Abortion debate looms anew (in CA)

[question everything]

Long Beach Press Telegram

Abortion debate looms anew
Ballot issue requires girls under 18 to tell parents.
By Ben Schnayerson
Staff writer

(snip)

A ballot initiative that would require girls under the age of 18 to notify their parents before they have an abortion started circulating last week for the required 598,105 signatures.

Girls could go to a judge if they don't want to tell their parents and can show they are mature enough to make the decision on their own and that an abortion is in their best interest.

The proposal exempts girls when there is a medical emergency.

The proponents' main concern, they claim, is the safety of the girls, not eliminating abortion. They say they want to make sure the girls are getting abortions by qualified doctors in proper facilities.

More..
http://www.presstelegram.com/Stories/0,1413,204~21474~2560573,00.html#

[Cheswick2.0]

1. yeahsureight

The proponents' main concern, they claim, is the safety of the girls, not eliminating abortion. They say they want to make sure the girls are getting abortions by qualified doctors in proper facilities.
g


If the democrats cave on this, WOMAN'S PARTY.

[jdj]

12. that is rich, isn't it?

if she won't go before the judge, well, it's coathangers for her.

[Warpy]

2. In a state with a squeal law last month

there was a case of a girl who endured beatings with a baseball bat until she spontaneously aborted. Her boyfriend was charged with assault and his mother was charged with tampering with evidence for disposing of the dead fetus.

This is what those laws do, drive desperate girls into amateur abortion schemes.

Abortion is self defense. You wouldn't want your daughter to come ask you if she could fight off a rapist. She shouldn't have to ask you for permission to defend her health and life against an unwanted pregnancy.

Girls with good parental relationships will tell their parents. Girls with bad parental relationships will experiment with coat hangers or worse.

[The Zanti Regent]

3. How does this work when Daddy gets his daughter pregnant?

and Mommy is repeatedly beaten by Daddy?

Just want to know the mechanics, especially if the girl faces "pro Life" judges...

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. That's why there is a clause tha a judge can

okay the abortion without parental notification.

And I see nothing wrong with this. If I had a teenage daughter, I would want to be informed if she had any medical procedure, not only an abortion.

[question everything]

5. Except that abortion is not "any medical procedure"

Needing abortion means admitting that your daughter is sexually active. How many parents are ready to hear this? I compare this to the early days of AIDS, when admitting to AIDS meant, for many, admitting for homosexuals relations.

We cannot legislate good parental communications; we cannot legislate behavior. Haven't we learned anything from Prohibition?

As for sending girls and women to back room botched abortion - no doubt, many RWers will look at this as "just punishment." After all, we are talking about people who welcome "rupture."

[Merlin]

7. You're exaggerating what this reactionary measure will do.

Of course this is a sop to the fundies, and an effort to move Cahl-Eee-Phone-Eeeyaaah to the right. But it is not nearly as drastic as you suggest.

There is nothing wrong with forcing a teenager to confront her parents and vice versa when she becomes sexually active and careless. It's very important that a teenage girl who gets into such a situation be able to talk about it with her family. If they have a suckass relationship, this will make it no worse, and may very well make it better. If the father is a violent asshole, a judge will provide a workaround. If that judge doesn't, Planned Parenthood will find one that does.

Nor will this require anybody to go to back room abortionists, though it may indeed create a black market for Morning After or whatever it's called.

We can not as a political party stand for unaccountable behavior by teenagers. We are already accused of licentiousness.

[question everything]

9. Do you also believe in Santa Claus and in the Easter Bunny?

Yes, sure, there is nothing wrong with forcing a teenager to "confront" her parents; there is nothing wrong with forcing a couple to think before they get married and to thing before they bring a child to the world.

There is nothing wrong with forcing society to care for the weakest members - but reality is that none of these happen. Human nature being what it is, people - young and old - will always try to find ways to circumvent what is being forced on them.

Do you know that the rate of pregnancy is a lot higher among teens who "swore" to chastity, once they do have sex? That's because they are not
prepared to behave responsibly once they do find themselves in the tempting situation when their hormones take over whatever they were taught.

[Merlin]

32. No. I believe in recognizing facts. You?

I have no idea what part of your post is supposed to disprove what I said. Somehow you evidently think I favor chastity. What the hell are you imagining?

