Police, fire departments see shortages across USA

[maddezmom]

Mayor Jane Campbell calls police and firefighters part of the nation's "domestic army" - the troops who will be called upon to respond to the next terrorist attack. But in Cleveland and many other financially troubled cities, the ranks of those first responders are thinning.



At least two-thirds of the nation's fire departments are understaffed, according to the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), which sets firefighting codes and standards. The shortage is worst in rural volunteer departments that have trouble recruiting new members. But many big and medium-size cities that are more likely to be terrorist targets are also short-handed.


Some, including New York, have had to close fire stations; others, such as Houston, have had temporary closures. In many cities, response times are slower, and trucks go out with too few firefighters.


That can have a real impact. Investigators cited many factors that contributed to the deaths of 100 people in a West Warwick, R.I., nightclub fire last year. But a report commissioned by the state noted that the five firetrucks at the scene arrived with only two firefighters each - half the number recommended by the NFPA - and video showed delays in getting hoses turned on

more: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&ncid=716&e=21&u=/usatoday/20041129/ts_usatoday/policefiredepartmentsseeshortagesacrossusa

[underpants]

1. Safer huh?

:grr:

[da_chimperor]

2. Yep folks, we're safter because of dubya. The eagle is soaring!

:puke:

[elehhhhna]

3. That's not counting the guys on leave of abscence to work for Halliburton.

Our town's being sued for denying an officer a one-year leave to go it Iraq as a private contractor because we've already got a few there already...voluntarily working for Halliburton/KBR.

[el_gato]

4. Cops always claim to be "understaffed"

they view themselves as an occuppying army and the citizens as the enemy.

[Bridget Burke]

6. Gosh, you're so radical.

I'm impressed.

[theshadow]

11. There are more than 546,000....

.... officers in the US at almost 17,000 agencies. Most of them are just men and women working their shifts, trying to do a good job for their residents and not killed or hurt in the process.

[el_gato]

12. how quaint

[colonel odis]

13. tell that to the underpaid, overworked cop who comes to your house

after some dirtball's broken in and cleaned you out. tell the cop that pulls your ass out of a car wreck that he views you as "the enemy."

geez.....

[el_gato]

14. you don't have a clue

The institution of policing was created by the incipient corporate class to protect them while they set about recreating the structure of our society.

Individual police are just like soldiers in Iraq, some joined with
good intentions but they are being used to enact an agenda that is
for the benefit of those in power. The soldiers in Iraq are not
"dying for our freedom" and the same goes for the police.
Those who control the levers of power, including the police, don't give a rats ass about you or your safety.

Yeah, there's a few out there who actually believe they are working
for the good of thier community but that is not why the institution of
policing exists.

[theshadow]

16. Let's have a few more slogans...

....like "Imperialist lacky" and "running dog of the bougeois" to contrast with the ones the Wing-Nuts use against us. I didn't know there was an "incipient corporate class" in 1801, when Boston put night watchmen out.

[el_gato]

18. well maybe you ought to do a little research before you spout off

history will teach you lots of things:

The merchant class emerged from the control of commerce which
resulted in the death of the fuedal system in Europe. It was
those who represented the interests of the merchant class that
called for the creation of policing as a institution. Why?
Because people where intentionally disenfranchised by having their
land taken away along with a great push to concentrate populations in cities where they could be forced into factories. This change was faced with massive resistence which was seen as a threat to the interest of the merchant class.

The institution of policing here in the U.S. has two origins:
1. In the north it was a direct export of the same model used
in European cities.
2. In the south policing rose from something called Slave Patrols,
in which white men were required to maintain patrols so as to stave
off slave revolts, a la Haiti.

Like I said you are welcome to research the subject yourself.

[theshadow]

21. The American model...

... was based on Robert Peel's system in London, ca. 1840, so by your concrete conclusions that means the English were just as corrupt. The night watch and the "hue and cry", were all ways for urban dwellers to protect themselves. The English sheriffs were first created and paid for by rural residents themselves, around the 9th century, for protection against bandits.

If the police are going to be condemned because some have been corrupt or their origins are questionable, then all of us Dem's must be racist because our party was pro-slavery in the 1850's. We can find corrupt history in any institution if we look hard enough. Go ahead and hate cops because they mistreated you, or you don't like authority, or whatever reason you want. Just don't disguise it with this ideological stew.

