Marines: Fallujah Battle a Source of Pride (some sickening quotes)

[Khephra]

snip........

"Fallujah is going to be right up there among the most successful battles in Iraq," said Maj. Tom Davis, 45, of St. Cloud, Minn. "It's where the rubber meets the road. That is where our heroes did their best."

snip..........

"Fallujah has been a life-changing event for many of the Marines, fighting in an environment that is just unfathomable to anyone outside," said Bourgeois, an explosives expert who retired from active duty two years ago, but was recalled this year.

snip.........

"When we saw what the enemy did, what they were capable of doing, we were only more eager to do away with this pure evil," Bourgeois added. "Regardless of how many pockets of resistance are still out there, it will not sway our morale. Nothing can."

snip.......

Sgt. Wayne Doyle, 23, of Neversink, N.Y., said he naturally misses home.

"But I'd much rather be here with my Marines," he said. "And I'd do Fallujah all over again."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-iraq-fallujah-images,0,5357229.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

[Ruffhowse]

1. Yes, the killing was so fun. Let's do it again, OK?

[Khephra]

4. If that Sgt. really would rather be in Fallujah than at home

Then he's far gone. It might be better for the people here at home if he stays in warzones the rest of his life. He's not going to be close to normal back here, and I'm not even sure he realizes that there's even anything wrong with him. He's a "going postal" case just waiting to happen.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Careful Kef. I said something very similar once and was...

...nearly tarred and feathered here at DU.

All these soldiers will need who come back from indiscriminately killing human beings are some hugs and understanding, and then they will fit right back into society.

Yea, sure.

Don

[Khephra]

14. My ignore list is ready

;-)

But thanks for the advice, Don.

I really didn't mean it that much. I've been up all night and those quotes just set me off. I pray that everyone will be able to come back healthy and sound...and that this clusterfreep ends soon.

:hi:

[Zomby Woof]

107. The Marines are murderous psychopaths anyway

:evilgrin: There! No one will flame you or Don, as long as Zomby The Flame Lightning Rod is here!

Fuck the Marines and their culture of killing. Fuck their swallowing of the myth that they "fight for freedom" and "the American Way of Life". Fuck Americans who also buy that Big Lie.

They are trained to kill, and love it. All in order to make multinational corporations profitable abroad in new markets. The are hired goons for The American Empire.

Fuck America and its sick culture of soldier-sniffing and fascist wargasms.

There guys, how's that? ;-)

[signmike]

21. How many Tim McVeighs will come out of this

there was another thread a couple days ago asking. Here's one.

[okieinpain]

93. yeah, just wait until he loses a limb, and get's charged for room

and board.

[omulcol]

88. US soldiers would kill civilians, says Marine

"We were shooting up people as they got out of their cars trying to put their hands up," said Mr Massey. "I don't know if the Iraqis thought we were celebrating their new democracy. I do know that we killed innocent civilians." Mr Massey said US troops in Iraq were trained to believe that all Iraqis were potential terrorists. As a result, he had watched his colleagues open fire indiscriminately. In one 48-hour period, he estimated his unit killed more than 30 civilians in the Rashid district of southern Baghdad.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=591171

[Qanisqineq]

2. it was just like playstation!

I'm sure the freepers love to hear about all the death and killing of those "ragheads"! These marines that love killing give the majority of troops a bad name. Even the republican soldiers I know were sickened by the battle in Fallujah and have serious doubts about this war.

[louis-t]

45. I was watching "Band of Brothers" last night

and one of the commercials was for a very realistic war video game. Struck me as odd.

[Raskolnik]

91. On Veterans Day

they showed commercials for those games during "Saving Private Ryan".

Now THAT'S f'd up!

[okieinpain]

94. call of duty. sorry but in the world of video games. it's really something

to see.

[bluestateguy]

3. Whatever

If some Marine really wants to stay in Fallujah killing people then he can stay there for all I care, meaning that one less serviceman has to go over there.

They may think they are "fighting for our freedoms", but that is just demagogy meant to silence criticism of the Administration.

I no longer give a shit what happens to any of those troops who voted for Bush this year. From here on out they are getting what they deserve.

[Ruffhowse]

5. I'm sorry to say I'm also to the point of not caring about any troops who

voted for Chimpy. From here on out, if they are wounded or killed, I think that comes under the heading of "be careful what you wish for".

[okieinpain]

96. man, I wanted to say that. but I know all of them do not feel that way

but I really wanted to say that.

[NickB79]

6. F**K you, Maj. Tom Davis

Fucking Repug from my own home town of St. Cloud, no less. That's just the kind of image I like to associate home with.

[Ernesto]

27. What do you expect him to say?

He wants to become a Lt. Colonel, don't cha think?

[ElectroPrincess]

71. Exactly! You'll never here anyone from the Officer Ranks

saying anything remotely negative about * or his crusade entitled "Freedom on the March." We progressives must be part of the downtrodden. :(

[Just Me]

75. Aw. He's just a victim of the pentagon propaganda machine.

Doncha' know?

A brainwashed warrior helping to brainwash the American people.

Poor guy. :cry:

[Briar]

7. It revolts us

but it pleases those who voted for Bush. They will read this report and praise God, having abandoned all humane values.

This is the heart of darkness, and it's right in the middle of the supposedly civilised communities where we live.

[zann725]

26. But there are "War Crimes" tribunals. And the World WILL address this.

n/t

[Paleocon]

9. While I agree that those quotes are over the top....

I'm sure they were chosen for just that reason.

"It was a tough fight and I just want to go home." Doesn't make such a catchy headline.

Let's not be too tough on the troops. While I do NOT support their mission, I do want them to all come home safely. It would be nice if the thousands of Iraqis that we have killed could go home safely too... Every time I talk to one of them from my old unit I tell them to get out as soon as they can. Getting out was the best decision I ever made. If I hadn't made it I would be there right now.

