Ukraine faces split, bloodshed, Putin ally says

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30278830.htm

MOSCOW, Nov 30 (Reuters) - Russian parliamentary speaker Boris Gryzlov said on Tuesday Ukraine was headed for breakup or bloodshed over its deadlocked presidential election.

"The situation there is heading towards a split or towards bloodshed," Gryzlov, who briefly took part in attempts to mediate between pro-Moscow Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich and West-leaning Viktor Yushchenko last week, told reporters.

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[plasticsundance]

1. All is not as it appears ...

This might interest some:

http://antiwar.com/justin/

It gives the reader a different perspective on the situation, as opposed to the Western media take that this is a fight for democracy. It is titled The Yushchenko Mythos.

Here is a quote that might entice some to read the article:

"In any case, from the Gas Princess to the Boadicea of the "democracy" movement in Ukraine is a fanciful transformation, at best, but Western propagandists are counting on the American public's ignorance of the Ukrainian scene to pull off one of the biggest frauds since the selling of convicted embezzler Ahmed Chalabi as the Iraqi George Washington.

Few remember now that one of the alleged economic benefits of the "cakewalk" war was supposed to have been a huge drop in the price of oil: Iraq would be pumping as much and as fast as required by Washington, and the profits were going to finance the reconstruction. Well, that didn't exactly work out, now did it? So our grand strategists in Washington have turned to the legendary Caspian "Silk Road" to oil riches, reviving the dream of a Trans-Caucasian oil pipeline that will fill the gas tanks of Europe, bring down prices rapidly – and hand over control of much of the world's hydrocarbons to U.S. corporate interests and their allies.

Forget all this melodramatic folderol about Ukraine's "orange revolution" – and follow the money. The mythologizing of the Ukrainian "democratic""

Links are provided within the paragraphs of the article.

[Briar]

2. There's more about his supporters here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1362593,00.html

(An article by Nick Paton Walsh.)

[genieroze]

6. Wow, that explains why Bushco want's him to win, eom

[genieroze]

15. Please Read Here is another link

It's more detailed and many links to this subject

Opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko in the Ukrainian presidential elections is firmly backed by the Washington Consensus.

He is not only supported by the IMF and the international financial community, he also has the endorsement of The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) , the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace , Freedom House and George Soros' Open Society Institute , which played a behind the scenes role last year in helping "topple Georgia's president Eduard Shevardnadze by putting financial muscle and organizational metal behind his opponents." (New Statesman, 29 November 2004).

The NED has four affiliate institutes: The International Republican Institute (IRI) , the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs (NDI), the Center for International Private Enterprise (CIPE) , and the American Center for International Labor Solidarity (ACILS). These organizations are said to be "uniquely qualified to provide technical assistance to aspiring democrats worldwide." See IRI, http://www.iri.org/history.asp )

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411D.html

[podnoi]

16. What is not covered by the media

Indeed there is more to this story. Everyone sees the pictures of Kiev Krashatic square (most from the first night), but there have also been huge demonstrations for Yanakovich at the Train Station, and in Cities all over Eastern Ukraine that are not covered by the media.

Yushenko's supporters unjustly marginalize their Eastern Countrymen by calling them "Russians" (um, they are Ukrainians too) and making it sound like it is Russia's "will", not people's own concerns that move them to support Yanakovich.

A truthful discussion of what is motivating both sides would recognize that no-one on either side of the country appreciated the status Quo (Kuchma). His popularity rating was in the single digits! Why would so many be voting against Yushenko? Because he and his supporters appear to have absolutely no plans to include the other half of the country, and in fact exhibit rather strong feelings of prejudice against the other half.

It would be EXTREMELY EASY for Yashenko to garner the support of much of the East Ukraine by simply reaching out to them. Yushenko's platform sounds more like revenge (against the USSR) than Democracy with concern for all.

Can you imagine a candidate in the US who was dedicated to obliterating every part of the Hispanic culture in our country in the name of purity of culture? No Hispanic books in the library, no Hispanic TV on the airwaves, and then his followers declare that they will not be satisfied until every Hispanic influence on the country is removed? This is not simply about removing the influence of the USSR,.... People of Russian Heritage (and Polish and German) have been part of the country for CENTURIES.

The east is so concerned about this that they are working on a plan to seceed. But Yulia Tymoshenko (Yushenko's second hand) declared that she will not let them do that and will put them all in Jail if they try.
Yanakovich, on the other hand stood before his supporters and told them that if they spill their countrymen's blood he does not want to be their President. On the other hand Yushenko seems incredibly quick to plunge the country into "revolution".

Sounds much cloudier to me.

