'Ukraine stands on the brink of civil war' (November 24, 2004)

[IndianaGreen]

This is the second straight day of protests against the presumptive winner of the election, Russian-backed Viktor Yanukovich, who is seen as Putin's man in Kiev.

'Ukraine stands on the brink of civil war'

Protesters march on parliament to claim victory for Yushchenko as presidential election crisis deepens

Nick Paton Walsh in Kiev
Wednesday November 24, 2004
The Guardian

After two days of protests that brought Kiev to a standstill, Ukraine opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko declared yesterday that he had won Sunday's presidential run-off vote, and symbolically took the presidential oath before fewer than half of the national assembly's MPs.

Hours later, tens of thousands of protesters marched on the parliament buildings.

"We are going to go to the presidential administration in a peaceful way, without breaking anything," said Yulia Tymoshenko, who heads a faction in parliament backing Mr Yushchenko.

"Either they will give up their power, or we will take it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1358078,00.html

[Laelth]

1. Ukraine stands on the brink of civil war?

I think we should be too!

eom

-Laelth

[knowbody0]

2. let's take notes

and follow their lead

[Gman]

3. I had to smile today at the pic on fhe front page of the NYT

that had 10's of thousands at some square in the Ukraine. They were vowing not to leave until the election fraud in that election was resolved and the opposition candidate declared the winner.

I then took a deep breath and walked away sadder for our country that we can't do as much if not more.

[rockymountaindem]

4. For those of you who think civil war is the answer here...

let me disavow you of that right now. Civil war would be about the dumbest thing we could do at this juncture. The power of modern weaponry would leave our country in ruins in a way politicians never could.

Advocacy, arguing and striving for fair voting and accountability is one thing, but we should maintain the peace above all.

[villager]

5. general strikes, boycotts, and widespread civil disobedience...

...should be our opening salvos. A la India.

[MatrixEscape]

8. Depends ...

on just how much of a Theocracy you are willing to take then, ey?

rEvolution of some sorts, in a Ghadi/King sense is looking like the only way to counter the gradual Radical Right-wing Religious takeover we are seeing. They don't intend to back off or back down, it seems.

[Fleurs du Mal]

12. "we should maintain the peace above all"

Though I don't believe the US is anywhere near a civil war-like state we are quickly approaching an era where mass civil disobedience might be in order. If it really came down to it though would you prefer a "peaceful," Christian tyranny to the alternatives? I can't say I would.

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

16. Civil war might really not be your best choice

since it will "legitimize" further despotic measures.

[daleo]

6. Not one pundit has addressed the contradiction between U.S. and Ukraine

Why are the very things in the Ukraine that have been used as evidence of fraud, been ignored or debunked in the U.S. election?:

- large exit poll vs vote count discrepancy.
- anomalously high voting rates in some areas (95%+) that went preponderantly for the government.
- suppression and intimidation of voters by government dirty tricks.

I have yet to see anyone in the media point out the similarities, let alone explain them away.

[NJCher]

7. another one of those split-screen moments

Like with OJ.

Trouble is, the other side of the screen is completely blank.

What bizarre hypocrisy.


Cher

[SoCalDem]

22. I'm no pundit, but I "edited" the CNN story and sent it back to them

No one has replied yet..:(
SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-22-04 01:02 AM
Original message
"Exit polls show KERRY with lead"... If CNN appreciated irony

Edited on Mon Nov-22-04 01:06 AM by SoCalDem
This is the story they ran about RUSSIA's election.. I used caps to "tweak it".. switched names and took a little liberty with places....The parallels are stunning... yet CNN doesn't get it..

Sent it to Wolfie & Judy, but I doubt they will see the irony or pathos of it all..

asd you read this article, think back to how our own election was (NOT) covered with as much attention to detail or garvity.. Everything that was WRONG here, was a glitch..or conspiracy, that they all just laughed and giggled about

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/21/ukraine.ap/i...