It is up to us here at home to change policies and force our "leaders" to bring the troops home. Once the troops are there, they have no control. They do what they were trained to do and there is no one there to tell them it is immoral or wrong. All they hear is "Good job doing that killing, go kill some more."

It would be nice if our politicians would wake up and present some opposition. What's the point of having two parties when they act like each other and don't oppose each others initiatives???

[Hello_Kitty]

10. Every unit in the military

Regardless of the branch or type of mission, has at least one "Frank Burns" type. That's exactly who they are quoting in this article.

[ElectroPrincess]

72. Oh don't forget that obnoxious Mash character named ...

Colonel Flagg? Gee, it's not so amusing watching Flag meltdown in Mash reruns now because the real world characters are just too close to the mark. :(

[NickB79]

11. I'm sorry to say it, but I do NOT look forward to the troops coming home

I don't want to live anywhere near guys who took pride in the deaths of 100,000 Iraqis over the course of the invasion. I know not all of them have that opinion, but from articles like the one above, far too many seem to. Anyone who can take pride in the deaths of fellow humans, even if they killed in combat, doesn't seem to have it all together, IMO. I just wonder how many psychologically damaged young men will be coming back only to keep killing people here in the US? It happened after Vietnam, and it will happen after Iraq.

[NNN0LHI]

13. It happened after the first Gulf war too

Two combat veterans from that war were Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Amazing how quickly we forget these things.

Don

[ilovenicepeople]

30. And Tim McVeigh's doctor just happened to be the doctor for

the Columbine kids.What happens if the returning troops are told by Homeland security that the anti-war crowd is "pure evil" what happens then?

[NNN0LHI]

33. Won't work when the troops become the anti-war crowd

Until that time if someone wants to go off to the other side of the world to die in the sand for the oil companies there is nothing I can do or say to stop it. If they want to go that is their prerogative. When they have had their belly full of killing they will stop. I seen it happen once before. It was a beautiful thing to witness too. Especially from the standpoint of a 19 year old guy like me due to be drafted in early 1974.

Don

[saigon68]

50. THEY WILL KILL the ANTI-WAR CROWD

Then BLOOD will flow in the streets of AMERIKA. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NNN0LHI]

12. Actually IT WAS the voices of returning combat vets...

...who brought an end to that Holocaust we now remember as Vietnam. I know, because I was due to be drafted in 1974 and sent to the other side of the world to either be killed, or kill some poor bastard trying to get the US to leave his country and who had done nothing to me.

Don

[VLC98]

17. We need a Ron Kovic.

I was so hopeful that the Operation Truth ad, with the soldier missing his arm, might open people's eyes, but it was too little, too late to effect the election at least. I was born in 1966 and I'm not even American, so I know very little about Vietnam, but having recently watched "Born on the Fourth of July" I was struck by the amount of time it took for the opposition to get going. Also, if the movie was accurate, it was the anti-war movement that propelled Ron Kovic. How could a modern day Ron Kovic get the publicity needed when there is no visible anti-war movement?

[NNN0LHI]

18. According to the media of that time the anti-war movement consisted...

...of hippies, commy's, and other assorted misfits who's opinion meant very little. That all changed when the returning veterans began speaking up. Even the hardhats and the police were smart enough to not mess with them. It changed the tide.

Don

[VLC98]

19. Do you know the average age of...

the Vietnam hippy, commy, misfit protester? What I'm getting at is, were they mostly young people liable to be drafted? Will opposition to the Iraq war only happen when the draft is reinstated? This could go on for years.

[Paleocon]

20. Bingo!

That's the thing....

If all these young people were facing 12 months in Iraq they'd get off their asses and become anti-war.

Right now all anyone has to do is buy a new car and spend money to support the "war on terror"....

I hate the idea of a draft, but I think it is the only thing that will get people moving, get then energized...

[Straight Shooter]

31. Don't forget they also need to buy a yellow ribbon magnet for that new car

I hate those things, they are everywhere in my town. It's empty symbolism for most people, just a "make myself feel good" gesture. (I'm excluding those who actually do something for the troops.)

Empty little minds running around in overweight bodies, filling up big SUV gas tanks, driving to worthless little widget stores and spending their tax cut dollars, stuffing their fat mouths at fast food restaurants, then going home and watching Survivor and other such trash on their fancy HDTV.

Americans can be sooooo disgusting.

edit: I make typos when I'm angry

[Mad_Dem_X]

69. You hit the nail right on the head, Straight Shooter

Every time I see one of those yellow ribbon magnets, I cringe. They're f***ing EVERYWHERE. I often wonder if those people really support the troops or if, like you say, it's just a feel-good gesture.

[NNN0LHI]

22. Bad news. The draft is about to be reinstated

And this will go on for years. Don't kill the messenger.

Don

[__Inanna__]

38. Not that I disagree with you

but what leads you to this conclusion? You obviously have experience in this sort of stuff. I actually think Iran is just around the corner, and this will mean more troops required, but do you have add't info?

[NNN0LHI]

43. I should have stated it was personal opinion

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The US casualty rate over the past 20 months appears to be increasing. Which I think means the Iraqis are learning and improving their techniques. The ruthlessness of their attacks have surprised me too. I have concluded that they will be just as ruthless as they have to be to get us to leave. Its a dollars and cents thing really. As long as the US thinks that it is in its financial interest to stay, we will. When our illustrious leaders realize that the US is never going to recoup its losses, it will be time for "peace with honor".

But that could take a long time. Lots of thugs...er...ah..investors making a lot of money off this deal right now, so onward Christian soldiers. And it does not appear that there are enough able and willing people joining up so the only option will be to play out the selective service scam, and ride that nag until it drops. They will play that out until the average American figures out it ain't no more fun killing Iraqis if they are the ones who got to do the killing. That could take a while? Everyone is all patriotic right now and all that stuff.

Thats what I think anyway.

