Hospital in Germany Treats 21,000 GIs

[maddezmom]

BERLIN - About 21,000 American soldiers, most of them from units sent to Iraq (news - web sites), have been treated at the biggest U.S. military hospital outside the United States since the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan (news - web sites) in late 2001, the hospital said Monday.



The Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany handles many U.S. combat casualties, but it did not break down the figure into battlefield and noncombat patients.


Landstuhl doctors treated 17,878 U.S. soldiers from Iraq and 3,085 from Afghanistan through Sunday, hospital spokeswoman Marie Shaw told The Associated Press.


The patients were treated for anything from gunshot wounds to noncombat ailments such as kidney stones, she said.

more: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=1&u=/ap/20041129/ap_on_re_mi_ea/germany_us_casualties

[arcane1]

1. that's TWENTY-ONE THOUSAND!!!!!!

is it STILL worth it????

I certainly hope there is a conservative group monitoring these injured troops, ready to deny a purple heart to any who are not "sufficiently" injured to receive one :mad:

[Vandegraff]

2. Twenty-one thousand, but . . .

That's distributed over three years, and it's noted that they've treated "non-combat ailments" as well, without breaking the total number down to detail how many were combat and how many were non-combat.

[Just Me]

3. Oh, whew,...I feel so much better, now.

Thank you kindly for that clarification. B-)

[Mandate My Ass]

4. We've been in Iraq three years? Wow!

:crazy:

Injured is injured, dead is dead no matter whether it was a combat or non-combat situation.

Welcome to DU, the reality-based community.

[maddezmom]

6. 3,085 from Afghanistan is for 3 yrs

17,878 is Iraq and IIRC we haven't been there for 3 yrs. :shrug:

[arcane1]

7. oh, well in that case, 20,000 is perfectly ok with me

we have plenty more :eyes:

[merh]

19. Yeah, that damned dehydration and those silly sun strokes

suffered in the desert of iraq are not combat related, so they shouldn't count. Just like those silly auto accidents because the equipment is faulty and old, those shouldn't be counted.

What about the illness due to depleted uranium or those kooky anthrax vacinations? Nah, they don't count!

Only count the ones shot or that have been hit by a bomb!!!

Yeah, you have so much to learn. Sorry, don't think I can welcome you. :argh:

[anarchy1999]

21. Ditto, merh.

Thanks for typing it all out for me.

[merh]

27. The old saying was ignorance is bliss

But in this day and age, ignorance is dangerous!

God help me, but I can't get over what folks will believe just because it came from the government! Or, how they can justify 1,000 wounded let alone 21,000 or 1200 plus deaths or the deaths of anywhere from 30,000 to 100,000 iraqi civilians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:argh: :nuke:

BTW You are welcome ;-)

[anarchy1999]

233. Just went through this thread. Unbelievable! merh and moonbeam

valient effort, I think the mods are asleep tonight. I would suggest to "Winter Ranger" he read "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler. Look it up Winter, if you are still around.

Once again, kudos to all and sorry, so sorry for you "Winter Ranger".

[merh]

241. I have calmed down alot since last night!

GI joe really bugged the crap out of me, what is scary is he thinks he is right! Ignorance, denial, bigotry -- such destructive conditions/states.

[Vandegraff]

28. I try not to go where I'm not welcome, so . . .

Yeah, you have so much to learn. Sorry, don't think I can welcome you.
---------
Thanks for the kind greeting and informative discourse. I'll keep looking for a discussion forum where I can enjoy conversing with other liberal-minded folk in a more welcoming environment. Sorry that I've irritated.

[merh]

32. Don't post crap that tries to excuse the horrors of this war!

There is no justification for the war, there is no justification or excuse for the wounded, there is no justification or excuse for the dead! I don't care what nationality the wounded are or the were dead were, they did not deserve to be wounded or die BECAUSE THIS IS AN ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL OCCUPATION, just as the invasion and shock and awe were illegal and immoral.

I don't believe hunting in baited fields is appropriate, shooting fish in a barrell is wrong and using explosives to fish is against the law - THIS MILITARY ACTION IS WRONG.

If you want a warm, fuzzy liberal welcome and liberal discussion, then come with liberal thoughts and information. We didn't drink the kool aide and we don't believe everything that is told to us by the evil admin that is ruining our nation.

One death or one wounded in the Iraqi military action is one too many!

[BUSHOUT]

80. How often do we see a rightwing disruptor claim to be "liberal"?

Good riddence to you.

[merh]

199. FYI - they are also claiming to be progressive!

:puke: Have you seen the number of registered posters. 59600 plus ealier this afternoon it was 59550 or so. Fifty newbies in one night! They are out and about!

[Mandate My Ass]

201. Certain topics they cannot resist

Vote fraud, Michael Moore, Iraq casualties, war crimes, guns, Hillary Clinton (Klintoon).... on and on. Their little pin heads can't take it and they explode all over these forums.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

Oh well

that's SUCH a relief! ONLY 21,000! That's good, because my limit is around 50,000 so it's good to see we're still under my personal limit.

/end sarcasm

[indepat]

50. A casualty is a casualty is a casualty when in a combat zone for

the suffering and injuries hurt just as much and dead is dead IMHO.

[greatauntoftriplets]

86. Oh, yeah....not a biggie that VA hospitals in the US are full of injured..

from Iraq. A friend works in one. They are packed to the gills. How many are PTSD??? That is my friend's specialty.

[LynnTheDem]

144. 8458 WIA that the military admits to

EIGHT THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY EIGHT WOUNDED IN ACTION FOR A PACK OF BULLSHIT.

And that only includes the wounded up until November 9th; November is the 2nd highest death toll month since the invasion began. Estimate; add another 600 wounded for November. Over 9000 American men, women & teenagers missing eyes, brains, limbs for bush's total bullshit.

So go ahead and marginalize and trivialize that number.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

176. Vandegraff??? Oh, Vandegraff?

Hello?

[tom II]

5. Al Jazeera had a FIELD DAY with this.

Al Jazeera is reporting what this guy Murray wrote, which was 20,802 injured in IRAQ fighting.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/66A82950-2E99-439A-AD90-8DBFD862F715.htm

The enemy in Iraq is saying they are killing thousands of Americans and that we are lying about it. Foolish statements by foolish journalists like the guy that wrote the article quoted by Al Jazeera do not help.

It is nice that FINALLY some journalists get around to reporting the 21,000 include Afganistan and non combatent injuries and illnesses!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

8. Injuries from a jeep accident are still injuries that the soldier wouldn't

have if he or she were home. Illnesses from dehydration and bad food are ilnesses that these kids wouldn't have if they were home.

I guess you can't quite admit that the war was wrong. That's how YOU support the troops.

[tom II]

9. This remark was not called for.

"Of the 6,497 nonhostile injuries suffered in Iraq through Oct. 29, 3,897 were suffered by active duty soldiers, while 2,600 were suffered by reserves. Among the nonhostile injuries or illnesses, according to the Defense Department: 14 percent required surgery; 12 percent were psychiatric; 10 percent were neurological; 7 percent were gynecological; 7 percent were cardiac; 7 percent were urological; 6 percent were gastrointerological; and 37 percent were labeled "assorted other," which could include accidents, heat stroke, and other injuries."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2003/11/05/injury_rate_for_reservists_on_rise/


I have a son in the Air Force.

He says the vast majority in the Air Force believe the war in Iraq is worth the cost.

I trust his (and their)judgement more than yours.