MY VERSION

No clear win yet in USA poll
Exit polls show KERRY with lead
Sunday, November 21, 2004
Posted: 7:57 PM EST (0057 GMT)


Supporters of JOHN KERRY celebrate exit polls that show him in the lead


ANYWHERE, USA (AP) -- UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Central Election Commission said early Monday that PRESIDENT GEORGE W BUSH had collected 6 percent more votes in the country's presidential race than JOHN KERRY, while exit polls put the opposition challenger ahead.

The commission said that with 26 percent of precincts counted following Sunday's election, BUSH had 51 percent of the vote, compared to KERRY's 45 percent.

No geographic breakdown was given to indicate where the votes had been counted so far in the bitterly contested election, which is seen as determining whether USA tilts toward the LIBERAL or CONSERVATIVE AGENDA.

One exit poll, conducted by anonymous questionnaires under a program funded by several Western governments, said the LIBERAL-leaning reformer KERRY had won with 54 percent of the vote and BUSH trailed with 43 percent.

Another poll put KERRY ahead by only 49.4 to 45.9 percent, the {INSERT POLL-TAKER'S NAME HERE} news agency reported.

The confusing picture increased tension that had been building in anticipation of Sunday's major opposition demonstration (HAHAHA)

The commission announced its initial results after a crowd of about 5,000 KERRY supporters, who alleged election officials would falsify the results, had dispersed amid opposition calls for them to return at 9 a.m. (0700 GMT) Monday. Some supporters pledged to spend the wintry night in tent campS set up IN OHIO AND FLORIDA.

KERRY'S supporters say election officials intend to falsify the results, and his followers gathered for a demonstration they dubbed a "parallel vote count." Groups of elderly BLACK PEOPLE, businessmen and students huddled in the cold, many wearing scarves or armbands in KERRY'S SUPPORT.

KERRY foes alleged the rally was part of an effort to foment civil unrest with the aim of seizing power. The Central Elections Commission office was heavily guarded by riot police and several armored vehicles were deployed on its territory. Ambulances were parked near the square.

BUSH spokesman KARL ROVE criticized the exit poll results, calling them "incorrect, unscientific and even comical."

SNIP.....

"The difference between KERRY and BUSH displayed in exit polls shows that even if authorities attempt to rig the vote they will not be able to falsify all of it," KERRY'S campaign manager told 5,000 people gathered .

Some 77.31 percent of registered voters turned out to vote. The figure was based on one-third of the country's 225 election districts.

Both camps complained of voting problems. Adding to the tension, a policeman guarding a polling station overnight was found dead of a head injury apparently inflicted by intruders, news reports said.(MAY ACTUALLY HAPPEN IF ELECTIONS DON'T STOP GETTING STOLEN FROM THE PEOPLE)

In the OHIO, about 40 people forced their way into a voting station and smashed everything. Members of the election committee, who were inside at the time, managed to protect the ballot box but were injured in the melee.

KERRY campaign complained that BUSH supporters were given absentee ballots and bused out of their native regions and back again so they could vote twice. They also complained of observers being barred from some polling stations and said attackers injured several people at KERRY headquarters in the city of CLEVELAND.{THIS COULD HAPPEN AS WELL, DUE TO YOUR INATTENTION TO REAL VOTING ISSUES IN AMERICA}

BUSH'S side, meanwhile, cited voter list problems.

Absentee ballots were expected to figure significantly in the contest.

The election came after months of opposition allegations of official interference, LIES, AND CHARACTER ASSASSINATION and complaints of intimidation OF PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO REGISTER, BUT HAD THEIR APPLICATIONS DISCARDED...AND INTIMIDATION OF MINORITY-RACE VOTERS IN SEVERAL STATES.

SNIP....

