Boy's religious absences stir flap at Indiana school

[Rose Siding]

A mother said a Lowell, Ind., school has threatened to expel her 6th-grade son if he misses any more days, even if he is absent for religious reasons.

Ruth Scheidt said Lowell Middle School officials had her 12-year-old son sign a letter last month stating he understood that he could be expelled if he missed another day of school for any reason before the end of the semester in January.

The family had just returned from an out-of-state, eight-day religious observance called the Feast of Tabernacles, celebrated by the United Church of God.

Scheidt said she told the Tri-Creek School Corporation well in advance of taking her son to the observance and presented a letter from the church explaining the holy days.

Alice Neal, superintendent of the school district south of Gary, said that the issue was a misunderstanding and that she told Scheidt the policy on excused absences, five of which are allowed per semester.

Excuses include illness with a doctor's note, a death in the immediate family, quarantine or court appearance. Neal said the schools accept one day off per semester for religious observance, and the family had used that already.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0411260181nov26,1,7753683.story?coll=chi-news-hed

[VivaKerry]

1. I can see saying he has to stay back a grade.....

Like if any other kid missed X days of school, they couldn't legitimately pass him to the next grade.

But expulsion?

[Buzz Clik]

9. I live in Indiana...

and this is completely consistent with the rules of attendance. Bouncing the kid from school will result in no credit for the year, and it amounts to the same thing as holding the kid back.

[Warpy]

2. Why don't we just throw out all those rigid rules

and the bureaucratic pinheads who feel compelled to enforce them? Zero tolerance rules are for administrators with zero intelligence and zero judgment.

Good gawd, if the kid is up to date with his schoolwork, what cause does anyone have to complain about absences? Sitting in a stuffy classroom doesn't make you smart. Doing the work DOES.

I have a feeling there's another kid who is going to be homeschooled from now on.

[Tempest]

6. Up to date with his schoolwork?

There is nothing in the article which says anything about his being up to date with his schoolwork.

He could be flunking out for all you know.

[Warpy]

8. So? If he's flunking, let him flunk

Throwing the kid out of school because he missed 8 days of sitting in a classroom is just plain stupid. The judgment call should be on whether or not he's done the work.

I spent a lot of my school years traveling. I always took the school books with me and I always did the work. There were no rigid rules about attendance, only that the excuses should be parental ones.

This is just more zero tolerance bullshit, IMO.

[Rose Siding]

10. In-class lessons, discussions and participation can't be made up

and it is inequitable to expect some students to fulfill some requirements that aren't required of others.

[LeighAnn]

30. What about the requirements of the Law of God?

People who celebrate the Old Testament Holy Days are under biblical obligation to not go to work or buy anything on those days. The government should not stand in the way of this. Otherwise, school should be in session on christmas day.

[Zhade]

42. Christmas day is irrelevant, since there is a 2-week holiday period.

That little rule called "separation of church and state" requires that the rules of any particular gods apply OUTSIDE the schoolhouse walls.

If the needs of the god in question supercede societal law, then the parent/guardian can choose to remove their charge from the public, taxpayer-funded school.

I do NOT want MY taxes paying for special breaks for religious kids. The non-religious kids are worth just as much as the religious ones, and all should be held to the same standard if enrolled in a public institution.

No special exemptions for religion if you want your kids in public school.

[PassingFair]

46. Okey Dokey!

Just send the kid in with a note from gawd and it'll be excused....

[Tempest]

12. So the existing policy should be changed for this one student?

>>Throwing the kid out of school because he missed 8 days of sitting in a classroom is just plain stupid.<<

It may be stupid, but it is an existing policy. One all students are aware of and expected to follow.

If the parents objected to it, they should have attempted to change it before it became a problem.


>>There were no rigid rules about attendance, only that the excuses should be parental ones.<<

But there are rigid rules in this case.


The bottom line is that you either have rules which apply to everyone, or you have no rules at all.

You don't go around changing the rules just for a few who can't abide by them. Unless you want to go back to a Feudal system of government.

There is a rule in place, and the school is DOING THEIR JOB by enforcing it.

[1monster]

28. The rule is way over the top, but there is a way around it. I know a

student who had serious medical problems which requied that she be out of school for several weeks. Her mother withdrew her from school for the period that she needed to recover. (I believe that she homeschooled her for those weeks and was thus able to do this.) Then when she was able to go back to school, she reregistered her.

I took a day or two off from school when I was in elementary school for religious instruction. Since the teacher was informed ahead of time, and since I was attending another school, I was not counted absent.... Of course, that was forty years ago. The more "religious" we get as a nation, the less religious freedom we seem to have.

[timtom]

35. Wait a minute!

Didn't we just have a discussion here at DU about a school that required that the entire school not be allowed to bring peanuts (and an arm's length list of other comestibles) because ONE STUDENT has a deadly allergy to these things. They couldn't be in lunchboxes, they couldn't even be on students' breaths.