End of issue.

[Mandate My Ass]

11. It's far from the end of the issue

Very far.

"...14 percent required surgery; 12 percent were psychiatric; 10 percent were neurological; 7 percent were gynecological; 7 percent were cardiac; 7 percent were urological; 6 percent were gastrointerological; and 37 percent were labeled "assorted other," which could include accidents, heat stroke, and other injuries."

If it isn't a bullet from an "insurgent's" gun it doesn't count?

Good luck to your son but I don't agree with you or him and I won't be told that the end of a discussion because you say so.

[NNN0LHI]

12. Its not the "End of issue."

Just because someone in their own mind thinks what they are doing is the right thing does not make it so. My opinion is that having American soldiers over in Iraq killing Iraqis is making things more dangerous over here for me and my family. So we are at an impasse.

Don

[ninkasi]

31. I agree, Don

There was never any valid reason to invade Iraq. I don't consider the greed of Bush's cronies, or the Shrub's arrogance are reasons enough to bring such death and destruction to Iraq, or the death and injuries our troops are enduring.

In the end, this thinly veiled excuse to steal Iraq's oil is making most of the world vastly unsafer. Iraq will be destroyed, and so will we. No money for anything but the coffers of Halliburton, and whoever else is profiting from this tragedy.

[buddhamama]

13. "...vast majority..."

heh? The Air Force is quite large. How is it exactly that your son knows the opinion of the vast majority?

I have friends in the service who would disagree with you and your son. End of Issue, Indeed.

[TahitiNut]

14. More like a "half-vast" majority.

The Air Farce is famous for rampant wartime psychopatriotism when the opposition has absolutely no air power. There's a huge difference between bombing from 30,000' and risking your ass as a tunnel rat or grunt, not the least of which is actually seeing what you've done.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

16. My nephews and cousin are in the army

morale is not good among the grunts.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

39. I'm SO glad you said that.

My husband was a front line grunt and no offense to any airmen, but it's VERY different.

[TahitiNut]

132. Yes, it is different. And then some.

There are both assholes and decent people in all branches of service. At the same time, some people in the military engaged in the most asymmetical combat seem to lose all perspective. It has been my own experience that bomber crews (including pilots, of course) are among the most susceptible to this loss of perspective, particularly in Vietnam and post-Vietnam 'conflicts' where our adversaries (victims?) have had no offensive and virtually no defensive capability in the air.

There seems to be a perverse kind of "bully mentality" in some cases - not willing to suffer even a bloody nose while inflicting critical injuries on some victim. They call it "honor"? Riiight. :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

15. I have two nephews in Iraq, a first cousin there, and my family's

service goes back to the Revolutionary War. My dad was in Korea, an Uncle died in Vietnam and two made it back with psychological problems. My nephews are not happy in Iraq, nor are their buddies. But they realize they have a job to do. I thank your son for his service.


Just because you disagree with the war's premise, it does not mean that YOU DON'T SUPPORT THE TROOPS. That meme is typical freeper drivel.

I put together care packages for the troops, send them books and volunteer in their behalf. What do YOU DO aside from spread your BS about 'intelligent design' and Democrats don't support troops on message boards?

[Just Me]

48. Hi Kathy. I'll bet your military family accepts our support.

I'll bet they are whole and distinguish between our support for their courage while we simulataneously fight for a healthy democratic experiment here at home.

I send you, your military familial members and all troops a great big :hug:

I also acknowledge and respect your courageous passion for democracy.

[anarchy1999]

22. I'm sorry, but for you to type "end of issue" while so new to posting

here baffles me. "END OF ISSUE"! I don't think so.

[daleo]

25. The 6497 number doesn't relate to the other article about Germany

This is a separate article, so it doesn't mean that 6500 of the 20000 casualties being treated in Germany were non-combat.

[Just Me]

29. I fight for you and your son, too.

I fight for the freedom to hold a difference of opinion from our leadership.

I fight for transparency and accountability of elected officials.

I fight for my people's right to know the true policies of those who are spending American dollars and lives.

I fight against those who would suppress the wheels of democracy here at home.

I fight against those who manipulate the loyalty and trust of my people.

I fight against those right-wing despots who impose/slash/burn fundamental constitutional "freedoms" our people have earned, EARNED.

So, while I respect you and your son for being the kind of "warriors" to which you are committed,...I also expect respect for being the kind of "warrior" to I and millions of others are committed.

That being said,...I send my sincere hopes to both of you.

[merh]

34. Where is your son serving in the Air Force?

Just curious (given that at present the AF & navy are considered the safe branches)!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

38. Ha!

End of the issue, eh?

So you say.

Sorry your son is having to serve in a nasty, immoral, unjustified war.

Answer me just one question:

1. What did the Iraqis do to us?

Seriously, just answer me that ONE question. Also, do you know how many Iraqis have been killed? There aren't official counts, because you know, they don't matter, but estimates range as high as 100,000 - 200,000. How many did Saddam Hussein kill in 10 years?

By the way, 98-99% of Iraqis hate our presence there. So I doubt it matters very much whether you think the "vast majority" of the Air Force supports the war. (Which I highly doubt, by the way.) As long as we are there as an occupying force, we are an IRRITANT and we will continue to be shot at and killed.

[Nostradamus]

47. End of illegal occupation and warcrimes is the issue

[merh]

130. Hey Nostradamus, welcome to DU!

Any predictions you wish to share with us? :shrug:

On second thought, I probably don't want to know, do I?

Welcome :hi:

[Sterling]

56. "End of issue." too funny

I guess you have spoken so that is obviously the last word, hah hah.

"I have a son in the Air Force.

He says the vast majority in the Air Force believe the war in Iraq is worth the cost."

Your son sounds like someone in the air force, not on the ground. He also sounds ill informed but that is a seperate issue which I am sure you can settle for us with one post and be done with it. lol.

[psychopomp]

83. There are only seven hostile fatalities from USAF

and thirteen total according to the Pentagon. That may affect the way the men and women in the USAF view the war.

[SmokingJacket]

92. When I'm paying for it, my opinion counts. END of story. n/t

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

115. Best. Response. Yet.

[They_LIHOP]

97. My experience shows me that only Freeps...

say things like "end of issue" when they have not, in fact, engaged in anything APPROACHING an honest debate on a subject upon which they are making some absolute declaration about 'how it is'.

"End of Story", and "a Non-Issue" are the freeps favorite ways of avoiding an argument they know they would lose if they were to actually honestly engage/argue their side.

Not calling you a freep, just lettin' you know - you're sure LOOKING like one if you use these little (arrogant) rhetorical cop-outs...

[Raster]

106. so your son speaks for the "vast majority" of the Air Force?

What a load of shit. I have friends in the Air Force and they say something completely different.

End of Issue? Really, asshole?

[villagechild]

113. vast majority

does that equate to a moral mandate? worth the cost? hardly. end of issue, my ass. it's just the beginning ... 14 permanent bases in Iraq and the world’s largest embassy to oversee the "reshaping" the Middle East.

[LynnTheDem]

152. No the "vast majority" don't support the illegal invasion of Iraq.

And if your son does, he's ignorant. Plain & simple. If you do, you too are ignorant. Plain and simple. Not an insult; just a FACT.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[Just Me]

33. I relish "perspective"! Perhaps the "war on terror" is,...

,...totally misdirected since there have been TWENTY THREE TIMES MORE ACTS OF DOMESTIC TERROR!!!