KERRY'S critics frequently portray him as a MASSACHUSETTS LIBERAL who could be unduly influenced by his INTELLECT,WELL-TRAVELED FOREIGN POLICY OUTLOOK,HIS ABILITY TO ACTUALLY RESEARCH AND THINK ABOUT DIFFICULT ISSUES, AND HIS KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THINGS ARE NOT BLACK/WHITE..GOOD/EVIL . He says he wants to push the country to greater integration with Western Europe and has suggested seeking GREATER CONTACTS WITH THE UN AND NATO

BUSH HAS been strongly praised by FOX NEWS, MSNBC,CNN,ABC, NBC,RUSH LIMBAUGH, NEIL BOORTZ,BILL O'REILLY,AND MOST OTHER MEDIA OUTLETS. THE OVERT SUPPORT HAS COME IN THE GUISE OF "NOT" REPORTING IMPORTANT MISTAKES THAT HE HAS MADE...AND BY "NEGATING" ANY POSITIVE STORIES ABOUT HIS OPPONENT, JOHN KERRY.

[daleo]

23. That's good

It will be ignored of course, but it points out the glaring contradictions.

[Niche]

9. Washington 1/20...

[Emillereid]

10. Where's our OUTRAGE!

Why Oh why did Kerry desert us when we most needed a leader.

It is so painful to watch our great republic die, not with a BANG, not even a whimper -- just excruciating SILENCE!

[NuttyFluffers]

11. that last lins is the most agonizing thing i've read in ages

because it rings too true.

"It is so painful to watch our great republic die, not with a BANG, not even a whimper -- just excruciating SILENCE!"

it's as if it was a mistake and nobody wants to remember it anymore. it hurts more than anything else, the deafening silence, as if we really are the cesspool of apathy and couldn't care less what treasure we held in our hands. it hurts. it hurts very much.

[Poll_Blind]

15. There is just the silence, so quiet it was as though there never...

...was a sound to begin with. I know, it's killing me too. It's like...all that we worked for was just removed, edited out. It still bothers me greatly.

PB

[BiggJawn]

14. Hush! I can't hear the Teee-Veee!

There's your answer.

Same election scenarios, the Ukrainians are ready to burn Kiev to the ground, we Murkan Sheeple are getting our Wal-Mart Xmas shopping lists in order....

Maybe Shrub will offer to let Pooty-Poot have "Survivor" to dull the masses down?

[Paula Sims]

19. I agree with BiggJawn

What do the Ukrainians have to loose? A comfortable way of life? Not to many of them who, IF they get their paychecks, have it spent on "luxuries" such as bread and butter (slight exaggeration but not much). How many 'Murkin Sheeple are willing to get up at 5am Friday morning for a $50 VCR at WalMart but don't want to be bothered with the trivial details of their civil rights and their way of life going down-hill? Unfortunately, for many people, that is the only way that they will get a VCR.

Ukrainians are fed up with the corruption, a President who quotes Lenin and Stalin as a way of life, a press that is terrified of speaking out for fear of being decapitated. Ukrainians are willing to die. They know it might come to that and they are ready. They have been struggling for years and know now that it's possible to win.

What is AMAZING about this protest is that they are coming together as Ukrainians. Not Ukrainian Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholics, Ukrainian left, or Ukrainian right. They are Ukrainian. United. For those who know the history of the country and the political struggles, THAT is the amazing part. It's equivalent to ALL factions of Muslims coming together for one cause. Under one leader.

Simply put, enough is enough. I never thought, I, as an American of Ukrainian descent, would to my ancestral homeland for direction. but I am. As I said, I am willing to continue the good fight.

[newyawker99]

25. Hi Paula Sims!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[KingChicken]

13. Modern Civil War is not necessarily violent, this is the information age!

I think when we talk of Civil War we are talking about infowar or intellectual war. Technology, communication, and information is much more powerful than brute force, that’s the old way of getting things done.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

17. Does anyone know what types of voting equipment were used in the Ukraine?

I'm having trouble finding anything about this.