[el_gato]

22. Two things

In the U.K. the first paid force was the Bow Street Runners which protected merchant's goods being shipped into the city. The Dock Police, whose duty it was to protect the West Indian sugar merchants, was the first patrolling force to recieve statutory legitimization in 1800. Peel's establishment of the London Metropolitan Police was not until 1829. So your history is a bit shoddy. Of course, it is no accident that Robert Peel was the child of a wealthy cotton manufacturer.

Now as far as your lame assumptions as to my motivations, you are just
engaging in a typical game of attack the messenger when you don't like
the message. This is a typical ploy used by people with weak minds. I
suggest you don't drag down the quality of discourse on DU with this
method of attack.

[theshadow]

27. So anyone not a peasant can't be trusted...

...and anything he creates is probably corrupt? You keep reverting back to these conclusions based on class and social status. Peel's family had money, so what?

I'll take your other comments under advisement.

[el_gato]

28. you are jumping to conclusions

My original statement is that the institution of policing was created to protect and serve the merchant class, which today is better referred to as the corporate elite. You can see countless examples of the police engaging in political activities today. In practically every city in the U.S. during the build up to the recent invasion of Iraq, cops were making efforts to infiltrate groups who were working to stop this war. Their sole aim was/is to eliminate political opposition to the desires of the ruling class. Time and again, people act shocked when the cops start smashing the heads of people who are questioning those in power but they shouldn't be shocked at all since that is why they exist, i.e. to protect the rich and powerful.

If what I am saying bothers you so be it but don't try to put words in my mouth. Maybe that is the only way you can deal with it. I don't care. In your most recent post, you are making an effort to limit the frame of reference of the discussion so as to avoid the broader implications.

[truth2power]

34. I agree, el gato. Here's my experience...

About 6 or 7 years ago, when the TABD (Trans Atlantic Business Dialog, an arm of the WTO) met in Cincinnati, thousands turned out, over the course of several days, to protest.

My friend and I, after having participated in a protest, attended a prayer service at a Catholic church. At the conlcusion of the service it was announced that anyone who desired was welcome to take up a silent vigil across the street from the hotel where the "corporate elite", including the CEO of Chiquita Brands, were staying. They, of course, were not there, as they were being sumptiously wined and dined at another venue. We knew, though, that they would be returning to the hotel in short order, so we elected to stand silently across the street, armed with the most fearsome of weapons -- cardboard signs sans sticks, and candles.

It was bitterly cold and not moving about made it seem even more so. I'm not very tolerant of the cold, but I doggedly stuck it out,while going, in my mind, to somewhere warm while observing the action around me!

There were only about a dozen of us. Across the street about 50 police in full riot gear,faced us. Shortly, a police bus arrived and disgorged at least another 50 officers, who also lined up, facing us.

At one point, about two dozen of the officers qued up and marched in lock step across the street, then directly behind us and across the street again. I can think of no other reason for this little demonstration than as an intimidation tactic.

The point of all this is that I had an "aha" moment on that street corner over the course of an hour of observing. It came to me that the police are there to protect those who perpetrate violence from those who are seeking peace.

I said just this to a pod person some weeks later. She looked at me like I had just sprouted another head. "Violence?" she said. She just didn't get it. You don't have to bust someone in the face to perpetrate violence against them. There is violence of the spirit, also.

And yes, Gato, the police serve, first and last, the corporate elite. Everything else is just bread and circuses. :-(

[theshadow]

35. Police serve...

... the people. Now before you guffaw, remember the degree of local control of police that we have here. From small towns to big cities, if you don't like what the police do you deal with the local police & fire commission. There is no regional or provincial or national authority. A community of 300 people can have their own police department, answerable to those residents.

Look, I'm not saying that there isn't disenfranchisement of minorities which limits this power in some communities. I'm not saying that all police tactics, including what you faced, are proper. As I've written in DU before, there isn't going to be perfection. But that's a LONG way from concluding that the police are these tools of oppression, controlled by puppet-masters with all of these agendas. When I was a kid during Viet Nam, the police assumed everyone with long hair was a commie hippie. The college students assumed all the cops were fascist pigs. Neither was accurate then, and it's just as wrong to make assumptions now.