The fact is that this is a reasonable law in the minds of many, many parents who do not want their TEENAGE, DEPENDENT CHILDREN having an abortion without their knowledge.

Your inability to grasp the legitimacy of that concern makes it no less legitimate.

[question everything]

61. What you wrote are not facts, but wishful thinking

"There is nothing wrong with forcing a teenager to confront her parents and vice versa when she becomes sexually active and careless. It's very important that a teenage girl who gets into such a situation be able to talk about it with her family. "

You cannot force any one to communicate with anyone. You either have open relations or you do not. You can pontificate all you want about how important it is for a teenage girl to talk to her parents but what if she will not? Can you really create environment in every home in the country that is conducive for such open communications? And I am not even talking about broken homes with step dads and step moms, or with the obvious situation when a family member is the father of the child. Let's just look at basic family of mom and dad where, for whatever reason, open communications do not exist. Do you really think that you can force this?

The conditions that you suggest will just trap a young girl or a woman and she will feel desperate to do whatever it will take to rid herself from her situation. Often with tragic consequence.

[hinachan]

65. Spare me....

<<The fact is that this is a reasonable law in the minds of many, many parents who do not want their TEENAGE, DEPENDENT CHILDREN having an abortion without their knowledge.>>

Many parents also believe that parents who are radical religious nuts who believe modern medicine is a sin, should also have the final authority to let their "dependent children" die just because THEY don't "believe in" doctors.

There comes a time when the state needs to intervene, for the sake of the minor's safety. Getting medical help for a little boy or girl, or getting a safe abortion for a young girl whose parents can't be trusted, are of equal importance.

If you seriously think a minor isn't going to get an abortion just because some stupid law exists to try to make parents think they've done their job (which they haven't, or the girl wouldn't be pregnant), you're crazy. That same kid will fall into the hands of a back alley abortionist, and probably wind up hospitalized or dead.

But by then, it'll be too late to get her to a reputable doctor.

So "parents" like you would rather see girls murdered by quacks than cared for by reputable doctors?? Kinda makes you understand why these poor kids got pregnant in the first place....

[regnaD kciN]

67. Good response!

Don't people realize that probably the biggest motivation for a teenage girl to have an abortion is to keep from having to admit to her parents that she's had sex?

(And, when people speak of the problems of having "poor family communication," that really stands as the understatement of the month. Let's face it, for far too many girls, making such an admission to their parents is not going to result in said parents "rising to the occasion" and helping her to find a solution in a caring environment. In reality, having to admit that she's "not a virgin anymore" will lead to a rupture of family ties, severe and prolonged verbal and even physical abuse, and even being kicked out of the family home and forced to fend for herself on the streets. Anyone who doubts that such treatment would be a very common reaction of many families to such a situation is truly living in a fantasy world.)

And, of course, that's the logic of the pro-lifers: if a teenager wants an abortion to keep from having to tell her parents that she's been having sex, and she's forced to tell them anyway, then their hope is that, after somehow making it over that hurdle, she'll decide that there's no point to having an abortion now and choose to keep the baby. (Not to mention the cases, of course, where the parents are either fundie or conservative Roman Catholic, and thus will demand that she carry the child to term, since they can't countenace any member of their family becoming a "baby killer," even if they are already a "slut." :eyes: )

[jdj]

14. we wouldn't need a black market for morning after if it weren't for this a

admin. The FDA approved it OTC remember, and the pukes took it off the market anyway.

There was an article several years back about a college age girl and her boyfriend who put their child in a dumpster. Their families were wealthy, but very religious. I think they both did time.

It's ironic that the girls most likely to get in this situation are the ones that come from religious families, those teens may delay sex but inevitably end up with higher STD rates because they don't protect themselves. Their families may not be violent, but the issue is is it right to force a teen to bear a child against her own will...

"Unnaccountable behavior by teenagers"???? Are you joking???

Perhaps you need to take a trip over to the smoking gun and look at the rap sheets of Barbara and Jenna Bush. Wonder if they've had abortions. You KNOW they are on birth control, what with all their paryting and dope-smoking (a la Ashton Kutcher Rolling Stone article), surely they've forgotten their pills, or had a condom break now and again...

Your reasoning is so "moral".

[Merlin]

33. And what does that prove?

Does it maybe prove that the 51% of white WOMEN who voted for Bush made a mistake. Well, HeLLo!

