUG REACTION.
I know, I have been there.
OUt of body, out of your fucking mind all
because the Pharma Cartel is LYING about the
dangers of their drugs.
If this woman suffered PPD, I assure you , she
was on a cocktail from hell of prescription drugs.
bhn

[bliss_eternal]

62. BeHereNow makes a good point. This is a distinct possibility

I've had allergic reations to pharmaceuticals. I didn't learn that was what I had experienced until many years later, when I started seeing an allergist and learned what anaphylatic shock is. I could have died and not ONE doctor acknowledged what I was having as such.

I only went through this because the meds I was taking that were doing their job just fine were OLD. Old and cheap--they didn't make as much if anything from them. So they wanted me to take the NEWER more expensive meds. No matter that they almost killed me.

I haven't been through postpartum, as I don't have children. But I wouldn't trust today's healthcare system to treat it appropriately.

I pray for this poor woman and her baby. :(

[barb162]

110. I wouldn't trust today's healthcare system to treat it....

you are so right. I think there is a lot of mis- medicating and the drugmakers are screwing up royally, re the recent Merck fiasco where they ahd the data and didn't bother teling anyone for a few yrs. their drug was KILLING people. That is just one little example of what is going on. And the FDA isn't doing its job; the drugmakers basically "own" the FDA and are killing and injuring people

[luaneryder]

124. It could also be that her meds had been cut

or reduced (if she were on any) and she was expereincing WD. WD from Paxil, Prozac, Effexor can be hideous and something I have personally suffered. This poor family now has a lifetime of misery, grief, regret, self loathing to deal with.

[genieroze]

12. What????? Oh my God!

:wtf: :wow:

[buff2]

15. That's it

This whole country has gone NUTS. My God..I can't even stand to think about that happening to that poor little baby. :cry:

[__Inanna__]

20. There are no words

to describe the horror of this.

That poor little helpless baby.........

[buff2]

24. I know.....

I am really depressed after reading that.

[intheozone]

18. WTF is in the water in Texas??

How many cases like this happen in that fucking state??? Is everyone in that state a nutcase? Obviously, sick people in Texas do not get the help they need. Well, this will be the case for the whole damn country by the end of the next 4 years. Shit, damn it all to hell!

[LisaL]

19. Sadly, I agree.

Sick people in Texas do not get the help they need.
:scared:

[ChickMagic]

134. They think they do

She was singing religious hymns when the police arrived. I heard that on Dallas' CBS channel. She was probably getting "counseling" at the local Baptodome.

[janx]

165. Who was? The woman that this story is about?

[HuskerDem]

204. PRAISE be to alll the Bush faith-based council- isms.

WTG. bastards.

[PassingFair]

182. Bingo!

If what you say is true, it doesn't surprise me at ALL. A major connection in these cases is religious influence.

These sick people are aided and abetted by the loonies in their churches that also belief that the voice in their head may be god, or is it SATAN? They are also encouraged to abdicate responsibility and leave situations up to god's will.

[WindRavenX]

21. Texas' water is shit

High concentrations of mercury and other crap. And not to mention the shit in the air...
I have no doubt in my mind that the chemicals in the enviroment (that we put in it!) are causing these things.

[NYC]

25. Mad as a hatter.

Milliners breathed mercury fumes. This gave rise to the expression "mad as a hatter".

[WindRavenX]

26. yup

I just think people may be overlooking the role of enviromental toxins as a rise in depression/mental illness/ etc.

[TexasChick]

30. Okay...not fair!! LOL!! Not everyone in this state are nutcases and

would kill our babies!

[rainbow4321]

139. YOU ARE Fuckin' WRONG....

Things happen in EVERY state...we have no more problems than anywhere else. Look at Calif with the Peterson case, the Susan Smith/deaths on the East Coast. You can pick any city or state in the country and find things like this or worse. Look at Columbine, etc..
I KNOW there is sadness and anger over what this woman did but please don't lash out at everyone else in this state.
Would you want someone overseas to say "gosh, someone got killed in America last night, they must ALL be murderers".



Please keep the father and surviving kids in your thoughts..they will need it.

:grouphug:

[RedEarth]

140. WTF.it's not just Texas.. New Hampshire mom threatens to sacrifice child

.....sick people are all in each state.....Texas, New Hampshire or New York....................

Farmington mom threatens to sacrifice child at Rochester church
By NATE PARDUE

Democrat Staff Writer

ROCHESTER — A Farmington woman and her boyfriend were arrested and her three children put into state custody after she threatened to sacrifice at least one of the children inside St. Mary’s Church.

Nicole Mancini, 29, of 8 Peaceful Pines Circle, and her boyfriend, John Thurber, 35, of Four Rod Road in Rochester, were arrested Wednesday after they entered the Lowell Street church with her three children.

The incident occurred about 3 p.m. and was reported to police by church staff who encountered the group inside.

Police reported Mancini forced her way into the church, but Parish Secretary Donna Landolfi said she buzzed the group inside, as often happens when people come to the church during nonservice hours.

"Most of the time when people come in, they need a bag of food or are in need of assistance, especially during this time of year," said Landolfi, who has worked at the church for the past nine years.

Mancini and Thurber were both charged with endangering the welfare of a child. Thurber was also charged with possession of marijuana.

Police said Mancini stated she wanted to sacrifice all three children, but Landolfi said Mancini only wanted to sacrifice one of the children. The children are aged 9, 7, and 2, according to police.

The three children were removed from the couple’s care and put into custody of DCYF. No one was injured.

http://www.fosters.com/november_2004/11.12.04/news/ro_1112d.asp

[Goldeneye]

23. Is there a lot of crazy stuff happening since the election

or is it always like this?

the wisconsin rampage
fights at sporting events
this lady, cutting her babies arms off

...you can almost feel the desperation....

[BeHereNow]

28. THE FUCKING PHARMA CARTEL KILLS AGAIN!

I ASSURE you all, this woman was on anti depressants and
who knows what else.
I am SICK AND FUCKING TIRED of the cover up by the
powers that be about the dangers of these drugs.
Andrea Yates, who killed her children was ALSO a victim,
as were her children, of the pharma cartel cover-up.
I have been on a regime of NATURAL orthomolecular
treatment for depression for over ten years after I had an
adverse drug reaction to ONE dose of Zoloft.
These drugs are Russian Roulette. They CAN NOT predict
who will have an adverse reaction- therefore they should
be BANNED. I have worked VORACIOUSLY to expose this
abomination perpetuated on humanity for years; no one
listens and the FUCKING whore media is silent.
This woman had an adverse drug reaction.
NO ONE can convince me otherwise.
800 milligrams of NATURAL progesterone and 400
milligrams of SAMe along with Omega 3&6 would
have prevented this death- BUT... the pharma cartel
can't patent those substances, and so another child is dead.
By the way...Montsanto is ultimately to blame-
Know why? They have fucked with the food supply to
the point that it no longer contains the nutrients needed
for women to produce adequate levels of progesterone.
That is why there is such a HIGH incidence of depression
and PMS in women today.
Oh, and it is also directly linked to the mythological
ADHD syndrome...
No wonder Bush wants mandatory mental health
screening for everyone- look at the profits they
stand to reap.
rant off...
BHN

[TexasChick]

34. And, can you believe now that they want our children to be drugged up

with their murderous crappy drugs?!!!!