I don't have the link, but it was within the last 90 days, I'm sure.

The school made up rules that impacted 99% of the student body for one student.

[Trillo]

36. exactly right!

The judgment call should be on whether or not he's done the work.

Unfortunately, school is not about whether the student's work gets done, it's all about the school getting paid for the student sitting in a seat. It's illuminating to compare how educator's propaganda meets the money trail.

'The student' is for monetary purposes 'the property' of the school during assigned hours.

[Scairp]

48. "This is just more zero tolerance bullshit, IMO."

Uh, NO it isn't. What IS bullshit is the kid's education being put second behind near-extreme religious activities. This mother has her priorities seriously screwed up.

[China_cat]

15. Because the funding

the school gets is tied directly to attendance. If attendance is allowed to slip for any reason the $$$$ get cut.

That's why you have so many kids going to school sick and the school encouraging it by draconian policies. Here it's 10 days absence, no matter if you have a doctor's excuse and your grades are a perfect 4.0, and you can count on repeating the grade. (However, if you show up long enough for the teacher to recognize you, you are counted in that day's attendance and then you can go home again.)

As to expelling him. I can understand that. They've lost the funding for him already. Looking at him is just going to piss them off.

[tsuki]

32. I knew in the end it would be about MONEY.

[Zhade]

44. I can tell you that, in this case, for me that's true.

I do not want my tax dollars involved in any way in subsidizing any form of religion - and making special religious exemptions for specific students smacks of funding their ability to get school credit while being involved in religious activities on school time.

[blue sky at night]

3. Rules are there for a reason.....

let us hope that the mother can understand that, and therefore abide by them.

[Bozita]

5. oooh, ... love that bumper sticker

wish it were larger

[blue sky at night]

52. bet you say that to all.....

the guys! I wish I could find the site that sells them, I can't seem to find it again. I want to give them to all my right-wing friends and relatives.

[TheDebbieDee]

4. I'm a little in the dark....

I would need to to register to read the news article and I don't wanna. But, if this is a private school, it seems that it has made its attendance policies, while very strict, quite clear.

Even though I haven't read the article, it doesn't appear the school has changed its attendance policy to single out this family.

Sounds like this family needs to find a school with an attendance policy that accommodates their religious holidays.

[Tempest]

7. bugmenot.com

Type in the name of the web site and you'll get a pre-registered name and password to the site.


The attendence policy has been in use for years according to the article.

The parents are the ones trying to get the exception.

[LiberalFighter]

64. Another source

Student reprimanded for religious absences

[w4rma]

11. If this is a private school then they can do anything that they please.

If this is a public school then the superintendent is in the wrong as the U.S. government (through the schools or otherwise) has no right in interfere in the practices of religion.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. When I taught public school in IL

we had people who belonged to this church. They went to CA for the Feast of the Tabernacles celebration, and took their kids out of school for two weeks. As I recall, there was no problem-lessons were given and the kids had to have them complete by the time they got back.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. It's different now

with NCLB, the pressure is ON. If the kids aren't in school, we can't prepare them for the big tests. Then there is also the $$ the district is not paid in state aid when the kids aren't in school. So districts nationwide have written pretty strict attendance policies. 10 years ago, kids could go on religious trips and be absent without the schools saying much. But now that there is so much pressure on - thanks to NCLB - to raise test scores, we have pretty strict attendance policies.

And I support the school. Expulsion seems pretty extreme but how fair is it to hold the school accountable for this kid's attendance if he isn't there to learn? Why would it be right to pass him on to the next grade if he isn't at school?

[Tempest]

14. The issue is NOT religion

The issue is attendance.

And by holding the student to the EXISTING policy, the school is proving it has nothing to do with religion.

[w4rma]

23. No. The issue *is* religion.

If their religion requires them to take 1 week off then they should be able to do it without worrying about retaliation from the government.

[Tempest]

25. Sorry, you're wrong.

Their religion is NOT requiring them to do anything. They are CHOOSING to attend the rally. Free will, remember?

And the school is CHOOSING to enforce their existing policy.


BTW, the government is not the one making the decision, the local school is the one making the decision.

[w4rma]

29. Sorry, Tempest. You are being intolerant towards these folks' beliefs.

And so is the school's superintendent. The government, through the school, is compeling these folks not to celebrate with the rest of their church. Maybe *you* have something against religions where *you* would like the government to compel everyone into not joining churches and that is why you belive that this kid should be expelled because he observed his religious holiday.

[Tempest]

34. You're entitled to your opinion

Regardless of how misguided it is.

You obviously cannot separate your beliefs from the facts in this instance.


And claiming I have something against religion is showing intolerance.

It seems you're not above hypocrisy.