Yup. Ever since Tim McVey,...we've been tracking all "terrorist" acts and they overwhelming dictate that the "war on terror" should be fought right here in the good ole' USA!!!

Imagine that,...digest those FACTS!!!!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[merh]

41. Them thar terraists are more likely to come to the good ole USofA

now that we have invaded, shocked and awed and continue to occupy a sovereign nation that was one of the most progressive nations in the Middle East.

We have created a thousand Usamas that hate us because we have killed anywhere from 30,000 to 100,000 iraqi civilians for no reason, with no justification. (pssst. Saddam had not ties to Usama or Al Qaeda, there were no WMDs or chemical weapons and we don't have democracy here, how can we teach it over there?)

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[Just Me]

52. Is a corporate-controlled republic your definition of "democracy"?

Just curious.

[merh]

53. Get you head out of your kool aide jug and look around!

They stole the election (AGAIN), there are no checks and balances, they own the judiciary and the justice department --

You just think things look normal - ignorance is no longer bliss, it is very, very dangerous!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[merh]

58. Just a heads up - I have alerted the mods

I think you are on the wrong discussion board.

Yes, they stole the election and the entire nation, not just me and my kooky liberal friends or tinfoil hat wearers :tinfoilhat: will suffer.

Be ready for the horrors that will be GWB for 4 more years. Get ready for more wars and deaths, for the draft and the economy in the crapper, no jobs in the states, education in the toilet, you name it and you will see it!

Believe what the government tells you, everything is hunkie dorie, there is no need for you to join the discussions here. bye, bye

[Just Me]

59. Naw,...let him stay on board.

He chisels our skills.

Really.

Don't chase him away.

[merh]

63. Too late, I don't appreciate the macho, fighting men who spit

their poison at me and think I will believe the crap the government spews just because they do. Idiots spouting lies or justifying the illegal and immoral killings are still idiots, even if they are in the military.

[Dickie Flatt]

95. Maybe he's wrong, but thats no reason to ban him

We can't kick out everyone who doesn't agree with us on every point. How are we going to take back America if we insist on jackbooted conformity from all?

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

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[merh]

119. Anyone that dismisses the deaths of just one soldier or

the deaths of thousands of iraqi citizens cannot be salvaged and mind sets such at that are why we are in the mess we are in.

Feel free to start your own forum that allows the sharing of negative ideas and the regurgiation of our evil admin's lies.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

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[merh]

127. I have read the discussion

You make the deaths and wounded over there sound trivial, you know we lose soldiers here all the time and let me tell you about heat stroke during PT. You mock national guardsmen. You repeat the lies of this admin "better we fight them over there than to fight them", yet you do not bother to tell me why the hell we are over there.

You say you are a soldier, so there are many things you have to justify in your mind to do what you have to do. I understand that, but do not spread the lies, you can believe them, but don't expect me to believe them. But also appreciate that the USofA is wrong. We don't belong there, we keep killing and destroying and maiming. They don't want us there. We use chemical weapons and we torture, yet that is why we "stopped Saddam".

And tell me, what would you do if an army invaded your homeland, invaded your city, blew up your homes, business and church. Would you sit back and let it happen or would you arm yourself to the teeth and defend your way of life and all that you know?

[Name removed]

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

154. Then why don't you come out and post your opinion on it?

You don't.

As for the people cutting off heads, etc, did it occur to you that those are NOT Iraqis but are terrorists who have come across the border into Iraq for the fighting? The borders are NOT secure and haven't been and it's common knowledge terrorists are now there, in large numbers, in Iraq.

So you have Iraqis trying (in vain) to defend their homes and their families, you have Iraqis who HAVE joined up with some more unsavory elements, and you have the terrorists themselves, who WEREN'T in Iraq before, but are now.

Wow, what the heck did those Iraqis thank your unit for last week?

[Mandate My Ass]

160. He's no more a veteran than I am

He has done nothing but dismiss the horrendous casualties on both sides of this immoral invasion. It is telling that he came to this thread to dismiss the dismay of concerned DUers and to propagate the myth that Iraqis feel gratitude for the occupying forces in their country. It would be funny if it weren't such a transparent attempt to whitewash a travesty. He has nothing else to say except that he is a misunderstood progressive. What a crock.

I have veterans in my family going back to WWI, of both political parties, and none of them would ever cavalierly dismiss the deaths of compatriots like this interloper has.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

170. Go ahead then, all of it.

Spill it, dates of service, MOS's, units, deployments, schools, medals and citations, everything. Are you still active duty? How long were you in Iraq? And with what division/unit? What did you do in Iraq?

And you still haven't answered my most basic question: DO you support this war or not?

It's a yes or no question, let's see if you can answer it without obsfucation this time.

And yes you did, you said we had a "morbid fascination with servicemembers deaths" after we expressed dismay at the number dead.

Lemme tell you something, buddy, if this were a legit, just war, servicemember deaths would be one thing. At least they would have died for something. But yeah, I tend to get a BIT bent out of shape over our troops being used as fodder in an immoral, UNJUST war.

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

185. Oh but you have such an aversion to

acknowledging servicemembers deaths in Iraq.

And so you DO support the war in Iraq. Well, guess what? That makes you the only person on this website who does.

Did you read between the lines on that?

And this one:

C Co, then A Co, 1st Bn 5th SFG(A) Ft Campbell May 1996- Dec 2003

Spell it out, what division is this? I'd get my husband to interpret, but he's asleep. 1st Bn 5th of the what? SFG?

Not comfortable saying what you did in Iraq, huh?

When were you discharged, why (was your enlistment up?) and what kind of discharge?

Any Article 15s?

And I have everything I need to know with your answer, that you support the war in Iraq. Thanks for finally answering.

Now. Another question. Who did you vote for on November 2, 2004?

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

196. Oh my GOD,

you are that SAME guy who got tombstoned a while back! THAT'S where I recognize the style of writing. Hey last time you got banned, you NEVER mentioned being a big ol' Special Forces Army guy! Why is that, I wonder?

You voted for yourself huh? You've tried to peddle that before. I guess you forgot. HA! That's actually funny. You even said very much the same thing.

Only last time you had yourself living in Illinois.

Now go ahead, deny it. It's your MO.

[merh]

203. You go Moonbeam_Starlight!

I thought that no one was allowed to leave the service?
Wish you could remember the name of the poster that was banned and has the same MO. Then you could alert the Mods that it appears it is back!

:thumbsup:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

206. Oh I've already done that, no fear.

Anyone who supports the war in Iraq and says they voted for themselves clearly is on the wrong website (he knows he can't say he voted for bush, but he can't bring himself to lie and say he voted for Kerry).

[Name removed]

219. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

221. When did bush attack Kerry's service record?

He always said he should be proud of his service.

For that matter, when did Kerry attack bush's?

Both men's surrogates did that work. Neither of them did.

Sorry that won't float.

[Name removed]

224. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

227. So tell me,

why did you vote for bush?

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

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[merh]

223. Thank you!

There are some posts I need to copy - I couldn't find that link to the DOD trying to charge the wounded for their meals. I think I will have to bookmark this one - who knows when cap'n marvel will return as BJ Honeycutt or something. Have a good nite! Peace

[merh]

242. Its amazing how things change from day to day - seems like

someone is missing today :shrug:

:evilgrin:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

214. You were supposedly at Ft. Benning

(or the guy whose service record this is) at the same time my husband was. I'll have him check this out tomorrow and ask you some questions about this.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

216. What was your rank upon discharge

and again, what was the condition of your discharge?