[BeHereNow]

42. Americans consume MORE anti-depressants than the entire world.

Our kids are already the most drugged up kids on the planet!
And for conditions that have NO medical tests to prove
they even exist.
FUCK THEM
FUCK THEM
FUCK THEM
It is genocide; pure and simple.
bhn

[American Tragedy]

160. Great. another one to tell me that depression is just a social construct

and I just need to think happy thoughts, and hopefully buy their overpriced 'natural' supplements!

No medical tests to prove it, that's true. Who gives a fuck? The symptoms exist whether you believe it or not, and the drugs I was prescribed alleviated them.

[jwirr]

46. You just made me think of something I

read lately but do not know where. Is it true that under bushies leadership in Texas they started a program where they identified persons with mental illness and then forced them to take drugs even when they did not want to? There was some kind of objection that indicated it was more for the benefit of the drug companies than for the patients? I know that he is planning to do a census of the whole country to identify persons with mental illness.

[BeHereNow]

58. Here ya go-

http://www.aapsonline.org/confiden/mhspaul.htm
The fuckers ponied it to an education appropriations bill
so that anyone who voted against it could be accused
of voting against education funding.
SLIMY fuckers.
snip (intro to article)
"The American tradition of parents deciding what is best for
their children is, yet again, under attack. The pharmaceutical
industry has convinced President Bush to support mandatory
mental-health screening for every child in America, including
preschool children, and the industry is now working to
convince Congress as well. But mandatory screening alone is
not what the pharmaceutical industry wants. The real payoff
for the drug companies is the forced drugging of children that
will result -- as we learned tragically with Ritalin -- even when
parents refuse."

May they all burn in hell.
bhn

[hinachan]

63. You can't ban drugs that help people!!!!!!

I'm bipolar, and I'm only alive today because of anti-depressant drugs. Like anything, anti-depressants can be used the right way or the wrong way.

The right way is for the patient to be seeing a psychiatrist who monitors his/her condition closely, and is either available or has someone on call to handle problems after hours. A drug that makes one person go off the deep end can be a lifesaver to someone else. Paxil not only saved my life, it gives me a life, every day of my life. Someone else, meanwhile, won't be able to tolerate it. That's why you need to have a doctor who explains all this to the patient and his/her family, and watches the patient closely until the effect of the drug is determined.

The wrong way to use these drugs is for some asswipe family practitioner to write scripts with no clue as to what the drugs will or won't do. I had a doc give me three refills of Xanax...before he retired without even notifying his own staff! Thank God I had enough experience to know that a person must gradually withdraw from Xanax to prevent the physical addition that can result, so I did that on my own. Otherwise, I'd have been left in a very bad predicament.

Banning meds like Paxil or Zoloft would only cause an increase in mental-illness related suicides and other destructive behavior, because for every person who has an adverse reaction, there are millions of people who have gotten their life back, thanks to these drugs. Sorry, BeHereNow, but I'm not going to go back to being suicidal, sleeping every third day, and winding up in ER once a month just because you won't hold your doctor accountable for not monitoring you more closely. There are also millions of people with fibromyalgia (which I also have), who should not be sentenced to more pain and agony, when meds like Paxil exist to take the edge off fibromyalgia-specific pain (narcotics and the like are not only ineffective, but for people like me with sensitive stomachs, narcotics are verboten).

I would also point out that there's a strong likelihood that you (like me) might be bipolar, because anti-depressants can trigger severe adverse reactions, i.e., a manic episode. My doctor has me on other mood stabilizers (Seroquel and Neurontin, to be precise), to make sure that the Paxil doesn't trigger any sort of manic response. Though I'm still unable to work outside the home (my form of bipolar disorder, with the mixed state, is the most difficult to control), I feel so much better now than I did before I started going to my current doctor. It took me 15 years of going to doctors before I was finally diagnosed and treated accordingly...15 years of pure hell.

Please, don't try to take this new lease on life away from people like me, based on one bad reaction you had. It's impractical to suggest that a drug should be banned because of bad reactions, because by that criteria, every drug in the world would be banned!

I implore you, and anyone else reading this, to put the blame for situations like this where it belongs: on the shoulders of doctors who prescribe pills left and right, not bothering to monitor their patients closely enough. Instead of prescribing the drug of the month, doctors need to start prescribing according to their patients' needs...and in the case of mood-altering drugs, family practitioners and other non-psychiatrists need to stop writing those scripts and start referring their patients to the docs who have the necessary knowledge and experience.

Screw tort reform...we need to be able to sue the bastards who go around playing doctor, without bothering to keep closer tabs on their patients!

Stories like yours break my heart, BeHereNow, but please try to understand how people like me have had to live, before these meds changed our lives. You had one reaction; I had 15 years' worth of reactions, because I didn't have the medication I needed. I've had ordinary drugs catapult me into mania--simple drugs like over the counter sinus meds, or the shots I was given in a dentist's chair, things that most people don't have to worry about. I've had drugs for my stomach trouble and irritable bowel syndrome cause me to become suicidal (Librax). If I'd had my current meds and a knowledgeable doctor back then, I wouldn't have had to go through all that. And please spare me any suggestions about "natural" remedies...I went through the naturopathic wringer, and the waiting rooms of all those quacks were filled with suckers like me who just got sicker and sicker while they got richer and richer.

Modern medicine is truly a miracle, but only in the hands of people trained to use it. The doctor you go to for flu shots is NOT the one who should be prescribing Effexor. And, yes, there are a lot of psychiatrists who are quacks, too...that's why you have to keep going and going till you find someone who will help.

That's also why we've got to stop Bush's tort reform bullshit, because that's just carte blanche to screw over patients indiscriminately.

[BeHereNow]

72. I too, have been "diagnosed" as xy&z.

For the past ten years, I have NOT taken ONE pharma cartel
drug. I have treated all of my conditions naturally with
orthomolecular compounds.
May I suggest you contact these people:
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com
The drugs you are taking WILL eventually backfire on you.
Trust me- I know.
BHN

[Pithlet]

84. Ah ha. Scientology.

This post of yours with that link clears things up a bit. Are you a Scientologist? If not, are you aware that the website you just linked is a front group for them? I think that should be made clear for anyone who isn't aware of that.

[BeHereNow]

89. No, I am not a Scientologist- I am a Christian.

I am well aware that the founder of AM is a Scientologist-
HOWEVER- the organization is NOT a front group for
ANYTHING. I have spoken for them at events, and I
have NEVER once even heard the word scientology among
the people who are involved. I have met Jews, agnostics,
Muslims and every sort of person imaginable through them.
We are united for ONE cause and one cause only:
To expose the murderous practices of the Pharma Cartel.
I don't give a damn what religion or philosophy a person
practices in that group, and neither does anyone else there.
You appear to have come to conclusions based on prejudice
and narrow minded assumptions.
FOR the record- as a CHRISTIAN, I recently participated
in a documentary produced by Scientologists on this topic.
Although I disagree with EVERYTHING about Scientology,
I DO agree with their efforts to expose the genocide being
perpetuated by Bush's pharma friend and will work the rest of
my life with ANY one who has the same purpose in mind.
I have met MANY famous doctors through this organization-
Pioneers in orthomolecular medicine- NOT a one was
a Scientologist, but all were intelligent enough to see the
point of unification in a mission.
Keep an open mind.
BHN

[Pithlet]

100. They won't mention the word "Scientology"

because they know it scares people off. But, it is indeed a front group for Scientology. Scientology has been anti-meds for a long time, and their reasons aren't based in anything scientific. Their tactics are to recruit more Scientoligists and spread the tenets of Scientology.