What the fuck are you smoking to make yourself believe that TEENAGE CHILDREN who are DEPENDENTS of their parents do not owe their parents honesty? What makes you think the "system" should not force accountability upon them?

I'm a proud liberal. But I know how to draw lines. Evidently many liberals think that liberal means anything goes, no responsibility, no accountability. Horseshit. The world doesn't work that way. And the Democratic Party does not defend irresponsibility.

It is irresponsible to allow oneself to become impregnated in casual sex. Somebody must teach the child accountability and responsibility. Allowing them cheap, secret abortions solves their immediate problem but teaches them nothing except that they can avoid confronting their irresponsibility.

[jdj]

52. are you saying you should force a child to bear a child to

teach a child responsibility??

Children are by nature "irresponsible". That's why they are called children.

[WildClarySage]

53. Yes

those little assholes should pay dearly for relinquishing control of their bodies to their hormones.

[Liberty Belle]

64. I have a teenage daughter.

While I hope she won't ever be in this situation, I'd rather have her get a safe, legal abortion without my knowledge then resort to a coat hanger or back alley abortionist that could leave her sterile or worse, dead.

[WildClarySage]

20. Carelessness is not the only cause of unintended pregnancy

lots of careful people get pregnant every year. You sound as though you want to punish young women for the sin of being careless and *gasp* having needs like the rest of us. The fact is that even responsible teens can get pregnant, just like the rest of us.

These laws are always about reducing abortion availability and limiting the freedom women have to plan their own futures in the absence of condescending judgmental attitudes. Making her go before a judge reasserts the notion that a young woman has no control over her own life. And all so we can police family relationships.

[Merlin]

34. You obviously do not have children.

If/when you do and they reach their teens you will realize what I'm talking about.

Wherein have I said I want to "punish" young women? Wherein have I called it a "sin?"

You fail to grasp the simple fact that there are consequences for our behavior in this life. A parent's solemn duty is to raise their children in such a way as to avoid making mistakes. Unintended pregnancies are mistakes. No matter what you say, any woman who gets pregnant unintentionally has acted irresponsibly--except in the tiny fraction of cases where birth control methods have failed.

Why do you think it is "punishment" to require that a surgical procedure performed on a TEENAGE DEPENDANT CHILD should rightfully be kept from the child's parents--assuming the parents are responsible human beings? A child who has made such an error is in desparate need of parental counseling and family support.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. and they will come to their parents if they can

I worked in a womans clinic and the percentage of girls who come there without a parent is tiny. The ones who could not consult a parent for whatever reason should not have to have a stranger decide for her in court.
We are not TALKING ABOUT YOU AND YOUR DAUGHTER. This is not about you, so stop asking the courts to step in and do your job for you.

[WildClarySage]

50. Actually I do have children, and amazingly I *still* disagree with you

"No matter what you say, any woman who gets pregnant unintentionally has acted irresponsibly--except in the tiny fraction of cases where birth control methods have failed."

Or, I suppose you mean, in instances of rape or coersion? I wonder, if you lump birth control failure with rape and coersion do you still get a 'tiny fraction'? Coersion is far more common than most people know. Are teen girls being empowered to resist coersion? Is ignorance of factual birth control information truly "act irresponsibly?

"A child who has made such an error is in desparate need of parental counseling and family support." And such a child, having not received it in the past, who is unwilling to go to her parents without a law forcing her to, is miraculously going to start receiving it?

[jdj]

54. you assume way too much.

I'm gay, I don't use birth control. Are you calling me irresponsible? Suppose I were to become pregnant as a result of the rape, is that what you call irresponsible?

Sex, by the way, is not an error. All you have to do is look at statistics to see that teens are having sex. Childbirth should never be doled out as punishment.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

60. I'm torn

I understand your concern and would hope that every girl who found herself contemplating abortion would speak to her parents.

But, I can imagine a scene in shich a 17 year old girl finds herself pregant because of a loving relationship with her boyfriend or folly, might be terrified of what her parents would say or do.

At 17 I felt I was more mature than my own mother. I stil think I am. I would definitely have wanted that option open.

Then again, I understand when a sincerely good parent wants to have more say in what their daughter might do under trying times and obviously desperate times as well.

