Israel shocked by image of soldiers forcing violinist to play at roadblo

[okieinpain]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1361755,00.html



I'm speechless.

[AlexHamilton]

1. Just imagine...

What the would make him do with that violin in Abu Ghraib!

Alex Hamilton
Read my latest article here: The Media is Finally Outraged
Impeachment by the People

[okieinpain]

2. yeah, but I had not heard about the 13 year old girl, or of the

impaleing of the body. someone has to ask that if you're degraded to killing a 13 year old like she's some kind of monster from a horror movie. have you really won.

[AlexHamilton]

3. Well..

That's the situation we are now facing. War for Peace and Democracy was flawed from the get go. Let's go kill 10,000-100,000 Iraqi civilians - they will thank us later. Of course, a culture that values martydom and avenging killings with killings will thank us for killing their family members. In war, there will always be atrocities. Unfortunately we are finding that out first hand now.


Alex Hamilton
Read my latest article here: The Media is Finally Outraged
Impeachment by the People

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[prolesunited]

13. Care to elaborate on that one?

Not sure what you mean.

[LeChevalier]

14. here here

[not systems]

5. charming place

...

The incident was not as shocking as the recording of an Israeli officer pumping the body of a 13-year-old girl full of bullets and then saying he would have shot her even if she had been three years old.

Nor was it as nauseating as the pictures in an Israeli newspaper of ultra-orthodox soldiers mocking Palestinian corpses by impaling a man's head on a pole and sticking a cigarette in his mouth.

...

The critics were not drawing a parallel between an Israeli roadblock and a Nazi camp. Their concern was that Jewish suffering had been diminished by the humiliation of Mr Tayem.

...

The army's critics say the real problem is not the behaviour of soldiers on the ground but the climate of impunity that emanates from the top.

...

[The Zanti Regent]

37. More and more like Nazis every day.

I am ashamed to be a Jew.

[Cheswick2.0]

54. given the right circumstances all humans will act the same

We are all the same people.

Did you see the story several years ago about israeli soldiers writing numbers on palestinaians they were holding? No they did not brand them, but the symbolism was unmistakeable. I wonder if the Israeli soldiers are purposely forcing palestinians to suffer the same sort of indignities as pay back to the Nazi's who they can no longer reach.

[Elidor]

6. Hearts & minds, people.

It's all about winning their hearts and minds. Peace is breaking out all over.

:puke:

They have lost all sense of shame…just like Americans.

[LeChevalier]

7. Not trying to get flamed or anything BUT...

Can someone explain how that man is being "forced" to play the violin? The soldier in front of him is shuffling papers, the other guy is on the phone... meh... well anyhoo, yeah, some input would be great, I'm pretty new to D.U. and would like to see what all y'all think of this. Thanks a bunch.

[not systems]

9. When a man with a machine gun who has total power...

over your life and ability to travel tells you to do
something you are being forced.

Are you guessing this guy wanted to play for nice man
with the gun?

[LeChevalier]

12. True enough

But comparing this to Auschwitz? Yeah, they probably demanded that he play the violin (maybe it was packed with explosives! *sarcasm*), in which case that's an asshole thing to do to a guy waiting in line for a long time
My one qualm with reactions to his photo is that the posters on this thread make it seem like making the guy play the violin is comparable to burning thousands of Jews in a pit, forcing other Jews to crawl into the burning pit and ladle the burning fat back onto the corpses to feed the fire, and then throwing those people into the pit to burn. Such a comparison is... well... need I say absurd? There are plenty of other attrocities that have happened in the long and bloody history of the 20th century that one can compare the plight of the Palestinian people to; the choice of the Holocaust of the Jewish people that killed over 6 million Jews and millions of other human beings is historically and personally insensitive to say the least.
IMHO

*puts on Bar-B-Que gloves*

[not systems]

15. Ultra-orthodox soldiers mocking Palestinian corpses...

by impaling a man's head on a pole and sticking a cigarette in his mouth.

sounds a little ... how should I say this ... SICK!