Your posts in this thread have not been based on anything scientific, either. Your insistence that meds only hurt and never help are harmful. Mentally ill people are helped by medicine. The lies and misinformation spread by Safe Harbor and the Sociologists harm hurt other people. You automatically jumped to the conclusion that what the woman did in this horrific story was because of medication, when you do not have any idea.

[BeHereNow]

104. No, you are wrong AGAIN

They don't mention it, because it is NOT the point of
the group.
It is a multi-cultural, religious, and otherwise group.
I have been involved with Safe Harbor for YEARS
and NEVER once has ANY one mentioned Scientology
or ANYTHING related to it.
the point of meds harming is that there is no way to predict
WHO will be harmed.
I know, I was.
THAT is my interest in their work.
Do you have ANY knowledge of the statistics?
bhn

[Pithlet]

111. They link to CCHR

Which is a front group for Scientology. It's right there when you click on "Patient Advocacy". It is also founded and headed by Dan Stratford, a high level Scientologist. It isn't that hard to put two and two together.

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

85. Look at the link provided by BeHereNow

in another post in this thread. That is a Scientology front group. Their mental health advice is dangerous.

[BeHereNow]

91. You have NO idea what you are talking about.

I DO- I have lived it.
What EXACTLY is your background on the subject?
Are you a pharma rep by any chance?
BHN

[Pithlet]

101. Nope

I'm not a "pharma" rep. Another conclusion jumped to by you.

[baba]

116. Mental health professional here

I do have knowledge and schooling on the subject, and I have to agree with the other posters here. People can benefit from appropriate use of psychiatric medications. As others have pointed out, they should be prescribed by a qualified practitioner, and those taking them should be closely monitored.

Pharmaceutical companies make lifesaving drugs for physical ailments, too. Health practitioners recommend people be screened for diabetes. Is this a conspiracy by the drug companies to sell more insulin? I doubt it.

[BeHereNow]

94. Have you EVER tried orthomolecular treatment?

I am alive today because of it.
If I had gone the pharma cartel route- I would be dead.
You see, I am one of those people, who unpredictably
and unreportedly, had an adverse drug reaction.
There is NO way to predict WHO will.
If you can tell me why any one should take a
prescription drug for a condition that can be treated
with orthomolecular compounds, I will give you
a hundred dollars.
Careful before you respond-
I have been successfully treated for ten years
with ORTHOMOLECULAR compounds, after spending
35 years of my life in HELL.
And I know MANY others who have too.
Unless you have researched the topic, I suggest you
lay off the easy dismissal of "scientology."
You have NO idea what you are talking about.
BHN

[barb162]

107. I have become aware of ADRs since some of my pets have

reacted horribly to vaccines. Two almost died. I notified the FDA about it as the damned vets wouldn't. Happened at least 3 times now. I know people who have had to go to the ER because of the damn flu shots, people broke out in severe hives and the ER doc was sick of seeing the same thing happen over and over again. ALso most people aren't aware of the long term effects of some drugs and the damn drug makers aren't about to tell us. I stay away from meds as much as possible.

[BeHereNow]

109. Take the cover up on the vaccines and multiply it 1000 times.

Then you will know how many senseless deaths, homicides and
suicides are connected to the cover up of what they are giving
humans.
BTW- There are orhtolmolecular treatments for animals too.
all six of mine are VACCINE FREE.
And healthy as they can be.
The heart worm vaccine is particularly dangerous to dogs... FYI.
The mast cell tumors that so many pets are getting are NOT
found in humans or animals who have not recieved vaccines.
The chemical pharma cartel is NOT our friend, nor a friend to the
animals we love.

BHN

[barb162]

114. I know, I never realized this till two years ago and I started

looking on ADR sites and was amazed at what I was finding. My one cat got this vaccine and within 2 hours went into acute heart failure...he died 8 months later at age 8. Rabies shots too, 3 weeks ago another of my cats got a severe reaction and I had to take him back to the vet for 3 more shots(!!!) to counteract the efffect of the rabies shot. NO more shots for my cats, NONE.

I know that many vets love hyper- vaccinating even though 60% of the vets schools nationwide are coming out against all these annual vaccines, especially if the pets are indoor only. The vets keep pushing the shots...look at all the money they make with those USELESS shots. And then when the pet gets sick, they make even more money treating the pet that they caused to get sick.

There are many senseless ands useless deaths and injuries from medications, wrong meds, improperly prescribed meds, LOUSY meds, etc.

If anyone dosn't believe me about this, go to the vet school sites yourelf; check Cornell U, U of ILLinois, U of Ca., U of PA etc., vet schools. It is highly unlikely you will be hearing how so many vaccines aren't necessary from your vet, the people who are making so much money off these dangerous vaccines.

[RobinA]

153. Of Course

your vaccine-free kids are healthy. That's because everybody else's kids have been vaccinated and a lot of the diseases that would have made your kids unhealthy, or dead, have been significantly reduced or irradicated. Want to talk to my uncle who had polio? Or me friend's mother who had polio?

[LeftyMom]

193. Polio was in decline prior to the vaccination

and the definition of what constituted a polio case was changed to make the vaccine look more effective than it was.

Would you care to discuss what it's like to take your child who went rigid and started shrieking for hours (and eventually days on end, without eating and punctuated by a few minutes of fitful sleep every few days) to the emergency room only to discover that the health care "professionals" there have never heard of the vaccine your kid got and can offer no better treatment than tylenol?

[BeHereNow]

221. I was referring to my 6 PETS! But let's talk abut my Daughter...

I don't have 6 kids, I have six pets who are vaccine free.
AFTER I learned that the death of my beloved Black Dog
was possible linked to the vaccines they pump our animals
full of.
HOWEVER- since you mentioned kids, I will tell you what
happened to my daughter.
My daughter had a reaction to her 3rd DPT vaccination.
Do you know what that entails?
SHE STOPPED BREATHING; if I had listened to the doctor
who gave her the vaccine, she would be DEAD today.
He kept telling me, as I called frantically every thirty minutes
as her tempature soared and her eyes went catatonic,
that she was just having a mild reaction, not to worry.
Well when her temperature hit 104 and stayed there,
I threw her in the car and drove to the emergency room.
They too, assured me not to worry, that the reaction
was "normal" and they would give her tylenol.
They stuck us in a room and I watched her temperature
climb to 105. She went limp, and stopped breathing.
I grabbed her and ran shrieking down the hall, "PLEASE,
SOMEBODY HELP ME, MY BABY STOPPED BREATHING..."
Well then 50 people came flying at us out of nowhere and
before I could blink they slammed her limp body
on a table in another room and shut the door on me.
I was hysterical and literally fell to the floor sobbing.
After what seemed like eternity, a nurse came out and
told me they had revived her, but that they wanted to do
some spinal thing to check to see if she was damaged
in some other way. Fortunately my pediatrician showed
and took over. He did not let them do the spinal thing.
It was then and only then that he admitted she had
suffered a very RARE reaction to the vaccination.
However, year later, I have learned that MANY infants
and toddlers suffer from DPT reactions. I advise EVERY
parent to learn more about them- and every other damn
they want to put into your child.
BHN

[baba]

117. AD/HD is hardly "mythical"

Get your facts straight. AD/HD is a very real disorder, with very real consequences.

