One Month Later, Fight Over Ohio Continues (AP!!!)

[meganmonkey]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4643374,00.html

[Pirate Smile]

1. It is up on Yahoo News also.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041129/ap_on_el_pr/ohio_vote&cid=694&ncid=1963&sid=96378798

[cosmicdot]

2. current average rating is 4.81 with 21 votes

rate that one a 5

[sepia_steel]

3. HAhahahaha...

"There are no signs of widespread irregularities," said Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell.

[stepnw1f]

35. It Doesn't Matter What they Say

Any Republican road blocking this time, will be irrelevant. Did you see that massive protest in Ukraine?

[belab13]

42. Has anyone here in fact compiled the instances of irregularities in Ohio?

It would be nice to have a list to cite every time I bring this up with colleagues.

[Jo March]

22. The article is rated at 3.81 now - rate it up!

Come on!!! We don't want this to slip.

[kittycat1164]

25. we need to DU this!

You have given the news article One Month Later, Fight Over Ohio Continues a rating of 5.
Its current average rating is 3.58 with 522 vote(s).

[iguani]

28. Every vote needs to be counted but I Believe Bush won

I voted for Kerry and I understand what we are all feeling. I thought Kerry had a great chance of winning. The simple fact is that Kerry didn't win. There is nothing we can do now to change that. I know many don't agree with me but we must venture forward and hold our heads up. We have lost before but we will win again. I fear all of the negative rhetoric is only going to hurt us in the long run. We are going to push more voters away than we can persuade to our side.

[meganmonkey]

29. What was that about negative rhetoric?

This isn't about Kerry winning or who is on what side. This is about the integrity of democracy. There was fraud - it is widely agreed upon. Whether it was enough to change the election may be up for debate.
Regardless, we need to make sure our democracy is intact, and we need to make fraud public, and investigate every case, and make changes to the system to ensure this doesn't happen again in 2006 and 2008.
Your negative rhetoric is what is dangerous.

[iguani]

30. It's not all about that

It is about our integrity. Fraud must be exposed. Every vote must be counted. Our democracy is stable in our opinion. What is dangerous is an unwillingness by some to confuse the real issue with emotions that are dangerous.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. How can our democracy be stable

when our voting system is so screwed up?

[daleo]

31. What you or I believe is interesting

But I would also like to find out the truth.

[iguani]

33. The truth will set us free

No doubt about it...

[IndianaGreen]

34. I actually think that Kerry may have just won Ohio

and it would create a major crisis if the recount were to show that Kerry carried Ohio. The repukes will try to pass legislation appointing Bush electors, just as Florida did in 2000, and thus prevent Kerry from being declared the winner when the Congress counts the electoral votes.

If this were to happen, we must all take to the streets as our Ukrainian friends have done. Storm Capitol Hill if need be! The people must take back their government even if that means being impolite.

[conflictgirl]

38. I don't know...

It's entirely possible that Bush really did win, as much as that idea pains me to think. But I also think there are enough irregularities that suggest fraud, and the fact that some officials are trying to block investigations into those irregularities only makes it look more suspicious IMO. If Bush won fair and square, there should be nothing to fear in looking into the cause of the strange incidents. If we ever hope to trust in our democracy again, we the voters deserve to have the truth brought into the light instead of suppressed. And, on the flip side, I would also say that if a full investigation is blocked, our democracy is in huge trouble. The way I look it at is this: if you (general you) think that I'm just a conspiracy theorist, prove me wrong.

For me it's not about proving that Kerry won. It's about wanting to KNOW that the results are true. It's about wanting to trust in the electoral process in the future. And if we can't trust it, our democracy has ceased to exist. :(

[mod mom]

39. DEMOCRACY is at STAKE!

It was a fraudulent election. If Ukrainians can demand correction of a fraudulent election why can't we. Checkout Truthout and Freepress.
They(the republicans) want us to roll over! This is a civil rights issue! The placement of machines in inner city and colleges was nothing short of a modern day poll tax.

[iguani]

43. Are we prepared to look at all the close states

If we look at Ohio and the irregularities then we must be prepared to look at all close states Kerry won as well as Bush.