Nice to see you defending it because something other
people did 50 years or more ago.

"*puts on Bar-B-Que gloves*" are you deranged?

In the context of your post that sounds a little ... SICK!

[LeChevalier]

18. I suppose I should reply to the BBQ gloves things...

That was meant as anticipation of some sort of flamewar, but looking back at my post... yeah... I see what you mean, sorry.

Oh, just a wee tidbit of info, the Ultra-Orthodox do not serve in the Israeli military (an issue of great contention among the Israeli politicos).
Yeah, and please state in quotations of my post where I defended any of the numerous crimes and mistakes undertaken by soldiers of the IDF.
One last thing, a link about the Orthodox soldiers and the spiked head thing would be great (no Guardian articles please), I haven't heard about this until now.
Thx a bunch

*Puts away BBQ gloves guiltily, replaces them with nice, innocent Teflon gloves!*

[not systems]

20. It is a quote from this article...

You don't consider the Guardian a valid news source?

I would guess you can find another source in the I/P
forum under Politics & Issues where this article will
probably be moved to very soon.

[pschoeb]

32. There are Ultra-Orthadox IDF units

They won't allow themselves in mixed units, but there are several IDF units that are exclusively ultra-orthodox. The Judah battalion is one I can think of, off the top of my head

[LeChevalier]

33. Good to know

They shouldn't let those nuts anywhere near the frontline...

[pschoeb]

36. Well, there is a new plan that came out in 2004

That the ultra-orthodox will allow themselves to be in mixed groups, as long as there are at least 10 ultra-orthodox in the unit. They would only have to serve one and half years as opposed to the 3 years that is standard for everyone else.

I think this starts out with some kind of expiremental stage before being fully implemented. This is something that they can opt for if they want to enter the labor market, as their exemption doesn't allow them to work at a regular job, except for a short duration, unless they fulfill some kind of military service.

[LeChevalier]

38. Linky?

Do you have a link for this? Very interrested to read about it... thx

[pschoeb]

45. I read it in the print version of Maariv, near the begining of the year.

Will see if I can track down something online. Not sure how the plan will work, or what the Haredim will do if put in a unit with women or gays.

[Zhade]

44. The Guardian is reputable.

You should already know that, if you're here for the right reasons.

[LeChevalier]

47. The Guardian is great on all issues

with one glaring exception: Israel/Palestine, same goes for the BBC

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=69&x_article=707

http://www.atlanticblog.com/archives/001646.html#001646

[ixat]

51. hm...

I read both your links, and all of that stands to reason. I remember reading a story about a loud Palestinian funeral, where the pallbearers slipped and dropped the corpse, which promptly got up and ran away. In many cases, a "victim population" may exaggerate their grievances, and it has been seen all over - in the Middle East, in Kosovo, and other places.

However, I have to say that CAMERA.org didn't smell entirely kosher to me (pun definitely intended). First of all, they were founded in 1982, coincidentally, the year of the Beirut invasion. Second, in their "about" statement, they write that inaccurate news reports may fuel specifically "anti-Israel and anti-Jewish prejudice." I guess that after this election, I am rather wary of sources. :)

[LeChevalier]

19. Oh yeah

And please don't call me deranged, that makes me feel all icky. I try to take my medication on a regular basis, I really do!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

22. umm did you read the full article?

[LeChevalier]

24. Yes indeedy

And I do hope the schmuks who did this get their asses handed to them. They're a disgrace. Happy now?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

26. yeah, next time read the article in full before you spew untrue facts.

[LeChevalier]

29. Arrrgh

I did not... but... wh... *cough, splutter*
*sigh*
Okay, if you're going to rip my posts as unfactual, please provide examples. It would greatly help me and all of us to gain a fuller understanding of the current sitch-ya-ation. Mmmmkay? Cool.