[BeHereNow]

222. No you get your facts straight:

Especially if you call your self a professional.
I have had "professionals" tell me my kid was ADHD.
Turns out she was gifted and talented.
Now graduating high school with scholarship
offers from three of the top schools in the country.

There are NO medical tests to diagnose "ADHD."
Diagnosis is observational. I surely would not
want surgery on my brain based on someone's
observational diagnosis.

Oh, and it turns out, with further investigation
and orthomolecular bio-chemical testing, which does produce
medical test results, my daughter, besides being
incredibly intelligent and talented artistically,
had FOOD allergies. When we modified her diet
and supplemented for deficiencies, which are directly
related to neuro-transmitter activity in the brain, guess
what? The problematic aspects of her behavior
disappeared. The positive aspects of her differences
flourished and propelled her into an AMAZING set
of accomplishments. She has also been in an alternative
education system fro the past four years, for artist children-
and at the age of seventeen has earned her first ]
year of college credit. ADHD my ASS.

Those who stop questioning, stop learning.
For the sake of those you work with- I hope you
will keep asking. Start here, if you are willing to
admit that you may have some things to learn:
http://www.adhdfraud.com/
"Fred A. Baughman Jr., MD has
been an adult & child
neurologist, in private practice,
for 35 years. Making "disease"
(real diseases--epilepsy, brain
tumor, multiple sclerosis, etc.)
or "no disease" (emotional,
psychological, psychiatric)
diagnoses daily, he has
discovered and described real,
bona fide diseases.
It is this particular medical and
scientific background that has
led him to view the "epidemic"
of one particular
"disease"--Attention Deficit
Hyperactivity Disorder
(ADHD)--with increasing alarm.
Dr. Baughman describes this
himself. Referring to psychiatry,
he says:

"They made a list of the most
common symptoms of
emotional discomfiture of
children; those which bother
teachers and parents most,
and in a stroke that could not
be more devoid of science or
Hippocratic motive--termed
them a 'disease.' Twenty five
years of research, not
deserving of the term
'research.,' has failed to
validate ADD/ADHD as a
disease. Tragically--the
"epidemic" having grown from
500 thousand in 1985 to
between 5 and 7 million
today--this remains the state of
the 'science' of ADHD."

In addition to scientific articles
that have appeared in leading
national and international
medical journals, Dr.
Baughman has testified for
victimized parents and children
in ADHD/Ritalin legal cases,
writes for the print media and
appears on talk radio shows,
always making the point that
ADHD is fraudulent--a creation
of the psychiatric-pharmaceutical
cartel, without which they
would have nothing to
prescribe their dangerous,
addictive, Schedule II,
stimulants for--namely, Ritalin
(methylphenindate), Dexedrine
(dextro-amphetamine),
Adderall (mixed dextro- and
levo-amphetamine) and,
Gradumet, and Desoxyn (both
of which are methamphetamine, 'speed,'
'ice').

The entire country, including all
5-7 million with the ADHD
diagnosis today, have been
deceived and victimized;
deprived of their informed
consent rights and
drugged--for profit! It must be
stopped. Now! "

[Medium Baby Jesus]

223. Hopefully your children

will have more sense than you when they grow. Thank god Luddites like you are in the minority so the rest of us (rational people) can enjoy healthier lives.

[Psephos]

228. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts

I am ADD. It was tagged a disorder by those who cannot tolerate dreamers. I beg to differ. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Whether ADD is a detriment or a gift depends entirely upon context. If you are an accountant, it is surely a disorder. If you are a writer, it is God's own grace shining through you like the rays of the rising sun. ADD can render your life fraught with failure if you take the wrong job or hang out with the wrong people (especially, judgmental sorts). It can boost you to phenomenal success if you understand that it gives you abilities most people do not have, and then you run with those strengths. Just ask Leonardo da Vinci.

We need dreamers, we need rationalists, we need people who delight in rigorous detail work, we need empathizers, we even need a few whack jobs. In short we need all the different personalities and all the different ways of thinking that individual people possess. The great variety of mental attributes we see around us is actually a carefully edited selection made by evolution working over uncounted generations of our ancestors. Today's squirming kid bored to tears in the back of the classroom was yesterday's tribal dreamer serendipitously imagining where the antelope might be lurking, and then following her curiosity to find them, while the rest of the hungry tribe lamented the empty swishing of the veldt grass and blamed it all on angry gods.

Drugs? Yes, low-dose stimulants can help you temporarily simulate the cubicle-culture mentality, but the real answer is to skip the drugs, and find an environment in which your ADD traits are an asset, not a liability. ADD/ADHD kids shouldn't be in a one-size-fits-all school to start with. It's literally unnatural.

"Dreams do come true; without that possibility, nature would
not incite us to have them."
John Updike.

[patcox2]

136. deleted

nt

[Divine Discontent]

203. rant off? for some reason I sincerely DOUBT it....

I suggest simple time by the water drinking a nice champagne or favorite juice,
reading the good book and thinking about the joys in life that make your sad days not so bad. I cannot fully appreciate anyone else's pain and misery, but you're bringing too much anger to the discussion and I feel you could be doing so much better without it. I don't trust the cartel's either, but you sound hysterical.

God bless... O8)

[G_j]

35. and this is posted why?

glad hide-a-thread is back!

bye :hi:

[Schema Thing]

36. Maybe I'm overly cynical... But God will have played a role in this

I'm willing to bet.

People who believe in Bible-God stories, go crazy with those stories whispering in their ears, when and if they go crazy. And frankly, I'm not so sure those stories, and the belief in them, don't trigger the insanity sometimes.

[w4rma]

37. Over-generalizing. Imho, its more when those stories are warped. (nt)

[Schema Thing]

70. Uh. Read the book. The stories are WARPED as written.

The insanity begins to take hold the second you try to make that filth reconcile with love. It can't be done logically, so it has to be done with, well... "warping".

[BeHereNow]

38. Welcome to DU, but I disagree

The FUCKING Pharma Cartel is responsible
for this needless death. Peddling their god-damned
anti-depressants to an unsuspecting public.
All for MONEY- they KNOW the dangers associated
with their goods- they cover it up and they DON'T care.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/drownings/1360510
bhn

[Schema Thing]

71. Maybe. We'll see

Being from Texas, I'm especially tuned into the "bible crazy mother" syndrome.

[PurityOfEssence]

154. There IS a reference to statues of angels outside of their apartment

I was looking for it too, biased as I am, but there it is.