Fifty-two officers were slain in 2003 for no other reason than they were cops. I don't think they started their shifts thinking how they were going to benefit their "corporate elite" bosses.

[truth2power]

36. You do make some good points

about local control. It was 4 or 5 months after the TABD came to town that there was the incident where a cop shot and killed a young black man who turned out to have some outstanding traffic citations but not much else. I'm sorry, the young man's name escapes me at the moment. That resulted in riots in the downtown Cincinnati area. I'm sure you heard about it. It was on the National news for some time. After that there were hearings and commissions and meetings that went on for months. The community really held the police department's feet to the fire.

It was framed as a racial issue,though, and at the time I thought that the Cincinnati police were out of control and it didn't matter if you were a person of color or not. This because of my experience during the TABD protests.

I felt that the Cincinnati police did not distinguish themselves during that weekend. I heard from good authority that one of the tactics they used was to herd people into a small area, tell them they had to leave and then not allow them egress. I've heard that used in other cities also. Never been able to figure that one out.

Also, someone lent me an amateur videotape taken during the protests and I saw some, what I would consider pretty appalling behavior by the police. I saw a young couple standing on the sidewalk and an officer comes into the frame and grabs the man by the coat collar and drags him off camera. The woman is just standing, kind of transfixed, not shaking her fist or saying anything, and the officer comes back into the frame and sprays her with a cannister of pepper spray(?). Unconscionable, IMO.

You can go into the City anytime and talk to the police on the beat and they're friendly, helpful etc. But when the "elite" feel afflicted (and that can be by ordinary folks just exercising their cvil rights) the police get nasty real quick! And they react with force that's way out of proportion to the reality of the threat.

Thus my feeling that the wealthy elite are protected to a much greater extent than us peasants.

[theshadow]

39. A lot of the problems you raised...

... can be traced to bad training and/or weak administration. Controlling a crowd is a complex task, and a lot of departments haven't trained their officers on how to do it, opening the door for problems. The same is true for training officers to differentiate between legal and illegal forms of protest. I've also noticed the willingness that some chiefs have to go along with tactics that stifle free expression. I would have told the Secret Service to pound sand if they wanted officers to move protesters out of a public area, as was done during the campaign.

Thanks for the polite reply. This was an enjoyable exchange.

[el_gato]

40. Sadly your sanguine views don't comform to reality

I wish they did but they don't.

[theshadow]

46. Okay, fine.

Why don't you enlighten me and explain how you would change the policing system if you had the power.

[theshadow]

48. Well?

You were quick to insult me and question my intelligence because I didn't agree with you. Let's have the benefit of your wisdom... or can you only criticize?

[el_gato]

43. If you honestly think that action described by truth2power is a result of

a few bad cops you are seriously in denial. They were following orders.

[colonel odis]

25. you're right. i don't have a clue. all policemen are pigs. they're just

a tool of The Man. and they're, like, trying to keep us all down, man. hey, cool dennis hopper "easy rider" jacket.

[el_gato]

26. must be easier for you to talk shit than trying to discuss anything

A rather pathetic response. Please try harder.

[colonel odis]

29. actually, discussing things is much easier.

when there's someone worth having a discussion with.

then there are people like you.

[el_gato]

41. Every posts you've made has been devoid of content

perhaps you could spend some time educating yourself so that you
may have something informative to say.

[w4rma]

38. Good luck trying to get anyone to believe that. Thats a bunch of BS (nt)

[el_gato]

44. how cute

[el_gato]

15. tell that to citizens who have had the shit beat out of them for

merely expressing thier views

And why do they insist on using names like "Charlie Sector" when discussing neighborhoods.

I expected a reactionary reponse because people hate hearing that
their "protectors" don't have thier best interest at heart. It causes
them to question thier most basic assumptions.

I guess those mass roundups of people in NYC during the RNC was for our safety? :eyes:

[One_Life_To_Give]

5. Funding Req.

As my former Chief used to say. They (the municipality) don't have to fund you in accordance with the risk. But in accordance with the typical service required.
Which in general means the local department is setup to handle a room and contents fire.

The economics are, tis cheaper to rebuild from the occasional larger incident, than to constantly protect against it.

[TahitiNut]

7. Minimum FIre Department staffing was a referendum here ...

... in the General Election. The people voted for a minimum number of professionally trained, full-time firefighters based on population. It passed.