Also, spell out what each of the citations stand for.

You are comfortable giving out all THAT information, but NOT what you did in Iraq, which is the most germane topic to this thread?

Mmmmmmkay. Sniff, sniff.

[Name removed]

222. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

226. Ha!

You were Special Forces and you expect me to believe all you did was DRIVE AROUND?

Um, yeah, ok.

[Name removed]

229. Deleted message

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[Mandate My Ass]

171. You've done nothing but diminish them

and try and cast doubt on the seriousness of their injuries. Nobody here in the US is facing anything remotely like the dangers that the troops are in Iraq are facing and if you were truly a member of the armed forces who had already lost more close friends in the last year than you will probaly have in your life.. you would never spew the garbage that you have been spewing on this thread.

You've got an obviously empty chamber but you insist on dry firing it to the point of meltdown.

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

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[Mandate My Ass]

187. Tee hee, no it's actually part of my conplan

that I keep in a 7-inch binder the details of which were extracted from prisoners during the interrogations I sat in on. LOL

Keep the laughs coming, Colonel Flagg!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

189. Nice copying job of someone's service

record he did, eh?

[Mandate My Ass]

191. Yes while sitting in his parents' basement

playing super secret agent green beret on the computer machine.

Tango Delta Foxtrot, Do you read?...wheeeeeeee!

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

198. Why would "your" service record

sound scary to me?

Mind expounding on this AKO you keep mentioning?

Is that where you found this service record? Wouldn't I need to have your name, SS # and other neat shit like that? Mind stating those here, Mr. Special Forces Sniper Dude?

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

204. And your full name would be?

I mean if you are inviting me to check this and see if you have your story straight, I need your name, as you said.

Then how do I go about verifying that the name and service record you supplied me with really is YOU, the person posting?

So, again, name?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

190. Go ahead buddy,

keeeeep talking. LOL!

You said we have a morbid fascination to servicemembers' deaths. Those were YOUR words. How can dismay over servicemembers' deaths be interpreted as morbid fascination? Do you not support the troops? Are we not allowed to be dismayed over their deaths? Or maybe only YOU are?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

169. Neither would the veterans in my family.

Including my husband. I read aloud some of this guy's posts to him and he rolled his eyes half the time and said "crock of shit" the other half.

I also find it telling he won't come out and say whether he supports this war or not.

He accuses us of having a morbid fascination with servicemember's deaths, which tells me he has a total lack of interest in them. Which makes me seriously fucking wonder about him.

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

188. Who did you vote for

on November 2 of this year and why did you vote for that person?

[anarchy1999]

234. "Beofre" I make broad statements as to injuries, casualties and etc,

I wish you and yours all well. You've offended just about everyone I hold dear and you continue on. I will go off now and say you have offended me, personally. You, dear sir/madam are way out of line. you have not a clue and I hope soon, that the mods on this board, eliminate you soon.

Best wishes to you and yours in this "holiday season". I can't really believe all you have had to say tonight. You need help. Try "Taming my Gremlins", by Richard D. Carson, it might help you.

[Dickie Flatt]

122. You won't get anywhere if you don't try.

[Crunchy Frog]

193. If you think that this board is

some sort of paragon of jackbooted conformity, then you've sure been reading a different one than I have. We don't let right wingers spew right wing talking points on here, that's the only conformity that's insisted on.

Alot of them do anyway, managing to get it through just beneath the radar of the mods.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

197. Good post.

You put it very well.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

66. There is hard evidence that the election was stolen in 2000

wait and see how the recounts go.

Why are you here anyway? The rules of this board state that this is a forum for Democrats and other Progressives. You are obviously neither.

[Name removed]

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

72. Of course they can, but you're ignoring facts

if you don't think there was widespread disenfranchisement and fraud in Florida in 2000, you have reading comprehension problems.

And I doubt you're a progressive. :eyes:

[Dickie Flatt]

91. IMO it was serious business in 2000. But now, I'm leaning toward Kool-Aid

[Cheswick2.0]

102. denial

it's not pretty

[Name removed]

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[name not needed]

107. What do you want on your tombstone?

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

116. Define the difference, with examples if you can,

between "KoolAid-esque" and "fringe."

[Name removed]

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

129. Ah, so you would be....

KoolAid, right?

[merh]

134. Yo capt marvel

Since you are such a DU fan, read the research threads and you will see that DUers do their own research and look at the facts. We do not follow like cattle to the slaughter, we think for ourselves. Because we think for ourselves and research the issues, we know the election was stolen. You, on the other hand, believe what Faux news or the other media outlets tell you.

Hey do you know that the counting of the votes in Ohio has not yet been completed? How can you declare that anyone won the state until the votes are counted? But you believe it because that is what you have been told! Do you like grape or cherry koolaide?

Fringe - no we review the polling data, we read the articles of the world, not just this nation, we know think for ourselves and we don't believe the what we are told to believe.

Speaking of gospel - "fighting them over there is better than fighting them in our streets" is the shrubs gospel. Go have fun reading some of the 9/11 threads, see if any of the let it happen or made it happen discussions cause you to question your gospel beliefs.

[Name removed]

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[TahitiNut]

232. Washington Times?

:eyes:

[Occulus]

194. See, the problem with seeing the whole BBV issue as "fringe"

is that, if it is in sum true, it's one hell of a fatal blow to our democracy.

We can't dare to take the chance that everything is okay "because they say so". We have to check this, because, if it is true, we have a domestic enemy fiddling with our electoral process.

If you are military, as you claim, perhaps you'd like to explain to us what you consider to be a "domestic enemy", aka an enemy of the Constitution.

I only ask because, if the BBV issue is true, we are dealing with exactly that.

[Name removed]

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

207. Actually you flat out said

that the election fraud talk in 2000 was koolaid-esque and now election fraud talk is "fringe."

So yes, you did say that. It's right here on this thread.

[Name removed]

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

217. Then you did say it was "fringe."

So your statement above, that you didn't, is false.

Your time is about up. I hope you've had fun playing your little game.

[Name removed]

218. Deleted message

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

220. Who mentioned Florida OR Ohio?

We were talking about you calling someone who believed there was election fraud this time around "fringe."

[Name removed]

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[SarahB]

125. The Best Democracy Money Can Buy by Greg Palast

It's not just a Democratic book either as Democrats are duly criticized when needed, but it does detail, in depth (with documentation), what happened in Florida in 2000. Read it. Learn it. It does have big words though so keep a dictionary on hand. Good luck.

edit: typo

[Name removed]

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[merh]

140. Do you always talk out of both sides of your mouth?

Your post implies
that there will be some point in the future when we will have in fact "perfected" the democratic experiment here in the US. You are even more optimistic than me.

[Name removed]

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[merh]

158. Being happy with an administration's policies and losing rights

are two (2) entirely different things.

How do you feel about government mandated mental tests of children and mandated medication if tests reveal that medication is appropriate?

That is whay the weed and his administration is passing into law. No parental consent required.

[merh]

165. Regarding the elections

I suggest you go review the research conducted by many DUers in the Voting forum TruthisAll and Eloriel have some great threads going.

Also, this relates to democracy and the election issue. Just think about the hypocracy of our nation, our admin (GWB and Powell), as they are calling for an investigation into the irregularities that occurred during the Ukraine election. They refuse to admit the winner is the winner and they are again interfering in to another nations business. What irregularities do you ask, well for one, the EXIT POLLING DOESN'T MATCH THE RESULTS (sound familiar). They there was also voter disenfranchisement and interference at the polls and lost votes and destroyed votes.