Lest we forget, though, Texas is a VERY religious state, so if many of those who go around killing their kids are Christian, it's not such an anomaly. The problem here is that ALL of those who do the killing seem to be fundies.

[Schema Thing]

168. She was humming a Jesus hymn when the police got there

I suspect there will be a strongly religous component to her insanity. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't make her any more or less insane, but when voices in my head tell me to kill MY kids, I'll go to a doctor; I won't believe that God is talking to me.

Bad beliefs kill sometimes. Oftentimes.

[PurityOfEssence]

178. Yep, and according to CNN, religious music was playing in the BG

when she made her 9-11 call.

Sure, maybe belief in the supernatural isn't the cause, but it helps.

If people didn't believe in these things, when they got odd impulses, they might be stopped by family and friends. When the fantasy world is more important than reality, things like this happen.

[VegasWolf]

185. Did she have a BUSH-CHENEY sticker in her front window?

[Nevernose]

44. Isn't Plano the super-rich, super-white, super-conservative part of Dallas

I haven't lived in Texas since I was a kid, but I remeber Plano as being a pretty white, wealthy, conservative type of place (my own family comes from Fort Worth and Oakcliff, and I'm much more familiar with the rest of East Texas).

[Horse with no Name]

45. Pretty much

Plano is very affluent..but also in the past few years has seen a very high rate of foreclosure when the dot com industries and IT industries went bust. I read somewhere it had the highest foreclosure and bankruptcy rate in Texas last year. Plano for many years also had the highest teen suicide rate in the nation--not sure if it still applies.

[Nevernose]

48. Didn't they also have the highest rate of teen heroin addiction?

Seems like they made a documentary about this somewhere, sometime.

Personally, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the whole thing were meth related.

[callous taoboy]

170. High adolescent drug abuse, yes.

Met a guy from Plano once, and he said the youth there were out of control. He told me a story about being so high from freon that he and a buddy stole from air conditioners that he beat this other guy to within an inch of his life. He went to a friend's house to get him to help go dump this guy somewhere and the guy said sure if he'd buy him a Wendy's cheeseburger.

I saw the same report about heroin abuse in Plano. Lot's of money and wayward youth.

[TexasChick]

50. It's very affluent and VERY expensive to live there! n/t

[Skittles]

51. I live in Plano

very plastic, phony conservative town

[barb162]

55. sounds like my town, but I am in IL

[Nevernose]

65. Wouldn't be Naperville, would it?

That would be the Illinois equivalent, I think.

[barb162]

67. yes, good guess. We also had a woman drown her 3 kids

here a few years ago. She is in jail; she had something called borderline personality disorder and she shouldn't be in jail IMO.

I can think of many other suburbs around Chicago that are just like my suburb (plastic, conservative). They are all over.

[Nevernose]

74. I have relatives that moved to Naperville

The Republicans they married go to Henry Hyde meetings, and that other asshole whose name I forget. I'm not too familiar with Illinois outside of Naperville/Aurora and downtown Chicago. Beautiful area, though, rapidly being destroyed by INSANE suburbaniztion.

[barb162]

83. Judy Biggert is Naperville's rep, Dennis Hastert is a little

farther west in Oswego, and Henry Hyde's district is about 15 miles farther north and east. I suspect you meant Hastert but all three are assholes. Yes the suburbs here basically go about 40 miles now in every direction from Lake Michigan. (

(I wonder how they handle Hyde's "moral" values since he was dissing Clinton like crazy during the impeachment and Hyde was seeing a married woman with children for about 10 years and he was married too.)

[Skittles]

66. I'm a native Illinoisan barb

yes INDEED

Rantoul

[barb162]

69. OH!!!!! WOW (I thought, gee, is this person psychic)

You miss IL? I was in Plano, Dallas, etc., once a few years ago. Most of my TX travel was all Houston area, land of the big hair. I always felt I should have worn a blonde wig when I went to Houston. Like Naperville, I should have an SUV attached to my rear end to fit in.

[Nevernose]

73. Do you know what the deal is with the big hair in Texas?

It's an Assembly of God thing. There's some throwaway line in the Old Testament that something like "a woman's hair is her crowning glory." Therefore, all the fundamentalist women down South wear big, poofy, and preferably blonde hair.

[barb162]

80. no, I am amazed at what I learn on this board, thanks, I

thought it was just a southern TX thing.

[Nevernose]

87. Houston is technically East Texas, although becoming more South Texas

Just like Illinois seems to be divided into Chicago, Chicago suburbs, and Southern Illinois (also known as "The Rest of the State"), Texas has it's own cultural delineations:

East Texas: the Old South, includes Dallas as a Western frontier.

West Texas: starts at Fort Worth, includes ranchers and oil land and things the land the rest of the state doesn't care too much about.

North Texas: The panhandle region (the top square part), which is only a distinct region to the people who live there. To the rest of us it's West Texas.

South Texas: Anywhere that hispanics live in large numbers. Basically everything in a SW triangle from the Austin/San Antonio area.

[barb162]

93. The way you divide up IL is the way I would and I have lived

here all my life. Although I often think in terms of (1) Chicago area and the (2)rest of the state. Politically there is (1)Chicago (2) rest of IL.

Oh man, I have to study this TX thing: N. TX really means W. Tx., etc.

[Skittles]

75. I was a GI brat, never spent much time in Illinois

one of the 3 high schools I went to was in Libertyville - plus my mum and brothers live in Vernon Hills / Mundelein. And I enlisted in the Air Force in Evanston! And yes, I was at one time known as a FIB to Wisconsinites. Lots of ties to Illinois!!! :D

[barb162]

88. I know all those places; those areas are very built up now too.

It will be solid housing all the way to the WI border soon and I am sure your family tells that to you.

IT IS VERY NICE TO MEET YOU!

[Skittles]

98. when I lived in Vernon Hills 30 years ago it was a very small town

and it was considered "the wrong side of the tracks" from snooty Libertyville - VH is huge now. Nice to meet you too Barb :hi:

[elehhhhna]

92. Hey I'm Thornton then Lincoln Park (ASAP). Now TX_DeLays' district

pray for me. Oy.

[barb162]

96. Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name....I read

a poster who lived in Delay's district who said the voting was comletely miscounted there, that Delay never really wins, it is all fraud and stolen. I hope your local prosecutor nails that roach already.

thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

[TexasChick]

54. It's very affluent, but I don't think this case seems to be about wealth

or class. The lady looked like her apartment complex didn't look that expensive. Of course, the excerpt before the news showed it briefly, so I could be wrong. I think there may have been something else to that woman's story and her behavior.

[Nevernose]

78. I was more curious than anything

I just wanted to know if Plano was the same as I remebered it. Ask me a quesion about Nacogdoches or Texarkana or Nacogdoches or Palestine or Freeport... (and explain my homesickness for the king of the Red States while you're at it:) ).

[TexasChick]

82. Hmmm, don't know if Plano is still the same way you remember it. I'm

originally from Longview, moved to Irving, TX about 10 years ago, and finally moved to McKinney just last year. Been looking for work in Plano because there ain't squat in McKinney! I have a doctor there in Plano that I went to, WHEN I HAD A JOB, thanks, Chimp! He even complained about it being a little expensive!