Don

[bobthedrummer]

98. Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern and others have stated that the draft

is coming back too.

You can take it to the bank, imo.

[ElectroPrincess]

74. No, once the draft is implemented the anti-war movement

will increase in strength exponentially. Why? Because Americans today are so "spoiled" by the comforts of the USA. Adults and teens alike will wake from their complacency comas and demand an end to this madness.

It's not our gutless wonder representatives, sad to say Democratic as well as republican, that MAKE DRASTIC CHANGES to our rule of law ... it's the TRUE masses of people who force these puppets to do their job.

IMHO it will take no more than a year or two into a fully implemented draft for the onset of this awakening. And no, nothing about this situation is going to be pretty.

[Carson]

46. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Draft end in 1971?

[NNN0LHI]

47. The draft ended in 1973

I turned 18 on March 7, 1973. The neo-cons of that day (by the way, they are the same neo-cons of today) were going to make me a bullet catcher in some jungle if they had their way.

Don

[Sara Beverley]

73. Our children have been successfully brain-washed to love war and hate

peace. To love America and hate everyone else. To love people who do evil and to hate people who do good. To love lust and greed and to hate discipline and sacrifice. Face it, there is no turning back from this mindset, only total destruction will rid the earth of such poison. Only and act of God (and that means the creator) can change this course of mankind because man will not do it on his own. America is a daily commercial for self-absorbtion, intolerance, racism,greed, and now brutal theocracy. Most of the western world and a good part of the disillusioned ME want to be just like us in the clothes they wear, the music they listen to, the food we eat, the cars we drive, the houses we live in, and the money that at leat 10% of us has. But are they willing to pay the price? The cost of de-humanizing themselves to become fodder for the corporate state? Why wouldn't they just fight to rid themselves from their own barbaric leaders and keep their best values and mores alive within their culture? By allowing the US to fight their battles they have substituted on evil for a multitude of greater evils that will spawn their own anihilation.

[Massachusetts]

15. There will always

be those soldiers who are misguided, and those soldiers who are ignorant. But, the new one is those soldiers who think they are in a "real life" video game.

This statement is not intended for those soldiers who do their best under dire circumstances to reflect what we as a Nation are really all about.

[Sideways]

16. This Pakistani Writer Has A Different Take

Saturday November 27, 2004 (1257 PST)
by Anwaar Hussain in the Pakistan Tribune

excerpt:

Though the carnage carried out by Hitler’s regime was on a different scale than that now being committed by the Bush administration, there are striking parallels. For the first time since the Wehrmacht swept through Europe, the world is witnessing a major imperialist power launching an unjustifiable war, placing an entire people under military occupation and carrying out acts of collective and visible punishment against civilian populace. The US media’s wretched connivance in this deception is incredible, as incredible as the fact that this war, based on undeniable lies as it was, was sold to the American people as the gospel truth ordained by God.

To be honest, George Bush is not the first US president ordering the state’s machinery to pulverize nations and peoples abroad. Even a hurried analysis of the American’s government’s conduct in the last century makes for a most damning indictment. Out of the US’s past foreign policy woodwork, crawl out numerous invasions, bombings, overthrowing governments, suppressing movements for social change, assassinating political leaders, perverting elections, manipulating labor unions, manufacturing "news", selling blatant lies, death squads, torture, biological warfare, depleted uranium, drug trafficking, mercenaries ... you name it.

This terrorizing of nations and individuals by various US governments has been going on full bore since at least the late 1890s, when Americans obliterated a million Filipinos to keep them safe from the Spanish. 60 million Native Americans, the children of a lesser God, were exterminated by the orders of earlier administrations throughout the 19th century. The difference with past is that George Bush does it in the name of his God, a God far superior to any other and sanctioned fully by his coterie. Ironically, both George Bush and his nemesis, Osama Bin Laden, refer to God almost equal number of times in their public pronouncements.

The United States went into Afghanistan to kill or capture Osama Bin Laden. They killed 10,000 innocent Afghans but could not find their man. They went into Iraq to discover and eliminate Saddam’s WMDs. They killed tens of thousands of Iraqis but found no WMD. They laid siege to the city of Fallujah to kill or capture Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi. The city and its inhabitants have been blown to smithereens but there is no Zarqawi. Is it not only too convenient? Next when they want to attack Pakistan, or Iran, they simply have to say that Bin Laden is taking refuge there. Just like the next Iraqi city awaiting the fate of Fallujah will be the latest refuge of Zarqawi; the WMDs too could next fly to Syria or may be even Saudi Arabia. Is one imagining things here? Or is it that the US imperialism is indeed now riding full time on the back of gargantuan lies?

After granting George Bush a carte blanche to do what he likes the American citizens, of course, continue their daily lives oblivious to what is being done in their name. Between their work places and the nearest fast food joints, they just do not have enough time to check back on the activities of the man who is playing the Terminator in the name of God and in their name.


more...
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=84915

[Guitarman]

23. Not seeing the sickening quotes

What I do see is a Marine who is not fighting for George Bush. Marines are very proud and loyal to their own. Many men in the history of war would rather stay with their units than leave them behind. Their loyalty to each other drives them more than the loyalty to some politician sitting in a comfy office.
On the battlefield, they are not thinking about George Bush or any politician. They are fighting to stay alive and to keep the Marine at his side alive as well. The entire thing about war is that to stay alive you have to kill the other guys out there who take up arms to kill you.
They are trained to kill the enemy and that is what they are doing. They do it because they have to. Not because they enjoy it or want to. To a man they all just want to make it through each day so that some day they can come home and get back to real life.

[Massachusetts]

24. Agree

:thumbsup:

[NNN0LHI]

29. I am not sure if sickening was the terminology I would have used

But I think what stood out to me was this quote:

Sgt. Wayne Doyle, 23, of Neversink, N.Y., said he naturally misses home.

"But I'd much rather be here with my Marines," he said. "And I'd do Fallujah all over again."