Don't call me a sheeple if you refuse to look at the facts that have been developed. You believe in democracy, then I challenge you to challenge your beliefs and look into the claims of election fraud.

Look into the torture claims (sleep deprivation was not the only torture used, imagine a young boy being sodomized in front of his mother in an effort to get the mother to tell where those nasty terrorists are, shocking of humans is more than sleep deprivation, letting dogs attack humans that are cuffed is pretty nasty). Do what you say you do, research, read and learn. If you need links, I will be glad to provide them for you.

You want to be a progressive, then do not repeat the lies of this admin and expect me to believe them or welcome you.

[Name removed]

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[Mandate My Ass]

175. Wow! Are you Agent Orange?

Dogs barking at naked Iraqi prisoners is torture. Only someone extremely culturally ignorant would claim otherwise.

Everything done at Abu Ghraib was torture.

I guess you were there too. Pathetic.

[Name removed]

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[Mandate My Ass]

211. Thanks for proving my point

that you're neither military nor do you have the remotest clue as to what constitutes torture under int'l law.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

177. I saw Seymour Hersch speak a few weeks ago

he wrote "Chain of Command" and exposed the Abu Ghraib scandal. He also exposed the My Lai massacre way back during Vietnam. He is dialed in to the intelligence community, and I suggest you pick his book up at your library. Abu Ghraib is only the tip of the iceberg.

[merh]

179. Let's see you know about the costs of running a mess hall

and you have answers for that, you know about the charging of wounded soldiers for their meals and have an answer for that, you were involved with interrogations - gee you are GI all around Joe and mighty talented.

Relative to your claims about cheaper labor, don't try that one with me either, I don't like that argument. I believe fair wages and benefits should be paid, even to employees of corporations that benefit from the outsourcing. Fair wages and fair benefits add to the economy and to the tax base and benefit the military and the country. Not tax rebates or is it refunds. Why not just use illegal immigrants and let them do it for cheap wages and no benefits? Oh that's right, those illegal immigrants are used on the bases by the private entities that do construction and landscaping! I have seen the contracts and I know that the charges of corporation like Haliburton are outrageous - outside of their bids. You know what, this has been and is being investigated by the pentagon and congress (Haliburton).

I have bored with this. I leave you to your kool aide and I leave this debate. :boring:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

183. He also claims to know all about a

secret plan to invade Iraq that goes back to 1992 or 1996, depending on what he says.

This guy is totally full of shit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on the service question for a while, but this is just too much. No wonder he won't reveal details of his service that he VOLUNTEERED to reveal.

[Name removed]

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[muriel_volestrangler]

237. The Taguba report does include a dog biting a prisoner

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3684825.stm

"Military dogs were used to frighten and intimidate; in one case a detainee was bitten"

and sodomy (though not, in this case, in front of the mother):

"A prisoner was sodomised with a chemical light"

And remember there are worse photos and videos than those that have been released:

"Members of Congress today expressed shock and disgust after viewing hundreds of photographs and video clips related to the abuse of U.S.-held prisoners in Iraq, material that they said would be withheld from the public to protect the integrity of military trials and to avoid further inflaming America's enemies."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21551-2004May12.html

And Seymour Hersh says there are videotapes of boys being raped:

"Seymour Hersh says the US government has videotapes of boys being sodomized at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

"The worst is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking," the reporter told an ACLU convention last week. Hersh says there was "a massive amount of criminal wrongdoing that was covered up at the highest command out there, and higher.""

http://radio.weblogs.com/0107946/2004/07/14.html#a1922

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

42. Um

the chances of them coming here are VERY VERY small.

The whole "let's fight them there" thing is worn so thin and really wasn't a substantial argument to begin with.

Iraq was no threat to us. Iraq did nothing to us. Thus this war is immoral and unjustified.

[Name removed]

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

118. So you agree it isn't a just war?

Good, so do I. An unprovoked attack on a people who did nothing to us is QUITE unjust.

[tsuki]

90. And illegal if you believe in the Geneva Convention.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

94. Geneva Convention is international law

it's not a question of believing, though the Bush administration thinks it's a matter of faith much like their belief in Jesus.

[Just Me]

44. Be honest,...you are DISMISSING my point,...

,...and distracting from it, as well.

Please don't do that.

You are simply avoiding being a problem-solver and engaging in rationalizations that create the same ole' problems,...over and over again.

[Name removed]

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[Just Me]

55. No. You did, indeed, re-direct the facts I provided to you.

While you provided "facts" which nominalized American blood spent for a war of aggression (rather than protection),...you have obviously taken "facts" I provided you with respect to this so-called "war on terror" (our domestic problems being far more egregious),...proving to be an intentional marketing tool (eg propaganda) which has been wielded to control the masses via a rationalization of this administration's OBVIOUS war of aggression. Spin your psychological circles, round and round and out and about,...you cannot change facts.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

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[maddezmom]

65. broken link

do you have another?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[maddezmom]

73. here's a few I found, while waiting for your link

Terrorist Leaders Remain Largely Untouched

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/hunting_al_qaida_3

10 arrested in US anti-terror raid: officials
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041118/ts_alt_afp/us_attacks_arrests_041118203957

or another version:

US anti-terror agents arrest 14 for immigration fraud, gun possession
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041119/ts_alt_afp/us_attacks_arrests_041119072437

[Name removed]

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[maddezmom]

77. yes, thanks

Looks like we have enough trouble here at home...from the article.

~snip~

But some of the alleged domestic terrorists who have been arrested had ambitious plans. The people and groups range from white supremacists, anti-government types and militia members to eco-terrorists and people who hate corporations. They include violent anti-abortionists and black and brown nationalists who envision a separate state for blacks and Latinos. And they have been busy.

"Not a lot of attention is being paid to this, because everybody is concerned about the guy in a turban. But there are still plenty of angry, Midwestern white guys out there," says U.S. Marshals Service chief inspector Geoff Shank.

Shank, who is based in the Chicago area, says the concerns about domestic terrorism range from anti-abortion extremists who threaten to attack clinics and doctors to some violent biker gangs that may be involved in organized crime. And the FBI said in June that eco-terrorism — acts of violence, sabotage or property damage motivated by concern for animals or the environment — was the nation's top domestic terrorism threat. The bureau said then that eco-terrorists had committed more than 1,100 criminal acts and caused property damage estimated at least $110 million since 1976.

Alleged terrorist plots by U.S. citizens are not new, but many of the recent conspiracies were overshadowed by 9/11 and the hunt for terrorists abroad. Most of the foiled plots didn't get very far. And few got much publicity. But there were some potentially close calls, such as the scheme by William Krar, an east Texas man who stockpiled enough sodium cyanide to gas everyone in a building the size of a high school basketball gymnasium before he was arrested in 2002.

[Name removed]

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[maddezmom]

85. seems to me, we should take care of our own backyard before

invading other countries based on faulty pre-war intelligence. :)

[Name removed]

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

99. It seems to me that you are only here to stir up trouble

there's nothing progressive about the views you express. I think you may be more at home on a RW website.