I love Texas, of course, I was born and raised, but I hate it for being Repuketard/Chimp country! Sort of like a love-hate relationship thing going on!! :0

[Nevernose]

90. You weren't born and raised there

One is "born" in Kansas. One is "raised" in New York. One "grows up" in California.

In Texas, one is indoctrinated. I wouldn't have it any other way.

The last time I was in Longview, I just found it depressing. The last of the small town East Texas feeling seemed to have been wiped out, replaced by strip-malls and chain-restaurants. Who was it that said "You can never go home again?"

[TexasChick]

105. "In Texas, one is indoctrinated. " LOL! okay, okay...Nevernose, you're

right!! LOL! I absolutely loathe Longview! I'm Christian and even I have dreams of blowing that city all to hell! My parents still live there and I have to go back to Longview on Thanksgiving, if you can imagine! That city is the most close-minded city I can think of! Now, that city HAS become fundie city, my aunt being a fundie "from hell"! God love her, but she just adores the Chimp and has pictures of him when she met him! I gag a maggot everytime I see them! If she starts ranting about him this time, I AM GOING TO HAVE TO OPEN MY MOUTH! It's hard being in Longview, but having to hear about the precious, warmongering, lying Chimp is even worse and I won't hold back to try to keep the peace! I won't stand for it!

[barb162]

108. gag a maggot; I intend to memorize this line (and I am LOL)

[PartyPooper]

49. Why do these things ALWAYS seem to happen in Texas or Florida?

Is there something they put in the water down there, or, what?

:shrug:

[elehhhhna]

53. Large, populous states, to be fair. Ain't got nothin' on Chicago.

[TexasChick]

57. Okay...PartyPooper, look at my post #30. LOL!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1014743#1014876

[PartyPooper]

60. Okay, I just did. Someone was thinking what I thought, too.

:crazy:

[villagechild]

59. dear goddess

beyond sad, no words. I need to say - there was once a moment when I thought I might hurt my children (not murder) ... and I called dept of social services. they told me they had no programs for parents UNLESS or UNTIL the damage or deed was already done. I called another parent and got some community support (my feelings were normal). But in so many counties across the US there is no real help for mental illness, or it is entirely inadequte, no budget. I hate to think this woman had reached out - and no one was there to take her call. My god this is so heart wrenching.

[madison2000]

56. This is untreated mental illness

Maybe post-partum depression, psychosis, whatever. You don't do this in your right mind, and sometimes people don't know they need help or know where to look for help or just give up because they are poor and have no insurance. With depression there is a point when you know you need help and a point when you give up hope and your thoughts become less and less rational.

The show ER is loosely based on Cook County Hospital in Chicago, and some of the stories are based on true stories. A few weeks ago there was a story in which a woman went off her ant-psychotic medication because she couldn't afford it. She imagined that her abusive ex-husband was at the door and dropped her children out of a window to protect them. She killed them.

This kind of thing REALLY DOES HAPPEN in America every day because we do not provide for people's physical and mental health needs. Its not an individual problem, its a sociopolitical problem. We have to fix this.

[fernsibal]

64. violently insane people

(most of them from the south, mind you) have existed since time immemorial.

[NVMojo]

61. this is fecked up, drowning the kids is one sick thing but hacking

a baby's arms off ...what psycho voices do that?

(type edit)

[barb162]

79. the woman who drowned her kids in IL said she was doing it

for their sake as their dad was remarrying and wouldn't give them time or love them anymore. SHe was in extreme psychotic depression. Then she tried killing herself I think but she didn't take enough pills to do the job...so then she called the cops very calmly. She was by all accounts a very loving mother but things fell apart when she divorced.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

102. this is what happens when we live in aculture

where women are shamed for not carrying a child they can't afford to raise to term

and it's mind-boggling to think that the freepers in our midst weant to take it further and rule that all women must remain pregnant by order of the state. expect more shit like this if that happens

[Sleepless In NY]

119. Adenoid_Hynkel think you're right

Sometimes it's not even the expense, but some women can't handle pregnancies emotionally. This is realy gruesome & sad.

[Tight_rope]

120. There are no words....just no words!

[rainbow4321]

135. Sad in Plano this morning...

I live in Plano..it is 10 miles north of Dallas. Yes, it has it's fair share of wealth and "niceness" but we have had a long string of domestic killings in the past year...a mom drowned her 2 kids in her bathtub a few months ago, a school teacher killed her daughter and husband and then herself recently <that didn't get alot of coverage probably cuz she was teacher of the year in our school district..>. I know that there are a couple other cases that I can't remember.
They played the 911 call on local news this morning...showed no emotion on the phone..none. Answered with simple "yeah's" and "no's".
Thank God the 2 older kids were at daycare or we would be hearing of three deaths.
CPS was involved with the family and now they are being questioned about what went wrong with their case. Not the first Texas CPS situation gone bad.
Plano is a well off city with a less than stellar rep, unfortunately...in the late 80's it was the "teen suicide capital" in the country because of several teen deaths within a matter of months. Then a few years ago we had a teen heroin problem..lots of kids being dropped off at the ER's near death by their panicky "friends" who didn't want to get busted. Latest teen problem is now steroid use amongst our high school athletes. One boy died recently.
Sad thing is, our school district just layed off the whole social worker department due to finance cuts..so now the group of people in the schools who looked after these and other problem kids is GONE--the district said that the counselors and the teachers will have to pick up the slack. Sure..they have time to do that..NOT..
Too many families with too much money that they are tossing at their kids in this city..not enough time for them so they try to make up for it. There is a reason why we in the medical field here refer to "The Plano clap" <hold arm straight out, then slap the middle of your arm with your other hand---what are you doing? Looking for a good vein>.

[SillyGoose]

130. There are no words.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

131. damning indictment of the Texas police/social service system

If a society isn't willing to pay taxes, then that society gets the quality of services it pays for.

In TX, social services are obviously lacking, and the children suffer for it.

[rainbow4321]

155. Texas CPS funding stats

http://www.cppp.org/cps_funding.pdf


In 2000, the most recent year for which national comparisons are available, the state spent $645 million on child protection, for an average of $110 per Texas child.

This is 60 percent lower than the U.S. average of $277 per child—low enough to rank Texas 48th nationally. The huge difference between Texas and the national average is not explained by a lower cost of doing business in Texas. To reach the national average in 2000, Texas would have had to spend an additional $984 million in state and federal funds.
Even to reach the Southern-states average ($186 per child) in 2000, Texas would have had to spend $447 million more on child protection. The effects of low spending are reflected throughout the CPS system. At the front end, workloads for Texas CPS staff are the highest in the nation—in fact, more than twice as high as the national average.
In fiscal 2003, our understaffed CPS removed 8,595 children from dangerous homes, out of a total population of 6 million children—less than one-quarter of 1 percent of Texas children.

[TexasBushwhacker]

174. I looked into being a caseworker

A college degree was required and the starting salary is less than $24K. Average caseload is over 60 new cases per month.

My family dealt with CPS when my brother tried to get custody of his then 8 year old daughter. Even though her mother didn't work and depended on the boyfriend of the month to support her, even though the current boyfriend had exposed himself to my niece and my niece hinted that he was molesting her also, even though their apartment reeked of animals (at least 3 dogs and 2 cats) and marijuana, the case worker said "it was pretty bad, but not bad enough" for her to remove my niece.