It's interesting. "Managing" a budget seems easy to the voters when they can just vote on simple, visceral staffing issues - and then vote against taxes, of course. :eyes:

[Rose Siding]

8. The FDNY endorsed Bush.

They slapped his back and welcomed him at the stations that haven't closed yet. Fools in the Boston PD picketed Dem events, threatening even to picket the convention, knowing that Dems wouldn't cross their lines.

Too much irony. This as good money is poured after bad to build an Iraqi police force which, there is reason to believe, will operate with as much treachery as the regime under Saddam- barring (we can ONLY hope) the mass deaths facilitated by our own power structure.

Too much irony.

[RPM]

9. domestic army?

Fascism is on the march - let the eagle soar....

[Spinzonner]

10. The "No Public Servant Left Behind" policy in action

[devilgrrl]

17. Interesting in that cops & firemen seem to always vote GOP.

Yet another group that votes against their own best interests.

[MountainLaurel]

19. Not necessarily

Here in NoVA, there were Firefighters for Kerry signs near many of the stations.

[L.A.dweller]

30. The Union of Fire Fighter's backed Kerry

and so did the Police, right?

How bush won the election is BEYOND me.

[madison2000]

24. There were firefighter groups from all over WI

at the Kerry rally in Madison. I've heard the ones in NY closest to Ground Zero really hate Bush.

[annarbor]

32. I've been a cop for 14 years....

And I voted for Kerry!
I am black, female and a cop that has done nothing more than served those in need...no matter what their race, religion, social class etc. I have never harmed a single soul and never would. I have never been asked to obey an order that was immoral and if told to do so, I would immediately disobey that order and find a new career...period.

We are not all a bunch of "knuckle dragging" robots! There are many decent cops out there. I am so sorry you've never met one.

Ann Arbor

[FreeCajun]

20. A smaller government, indeed!

And less federal spending, too!

[madison2000]

23. That's Bush homeland security for you.

[Bombero1956]

31. I have posted on this subject before

In the most recent election we had "Firefighters for Kerry" buttons and signs all over the place.Many wore t-shirts to rallies we held when the governor appointed a financial control board to oversee my city's budget and targeted collective bargaining and union contracts. Most of the members of my local knew that the IAFF endorsed and campaigned for Kerry long ago and yet I know that most of them voted for Bush. This is enough to send me into a rage because they most likely voted for him on a single issue that trumped their own best interest. I don't care if it was a pro military mind set or a pro gun agenda but the end speaks for itself. As I sit in my office overlooking the parking lot at our fire headquarters, I see 2 pick ups with IAFF stickers right next to Bush/Chenney stickers, go figure. Colonel Sanders has managed to get the chickens to vote for him.

[MisterP]

33. so not only will the Führer Chimp starve police and fire forces,

he'll laugh as they run into the next flaming inferno his worthless security plans cause and then stand on their ashes and call for more killing in far-off places--in their name, of course

[Deja Q]

37. Well, taxes were cut so Scrooge McCEO could have a little more money.

Wouldn't it be ironic if Scrooge needed police or fire help and didn't get it?

Thanks for cutting federal funding, Bush.

Thanks for cutting state funding instead of a miniscule tax increase for the wealthiest of the wealthy who get their wealth from us, people overseas, or both.

[PurityOfEssence]

42. Maybe we can have some faith-based safety services

Perhaps we could conjure some flood waters to put out fires, call in some godly lightning to smite criminals, loose the hounds of hell on various wrongdoers, and have god huff and puff and blow them dang fires out.

Science is mere piffle anyway, and since our great leader is the earthly embodiment of the Witchy Man himself, we should be able to access these righteous tools. After all, were shockingly virtuous; I know that because we say we are.

Time to step up to the plate.

[theHandpuppet]

45. Which made this sighting even more bizarre!

On election night one of the networks was covering the lines at a Cleveland precinct and one guy in particular stood out -- a big, young, muscular guy wearing a "Firefighters For Bush" tee shirt. I noticed it right away because 1) you're not supposed to wear any kind of partisan stuff inside a polling place and 2) why would any firefighter in his or her right mind proudly proclaim they were voting for Bush -- in Cleveland of all places.

[indepat]

47. With so many other pressing priorities, money is not available to staff

and equip our corps of first-responders.