[Name removed]

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[maddezmom]

109. before or after we invaded Iraq???

and besides the domestic terryaism, we got lots of problems here at home. Just saying...maybe we shouldn't be so quick to bring "democracy and freedom" to other parts of the world before we have it down to a perfection. :)

[Name removed]

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[Just Me]

137. Here is the site/organization which provides my facts,...

http://www.counterterrorism.org/

Now, you provide a site which proves that our soldiers would be as likely to be injured or die (as a distinct group) from the sources you assert,...if they were NOT in theatre.

Please, do try to stay on task. I know it's difficult,...but, we can do this. :bounce:

[Name removed]

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[Just Me]

149. Huh? Not "Just Me". You're confused. But, that's okay.

We were discussing "perspective", you and I. But, your impressions were not suggested by anything I posted. Oh, well.

Yawn.

Maybe we can finish our discussion about "perspective" (eg on soldiers maimed/killed in a "war on terror" vs. the basis for a "war on terror") when you can stay on task,... and when it's not past my bedtime.

BTW,...welcome to DU :hi:

Goodnight.

[Zech Marquis]

236. Winter Ranger LOL

tell me you're not serious--oh well, hope yu enoyed your short stay freep :evilgrin:

[merh]

37. How about the depleted uranium and other illnesses

related to the vacinations they are required to take before they go over there?

How many birth defects will our soldiers or their spouse have and how many illnesses will they have to deal with that are not recognized for 10 years because of this military action.

You have a medal as your avitar, are you serving? If not, how the hell are your benefits if you were ever entitled to them?

[Name removed]

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[merh]

67. Hey soldier sir, just wait until the effects of all that crap hit you or

the 4,500 after you are no longer serving! A seizure ain't the only effect, just you wait. You want to have kids, well just wait and see what all that DU does to you! The Gulf War Syndrome is real and the illnesses are still affecting thousands of guys that served in the gulf war.

I know, I was involved with a vet who went through the battery of tests at the VA hospitals 5 years after the war only to be told that his illnesses were not related to the war and were all in his mind!

Just wait until you are in your 50's or 60's and they decide the benefits promised today are too much and you don't get them any more! I watched my father who proudly fought in WWII lose his benefits over the years (thanks to St. Raygun and his love of the troops) and all he asked is that he nation keep its promises - he was dejected and angered, he kept his end of the bargin, this nation didn't.

Did you know that the military was charging the wounded vets for their meals until folks like me protested and screamed at the top of our lungs that that was not fair.

Wake up - put the kool aide down and figure out it is one sick f*ckin game and you are just a pawn, no a checker piece, these guys ain't smart enough to use a pawn.

You want to spill your guts for oil, go ahead. I will continue to protest this war in the hopes of saving your life as well as others that are serving in this military. I fight for your rights as well as my own. You fight with weapons and brawn, I fight with words and with my mind. I am as dedicated to my country as you are, only difference is, I am dedicated to the entire human race and would like to save it!

[Name removed]

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

75. Oil is expensive because Bush's coorporate donors are getting rich

corporations now run America. Business first, country second.

Oil will remain expensive to enrich all the oil companies that donated millions to Bush, as well as the Bush's close friends, the Saudi Royal Family.

[merh]

76. You are out of your mind - $2 ain't nothing, but good to know that

you are so damned brave stateside! Other parts of the world the gas is $4 or more a gallon, hell there are states in the good ole USofA that the prices are at $3.50 to $4.00. You are so damned lucky, drive your SUV and be happy that is all you pay. Yes, it is for the oil and so that the corporations friendly to and friends with GWB and his political cronies can profit, it is not for our safety or to spread democracy. They don't hate us for our freedom, they hate us for our hypocrasy. GWB is just as bad as Saddam, hell at least Saddam didn't destroy all of their cities and kill over 100,000!

The dehydration issue is because the soldiers do not have adequate water supplies over there. They don't have the proper equipment, the vehicles are not adequately armored and you want to know what else -- GWB did not follow the advice of the military leaders that told him (1) you can't attack Iraq without a proper exit policy and (2) you can't invade and occupy without unless you send enough troops over there to secure the ammo dumps, hospitals, museums, government buildings, etc and protect them from looting until a government is established.

Ask to be assigned over there if you are so gungho damnit!

[Name removed]

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[merh]

114. There are several things you don't get

there are soldiers over that that don't have adequate water, so you were one of the blessed that did. How long since your tour?

The Iraqis did not ask us to come save them and spread our democracy, why are we there?

Answer that will ya! Tell me why are we over there killing thousands?

[merh]

79. You might want to check out this site!

http://optruth.com/main.cfm

[Name removed]

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[merh]

117. Why are you here, you definitely are not liberal

If you think you are then you are misguided and confused.

Why are we in Iraq? Their oil wells were working just fine before we invaded and occupied. Why did our leaders order that the ministry of oil and all of the wells be guarded and not all of the ammo storage facilities? Why because we are there for their oil. Haliburton is not an Iraqi corporation now is it?

Why did we destroy their infrastructure? Do we need to let contract so that political cronies can profit from them and rebuild what we destroyed.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

120. You didn't answer his question about why we are killing Iraqis

and for that matter you didn't answer when I asked you that, either.

Seems there isn't an answer.

[Name removed]

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

148. What is your opinion

as to why we are killing Iraqis?

[Name removed]

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

156. Could you try being a bit more specific?

So, um, you knew we were going to invade Iraq in 96, you say, and you "got used to the idea" but now seem to have no opinion on it?

I love the way you constantly dodge the question. See, the thing is, you'd be SERIOUSLY hard-pressed to find a legitimate DUer here who supports the war in Iraq. What I'm asking you is IF you support it or NOT.

It's a pretty simple question.

[Name removed]

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[Mandate My Ass]

166. For all your claims

You have yet to back up one thing you've said with hard evidence.

Spinning wheels? This sounds more like the kind of spinning used to promote an agenda that has no moral, legal or rational basis in fact.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

172. Ahem.

Now that you have claimed to have been privvy to this inside information as far back as 96, you are going to have to spill it as to what your job was that entailed you knowing this.

And again with the obsfucation.

I am talking about RIGHT NOW, not historically did you support it or not. I mean DO you support the war in Iraq right now? Yes or no. Simple question.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

173. By the way, expound upon this "plan"

you were privvy to. Where did it come from? Who designed it? Details, back this story up. It smells funny.

[Name removed]

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

180. Lovely

so it was a "contingency plan." I see. The kind we have on file for just about every freaking country.

Thanks for all the detail on the binders and such. You had me under the impression you actually knew something there for a second.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

182. By the way,

have you gotten up further where I take you up on your offer to spill the beans on every detail of your military service?

Also, care to answer straight up the question I've been asking you all evening?

DO you currently support the war in Iraq? Yes or no.

Your repeated ignoring this question is making you look less and less credible with every post.

[RetroLounge]

135. Hope you enjoy your tombstone

B'Bye

RL

[merh]

141. I learned about the hospital charging for meals from a sister

of a wounded soldier not from the press. It was not the fault of some lil' ole lady behind the register, it was the admin's attempt to negate costs. You believe what you want. I know what went on and the efforts, hard fought emotional efforts, of the family members of the soldiers is what made a difference.

Even if it was the lil' old ladies, it is this admin that has outsourced everything conceivable so that their corporate buddies can make a buck - can abuse my tax dollars.

[Name removed]

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[merh]

159. If their was no profit in it for the private organizations, then why

are they involved in it? If the services are done in house, any profit goes back into the budget to be used by the entity (to the taxpayer) - if they are properly managed. If the management is the problem in the military or other government entity, then that needs to be addressed. Don't try to pull that on me, I have worked in the government and with accounting and budgeting matters - I know the truth and I don't fall for that. Bottom line - if there was no profit to be made, corporations would not want a part of it. Profits to corporations should be tax benefits to the entity.