[rainbow4321]

179. Texas Adult Protective Services is bad, also..

Believe me, there are a hell of a lot of households flying under the radar of both CPS and APS..none of which you hear about til a tragedy hits the news:

Back when I did homecare nursing I had to deal with Texas APS alot.
For those in this thread who said a homecare nurse or other professional should have been doing home visits, consider the following:

No matter horrible the home situation was, if the adult homecare patient was at ALL coherent, APS would not take the pt out of the home...didn't matter if the family never bought them food, never cleaned the patient up, used their monthly SSI for people other then the patient...if the adult said they didn't want to leave, APS would not intervene.
Unfortunately, many of the family members were extremely talented at intimidating the patient into refusing to leave the home. It would just KILL me to continue to deal with these families.
You know it is a BAD environment when you would be doing the home safety checkoff list during the initial home care visit and when you ask "Do you have working smoke detectors?" and an elderly couple responded "Well, we had smoke detectors but our son came and stole them...he has a drug problem and probably needed to try and sell them or something". You learn real quick to not have anyone or anything between you and the DOOR during these homecare visits..and you go as early as you can in morning cuz the troublemakers in the neighborhood are still hungover and passed out somewhere.

[The Stranger]

132. Is this really depression, or is that just a term used to classify

what seems more like neurosis or psychosis? I have rarely, if ever, heard of depression leading to homicide.

[rainbow4321]

141. Dallas Morning News article

http://tinyurl.com/6jw49

A CPS investigator was sent to Ms. Schlosser's home Jan. 15 after she was seen running down the street, followed by her then-5-year-old daughter, who was on a bicycle. When police and CPS arrived at the scene, the child told them her mother had left her 6-day-old sister alone in the family's apartment. None of the children was injured.

The mother, who was despondent, appeared to be suffering from postpartum depression, said Marissa Gonzales, CPS spokeswoman.

Ms. Schlosser was taken to a Collin County hospital, where she was treated for a few days, Ms. Gonzales said. The children were released to their father, who told authorities she had been acting strangely since the birth of the third child Jan. 9.

Once Ms. Schlosser was released from the hospital, she agreed to seek counseling and see a psychiatrist, Ms. Gonzales said.

She kept all of her appointments and at one time had received a prescription for a psychotropic drug. But sometime between January and August, she was taken off the medication, Ms. Gonzales said.

[TexasBushwhacker]

149. How many follow up visits? What about the father?

CPS should have been on top of this. It's not the first time they've dropped the ball and it certainly won't be the last. CPS is terribly underfunded in Texas. They don't have enough caseworkers and the ones they have aren't paid enough.

Unfortunately, the one person who really could have done something was the father. Just like in the Yates case, he had to have known that his wife was doing well. Even though she's the baby's mother, she's still ill. Why would someone leave their child in the care of a mentally ill person?

[barb162]

158. Rusty Yaeger was an evil sonnavabitch as far as I was concerned

[TexasBushwhacker]

172. Yeah, there is something very creepy about him

He's just not "right". Even though Andrea's doctors had warned them after the PPD and suicide attempt she had after their 4th child, that Andrea shouldn't have any more children, they went ahead and had them anyway. Rusty said that Andrea seemed okay and wanted to get pregnant again, so they did. He's supposed to be the sane one in the relationship!!! Not to mention the stress of raising and home schooling the oldest three, plus a toddler and an infant to look after. That would have been stressful for a woman who was in good mental health.

Have you heard the latest? He's seeking a divorce because he wants to "get on with his life".

[barb162]

188. he was/is a sociopath I think. Back when they were living in a

school bus and she was taking care of those kids under those extreme conditions and she was going off her rocker, where the hell was he. Off in his nice clean office. Plus I think she willingly followed him whereever he wanted to go/do because the man was the boss and it was her job to please him. I think he wanted a lot of kids to show what a man he was. But he wasn't doing the slightest thing to make life easier for her. Having all those kids and living in a damn run down tiny school bus because his nutcase religious zealot friend suggested it to him??? When he had a good job? But his friend didn't have any kids when he was living in a school bus. He drove her nuts IMHO and she was totally incapable of telling him no because of the strict religious beliefs. How many times did this woman have to go "off" before this guy got the picture. He was selfishly clueless. I know that woman doesn't belong in jail; he should have been put in jail for mental cruelty. I think he just destroyed her personhood, her will to say no, her right to stand up for herself..a classic battered woman syndrome. Yes she rots in jail having to forever live with what she did. What she needs is a great shrink who can explain to her she went psychotic because of the incredible stress she was under and couldn't deal with. She probably never slept trying to be the perfect wife and mother.What a horrible story; so many women are struggling with this kind of stuff.

Oh and when he was doing the interviews in front of the house right when the cops were still there, his affect was too damn calm. There is definitely something wrong there with that guy.

[TexasBushwhacker]

216. They didn't even go to church!

The "minister" he followed was a freelance preacher who worked out of his bus (or RV). After the drownings, people were asking why didn't people from their church come to help her, but THEY HAD NO CHURCH. The family was totally isolated.

[noonwitch]

133. The mom's delusional, it's just a matter of figuring out the cause

Brain tumor, schizophrenia, drugs, religious cultism, etc. I'd guess one of the first two.

[Cocoa]

142. I'm against this

let it go on the record that Cocoa opposes cutting off your kid's arms.

[Endangered Specie]

145. Ok, are Texans trying to make me want capital punishment?

Cause this case sure does.

I really didnt need to read this today.

[Minstrel Boy]

146. This is why I want my "Hide Thread" option back.

I'm not reading this fucked-up story, and I don't even want to see the headline on the LBN page.

[yellowcanine]

147. Has Newt Gingrich "weighed in" on the possible reasons for this yet?

Could gay and lesbian marriages be at fault?

[American Tragedy]

161. You can always rely on Fox News to haul him out

to offer his irrelevant opinion on everything.

[prodigal_green]

151. There is a program in NYC

(I can't find a link, but will post if I do)

Where parents can drop off their kids 24/7 overnight and up to two or three days I think. No questions asked. The idea is to help prevent child abuse when the pressure gets too great.

[Redleg]

164. Now you understand why I specialized in work-related behavior

instead of this kind of stuff. You clinical psych folks can have it.

[AlienGirl]

231. I'm going into forensic psych

And this disturbs even me...

Tucker

[Pepper32]

169. WTH? Poor baby... I am speechless... how could she?

:(

[lexicon089]

234. ________It was her "CHOICE"

NOW I know how the right thinks of liberals... Make no mistake about it, this is how they frame every single one of us here at DU. THAT is why we cannot reason with them.

They think we have a mental disorder, and that each one of us has done or would do what that disgusting individual did.

The right would probably be suprised to know that we think what happened to that innocent baby is disgusting, infact they would expect us to say "She shouldn't recieve any punishment, because it was her choice since she could no longer afford the baby"


To them, there is no difference between cutting off your newborn's arms and having an abortion. FYI.

[Catchawave]

173. I'm still pissed off Randy Yates is FREE....

..so these kinda stories don't surprise or shock me anymore.