[ixat]

39. Actually, I can see where the guy's coming from.

And I think you're misunderstanding LeChevalier's point. Of course he's right in that there is no comparison between the Holocaust and a checkpoint procedure. But a valid reply to that may have been that it's not the gravity of the offense that merited the comparison, but the nature of it. What prompted so many Israelis to react in outrage is the question of whether they are starting to lose their souls in this long and tragic conflict, whether they're starting to acquire the attitude from which they suffered so much.

Peace.

[LeChevalier]

43. Aah, a fellow Clark supporter!

Thanks for the injection of sanity, very rare these days!

[ixat]

49. :D

My pleasure. Generally, I am a believer in sanity, and try to practice what I preach. My self-proclaimed goal in political discussion is logic, common sense and reduction of bullshit.

[LeChevalier]

50. *applause*

In that case, you might want to avoid Israel/Palestine threads. Logic, common sense, and bullshit reduction go right out the window as soon as one of these threads pop up. Why I'm here... I dunno, it's good to at least try. If I can attempt to engage in civil debate with my quasi-freeper friends, I can probably talk controversial politics with fellow progressives. *shrug* Well, it was a good theory...

[prolesunited]

17. And since you haven't bothered reading

It is the ISRAELI'S comparing it to the camps

"The rightwing Army Radio commentator Uri Orbach found the incident disturbingly reminiscent of Jewish musicians forced to provide background music to mass murder. "What about Majdanek?" he asked, referring to the Nazi extermination camp."

<snip>

Yoram Kaniuk, author of a book about a Jewish violinist forced to play for a concentration camp commander, wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper that the soldiers responsible should be put on trial "not for abusing Arabs but for disgracing the Holocaust".

"Of all the terrible things done at the roadblocks, this story is one which negates the very possibility of the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. If does not put these soldiers on trial we will have no moral right to speak of ourselves as a state that rose from the Holocaust," he wrote.



Now, what is your opinion?

[norml]

30. The difference is only in the numbers and to what degree it is being done.

What if he would have been dancing or singing for them? This looks so much like what the Nazis would do that it's not funny.

[ixat]

40. .

"The difference is only in the numbers and to what degree it is being done."

That's always the difference, it seems...

[pauliedangerously]

10. Um...

Dude...did you bother to read the article???

[i_got_2_get_away]

11. ITS EITHER...

It's either that or gettin bullets in you. I guess he valued life very much and decide not to risk his life. Check up on ZIonist War Crimes

[prolesunited]

16. Please clink on the link

and actually READ the article before making comments.

[John Q. Citizen]

21. A link to the story, if you read it your questions will be answered

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1361755,00.html

[Swamp Rat]

8. Israel is coming full-circle

Reminds me of Nazi concentration camps... so do the more HORRIBLE acts that they in the IDF commit.

[bluedonkey]

23. Well,well

I'm just glad something can still outrage Israelies!

Their government has become like the Nazis a long time ago and also lost any credibility a long time ago.

[LeChevalier]

28. Whoa-ho boy

Slow down there with the whole Nazi thing, the Nazis exterminated millions of people, suppressed dissent, murdered their political enemies and tried to conquor the world. Israelis have killed many Palesinians, Palestinians have killed many Israelis, and for those of you who HAVE read the entire article, you will notice that the harshest criticism of this event came from IDF ARMY RADIO. Okay, if Israel is a Nazi regime, it's a pretty sloppy one if it allows ARMY RADIO to criticise the troops, their commanders, and the government.
+2¢

Oh and Mods, could you all move this thing to the Israel/Palestine forum thingy? It's nice to display a united front in the main news column ;)
Thanks a bunch.

[Voltaire99]

25. How awful to wake up and discover...

...why the civilized world holds your armed thugs in such contempt.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeChevalier]

31. LOL

Okay, this might get me banninated or whatnot cause we can't throw around accusations of anti-semitism, but seriously, that's the same anti-Jewish slander that's been thrown around for hundreds of years, that Jews control the government, et-al. Link please, forgive me if I don't take it for granted that Sharon actually said that. Oh, and f*ck Sharon. :puke: F*ck him and everything he does. I hate that schmuk. Carry on.