Did find this miscellany:

IFES BUYERS'S GUIDE TO ELECTION SUPPLIERS

American Manufacturers Export Group

American Manufacturers Export Group (AMEG) "has provided procurement, logistics and related technical assistance in over 90 developing countries. AMEG will handle all procurement transactions, irrespective of the nature of the commodities, size of the transaction or the value of individual items. We act exclusively and receive payment for services from our client. We will not accept fees, commissions, discounts or other forms of payment from vendors."<1>

Election Experience: Please visit our website at www.ameginc.com. can't get on
Affiliates: We have affiliates in Egypt, Nairobi, Hong Kong, South Africa, Thailand, Pakistan, Nicaragua, and Ukraine, and a branch office in Washington, DC.
Sales Contact: Dewey Thomas, Contracts and Administrator
Technical Contact: Brandon Blackwelder, V. P. Operations

Contact
722 Pin Oak Road, Suite 206
Katy, TEXAS 77494
U.S.A.
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
[e-mail]
Web: http://www.ameginc.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reconstruction of Iraq contractors and subcontractors include the following:
American Manufacturers Export Group (AMEG)

Expect also a flourishing business in war profiteering consultancies to grease the way for obtaining business opportunities in Iraq, for instance, (Bush's) New Bridge Strategies and (Chalabi's) Iraqi International Law Group

A team of investigative reporters in Iraq have found a pattern of waste, fraud and abuse among U.S. companies receiving multi-million-dollar reconstruction contracts in the country, including massive over-charges for projects; shoddy work or a failure to complete tasks; and ignoring local experts who contend they could do the job better and cheaper. The in-depth report by CorpWatch's Pratap Chatterjee and Focus on the Global South's Herbert Docena, published in the latest issue of Southern Exposure magazine, is an on-the-ground account of how U.S. taxpayer money given to Bechtel, Halliburton and other companies is being spent. <1>

~~~~~
Googling this company's name, and related names leads right back into more nasty stuff, eg: a company called "Codeinc" whose slogan is "Delivering the vote and everything in between" www.codeinc.com

Gotta quit or I'll be googling myself nuts over all the odd links that are turning up

[PATRICK]

18. Making democracy an untold joke

Think. ALL the world is succumbing meekly to these machines and the will of interested hegemons, shifting far away from whatever the people need or want and especially away from real civil liberties.

It is as if the grand scheme is to have a semblance of democracy, an empty show, to control the world for all the things that have to be done for order and progress.

Unfortunately this "for our own good" bears the signatory results of every scummy evil known to man, led by renegade idiots and fanatics, dinosaur economics and defeatist silencers of obvious things that could other wise be done to alleviate death suffering and Yes, extinction.

The sham of the sham of "controlling" the vote is that the results are nearly 100% evil by thugs for thugs and with no future but misery and peril. Yet capitalism is hunky dory. Clinton assures us that globalization is by and large beneficial though he himself cannot shake off the bite of snake venom that destroyed our own nation.

We are in a city about to be bombed. The skies are clear, apprehensions kept to ourselves. We go about our business with no access to affecting what is to come. Silently. Then comes a time when we die. Then the silence is perfect.

Is the human race too dumb to survive? The evil are a pitiful minority, their allies deluded and dumber than bricks. What is alarming is the normal, good people who cannot puzzle out a simple fact, a simple swindle, a simple duty, and who'd rather die later than raise an unseemly fuss now.

[blindpig]

20. we are shamed

whats happening today in Ukraine is what should have happened here four years ago. They got away with it then so it was a breeze to do it again. We are a lazy, greedy, complacent people and shall pay the price.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Perhaps Ukrainians value freedom more than we do

Perhaps we have become complacent as our freedoms have been steadily chipped away, a process that began long before there was a PATRIOT Act.

Perhaps it is because we are more interested in banal things such as Kobe, Peterson, Jacko, Janet Jackson, etc.

[genieroze]

21. I wish we had the balls that they do

We are wimps

[kostya]

24. So many great comments here. Kick!

:kick:

[Chimpanzee]

26. The little mole might request help from the monkey

[leftofthedial]

28. how unruly of them

when our current dictator seized power and ceremoniously took the oat of office, we just yawned, rolled over and changed channels like civilized people.