The good Sgt. says he would rather be in Iraq with his Marines than be home? Lets just say I find that troubling. Perhaps that is a natural human tendency? Personally I can't imagine myself preferring to be in a war zone over being home with my family. But I admit, perhaps I am the weird one? Whatever floats his boat I guess?

Don

[Guitarman]

41. Being in a combat zone...

with your comrades in arms for these guys is like being with family. I was never in the Marines, only Navy. But even there, the guys that you worked with and ate with and went ashore with were your family.

They went over there together and when it is time, they do want to come home. But I think that they want to come home together. There is no blood lust involved, it is the bonding of this group of men. That is what the military is partially about. You give up part of your sense of self in order to become a part of something much greater.

[saigon68]

52. Blowing up the Federal Building in OK CITY

Was just a BONDING ACTION. for Nichols et al.

[Guitarman]

66. And that is relevent because????

The military is just like any other part of Americana. You have an equal share of nutjobs there as you do in the post office or working at WalMart.

[daleo]

34. Psychological studies have shown this to be the case

Most soldiers immediate motivation has always been loyalty to whatever small unit of men they were attached to. This was also the reason that non-political Germans (especially those who were drafted) could fight for the Nazis.

Although, I think the moral justification for a war ("why we fight") does ultimately play an important role in motivation, especially at the higher unit of analysis of an army. Witness for example the refusal of the French Army to go on the offensive after Verdun, or the collapse of morale in the American Army in Viet Nam post 1970.

[Khephra]

39. I stand by my comment

Any person who would rather re-do Fallujah--what with all the innocents who died--than be at home with their family sickens me.

Could I have used another word? Sure. But when napalm is being used on women and children I think I have the right to be sickened by anyone eager to do it all over again.

Go Armed Forces and all that. My family has had many members in the military and I almost signed up too. I have nothing against a good men and women who are trying to do their jobs.

I won't, however, play around with PC language. Showing an eagerness to kill sickens me. End of story.

[Guitarman]

44. The concept of the military...

is not PC. The military, by it's vary nature is entirely committed to the act of killing. The primary mission of any soldier is to kill the enemy instead of being killed. Marines are trained to kill the enemy. That is their job. As far as innocent people being killed, that will never stop. It is impossible in war to kill only enemy combatants. Especially when it is so difficult to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Often it comes down to split second decision to pull a trigger. Sometimes mistakes are made and innocent people will be killed. But, if the soldier in the field takes the time to think about it, he is dead. Hesitation in war will get you killed. These marines are only eager to kill in an effort to keep from being killed themselves. If we were in their shoes, each and everyone of us would do the same thing.

[Khephra]

49. Yes, but would all of us be more eager to be there killing people

and to do it all over again than be with our family?

That's the sickening part. I totally understand about the fog of war and all that. I don't hold anyone to blame for what happens in the heat of combat.

Being outside of combat and wanting to re-do a fight than be with their family? That IS sick.

I've talked to a lot of people over the years who've been in combat. NONE of them were eager to re-do any of the battles they fought. NONE of them wanted to kill anyone. They all just wanted to go back home.

A person who tastes combat and wants more isn't the type of man that I want leading troops. That's the type that get military men and women killed.

[NCN007]

106. some Shakespeare...

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for who has shed his blood with me shall be my brother." -Henry V

No amount of money, desire for glory, or even love of country could make anyone go through combat like that again. But stress and especially working together through it bonds people together. The more stressful the environment, the tighter the bonds. He wouldnt want his fellow marines to go back into Fallujah while he stayed home because he would want to be there with his brothers while they endured hell.

This is all second hand, i have personally never been in or near combat

[ElectroPrincess]

76. The behavior of the professional military soldier is also

NOT immoral. You are presenting a Hollywood laden "full metal jacket" synopsis of war. One word: condescension. As an army veteran with a father and brother who are combat veterans, I'm NOT buying it.

[NNN0LHI]

79. I agree that Marines are trained to kill the enemy

So why are they killing Iraqis? Its not because they attacked us, is it? Its not because they were ready to attack us with WMDs, were they? So what makes the Iraqi people Americas enemy? Is it because they won't let themselves be completely dominated by a foreign countries military? Would you allow a foreign countries military to come into America and dominate you? Would you collaborate with the foreign troops?

Don

[ilife]

25. 'shot at by insurgents who are still hiding in some damaged structure'

"One minute they (Marines) might be handing out emergency supplies and a couple of steps away, they might be getting shot at by insurgents who are still hiding in some damaged structure," Wilson said.

that was the same problem the germans had in stalingrad...

[xerox]

28. Isn't fallujah

the place where all the beheadings and hanging burnt american bodies from the bridge took place?

[NNN0LHI]

32. Yea. Thats where the 4 well armed US mercenaries got snuffed

No one knows what they were doing fucking around in Fallujah, but Fallujah is just up the road a piece from Abu Ghurayb Prison, so perhaps they worked there in some capacity before their demise? They should have been back home here with their families. But you know what the offer of that big tax free money can do to a guy...and a gal who like to spend, spend, spend.

Don

[livinginphotographs]

42. Yes.

It's also where we're murdering thousands of civilians in retaliation.

Yup, napalming their kids will show 'em for messing with 'murika.

[Bouncy Ball]

35. Regardless of how the soldiers really feel

they are trying to deal with the reality they are faced with right now. I didn't particularly enjoy those quotes, and I worry about anyone who really MEANS it when they say they would "do it" (killing) all over again (yikes) but in some cases, it is bluster that is necessary to get from one day to the next.

The next hard part will be when they come home.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. Sorry but any bastard sick enough to slaughter again isn't someone

I want loose on our streets.

[Bouncy Ball]

55. He's being asked to slaughter.

There are ALWAYS going to be sickos in any group of people, the military is no exception. Unfortunately, war allows a person who is sick in the head and in the military to indulge in their sickness.