I don't believe the goobly goop!

[Name removed]

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[MADem]

143. NO NO NO

That is just an UNTRUE explanation of what happened with the hospital meals issue. Now do not take offense, but I'm wondering how much you know about anything if you do not know about this. You must be fairly junior if you are indeed active to not know how things work, or you are letting down your subordinates by not having a supervisor's rudimentary understanding of the dull but necessary admin end of military service.

Enlisted members who have a chow hall pass never paid any additional monies, and were never charged for anything, because they never received a payment for their food. Enlisted married people and those living off base (collecting BAS) get a payment for their rations, and this was DEDUCTED on a pro-rated, daily basis, because, ostensibly, they were getting fed by the hospital, and didn't have to go buy their own groceries.

Officers ALWAYS pay for meals, except now, where they have fixed it so that if you are a combat casualty you do not have to pay.

If you check in to Walter Reed for lasik surgery or a facelift, you are STILL PAYING if you are receiving a BAS payment. It's only the direct combat casualties that got the break, and it took an act of Congress to change the pay regs to address this issue.

The issue was brought to the fore by families who DEPENDED on that SEPRATS payment to feed their whole family (not just the member--the old "two--or more--can live as cheaply as one" caveat applies), and whose loved one was lying in a coma or otherwise gravely injured, getting charged for meals they could never eat. It was the "insult to injury" that caused the initial protests, which came to Congress through spouses, at first. It was only after the Congressional Liaison Offices of all the Services started getting bitch-letters from the reps that the Service Command Sgt. Majors/CMCs and HQ level finance and personnel types started scrambling to fix the issue. In the end, it was Congress that did it. The military personnel were just saying "Yeah, that's just wrong" but our usually do-nothing Congress (and it was a republican who introduced the bill, and he deserves credit for so doing) identified the issue to the military, AND passed the bill to fix it.

It wasn't "little old ladies" behind counters that were causing the problem, the problem started at the hospital finance/pay and personnel offices generating the documents that were forwarded to the respective services, and thence to DFAS, who dutifully processed the paperwork without giving a shit one way or another.

There's even more to this issue than what I've stated, but your 'lunch ladies' remark is totally inaccurate. Those poor women who get paid in the dark to dole out the food don't have a goddamn thing to do with this. Neither does the poor bastard running the mess hall. It all happens in the pay and personnel arena, upon the arrival of the member into the hospital environs, and not the food service department. And those regs are PROPOSED by the Services to the Congress, and the Congress chops them, and passes them.

In short, the problem started with people within the military infrastructure who did not want to have that particular additional line item added to the budget. More money expended (not taken out of existing paychecks) for free meals equals less money for bullets, in the big picture. It all comes out of the same pot at the end of the day--the DoD pot.

Related reading for your edification:
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=16858&archive=true

[HuckleB]

88. Which branch of the military did you say you were in?

And how much are you getting paid to post disinformation on websites like this?

[Name removed]

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[HuckleB]

98. So you must claim.

Unfortunately for you, I know enough to know better. But,hey, a job is a job. Conscience be damned. Right?

[Name removed]

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[HuckleB]

105. I know the rules.

I also know they are broken all the time, depending on your actual modus operandi. Of course, that's assuming that you've ever even enlisted at any point in your life. And that's something I very much doubt.

[Name removed]

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[HuckleB]

112. You do crack me up.

It's funny, though. You're not even subtle about this game of yours, and yet you want me to be foolish enough to believe a thing you write, even though you offer nothing to even remotely directly back up anything you claim? Ah, yes. I know. It's your game. So it's your rules. Hey, I hope you enjoyed yourself. I know I did.

[Name removed]

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[HuckleB]

133. You going to bring them to my house?

I'm sure you know where I live, so, hey, meet me there. I love this whole blind-to-politics-and-history soldier crap that you are pushing here, by the way. It shows you to be exactly what you are: a non-military phony posing here at DU in order to get some kicks and giggles. Well, keep on kicking with that perty smile on yer face.

[Name removed]

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[HuckleB]

202. Why do I get the feeling that you just described yourself?

Except that your actually a faux "military" nerd of the type you describe? Hmm. Sounds like you've been caught a few times, and now you're turning the rhetoric thrown at you around. Hey, nice try. You more than showed your stripes here, uh, I mean lack thereof.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

208. Hey you need his full name

to check him out on AKO. Ask him for his full name.

I'm thinking you might also need a SS#.

[HuckleB]

210. I'd need to see him live, too.

He could have his dad's info., or his brother's, or roommate's, or some friggin' stranger who he's taken to the Visa card stranglehold. This poster smells like a phony from the word go. Heck. If he was in the military, he would have ignored me a long time ago, yet he kept responding. That is actually what clinched it for me.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

212. Right, exactly.

No one would be willing to go THIS far with it, CERTAINLY not someone trained in Special Forces (bwa!).

That's the point I made to him above. Even IF he gave me a name and social that matched the record I found there that he posted here, I'd have to see who HE is and see a photo of the guy whose service record I am looking at.

The fact that he keeps mentioning this database makes me think that's where the hell he got it in the first place.

Tomorrow, I'm having my husband get on this thread and ask him some REALLY nitty-gritty questions, since he was stationed at a lot of the same places at the same time as this guy says he was. He'll be able to ask him really specific shit.

[Name removed]

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[Moonbeam_Starlight]

240. And let me tell you something.

Anyone who really DID have that service record would:

a) not be so desperate to prove it and

b) would know that proving it, on the internet, is impossible. As I told you in the PM, you can give me all the names you want, but there's no way of verifying that YOU (the person typing your posts) are that person on the service record. Like I said, you could be some little old lady in Hoboken, New Jersey, or a seventeen year old in Alabama for all any of us know. Someone who truly was 35 years old and an Army veteran would, presumably, be smart enough to figure that out in advance. And see "a" again.

It was an amusing, though offensive, game. And I certainly hope you've learned not to engage in it anymore.

As for the casualties, shame on you. Trying to diminish and trivialize servicemembers casualties is quite a despicable thing to do, and as a veteran's wife and daughter, I don't appreciate it at all.

And supporting the war in Iraq is quite an interesting position for a "progressive" to take.

[MADem]

168. Guidance is distributed

In the PAO/PIO arena, they are called RTQs--Response to Queries. Usually disseminated in Q and A format, and put out to senior leaders to disseminate to subordinates. The "Do not talk to reporters/do not criticize the chain of command" guidance is usually reiterated in these documents as well. There's also the ubiquitous "personal for" message, generated most commonly by a Flag or General officer, telling those within his sphere of influence what the thinking is. Like crap, it rolls downhill. You may not see a memo, but if any guidance on a specific issue of military interest is put out at a formation or morning quarters, it comes from a coordinated document disseminated at a higher level, and when it deals with national security issues, it comes straight from the five sided funny farm.

[Name removed]

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

239. Wow, I can't believe you're still here

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

40. what about the thousands of others who were killed or wounded in

hostile action, if those are the only ones that count?

[Mandate My Ass]

43. Moot? Really?

Do you have any stats to back up the rate of vehicle accidents per soldier population here in the USA is in any way comparable to that of those stationed in Iraq?