Kerry won

Hawaii by 37,209
Michigan by 164,243
Minnesota by 98,444
New Hampshire by 9,171
Pennsylvania by 128,869
Wisconsin by 11,816

Bush won

Ohio by 136,483
New Mexico by 6,047
Nevada by 21,567
Iowa by 13,498

When does it end? I know many will say when fraud is found out and our democracy is protected. Have we ever considered if we challenge everything and state that is close we will be hurting our democracy and our party. We must be able to look at both sides of the issue.

[missouri dem 2]

47. I am perfectly willing to count the votes in every state. It will show

that Kerry won the popular vote as well as the electorial college. What is democracy if our votes are not counted?

[conflictgirl]

49. How do you figure we'll be hurting our democracy or party?

The answer to when it ends: when a legitimate investigation into the things that look suspicious is conducted. It is *not* when fraud is found out, it's when we can prove whether it was or was not. There are enough things that look questionable in this election (and let's not even go back to 2000) that I truly believe that if we don't fix the problems, our party will be nothing but a shell in 2008 or 2012 at the latest. Again, for me at least it's NOT about proving there was fraud. But how is testing the machines to make sure they're functioning correctly hurting our democracy? How is it hurting our democracy to look into stories of voter intimidation, registrations of Democrats being thrown away by people hired by the Republicans, into *why* there is so much discrepancy between the exit polls and actual votes in some states, but not in others?

Perhaps my question for you is: when does the Democrats' unwillingness to look into what's going on end? When will they act like they CARE that they keep losing under what appears to be suspicious circumstances?

I'd even go so far as to say that if we do NOT push for an investigation of these things that appear suspicious, it means one of a few things:
1. You implicitly trust that no one associated with our political system would do something like this.
2. You don't believe the discrepancies and weird occurrences really happened, despite news reports to the contrary.
3. If they did happen, you don't think they have any consequence on our political system as a whole.
4. You're more afraid of looking like "Sore/Loserman" pt. 2 than finding out if we can trust our electoral system.
5. If fraud really took place and we don't investigate it, those who perpetrated the fraud will know we the voters aren't going to do anything about it, and therefore they have no incentive to operate differently in the future - or even go further.

Or, to put it another way: if a suspected criminal is on trial and the lawyers for the opposition want said criminal to take a polygraph test but the suspect refuses, do you just say "oh well, okay" or do you think they have something to hide?

[Lizzie Borden]

50. Fine. Look at the vote totals in each state.

I don't have an objection to that. In fact, if you want to have a new election, I wouldn't oject to that either. But as it stands, I will NEVER believe this election wasn't stolen.

[Starlight]

54. We are prepared to look at ALL the states...

not just those that are close. This doesn't end until we have a fair, accurate, transparent, nonpartisan system in place in every single district in the country. EVERY eligible voter must be allowed to vote and EVERY vote must be counted. Nothing less is acceptable. DO you understand that? NOTHING LESS IS ACCEPTABLE!!

[proudbluestater]

58. If you want to look at all states, you have to pull out the exit polls

which showed in the battleground states, Kerry was leading in almost all until -- whoops! "Something" turned the situation around rather suddenly.

In Michigan Kerry was carrying a 6% point lead during the day. Suddenly, whoa, that sort of disappeared later in the day, though that is exactly what he polled at pre-election.

[Ima]

61. Hmmm

"When does it end? I know many will say when fraud is found out and our democracy is protected. Have we ever considered if we challenge everything and state that is close we will be hurting our democracy and our party. We must be able to look at both sides of the issue."



We look at it from the Democratic side. Sorry you don't. We need to be sure our voting process is working correctly.



Your not lost ...are you?

[Overseas]

69. Gee, how about ending when all votes are counted ? n/t

[Overseas]

68. Counting Every Vote is not Negative-- it is democratic !! n/t

[Vidar]

65. voted 1207th, rating 3.81

[leftchick]

4. Woo Hoo! From the Article....

~snip~

Since then, there have been demands for a recount and complaints about uncounted punch-card votes, disqualified provisional ballots and a ballot-machine error that gave hundreds of extra votes to Bush.

Jackson said too many questions have been raised to let the vote stand without further examination.

``We can live with winning and losing. We cannot live with fraud and stealing,'' Jackson said Sunday at Mount Hermon Baptist Church.