But I hold FAR more responsible the powers that sent them there to do the killing in the first place.

Please don't think I excuse soldiers who commit war crimes. FAR from it. But I reserve a fair share of my rage and anger for the government that is using the military in such a shameful and immoral manner.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. I agree..but he can decline

[saigon68]

51. A lot of these "SWEET HEARTS" are already War Criminals

Wait until they get back and KILL their Wives or Girl friends


OOPS you say its happening already.


YIKES YIKES.

[Bouncy Ball]

54. I understand what you are saying

but I hope you don't think I referred to them as "sweethearts."

[saigon68]

56. Nope----- not a chance

They are not only "Sweet-Hearts"</sarcasm> They are murderous thugs, and killers.

[Bouncy Ball]

59. Ah, gotcha.

Thanks. Just didn't want to be misinterpreted.

[Voltaire99]

60. Considering "bluster that is necessary to get from one day to the next"

That, I put to you, Bouncy Ball, is a rationalization.

You would prefer not to acknowledge that these are cold blooded killers crowing about the blood they have spilled. You wish to think that underneath the "bluster" lie the foundations of conscience, morality.

But, my friend, it ain't necessarily so. It is more likely that you are the one supplying the conscience and morality through projection, idealizing the presence of humanity in these sad empty husks--these blood-savages for whom killing is better than home.

I've a better idea: let's take them at face value. They rejoice in blood. OK. Believe them. Don't ennoble them. Believe them.

[Bouncy Ball]

63. I said what I said because I am the wife of a veteran.

I'm sure my own husband engaged in some talking smack in his day, when he was in theater. And I know for a fact he meant not a word of it. He was as scared shitless as anyone there. And certainly didn't want to kill anyone. He knew he would if he had to, but he really hated being there.

Now. It is true, as I have acknowledged a few times, that there ARE servicemembers who DO get off on this stuff. I have never denied that. But it is also true that there is a phenomenon that I described as "bluster that is necessary just to get through the days" that happens all the time among soldiers. It's not right to say the things they said. But war CHANGES a person. That is undeniable. If they have committed war crimes, put them on trial and punish them accordingly, definitely. I agree whole-heartedly. And that goes from the lowliest grunt up to the supposed CIC.

We can't look into the hearts and souls of these soldiers and see if they are actually scared shitless kids or people who really DO get off on the killing.

I still say I reserve the bulk of my rage for the assholes who sent them into an immoral, unjustified war in the first place. Which actually makes ALL of their acts of violence war crimes, but now I am rambling.

[Dangerman]

36. I told you we should not support ALL our troops.

Those idiot marines are cold-blooded murderers, I tell you. It makes me sick! :puke:

[wordout]

37. have a beer, son

When killing and fighting get them down,
They know their morale can't droop.
As long as they all relax in town
Before they resume with a bang and a boom
F Troop.

[iam]

40. I find it hard to believe

that these Marines believe Iraqis were living this way BEFORE WE INVADED!

[saigon68]

53. Voluntary trained killers--loving every minute of it

will be admired by no one when the wall of cards collapses and the smoke screen of "troop support" fades away after the corporations find they cannot make a profit off of this..

[pa28]

58. Let's not forget who is really to blame.

This could be some weak-minded kid who needed a way to pay for college and wound up with a gun in his hand. (O.K. maybe that's a stretch).

We live in the era of black and white reasoning. So, let me lay this one on you. Every murder, stolen relief dollar, napalming, civilian death etc. is on Bush's doorstep. This story is told a thousand times whenever there is war. So, when you launch a war based on a lie your leader is morally accountable for the death and suffering which must inevitably follow.

In other words I think the administration loves kids like this because they become scapegoats for the truly guilty.

[vincent_vega_lives]

61. No one asks anyone here to understand

or care or even give a shit about what really happens in war.
These men would die for each other, and have been, by the dozens.

(Most of) You are the same pieces of shit that spat on my father when he got back from Vietnam.

You can go back to your little protected fantasy lives now.

[wordout]

62. nobody here hocked on your old man.

[Bouncy Ball]

64. Couple of things:

A) I guess you have failed to bother to notice that there are some posters here, myself included, who are discussing WHY soldiers say these kinds of things.

B) What does the fact that they would die for each other have anything to do with the subject at hand? Some of them would, (probably most) and some of them wouldn't. They aren't ALL HUGELY heroic all the time. What a tall order. My husband was in the Army for over a decade and saw plenty of less-than-heroic acts.

C) This whole Vietnam vets getting spat upon is largely myth. Though some Vietnam vets did receive derision from especially hostile anti-war movement members, for the most part the problem is that society as a WHOLE didn't know what to do to help the Vietnam veterans. And so society did little to nothing. It didn't help matters that the VA hospital system wasn't even as good as it is now (wow) and that a lot of the veterans had a highly difficult time taking up vocations after coming home from such a nightmare. Counseling and career advice was few and far between.

IF your father really was a Vietnam vet and really WAS spat upon, I doubt anyone here would agree with that at all. You forget that the Democratic party counts many veterans among its members and this website is no exception.

That being said, if you are a bush voter, which I suspect you are from the tone of your post, why are you not fighting this war? I hear they are short of troops....

[vincent_vega_lives]

84. Re: Couple of things

A)Nope and I mentioned that. My comments are directed to the more onerous of the bunch.

B)Sure but none of the quotes indicate anything that would indicate anything other than soldiers/marines proud of their outfit.

C)Perhaps, and I doubt my father was actually spit on. (though he certainly claims he was spit AT, and at the very least was on the reciviign end of some nasty stuff) Heck even I was called "Baby Killer!!" in Downtown Boston while in uniform...and this was 1988! I agree that it was a perception of rejection by society as a whole.

IF your father really was a Vietnam vet and really WAS spat upon, I doubt anyone here would agree with that at all. You forget that the Democratic party counts many veterans among its members and this website is no exception.