[i_got_2_get_away]

34. It's Not...

Ant=semitic because I'm aiming at a person and a regime, sorry, administration that is supporting the killing of a race which is humane no matter what. I could be talking about Bush.

It just happens to be Sharon. I cant say all Jews support Sharon's road to carnage.

[LeChevalier]

35. Again

Link please? The Sharon quote. Thanks. And yes, saying the Jews control the US govt. is anti-semitic. What you said in your last post was not, because it was... mostly genuine criticism of Sharon and his policies. Please consider the differences between the two. Gracias.

[ixat]

41. uhm...

Well, maybe I'm a bad liberal for misdirecting my outrage on this, but I can't feel too angry at the individual soldiers. If we learned anything in Iraq (and Vietnam, and....), it's that such is the nature of war that it forces (more or less) good people to start doing evil things, which is precisely why one should avoid war if at all possible, which is precisely why certain people (who shall remain unnamed) who are so eager to embark on gallivanting military adventures are stupid, evil or both.

Any country that has been in an on and off conflict for 30 years like Israel has cannot avoid damage to its collective psyche. That's why they should do whatever they can to resolve the situation and gain peace - for in this war, they stand to lose their souls. Frankly, Israelis as a society have my deep respect for the fact that so many of them still care.

[GoBlue]

42. The Holocaust is the Holy Grail?

Yoram Kaniuk, author of a book about a Jewish violinist forced to play for a concentration camp commander, wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper that the soldiers responsible should be put on trial "not for abusing Arabs but for disgracing the Holocaust".

[lebkuchen]

46. If you go to Dachau, you will see photos of

the Nazis making Jews play happy music while other Jews were pulled in wagons to the gallows.

[LeChevalier]

48. True... that did indeed happen

But in relation to this article... *scans photo for gallows/gas chamers*
Didn't find any, I'm afraid, although yes, this certainly does evoke shadows of the Holcaust.

[tinnypriv]

52. Yet the same people are *not* outraged about forcing Arabs to drink urine

As recently detailed in the Hebrew press, probably because that doesn't evoke "cries of conscience" (as it wasn't in a movie).

The story, which should be well known, is that a group of IDF soldiers put "three chits" into a box, and forced a Palestinian to pick one. The options were:

1. Broken arm.
2. Broken leg.
3. Drink of urine.

Then come the horrifying consequences. Called a "sadistic roulette" even by experienced territories watchers.

Try and find that in the "far-left" Guardian. Or any protest outside of Israel.

[flying_blind]

53. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Israel is the largest recipient of US. aid in the entire world. It receives more aid than that given to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean, put together.

Israel receives over $10 million dollars per day from the United States, and there is evidence that the total figure is closer to $15 million a day. Yet this information is almost never printed in American newspapers. Coverage of the Middle East in general, and of Israel in particular, virtually never reports this enormous American connection with this region.

Empowered by American money, Israel is occupying land that does not belong to it, is breaking numerous international laws and conventions of which it is a signatory, and is promulgating policies of brutality that have been condemned by the United Nations, the European Union, the National Council of Churches, Amnesty International, the International Red Cross, and numerous other international bodies. This truth is also rarely reported.

Through the money and weaponry provided by the United States, Israel is imposing an ethnically discriminatory nation on land that was previously multicultural. There is ethnic and religious discrimination inherent in its national identity, and a doctrine of the supremacy of one group over all others permeates its political, financial, and military policies. This also is virtually never reported.

[Moderator]

55. Locking--LBN rules

7. Discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is not permitted in the Latest Breaking News forum, and instead must be posted in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum. If, however, the news item is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, you may post it in the Latest Breaking News forum.