[TheLastMohican]

3. Jesus! What kind of BS are you posting, people?

I am an avid supporter of "orange revolution" in Kiev. I go there every day for a demonstration. I receive no money for this, nobody of the demonstrators does.
Moreover I pay my own money to buy medicines, clothes, food for those demonstrating their throughout the night.
It is sometimes -10 C outside at night.

How could you say this is american-supported coup when ukrainian people decided that their voting rights were violated and are calling a fraud - a fraud?

Don't look for a black cat in a black room when it it empty.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Is that you Kathy? Katherine Chumachenko? Is that you? n/t

[TheLastMohican]

5. A very smart comment indeed

:) I am a male!

[plasticsundance]

8. TheLastMohican, I may be new here ... but

You call something BS without addressing the issues raised in the articles. I think both authors in each article did a fairly good job of researching the topic.

Can you offer evidence to the contrary? For example, do you have evidence that Yushchenko did not defraud the IMF. Are you aware of the competition for oil rights and oil pipelines construction out from the Caspian Sea area? What are the players involved, and what are their interests? What role have they played since the fall of the Soviet Union and the proceeding years?

I will read your post, and will change my views based off the evidence and quality of your post.

I do not besmirch the efforts of all the protesters. However, neither does the role of the protesters, as noble as their efforts may be, change the underlying facts, the role of the various players, geoeconomic history, geopolitical, and geostrategic positioning.

[TheLastMohican]

9. I don't know much about geopolitics

All I know is that there are from 200 thousand to 1 mln people over at the central square of Kiev,Ukraine who don't care much about outside politics. All they want is to make their voice heard and properly counted.
Don't turn this into Russia vs. USA. This is freeperville all over again.

Ukraine is an independent country and Russia is violating every possible law now trying to secede several regions of Ukraine into Russia. Do you know how much the dumb idiot KGB Putin is hated in Ukraine now?
Come and see it with your own eyes, this is the will of the people.

[genieroze]

7. I think you are missing the point

If the shoe were on the other foot and Yushchenko was accused of stealing the election, you wouldn't have heard a peep from our media. Because Yushchenko is Bushco's choice, now there is election fraud. I'm pretty sure there was fraud but there was fraud in this country as well, yet you don't hear a peep from MSM. I depends on who our country supports is doing the fraud. Bush wants Yushchenko. I agree that fraud is wrong no matter who does it but Putin wants Yanukovich just like the reich wing in this country wants Bushco. Putins hands are just as dirty as Bush's. This whole thing stinks.

[TheLastMohican]

10. You are wrong

Yushenko openly supports withdrawal of Ukrainian troops from Iraq which are there now to help Bush troops.
Europe wants an open democratic country at its borders.
Do you know that the pro-russian candidate is having two criminal sentences under his belt? Do you want such a person to be a president of your country? Why do you wish the same fate for ukrainians?
Off to the barricades I go... This doesn't sound like a liberal site at all, more like free republic...:-(

[genieroze]

12. Yushenko is pro We$t.

Bu$h is pro Yushenko. How many Ukraine soldiers are in Iraq? How much money is at stake? Do you really think Bush gives a rat's ass about fair elections? He's in it for the endgame. Now if the Ukraine people really think there was fraud, more power to them for their effort to expose it. I don't like the hypocrisy of Bushco. I have nothing but respect for the Ukraine people speaking up for their rights, but Bush's concern is bull$hit. As a matter of fact, I wish our people, our media and our party had a fraction of the balls that the Ukraine people have.

[wordout]

13. go home. study the information posted in this thread.

you will curse the day that you knowingly allowed foreigners to stir dissent among your people in your own land. your country will fall be broken and never again achieve its former glory. you actions are bringing disaster upon yourself and your fellow countrymen, regrets yet to be experienced like many here in the states will suffer due to their own lack of perception in voting for an asshole.

expel the provocateurs from your land, and your nation will know peace; continue whoring with imperialists, and Ukraine will be reduced to a burned out cinder. the choice is yours..

Gort: Maringa!

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[seriousstan]

11. All I can see is people supporting the protests, not one side or the other

I am getting very little info about the positions of the opposing sides.

[plasticsundance]

14. seriousstan ... someone posted on another forum ...

and I thought it was an excellent article, looking at both sides. It also shows how tense the situation is or could become.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1378260_1,00.html

"Draped in a blue pro-government flag and swigging from a vodka bottle to keep warm, Viktor Kolukh was in no mood to compromise yesterday. A hefty miner with thick, tattooed hands, he had travelled 600 miles by bus from Ukraine’s heavily industrialised east with an unmistakable message for the opposition demonstrators on the streets of Kiev."

<snip>

"Yanukovych, who is campaigning for virtual reunification with Russia and Belarus to help President Vladimir Putin create a big Slavic power to counterbalance the European Union and America, represents the Slavophiles. The opposition presidential candidate, Viktor Yushchenko, represents the westernisers’ dream of joining the EU and Nato."