He was. No haven't forgoten...but then I am certainly not adressing the Democratic party but certain members of the democractic underground.

That being said, if you are a bush voter, which I suspect you are from the tone of your post,

Really well I guess your need a tone perception adjustment as I am/was not a a Bush Voter.


why are you not fighting this war? I hear they are short of troops....

Funny you should mention that...

[ElectroPrincess]

77. Funny, my brother was a combat Vet in the 101st in Vietnam

and he NEVER was spat upon. That "spitting" urban legend is a tool for the right wing radicals to keep us fancy pants anti-war folks in our place.

No, that doesn't fly ... in masses, the vets were not unilaterally spat on ... check the facts and let's not get into that tired argument again, i.e., that horse has been beaten to death.

[vincent_vega_lives]

85. I agree the physical act of spitting

was an "urban legend". But the persecution of soldiers returning from that war by their own generation was not.

Perhaps you should read these accounts. At least four servicemen certainly were spat apon, and another had stuff thrown at him.

Unfortunately the statement that Vietnam Veterans were spat upon is true. When myself and three other recently returned Vets were on their way home we did get spit at in O'hare airport Chigago. It was a rather ugly scene and one I will never forget. It is perhaps why for 25 years I never spoke of my war experiences, it seemed that they were mine alone for me to deal with. I developed an isolation pose on the war and never let anyone in to my memories. That changed ever so slowly after Desert Storm when I finally saw that Vets were once again revered.
Fortunately when I did get back to my home town that type of behavior did not occurr, but a rather indifference to what I had done in the name of my country was the public stance. Now after 30 years I have come to cherish the experience, the comradery, and what I did so many years ago as what I had to do and if now judged wrong , so be it, my motives then were pure.
Rich McSweeney (doc) 1st Cav


In 1970 I was stationed in Japan at a remote communications Site for the Air Force. I got notice that my Mother was
sick and Doctors did not think she would recover. I left
to go home on leave from Yokota AB Japan on a Charter Flight
filled with AF, Nav, and Army personnel. We landed in
San Francisco, Ca and were told we had to go to Travis AFB
to get Further military flights. I was in civilian clothes
and walking out of the front of the terminal behind a Army
Sgt in uniform using crutches as he had lost one leg. As he
stepped through the door he had tomotoes and egges thrown at
him and was called baby killer and other insults. He was
hit twice before me and two others were able to get in front of him. We all walked together from there to a taxi while
the Airport Security Guards just looked on an grinned. There were about 60 to 70 people in the crowd outside the
airport Good people it did happen and I witnessed it.Just for the record I am a Vietnam ERA Veteran, not a Vietnam
Vet as I was never in country Served 1967-1987 USAF. My
best friend Dewey Ray Owens went Army and I went Air Force.
I visit my Friend Dewey Ray Owens from Andalusia Alabama every year at the Moving Wall in Melbourne Florida. I
received a pass from my Squadron in 1968 to go home to be
one of his pallbears as his family had asked if I could particiate in the ceremony.

God Bless All. William W. Jernigan, MSgt USAF Retired

I was a USN Corpsman who was waiting at a bus stop after taking part in a Formal Navy wedding as part of the Honor Guard in my Dress Blues. I was proud to have been asked by my friends to be part of their wedding.
While I was standing there waiting, thinking of the honor I had been blessed with, a Carload of my peers, drove up, scremed, cussed spat and called me a baby killer. All because I was in Uniform with my medical caduece on. It was the last time I wore My unifrom offbase when I didn't have to.
I know that those friends of mine never knew what happened and I wouldn't want to diminish their memories of the occaision. However, in having my Father ask me "Why aren't you wearing your uniform like you did when you cme home from Boot Camp?" Hurt. I told him, "Dad, If I get killed while I'm in the service, I'd rather it be over in Vietnam. I wouldn't want you or Mom know that it was our own people who killed me. It isn't safe. I want you to know that if I die, that it was as a Corpsman trying to save a life and doing what I was trained to do. I'm still proud of being a Navy Coorpsman. I'm just not so proud of the American People for their actions."
I was almost killed at Khe Sahn, April 68 about 9 moonths later in the performance of my duty of trying to save a life who I was not able to save. Still hurts today wishing instead of my friend dying that it was me.
Charles D. Bunner, aka Doc Bunner


In Apr 72, getting "riffed" out of the Army as a CPT, I flew from New York City to Puerto Rico to register for college. In those days, you had to wear the uniform to get the discount tickets. With a 1st Cav patch on my left shoulder, and an SF patch on my right, with all the badges and gongs, I was not hard to miss. Everybody I ran into in Puerto Rico, mostly total strangers, bent over backwards to get me to my destination (a small college in the hill town of San German), get me registered, and get me back to San Juan to catch my flight back to NYC.Several people threw me in their cars and drove me several towns over to speed me on my way. Arriving back in NYC, I took a bus into the city. As I was getting off the bus (a greyhound type affair), a young, hippie looking girl who had been eyeing me strangely throughout the trip, suddenly spun around and tried to spit on me. Apparently her mouth was dry from her nervousness, and she made several more quick attempts before rushing away (As if I was going to track her down and kill her.) I got sprayed by a light spittle. My initial reaction was anger, but she was so pathetic looking and raggedy that I could only feel sorry for her. Several of the older passengers expressed their apologies to me, and I told them it was no big deal. The fact that I was an officer may have had something to do with it. (As for the girl, I suppose she died of an overdose on some street corner somewhere.) By the way, when I shipped out of Travis for Vietnam in very late '67, several real Hippies from San Francisco wished me luck, gave me the peace sign, and said" "Hey, hope you make it back, man."
Shaun Darragh