BTW, I never claimed I agreed with the policy, only that it should be followed by ALL students.

You seem to want a religious exception, which is a form of reverse discrimination.

[Zhade]

45. It's also a violation of separation of church and state.

The school enforcing the policy, on the other hand, is NOT violating that separation. As you said, the school is not forcing the kid to NOT go, just saying "these are the rules, they apply to everyone, if you feel otherwise you can't attend here" - and given that the parents knew this beforehand, their choice is clear: comply with the policy, or use their free will to choose another school more suitable to their religious needs.

[LiberalFighter]

59. Nothing that says they must celebrate their feast at some remote location

They could just as easily practice this locally without their children missing school.

Jewish religion has a similar practice but it doesn't interfere with the schooling?

[TahitiNut]

68. "remote"?

They're 'celebrating' in places like Maui and Branson, MO ... where they can "feed the beast." :eyes:

These aren't religious 'retreats' or ascetic encampments; they're tourism, pure and simple. It's like the sponsors are all travel agents.

[LiberalFighter]

69. You got that right... they even had one in Wisconsin Dells

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. Expulsion seems rather harsh.

But the kid has got to be at school before the school can be held accountable for his achievement.

It's hard not to leave the kids behind if they don't even come to school.

[Igel]

53. Issue is religion ...

I've known lots of people in churches that kept Tabernacles and other OT holy days. They also tend to keep a rather strict Saturday sabbath. And avoid pork & shellfish. In some groups, this is a requirement for membership.

They didn't keep things like Xmas, New Years, or Easter. Some didn't keep Thanksgiving (a non-denominational Xian holiday).


Since things were set up for the majority, athletic and other extracurricular events were on Saturdays; dances were on Friday night. Not only did school money go for activities their religion barred them from, the other kids wound up picking on them fairly mercilessly. In areas without Jewish students, there were times when none of the food options in the cafeteria were edible.

The kids/parents were forced to take a winter break based on a tradition of Xmas and New Years, or a spring break timed to coincide with Easter. This, after being penalized for keeping their own religious holidays. Most got work ahead of time, and came back with a pile of homework done, ready for makeup tests/quizzes a few days later.

Isn't democracy to be judged not by how it treats the majority, but by how it treats its minorities?

[Rose Siding]

18. And if the religion requires prayer in school?

This is a slippery slope.

Take it to the extreme. Suppose there are numerous religions that require extended absence at varying times throughout the year. Is the teacher supposed to plan lessons and make-ups (excluding things that can only be accomplished in class) at the expense of the students who are present?

The practice of religion is guaranteed but if equal education were also guaranteed constitutionally, would local education budgets be affected as well?

slippery slope

[w4rma]

24. They aren't practicing a religion in school or compeling others to.

There is no slippery slope in this direction. The slippery slope is made with the policy you support where the government can compel folks into NOT do what their religion requires.

[Zhade]

47. The parents can choose another school. Your slippery slope does not apply.

NT!

[DemBones DemBones]

51. And if their religion requires praying in school? Like Muslims, you mean,

who must pray five times a day, meaning during their school or work day. Like the Muslim kids in Atlanta who are now allowed to leave class to pray? I predict that's going to cause much controversy down the line.

[MattWinMO]

22. what if someone's religion says not to send kids to school

Should the family not have to send kids to school? Parents don't have an absolute right to do anything they want with their kids.

[w4rma]

26. It is required by state and federal law that all children receive a basic

education. 1 week out for a religious ceremony is NOT the same thing as expeling your child from school and not signing the child up with a new one.

[MattWinMO]

31. the line has to be drawn somewhere...

What about a religion that requires kids to be off for a month? If you let these kids off a week to accomodate them then why not religions with holy months. People constantly try to push the limits when it comes to these things.

[nemo137]

49. Wisconsin v. Yoder (1972)

http://www.phschool.com/atschool/supreme_court_cases/yoder.html

"This case involves the fundamental interest of parents, as contrasted with that of the State, to guide the religious future and education of their children," Burger wrote. Western "history and culture," he wrote, "reflect a strong tradition of parental concern for the nurture and upbringing of their children" which the State should not ignore.

[leftofthedial]

16. hmmm. our schools don't seem to mind

when I take my kids out of class every few days for our Muffy the Mystery Cat ritual sacrifice and barn dance.

Unlike the "Sons of Joseph" suicide and murder cults that dominate the religious landscape here in Murka, our religion actually *works*. Since we began our weekly three-day sacrifices and barn dances, the earth has not been destroyed by an all-powerful feline deity named Muffy. Praise Muffy.

[TahitiNut]

37. Pass the ritual catnip, please.

:smoke:

[rocktivity]

17. I think expulsion is extreme, but it IS a private school

and if the parents don't like the policy, they can take their "business" elsewhere. If allowing only one abscence for religious observance was going to be a problem, the parents should have worked out something when they signed the kid up.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Rose Siding]

19. Is it a private school?

I can't tell that from the article.