An attorney for a political advocacy group on Wednesday plans to file a ``contest of election.'' The request requires a single Supreme Court justice to either let the election stand, declare another winner or throw the whole thing out. The loser can appeal to the full seven-member court, which is dominated by Republicans 5-2.

[jdj]

5. that is a great quote

winning and losing vs fraud and stealing.

[Zan_of_Texas]

9. I know! I just made note of it myself!

eom

[hippiechick]

20. Roh roh ...

"...The request requires a single Supreme Court justice to either let the election stand, declare another winner or throw the whole thing out. The loser can appeal to the full seven-member court, which is dominated by Republicans 5-2..."

Guess where that'll land us ? :eyes:


:hippie:

[lovuian]

46. If the courts decide this Election it has proven Democracy is dead

and we are looking at a Major National Protest and on the level of a National Strike!!!

[clydefrand]

6. If the votes on the punch-card ballots could be counted for other

offices, why not those for president? Sounds fishy too me. Something is rotten in Denmark!


"Some groups also have complained about thousands of punch-card ballots that were not counted because officials in the 68 counties that use them could not determine a vote for president. Votes for other offices on the cards were counted."

[seriousstan]

21. I believe it would be the "chad" problems again.

Each individual vote hole would be a stand alone vote. There would be no reason to invalidate any vote hole that is clearly punched (unless you over voted that vote).

[proud patriot]

7. I rated the Yahoo article

:D

[lakeguy]

8. rated a 5!

[lovuian]

10. Whoo Hoo Its breaking into the News!!! FINALLY!!!

We love you Jesse Jackson!!!

[Dr Fate]

14. I'm glad at least one prominent DEM has the guts to talk about this.

Of course, most of the ones in office are too chickenshit.

[spinbaby]

11. Here's the telling paragraph

Right at the end:

Some groups also have complained about thousands of punch-card ballots that were not counted because officials in the 68 counties that use them could not determine a vote for president. Votes for other offices on the cards were counted.

[Dr Fate]

12. Prominent DEMS should be demanding that the GOP support this.

And if they do not- they can say "You oppose investigating voting irregularities- why? What are you hiding?"

Of course I'm just joking- not one single prominent Democrat, besides members of the CBC have the courage to speak that kind of truth.

This story WILL die, b/c prominent DEMS do not have the guts to go on TV and drum up talking points about this.

So Sad.

[Dancing_Dave]

13. "This is about the integrity of the vote, not about the Kerry campaign"

So Kerry still isn't in this?

This is getting ridiculous. Kerry and the DNC have the money and connections to challenge these fraudulent election results effectively. The Green and Libertarian parties do not...especially not in the critical state of Ohio.

It is understandable that Kerry might want to stay in the background in the early stages of the investigation, and let multi-partisan citizens groups get the ball rolling. But it's getting awfully late in the game for him to continue doing...nothing.

[Dr Fate]

15. The DNC shamefully used this scenario as a fund raising scheme too.

When we were raising money for them- we were told to tell donors that money would be used "in case we have another Florida"

We were also told to say that the money would be used for "attorneys" and for "our own exit polls, so Fox cant call it for Bush"

I hate being made a liar by my own party.

[Stand and Fight]

16. I feel you on that.

I'm growing increasingly more upset with our party. It seems they have forgotten everything they told us. They are like the lover who coos in your ear, only to not be able to perform later.

[Occulus]

57. no, no...

more like the lover that performs just fine but in the morning you wake up to a note on the pillow and your wallet empty.

*sigh*

[Ima]

62. LOL

Well stated!!

[3days]

19. Getting increasingly frustrated

I agree 100%.
I was and am a Kerry supporter and am proud of it ......but I am getting so fed up and sick of the fact that I gave money to their campaign and it is apparently clear that they are not willing to put our money where our mouth was/is.

How can I support a party that will not fight for itself?

[mod mom]

36. Rev Jackson said it's not about Kerry or Bush.

Democracy is at stake. Equal protection under the law is at stake. Civil Rights are at stake.

[Ima]

63. MLK

Fought so every vote to be counted. We could sure use him now.