I was one of the Other Side, a tie-dyed hippie, during the late 1960s. I am proud to remember that the one way I differed from my peers was regarding the question of military service, which I believe in and still believe in. I went to anti-war rallies and was offended when some of the hippies made them anti-military rallies. My cohorts would brag about how they would spit on the National Guard members called out to contain them, or on returning veterans. There were also hippies who pelted them with flowers (not nicely, either). I myself had friends who served in Vietnam and came back traumatized, only to meet terrible prejudice not only from the hippie element but from the "establishment." They couldn't get jobs, and some of them came back from Vietnam with drug habits (hearing their stories, I can see why).
No one is exaggerating about the mistreatment of our military during those years. It was a shameful period in our history NOT because of our involvement in the Vietnam war but because of our treatment of the men who were fighting and dying for us. I think the outbreak of fanatic patriotism during the Gulf War was largely a "backlash" by people ashamed of the way we had treated our soldiers during the 1970s.
Elaine


I landed at Travis AFB in July of 69. I was met by LT. Jim Farwell and his wife. Jim and I had shared a house in Olympia while stationed at Ft. Lewis the year before. Jim served as a platoon leader for a Mech Company with the 25th, was wounded twice, received two Silver Stars and then was stationed back at Oakland Army depot on a hardship reassignment. He had spotted my name on a manifest and managed to get a message through to me setting up our get together.

We went into San Francisco that night. I had no civies so I wore my "class B" khakis and my field jacket. (San Francisco in July is anything but warm.) We were walking toward a restaurant on Nob Hill when a group of 5 five young boys approached us: long hair, peace jewelry, bell bottoms, one in a field jacket, one with a Navy pea coat. I judged them to be about 15 - 16 years old. As they passed us I heard several comments in muffled voices about, "killer", "murderer" and the ever popular "fxxxing Nazi." I then heard the unforgetable sound of someone "making a hocker" and spitting. When we got to the restaurant Jim looked at the back of my uniform, and there, about three inches above the belt line, sat the remains of the phlegm.
I came back to mixed reactions. I was back in college in less than a week, where I quickly came to the conclusion that being a Vietnam Veteran was not cool. I had two job interviews for teaching positions that year in which I was asked about the, "drug problem with Vietnam veterans." (As if there were no drug problem among high school and college students of the 60s and 70s.)
In all I would have to say that most reactions to my service were positive, that most people welcomed me home. But the incident in San Francisco set a tone in my mind. I paid too much attention to that incident, and to those who spoke ill of the military and of veterans and not enough to the many people who welcomed me, thanked me or congratulated me. That made the trip back "home" longer than it had to be.

Forrest Brandt

[Ernesto]

65. For all you non combat folks.....

What would you be saying if you were wearing a US Maine's boots in Iraq-nam?..... You want the truth? "You couldn't stand the truth".
AKA: "walk a mile in my shoes".

[NNN0LHI]

68. No. Its YOU who can't stand the truth

If I were a soldier in Iraq right now I would be asking myself why am I here? I would say to myself, I thought we came here to protect America from being attacked by Saddam and his massive stockpile of WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Remember them WMDs? That was the reason America with its most powerful military in the world invaded and occupied a much weaker country. Did you forget? Did these soldiers forget? I didn't. So there you have it. I answered your question. Now you answer mine. Why aren't these soldiers asking the reporter "what are we doing here in Iraq killing Iraqis by the thousands almost 2 years after we have found out that we were wrong about Saddam's WMDs"?

Don

[Ernesto]

81. Don, what I think you are missing here is

that a guy like you is far too sophisticated to ever end up in a place like Iraq. USMC also stands for "Uncle Sam's Miss-guided Children", a term that all Marines are familiar with. These kids didn't join up because their lives were going great back home. The Marine Corps, for many, is like joining the foriegn legion. It is an escape with no questions asked. For me it was a way to escape what was happening to me & my peers in the 60's: drug use & possibly jail. In essence, when a young guy joins the Marines, he has joined a new gang where you are required to display the macho persona of the tribe. Unfortunatly these young, hard bodies are used for missions that sicken you AND me. My experience in Vietnam changed me forever. I realized that we were the asshole invaders. Sadly for me, I was still a Marine with nearly 2 years left in my enlistment. It was either play the game or go to Portsmouth (navy prison).
Bottom line I guess is that these kids are in a world of shit. Don't assume that their words are very well thought out. My heart goes out to them even when they appear to be less than civilized.

[FredScuttle]

105. I'd be like Lance Cpl. Abdul Henderson, USMC

and refuse to serve in this illegal, unjust war. Cpl. Henderson is facing jail time, but he retains his integrity and his humanity.

[Massachusetts]

67. BOTTOM LINE

is, that OUR men and women in uniform are needlessly put into HARMS' WAY with this Bu$hco venture. THIS IS NOT WHAT OUR MILITARY IS INTENDED FOR. "preemptive strikes" under the guise of a more secure America, PAYING OUR HARD EARNED MONEY TO CORPORATIONS LIKE HELLIBURTON, BLACKWATER, etc. etc.is not and never has been in the best interests of OUR country.

SO KNOCK OF THE COL. JESSUP MOVIE QUOTES AND SARCASTIC BARBS, AND FOCUS ON HOW OUR MEN AND WOMEN IN UNIFORM, HOW OUR HARD EARNED TAX DOLLARS, AND HOW OUR REPUTATION IS BEING DISCREDITED BY BU$HCO AND ALL THE CORPORATE PIGS AND POLITICIANS WHO FEED FROM OUR TROUGH.:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: GET PISSED OFF AT THE RIGHT TARGET NOT PISSED ON!

[wovenpaint]

70. Thanks- well said!

America has, collectively, been suckered.... :grr: :grr: :grr:

[Massachusetts]

82. Oh Ya

:thumbsup: :toast: There isn't enough ANGER to make a change yet. IMHO

[Ernesto]

83. Thanks Mass! & welcome!

Those "boy scouts with guns" didn't start this shit, bush did! That's why I was so god damned upset when it began. I knew about all this crap that is part of war. War sucks much more than the sheep or the non-combatent chimp knew (or cared).