[HoosierClarkie]

175. Amen!

People need to wake up and know the warning signs. If they see things and do nothing they should be held accountable too. I have a family member with a mental illness and it has been a long road, but with knowledge there is power. Mentally ill people should be held accountable for getting treatment well before something like this happens, but the problem is family members do not do their part in educating themselves. Society does not do it's part. Then, you have stories like this that come out and spread more ignorance that mentally ill people are all dangerous and should be locked up. Ignorance just pisses me off!

[shesemsmom]

180. AND AMEN!!!! n/t

[Comadreja]

186. I'll Bet

This woman is extremely religious.

[barb162]

190. probably but not necessarily; the woman in my city who drowned

her 3 kids wasn't religious as I recall. SHe thought her kids would be better off as she was convinced her divorced husband wouldn't be coming around anymore to see them as he was remarrying (and probably starting another family).

There was another woman recently who was in post partum depression and she threw herself out of a high rise window. She felt she couldn't be a good enough mother.

[hickman1937]

187. this goes back to Teflon Ron.

In the 90's we had John Engler in Michigan who gutted Social services, because Michigan Isn't In The Business Of Breaking Up Families. It's cheaper to give the the perp some counseling, and put the kid back with the abuser. That little girl was screwed from the beginning. I don't know about Texas, but the average Social worker in Michigan has about 300 cases a month. Or maybe that was a week. I need to do some research.

[genieroze]

189. I just saw CNN

and they played the 911 call and she had religious music playing in the background. That's what the reporter said it was. It was a little hard to hear, did anyone catch the 911 call?

[barb162]

192. "religious music playing " sick, sick, sick

[rainbow4321]

194. Mother planned "sacrifice" of baby

http://tinyurl.com/64w39


The night before a Plano homemaker killed her 10-month-old daughter, she told her husband she wanted to "give her child to God," court documents say.

The following morning, records show, Dena Schlosser called her husband, John, at work and told him she had cut off the arms of their youngest daughter, Margaret Elizabeth.

Child Protective Services took custody of the couple's other daughters, ages 6 and 9, when their mother was charged with capital murder Monday.

The agency asked a judge Tuesday to terminate the parental rights of both parents, stating that John Schlosser did not protect Margaret from his wife.

[barb162]

205. geez, it is interesting the way these people go over the edge. I

want to know why she just didn't give the kid a bunch of sleeping pills or something that at least wouldn't cause horrible pain.

[Schema Thing]

206. Because they didn't use sleeping pills in the bible.

Bad beliefs kill.

[barb162]

208. oh, well she could have stabbed the kid in the heart first, at least

that would have been a lot faster, perhaps instantaneous? It just keep going through my mind that the poor kid was screaming in terrible pain for probably several minutes.

[Pert_UK]

207. You're trying to rationalise the irrational.....

"Why didn't she kill the child painlessly?"

IMHO a stupid question......Killing the child was an irrational, insane, disturbed thing to do - asking why she didn't do it in a more humane way misses the point by such a long way that I'm staggered you don't see it.

[barb162]

211. of course I see the incredible insanity of the entire episode and

I think it is stupid of you to declare I do not. Still, if she wants to offer her kid to God, even in the bible sacrifices were usually done by slitting an animal's throat. They didn't chop the poor innocent animals apart limb by limb and let them bleed to death in excruciating pain. Of course the act is brutal, senseless, pyschotic, etc.! So why the hell did she do it THAT particular way. Something drove her to do it THAT way over another way.

[Pert_UK]

229. Maybe I was being a little unfair....

I just don't think it makes much sense to ask the question as to why she didn't kill her child in a more humane manner. Asking "Why did she do it this way?" has a different emphasis to, "Why didn't she choose a more painless way of killing her child?". I don't think that there was a lot of choice involved here.

Incidentally, I suspect you could probably dig out something from the Bible that fits this incident - off hand, I recall a passage about "If they right hand offends thee, cut it off and cast it aside" or similar.

Apologies for being harsh on you...I think that I was so shocked by the whole story that I just had a knee-jerk reaction in the wrong direction.

[jojo54]

195. This is so very sad

I have 2 older daughters, a 3 yr old grandson and an 11 mth old granddaughter. I couldn't imagine myself living if something happened to any of them. And just think ladies, 50 years ago, PMS and post-partum depression was "all in our heads".

[genieroze]

210. Don't you know

that the righties say you should pray when you have cramps. I wonder if that psycho pharmacy that won't give you birth control sells Midol. God says women should suffer because of what Eve did.

[jagasian]

215. Hymn that was playing in the background of 911 call, when mom confessed.

He touched me, O he touched me,
And O the joy that floods my soul!
Something happened, and now I know,
He touched me and made me whole.

Shackled By a Heavy burden,
'Neath a load of guilt and shame,
Then the hand of Jesus touched me,
And now I am no longer the same.

He touched me, O he touched me,
And O the joy that floods my soul!
Something happened, and now I know,
He touched me and made me whole.

Since I met this Blessed Savior,
Since he cleansed and made me whole,
I will never cease to Praise him;
I'll shout it while eternity rolls.

He touched me, O he touched me,
And O the joy that floods my soul!
Something happened, and now I know,
He touched me and made me whole.

[genieroze]

218. Good L,ord

:puke:

[VegasWolf]

219. Here's an applicable bible qoute -

EXD 13:15

"And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem."

Maybe she was trying to open the Matrix. I really don't
understand religious people.

[superconnected]

220. sick, and sad. It bothers me too much

I don't think religon or abortion is the cause. The mother was insane. I've written on this site before about my boss - a rep, who is also insane and if he heard about this would likely condone it for some sick reason I can't guess. He always does, and in the name of "God". But it isn't really God. It's that he is insane and won't get locked up until he hurts someone. There are ALOT of these people out there. Go to Free Repulic and listen to what they are saying. I can't say I don't want this woman to pay, but I do recognize she has an illness.

[rainbow4321]

224. The family's church: "Water of Life Church"

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D86IITBO0.html

Davidson, who started Water of Life Church in 1980, said he believes God uses the courts to work His will. He said he told Schlosser that although the Bible instructs not to kill, God also forgives.

"God will forgive every sin and he will forgive this woman," Davidson said. "My basic thing will be simply to pray that Dena will be brought to repentance to God and acknowledge her sin and then she'll be free."

<snip>

"But a friend of Schlosser's mother, Connie Macaulay, told The AP that Macaulay opposed her daughter's involvement in Davidson's church, and feared her grandchildren were being exposed to a cult-like environment.

[Ilsa]

225. Yeah, "...the church services generally

lasted under two hours," said the article. Good grief. Sounds close to cultish to me.

[lexicon089]

235. You would be suprised to know-

Most church services were i'm from last all Sunday long, or at least it is an all day event... either from the morning until 12 when they break for lunch at somebody's house, then again from 1 until 7 at least, sometimes later.

If they don't go to the later service it will last in some form at somebody elses house until dark.

[genieroze]

236. Brainwashing at it's finest

[regnaD kciN]

230. I don't know (or want to know) the details of this story, but...

...this is the sort of thing that makes me wish there was a way to resign from the "human" race.

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

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