So because people here die from heat casualties (mostly from crushing poverty) we are supposed to overlook soldiers who die from heat-related health problems? I doubt anywhere in the US outside of Death Valley gets anywhere near as hot as Iraq.

Speaking of points? Do you have one?

Fight them there instead of here. Yeah, heard it somewhere.:eyes:

[Name removed]

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[Mandate My Ass]

62. Can't back your BS up with stats huh?

Didn't think so. :dunce:

I don't have a morbid fascination with casualties but it seems you have a morbid aversion to acknowledging them.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

123. MORBID FASCINATION

with service members dying?

Right there, right there you just identified yourself as not being a liberal. I cannot imagine a single person here saying we have a morbid fascination with service members dying.

It's called CARING and it's too fucking bad the government doesn't do more of it. It's too bad all those service members had to die for diddly squat, that's the real crime here, besides the innocent Iraqi blood spilled, homes destroyed, livelihoods taken away.

And yet, you see it as a morbid fascination. Very curious, that.

I'm the wife of a vet. As civilans, it is our JOB to check out our government when it wants to use our troops in war. The troops can't exactly say "no thanks, we think that's a fucked up reason to go to war" now can they? So it's up to US to watchdog the government, to make sure they NEVER use the troops for immoral, unjust wars without our screaming bloody hell about it and millions of us did before this war started and we still do, but then as your president said, we are just a "focus group" not millions of Americans, and he doesn't listen to "focus groups."

These service members have spilled their blood for ___________ (fill in the blank). Have you taken the Kool Aid powder straight and think it's actually part of some war on terror (like declaring war on the Atlantic Ocean, that)? Eh? If not that, then what? Why have they DIED?

I wonder if you could tell us what you did with the Army while you were there? Were you in the rear with the gear, so to speak?

[Sterling]

60. Not at the same level and you should know that.

Show us a brake down of deaths from accidents and heat related sickness here and in theatre if you want to be taken seriously. You have to believe our troops live in the field when stationed stateside to even consider such and obsurd idea.

You also have to believe our troops encounter encounter as many dangerous driving situations and possible IED related raffic incidents stateside.

Just a stupid assertion in general.

[Name removed]

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[LynnTheDem]

153. And another one that listens avidly to pigboy and handjob

as they denigrate & marginalize our troops' deaths by comparing to vehicular accidental deaths in California.

We INVADED and are OCCUPYING a sovereign nation that DID NOTHING and was NO THREAT TO ANYONE.

Our MEN, WOMEN and TEENAGERS are DYING and losing LIMBS and being scarred FOR LIFE for NOTHING but a pack of LIES.

HOW BLOODY DARE YOU sick little motherf*ckers sit here and post your CRAP trying to MARGINALIZE OUR TROOPS'S DEATHS.

[TahitiNut]

17. 17,878 American casualties from Iraq treated in 20 months

This doesn't include those treated elsewhere.

So, the primary concern is that al-Jazeera is reporting a number that might be inaccurate by about 10%? Well, I'm sure those 17,878 Americans are mighty glad to have this "issue" raised - that sure must be foremost on their minds and the top concern of their families. Yup. :eyes:

/sarcasm

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[merh]

20. Just an FYI - the numbers released by the DOD may not be

accurate, there is a question regarding immigrants serving in the military and whether they are being counted.

I personally don't believe everthing this admin tells us.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

36. The ENEMY in Iraq?

Who exactly is the enemy in Iraq? Do you mean all the terrorists that have swarmed into Iraq since we invaded the place in March of 2003?

Surely you don't mean the Iraqis. Let's see how willing YOU are to roll over and die if another country came in, shot up your house, killed your kids (oops! accident!) and then occupied this country.

[BUSHOUT]

82. What do you mean "field day"? They seem to have just reported it...

I guess reporting the news is having a "field day" with it in your estimate?

I realize the truth is not always convenient for those who make war. If they don't like it, maybe they shouldn't make war. You agree?

[HuckleB]

139. Reporting stories inconvenient to the corporatocracy = a big ol' field day

I love this whole blind-to-politics-and-history soldier crap that some posters are pushing here. It shows them to be exactly what they are: non-military phonies posing here at DU in order to get some kicks and giggles.

[HuckleB]

136. What percentage do you think are "noncombat illnesses"?

I'd really like to know.

[LynnTheDem]

147. And another idiot trying to TRIVIALIZE the dead/wounded

The "ENEMY" in Iraq is us.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

150. There's hardly anything worse

in my opinion, than trivializing the death and destruction we are simultaneously causing and suffering from.

Except the people who started it in the first place. Which would be the bush administration.

[LynnTheDem]

162. I agree absolutely.

They don't give a flying fck about the Iraqis because they don't even give a flying fck about their own American men, women & teenagers being blown to pieces for that war criminal bullshit bastard bush.

[NNN0LHI]

10. Its amazing the amount of chaos only a few Saddam loyalists can cause

Who could have imagined?

Don

[BonjourUSA]

18. About 15% of the US troop in Iraq !?

[Name removed]

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[merh]

45. Yeah, the more troops there, the greater the increase in the

deaths!

U.S. Death Toll in Iraq Nears Record


The U.S. military death toll in Iraq (news - web sites) rose by at least three Monday and the November total is approaching the highest for any month since the American-led invasion was launched in March 2003.

At least 133 U.S. troops have died in Iraq so far this month ¡X only the second time it has topped 100 in any month. The deadliest month was last April when 135 U.S. troops died as the insurgency flared in Sunni-dominated Fallujah, where dozens of U.S. troops died this month.


The Pentagon (news - web sites)'s official death toll for Iraq stood at 1,251 on Monday, but that did not include two soldiers killed by a roadside bomb in Baghdad and another killed in a vehicle accident. When the month began, the death toll stood at 1,121, the Pentagon said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/2...



But we are winning the war on terra because they are fighting over there. :puke:

[MADem]

145. But they'll be back there again in the next rollout

I've got friends who are getting ready to go back to the sandbox for a second run at it. When do you ship out?

[ET Awful]

235. Wrong again . . .

You did know that there are thousands of National Guard and Reserve troops that have been there over 18 months right?

[Bridget Burke]

238. If you're such a military hotshot, why aren't you in Iraq?

Surely your vast experience would be useful.

[bobthedrummer]

26. That's just one hospital.

It's much worse than indicated imo.

[maddezmom]

30. excellent point, this does not include any of the field hospitals in Iraq

[MADem]

161. Bob, it ain't just your opinion

I know a senior leader or two stationed at Landstuhl. The number of brain injury patients they are receiving is -- and this is a quote -- "crushing" them. They are having a really tough time handling the load. They are moving people on at a faster rate than they would like, just to make room for incoming.

This tells me a couple of things. First, the "insurgents" (you can call them terra-ists, you can call them Freedom Fighters, you can call them whatever, they are the ones who are shooting at our brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers who have been ordered over there, and who would rather be home for the holidays) are NOT giving up. Second, they are LEARNING. What they are learning is aim for the head and neck, shoot them in the face, because the DoD is finally doing a slightly better job of getting interceptors on the torsos of our kids. And if you just wing 'em, they'll be back...

I do hate this fucking war. It was so damn unnecessary.

[ally_sc]

89. But are those stats accurate?? nfm

[maddezmom]

100. do you have reason to believe they aren't??

as someone pointed out, this is only for the hospital in Germany. There are plenty more from other facilities. :(

[fshrink]

104. which would put the death toll at about 2,000. nt