[Eloriel]

17. UNBELIEVABLE -- look what Blackwell spokesman said

``There are no signs of widespread irregularities,'' said Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell.

:grr:

I am SO sick of the lies. Everywhere I turn, lies, lies and more lies. (Except here, of course.)

[lovuian]

48. Notice Carlo comes out and says it Not Blakewell!!!

It looks ugly when you have a spokesmen say it because we all know Blackwell is going to end up in the courts!!!

Blackwell heres your weaknesses
Your not Jeb
and I would tell ya look at Schilling and Fastow!!!

[cally]

18. Vote a 5 on Yahoo

The rating is down to a 4.36.

It's about time someone reported this.

[annabanana]

23. rated the Yahoo

:kick:

[pinniped]

24. Some creeps are sinking the votes.

Why do those assholes hate democracy?

Do they not want the "truth"?

Oh ya, they can't handle the truth.

It was 3.65 when I voted, now it's 3.58.

--
"The problem seems to be that Rev. Jackson's candidate didn't win," said Carlo LoParo, a Blackwell spokesman.
--

This POS' candidate won so he sees no "widepread" problems.

--
"There are no signs of widespread irregularities," said Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell.
--

There were no widespread irregularities four years ago either.

[ourbluenation]

26. rated 3.58 - bump her up guys

You have given the news article

One Month Later, Fight Over Ohio Continues a rating of 5.

Its current average rating is 3.58 with 536 vote(s).

JTT

[Ima]

37. Its beeing freeped

Its still 3.38, but with 700 + votes.

[Babel_17]

27. I gave it a "5"

We can't let such arrogant and chilling disregard for fairness and democracy become part of our national history without notice or protest.

[WillyT]

32. Me Too !!!

:kick:

[gorbal]

41. I here there is a rally this saturday

I hear there will be a rally this saturday-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x86499

with CASE ohio. I can't find anything on their sight yet but I hear Greg Palast and Jesse Jackson are confirmed.

:)

[prairierose]

44. Kick

:kick:

Let's try to get that rating up...there has to be a way that we can beat the freeps.
:hippie:

[420inTN]

45. Yahoo Story: Its current average rating is 3.58 with 971 vote(s) n/t

[Keirsey]

51. I was the 999th!

Don't forget to email it to someone (even yourself) so we can make it a top emailed story.

[420inTN]

52. Ohhh... good idea. I didn't think of that. Thanks. n/t

[meganmonkey]

53. IT'S #5 on the most emailed list at YAHOO!!!

Keep voting it at a 5 folks, and email it!
Make them cover this story!!!

[George_S]

56. Email done

Good idea. What are the freepers going to do, email it to get even? lol.

[George_S]

55. Its current average rating is 3.58 with 1124 vote(s).

Yeah, it's getting freeped.

[Occulus]

59. I just rated it

same rating- 3.58- but (wait for it)... 1137 votes.

:wtf: The votes cast changed, but the rating didn't. to the hundredth.

What's going on?

[bobbieinok]

60. BBV....no paper trail; only a vapor trail

[Tripmann]

64. Kick - Keep up the voting everyone.....

You have given the news article Nearly a Month Later, Ohio Fight Goes On a rating of 5.
Its current average rating is 3.58 with 1176 vote(s).

[George_S]

66. Kick it up.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041129/ap_on_el_pr/ohio_vote&cid=694&ncid=1963&sid=96378798

[Kellis]

67. I voted it a 5

:kick:

[NJ_Lib]

70. Rated and kicked... n/t

[The Animator]

71. Just out of curiosity, what happens, from a procedural standpoint.

If it turns out Kerry won?

Is there a Constitutional provision for this circumstance?

Hasn't the electoral college already voted?

Would there be an electoral revote?

How could a Kerry transtional team be ready to take office this late in the game?

What if there is no conclusion drawn until after the chimp's re-inauguration?

The past four years I'd been in denial, I was still hoping, even as late as 2003, that someone would announce that since Gore won the election in 2000, that he would get to finish out the remainder of his term. Unfortunately Gore's term ended with Bush still sitting in Al's chair.

I could still here grumblings about the legitamacy of *'s Presidency up until Sept. 11. I can only hope that our democracy can right itself before the next catastrophe.