[LiberalFighter]

65. It's not... school corporation... therefore public school

[zbdent]

20. Sounds like one of those people who want to make trouble

This past week in the Akron Beacon Journal, they covered the "home schooling" issue, pointing out the failings of it. (As if that wasn't enough, some kid out here tried to pull a Santorum and get on the public school swim team, despite being "charter schooled" - the school wasn't good enough for him, but the "swim team" and pool are? - Now a Repuke state senator {Coughlin} is trying to rewrite the law for one kid - typical).

Now the controversy is a lot of individual "squeaky wheels" are screaming "PROPOGANDA".

The parents in the "Religion trumps attendance" should shut their f-ing traps and "home-school" the kid, if they are so smart . . .

[wellstone dem]

21. It's about money is my guess

At least here, if a child isn't in school, the school doesn't get as much school aid. This is about the school budget. They don't want the kids missing because they need the $ due to inadequate funding. My daughter goes to a catholic school and just missed 5 days because of knee surgery. Funny, no threat of expulsion. Instead a teacher offered to stop by the house to help her with her math. (A horrible idea because then I'd have to clean.)

[Sadie5]

27. The law is clear

in Indiana. The child must have X hours of classroom instruction and lecture. They fail if absent too much. All of the schools are this way no matter why the child is absent. Even the Catholic schools have cut down on holy days to accommodate the laws.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. You are correct

In my state the kids cannot miss more than 10 days a semester or they are retained. That is a state law.

[MattWinMO]

33. surgery is different from just wanting to get off school...

Sorry but I think alot of these people wanting off for countless religious observance days just want an excuse not to go to work or school.

I'm Catholic and certainly don't think Catholics should get excused absences on every saints day.

I'm betting this feast of the tabernacles is a minor holy day. I never knew Catholics who took off on Ash Wednesday or even Jews who took off Channukah.

[LiberalFighter]

66. I never knew catholics that did either when I was in school

I remember seeing kids with the ash mark on their forehead for that event.

As for every saints day.... isn't there a saint for just about all of the days now? It would seem like it especially with the current pope creating many more.

[Schema Thing]

38. Sheesh, let the kid learn about Jesus, fer christ sake!

This world is passing away after all.

[TahitiNut]

39. Ignorance + Faith = Canon Fodder

"Gott Mit Uns" (Get 'em while they're young.)

[arwalden]

40. That Equation Is Right Up There With E=mc2

:-)

[TahitiNut]

43. I think so. (... and neither are missing an 'n', either.)

"Puns 'R' Us" :evilgrin:

[Igel]

54. Conscientious objectors.

The predecessors of the United Church of God were conscientious objectors in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. They were locked up.

But since the trend on this thread seems to be not making allowance for religious beliefs, I guess they deserved it.

[TahitiNut]

67. I guess you didn't get it.

Too bad. :shrug:

[Zhade]

41. Shoulda gone with the "Feast of Maximum Occupancy", kid.

NT!

[jpgray]

50. Only miss five days? I think I missed thirty in seventh grade alone (nt)

[VegasWolf]

55. Well, my religion requires me to lay in the sun and drink

margarittas, eat seafood with fine wine, and
rejuvenate for 8 weeks.

[LiberalFighter]

56. From what I can figure out this is like a Jewish holiday

Now do children of the Jewish faith have off from school for religous holidays? I don't believe they get any special privileges.

[Igel]

60. Depends on the school district.

I've seen public schools that had matzo during Passover.

But time off isn't a problem--you miss Yom Kippur, Rosh Hoshana, and a few other days, and you don't go over your limit. I've known very few really observant Jews, mostly they go to synagogue a couple of times a year. But at college, both state and private, faculty were told to bend over backwards to accommodate Jewish and Xian holidays.

[DemBones DemBones]

57. Tri-Creek School Corporation sounds like the operator of

a private school or schools. As others have already noted, a private school can do whatever it wants to do.

Several posters mentioned financing of public schools but some seemed to suggest that attendance laws were an evil conspiracy to keep kids in school just to get more money. In fact, they're a necessary plan to assure adequate funding for the school's needs, which are the needs lf its students.

Funding, and we're talking government funding from tax monies collected from taxpayers, is based on ADA = average daily attendance. Schools determine their budget based on their needs and what they can expect to receive in government funding. Losing part of the funding due to some student's absenteeism is bound to result in cuts in programs, having a negative impact on the students.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. The funding formula is different in each state.

I teach in MO. In that state, school districts are paid for daily attendance. So a kid's absence does result in less revenue. But in KS, where I live, an average daily atendance is figured on one day early in the year. That is the figure the state uses to fund the school district. So if a kid has excessive absences, it doesn't affect the state aid.