[omulcol]

89. Excellent comment Massachusetts.

[Bragi]

78. I blame Powell

Colin Powell was apparently the main proponent of the use of "overwhelming force" as a war tactic. This strategy means you turn combat essentially into a mass slaughter of the enemy through the use of disproportionate force.

I will leave aside what this means in terms of the courage and bravery of those engaged in this slaughter, since it seems to me that this tactic depends for its success not on individual bravery, but on having the will and the wealth needed to put massive forces into the field.

However, it also seems to me that this approach leads inevitably to killing more of the enemy than is actually necessary to secure any military objective. Doing this is, of course, a war crime.

I've not understood why Powell was never called to account for this, or why no-one talks about it. I think the soldiers quoted in the article are just caught up in the ethos that occurs when disproportionate force becomes the modus operadi of war.

[NNN0LHI]

80. The Powell doctrine also includes the necessity of an exit plan

Obviously Powell's presence in this administration was strictly decorative. Because they sure weren't listing to him or his policies.

Don

[NCN007]

99. What strategy would you reccommend?

A fair fight? No one will fault Powell for trying to win by the largest margin possible. The job of military commanders is to complete the objective while getting the fewest friendly troops killed. Winning is not a war crime, nor is killing insurgents if they are still fighting, whether or not the objective is "secure."

[NNN0LHI]

108. Naked aggression is a war crime

Some fellows at Nuremberg found this out the hard way. What has Iraq done to America to deserve being invaded and occupied for nearly two years by our military?

Don

[rhyfeddu]

86. The quoted soldiers don't want a reality check...

...When you are forced to do aberrant things, you are quadruply invested in the reasons given to do them. You cannot afford to question them. If the reasons are wrong, you are wrong. If the enemy is "evil" - even those used-to-be-human remains you step over daily - you are good. Have to keep status quo. I don't believe that, but that rationalization would seem pretty precious to anyone who's soul isn't dead yet.

Then there are the scary zombie fucks who have swallowed hell and like it.

Either way, the media is only going to seek out those who say
"War! Yee-ha!", to quote.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raskolnik]

90. You're a lovely human being.

Congrats.

[Zerex71]

92. Well, in that case...

....transfer tubes for every last one of those guys! They're sickening, stupid, white trash fighting a rich man's war. The problem is, they're dumb, arrogant and armed. They get what they deserve with attitudes like that.

[saigon68]

100. Here is their Handiwork

THEY CAN'T EVEN CLEAN UP THE CORPSES BEFORE THE DOGS EAT THEM.

[Ernesto]

101. white trash? What kind of stupidity is that?

Any idea of the USMC racial make up? Apparently NOT.

[Zerex71]

109. You can say what you want, but there's a lot of white trash

in the military. I mean, who else would take them? So keep your "stupidity" comments to yourself, stay on topic, and discuss the issue.

[NCN007]

102. and your hateful opinion

and stereotyping of the marines are whats making many left-leaning soldiers and military supporters doubt the democratic party

[Zerex71]

110. Stereotyping?

Hmm, let's see...every time I see a quote about a Marine -- from the "so-called liberal media", no less -- it talks about how they have blind allegiance to their commanders, and gleefully perform the tasks they are told to. Fair enough that that's "just the way the military is". But the fact that these are sentient beings, and they take glee in what they do, is the reason I call for something catastrophic to make some of them start THINKING about what it is that they are doing. It's the same reason why I don't think 9/11 was hardly enough to wake this country from its damned ignorant stupor. Certainly one does not wish for more death, but whatever it takes to right this self-annihilating country, I'm for it, whether that's a huge economic depression or a civil war. Whatever.it.takes.

[cyberpj]

95. Photos of Fallujah dead show civilians shot in bed, surrendering

Seen this site?

Series of photos of city's dead show civilians shot in bed, surrendering

Two weeks ago an Iraqi man was allowed into Fallujah by the U.S. military to help bury bodies. He was allowed to take photographs of 75 bodies, in order to show pictures to relatives so that they might be identified before they were buried.

(snip)
One of the family members who was looking for dead relatives, shared these photos which were taken from that book.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, he told of what he saw in his village during the last few weeks.

“The Americans shot every boat on the river because people were trying to escape Fallujah by the river. They shot all the sheep, any animal people owned was shot. Helicopters shot all the animals and anything that moved in all the villages surrounding Fallujah during the fighting.”

He said that none of the roads into Fallujah, or around Fallujah were passable because anyone on them was shot. “I know one family that were all killed. There are no signs on these roads that tell people not to use them-so people don’t know they aren’t supposed to use them. No signs in English or Arabic!”

From Guerrilla News Network
http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=980

[Bouncy Ball]

103. Oh my God.

Oh geez. Those pictures are pretty awful. For some reason, the ones that really get me are the photos where you can tell they urinated on themselves either right before or right after death. Somehow makes it so much sadder, to me.....

[Zerex71]

111. Yep, when I saw this, for the one-thousandth time, I asked myself,

"Tell me again why I'm supposed to 'support the troops'? Tell me why I'm supposed to swallow this National Socialist pablum dispensed by the government? Anyone? Bueller?

[kc.ink]

97. yep, I'm sick now, logging off. . . . . . . eom

[Swamp Rat]

104. Psychopaths... soon to be state troopers,

coming to a state near you.

[genieroze]

112. "But I'd much rather be here with my Marines,"

Don't worry jarhead, Bushco will make your dreams come true. You will never leave.

[USAFORME]

113. I admire their courage

I see nothing wrong with the comments on the clip.

"Sgt. Wayne Doyle, 23, of Neversink, N.Y., said he naturally misses home.

"But I'd much rather be here with my Marines," he said. "And I'd do Fallujah all over again." "

This is a brave and honorable thing to say.