[The Flaming Red Head]

24. Some kids don't have any parents and they can't go to a court

so yes it may force some back alley abortions to occur

[Merlin]

35. That makes no sense whatsoever.

If they have no parents, then there's nobody to notify, now, is there?

Good God! How much teaching do sane minds have to do on this board these days to try to educate those who prefer to think with their hearts rather than their heads?

[jdj]

71. Oh, you're one of "those".

I'm sure Bush has a place for you in his new administration, it's full of folks who are terrified of emotion and paradox and turn to blind fascist obedience as a sheild from living life as an emotionally mature adult.

[Cronus Protagonist]

39. You are so naiive

The pain and violence that younr girls will have to go through because of this proposal is real. And you don't care. Shame on you.


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[loyalsister]

59. You seem to believe everyone lives like you do

But, the fact of the matter is family dynamics are not uniform.
Some families are violent, and some teenagers don't even really have parents to confront.
I get the feeling that the people who think ideas such as these are good ones, have this unshakable belief that the world outside operates according to some law of nature that governs the insides of their homes.

[The Zanti Regent]

6. You missed the point, what if the judge opposes abortion?

What if the "pro-life" judge orders a daughter to carry Daddy's child?

that is the point that makes me sick!

[Merlin]

8. Not 'gonna happen.

Planned Parenthood will make sure they know which judges to avoid.

[choicevoice]

11. Planned parenthood doesn't get to choose the judge

[Merlin]

29. Bullshit. Kids who need abortion will go there first.

They will know the lawyers who will know the ropes and the judges. What do you think the law is going to specify which judge an appellant can approach?

[The Zanti Regent]

37. Show me a kid who knows the legal system!

You have NO CLUE as to what you are talking about!

[Merlin]

42. I have known literally dozens of teenagers who have had abortions.

How the fuck do you think they find out about how to get abortions?

What kind of fucking smoke are you trying to blow up the world's ass? If kids know how to get an abortion, they know who to contact if they need to get referred to Planned Parenthood which will help them get legal help.

I don't mind if you disagree with me. Just be honest about it.

[Cheswick2.0]

47. Planned parenthood is not the place where kids get refered to

abortion providers. They look in the yellow pages.
I think your claim to know dozens of teens who have had abortions is a bit bizzare. Who are all these young girls?

[WildClarySage]

55. uhhh, yes?

It does in most states. A clerk of courts schedules the cases to be seen- its' not a drop-in when you get a moment kind of thing.

[Cheswick2.0]

27. get real

There is no good reason for this law. The girls who can't go to their parents should not be forced to.

[Merlin]

31. I'm real. How 'bout you?

Do you realize that there is an assault on us all over the country based on abortion? Do you understand we Democrats are known as babykillers to half the nation?

That's the climate we're in. That's REAL. All the wishing you want to do won't change that. So let's be realistic about what's coming down the pike, shall we?

Your first sentence is true enough. But your second is incorrect as a criticism of the law. You say "The girls who can't go to their parents should not be forced to." Well, they aren't. There's a provision allowing a petition to the courts for permission instead of informing the parents. That's what we were discussing here when you came along.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. apparently what constitues a "human right" is when it effects you

and the rest of us can all pound sand.

[Cronus Protagonist]

57. Sometimes the truth hurts, but you brought it on yourself

I restate, you want to remove people's civil rights. Ergo you are in the wrong party. If the Republican party isn't for you, fine, but please do find somewhere else to shit on that's not here.

Thanks.

[Cheswick2.0]

43. Chicken shit

Because the bullies are bullies we should act like chicken shit and agree with them? Forget it, *Mr* Merlin. Find one of your own civil rights to give up to placate the right.

I understand the law perfectly. The court option is cruel and humiliating. The judge is not necessarily going to agree with the girl but she has to ask him or her for permission to do something only she can decide to do. Talk about backwards and punitive laws. Jesus, why not just give all girls a chastity belt at 10?

Have you ever been a pregnant teenage girl? NO? Then take a flying leap. You have no idea what your opinion means to the people who really have to deal with these situations. Your opinion is selfish, it is all about you and your teenagers and doesn't take into account the real lives of girls you don't even know.

If the democrats can not do better than cave into this nonsense you can enjoy your tiny little party because women will be leaving in flocks to form a party with like minded people who will not sell each other out. I expect plenty of pro-choice republican women will join us.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. No girl should be forced to go before a judge to make a private

choice about her future. Once a girl is pregnant she has to make adult decisions. No one can make that choice for her.

[TahitiNut]

36. How many trimesters will it take the 'judge' to rule?

Catch-22. The court system doesn't really facilitate "judge shopping" and it'll be the Clerk of Courts who'll have the greatest control. Any delay whatsoever in handling such a petition is a de facto denial.

[Cheswick2.0]

45. You are so right!

And thank you

[Maat]

38. In fact, that's the law. Lawmakers have no choice.

Per case precedent of the U.S. Supreme Court (as much the law as any statute), there must be a judicial bypass, or the statute is not valid.

[WildClarySage]

51. And *'s appointees have so often been opposed to granting

these exceptions, there is reason to be concerned that this option will not be available. Besides, teen girls who do not have a trusting relationship with their parents are sure as hell not going to trust the legal system to respect their right to anonymity.

[calimary]

10. ...or when Mommy's new boyfriend knocks up her daughter

after he's beaten Mommy to a pulp, and stopped to have his tenth or eleventh drink?

I'm with Cheswick2.0 up there in the first post. Yeahsureright. Yeah, SURE all they're interested in is protecting the health of the girls. That's certainly one for the "yeah, sure" file.

Just more wolves in sheep's clothing.

Protecting any woman's health is, AT BEST, secondary in the priorities of these people. I hope I see one of these petition people. I'll make sure to let them know exactly what I think of this. And loud enough for other people to hear. And I'll remind them that HERE IN KAHLEEFORNEEA, their own dear darling precious Arnold is pro-choice. Something I'm sure they're trying hard to forget, avoid, deny, or rewrite.

[Guaranteed]

13. You want good issue framing?

Call this one the "Coathanger Law."

[jdj]

15. thats right.

I guess we could say, at least these teens have grown up in the age of technology, maybe someone should start a website called "illegal abortions r' us, a DIY guide" or something.

They have websites on eating disorders, on making bombs, on washing checks, on making meth, why not this, for the wimmins?

[Cheswick2.0]

28. that is exactly what will happen

it's sick. Now we have men who feel they can't get control of their kids so they want the courts to do it for them.

[jdj]

56. aack!

so true.

[Bill ORights]

26. Right on! Coathanger Law it is! NT

[benddem]

16. the woman who wants to know

if her daughter is going to have an abortion would most likely be informed by the daughter. This is just one more attempt by the fundies to start prohibiting abortions. There is enough evidence that parental notification has caused young women to die at the hands of a parent. We don't need this.

[jdj]

17. yes, my parents were fundies, they never mentioned abortion

but my mom told both of us if we needed birth control she would get us an appointment. I didn't take her up on it, but I got the message that she would rather I have b.c. than an unintended pregnancy.

My best friend got pregnant at 15, had the baby, then took off and left it with her parents. They ended up raising the child, which I am sure they would rather have not. This may have been self-interest on the part of my mother, trying to avoid getting us in this situation.

[Gman]

18. Having had a daughter that was a teenager and another that is a teen

I've got to admit I do have mixed emotions on this one. After they're 18 I really don't give a damn what they do as long as I don't know about it because I'll have to rant and/or worry.

In fact, my 23 year old daughter came to me early this year wanting me to pay for an abortion. I refused as I am really anti-abortion, but both my wife (not her mother) and I told her it was her choice as she is an adult now, and we wouldn't interfere nor would we badger her. I also told her I didn't want to know what she eventually did either. The only thing I really know for sure is she thought she was pregnant.

[Cheswick2.0]

30. if she came to you for money, believe me she was positive

she was pregnant. I guess she found some other way to pay for it. Maybe she was forced to confront the boy or perhaps she sold something.

[TexasBushwhacker]

19. If the doctors are qualified or the facilities aren't proper

then I would think the abortions would be illegal anyway. This is bullshit. The proponents are trying to say that it's for the girls safety AS IF abortion is riskier than carrying the pregnancy to term AND IT ISN'T!!! Early abortion is SAFER than delivering a baby and late term abortion is no more risky than delivering a full term baby.

By requiring parental notification or approval by a judge, the time it takes to GET the abortion is delayed, thus INCREASING RISK. Anyone that buys what the proponents are selling is a fool.

[George_S]

21. More questions than answers...

How can anyone decide anything based on an article like this?

1) Is 19% of all abortions that much higher than the per capita average? Since California has the largest population, doesn't it makes sense it would have a higher percentage?

2) If teens cannot legally consent to sex, how can they legally consent to an operation?

3) It says 19-years-old or younger, so how many of those 19% are actually 18 or over and able to enter into a medical contract? What would the percentage be if it only included under 18?

4) What percentage of the 19% are from rape or incest? Seems that would be a very small percentage and that would make that argument less forceful.

5) If the law provided for the exceptional cases of rape and incest, would it then be ok? If not, that argument is only a straw man.

6) If she would get an illegal abortion rather tell her parents, would the law provide for approval of a legal abortion because it is an emergency otherwise?

7) Would the law provide for funds and education or legal help to apply to a court for permission?

Arnie might go for this one because on its face it seems to protect them. It's even possible they consulted him first before they drew up the language.

[Ima]

22. What I see is

just one more step to make abortion difficult. 'It's for the children,don't ya know'. They will keep chipping away at abortion, until it's gone. Most girl's that have any kind of 'trusting relationship' with one/both parents will tell/ask advise anyway.The girls that come from troubled homes will suffer.

[The Flaming Red Head]

23. I know a 17 year old in CA that doesn't know where her mother is

father's dead. What's someone like her supposed to do?

Not everyone has a stable family to go to and most in that situation would never go to the state or to court.

[Cheswick2.0]

46. well then she can go through the court system

who cares how humiliating it might be to be lectured by some stranger in court... and will the offending sperm donor be there too?
</sarcasm>

[davidinalameda]

49. does she have a guardian

or is she a ward of the state?

I'm sure that the proposed law doesn't just have provisions for only notifying parents

[Dr Fate]

58. This is Unconstitutional unless there is a "Judicial Bypass"

that is, if you cannot get parental consent, you can still go to judge (assuning the judge will consent...)

More political BS from the "moral party"

[alexisfree]

62. BUSH & CO. Every baby is $250K in new taxes in life time.

[Liberty Belle]

63. What happens if they tell Mom/Dad and parents won't agree?

Can she have an abortion anyhow if one or both parents refuse consent? What if she's carrying a child with serious problems, such as brain damage? Or if the girl is so young and small that her doctor isn't sure she can deliver safely? Or if it's incest, or she's been raped--and she's 13? Or she's got cancer, and the parents want to put the baby's life above their daughter's? This is an outrage. Young girls don't know anything about the court system. They'd just hide the pregnancy until it's too late, if they can't get help from a doctor in time--or do whatever Mom and Dad order her to do. What if they just lock her up until her delivery date? Is that legal, too????

[droidamus]

66. Watch what they do not listen to what they say

This is not a situation that I will have to deal with, but I think there is a side issue here that is being left out. We all know that the right wing in this country has become very adept at couching their positions in what appears to be very reasonable language. We must remain vigilant and aware of their ulterior motives. I think we can all agree that it would be great if all girls who end up with an unwanted pregnancy could receive help from a loving family and on the surface that's what this sounds like. On the other hand I recall the pre-Roe v Wade days and I seem to remember a lot of arguments against abortion that had little to do with 'unborn babies'. Those arguments usually centered around the fact that sex outside of marriage was a sin and that if a girl did get pregnant it was her punishment for sinning that she should have to carry the pregnancy to term. Is their real motive to make unwanted pregnancies as humiliating as possible, to allow parents and possibly right wing judges to decide for the girl. If implemented in a way that kept the best interests of the pregnant girl and her future as the priority maybe this idea would work, but and this is a big but is that how it will be implemented or will it just be used by the anti-abortionists as another way to intimidate vulnerable young women. Just remember what the right wing says and what the right wing does can be two vastly different things.

[Kool Kitty]

68. Well-said and welcome.

:hi:

[imenja]

69. FL just passed a parental notificatioin amendment

by a 2: 1 margin. I bet it would pass in CA too.

[greenohio]

70. I think what kills us in the discussion is the meme

that a kid can't get aspirin without their parents approval but can get an abortion. If this is true, there appears to be an inconsistency here and makes us look radical, whether or not we are. Should we be pushing to remove restrictions in other places, like medication and all medical treatment?