Germans Lapping Up 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

[Nottingham]

Germans Lapping Up 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sapa-AFP Tuesday 9th September, 2003

Conspiracy theories on the September 11 attacks are gaining ground in Germany two years on, with books claiming that the United States government was behind the atrocities climbing bestseller lists.

Thanks to a handful of new "non-fiction" works in bookstores, wild accusations have gradually become part of public debate amid a sizeable minority in Germany, home to the so-called Hamburg cell that in 2001 produced three of the suicide hijackers.

Although each book has a different take on the events of that day, they share the premise that the government of US President George Bush planned the kamikaze jet attacks or allowed them to happen to advance a radical foreign policy agenda.

Frankfurt-based publishing house Zweitausendeins boasts the runaway success of Mathias Broecker's book Conspiracies, Conspiracy Theories And The Secrets Of September 11 on its website, with more than 105 000 copies sold in 10 months. A follow-up volume has just hit bookstores.

more....http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=f4577092eb3c2eba

I found this Amazing
"A survey produced by the respected Forsa institute and published in the weekly Die Zeit in July found that 31 percent of Germans under the age of 30 believed the US government was directly involved in the September 11 attacks."

WOW the Germans are pretty smart! :bounce:

"

[Frances]

1. Bush's actions have been so irrational

that people are looking for an explanation. For example, while 70% of Americans believe Saddam was responsible for 9/11, this is simply not true and the people in other countries know this. The only countries where a sizable number of people believe that Saddam had WMD are the U.S. and Britain. I expect these are the only countries that have populations who believe that the U.S. invaded Iraq to bring democracy.

[Democrats unite]

2. With anti Americanism latley...

I have plenty to say about Germans. But since It only seems ok to trash America I will keep my thoughts to myself of Germany. And if you want to know where this attitude is comming from, I just finsihed reading the thread from a person called "Big Guy" I have no Problem with with a person for being critical of American policy, I do have a problem with a person lumping all Americans into that policy.

[Nottingham]

3. We are not trashing America! We are trashing BUSH!

A Big Difference :bounce:

[Democrats unite]

4. Some of you have a funny way of showing it.

eom

[Nottingham]

5. I haven't trashed America! All I said is that the Germans were

smart! Bush has alot of explaining on 9/11 but has never done it!
and the Iraq war with all its false reports on WMD is it a wonder the Germans are paranoid and suspicious! :bounce:

They lived through Hitler! Remember

[Democrats unite]

8. Trust me when I say my Family remember's all to clearly

About Hitler!

[joeybee12]

6. Hey--Democrats Unite!

Go back and read Big Dog's post--I cannot fathom how you interpreted his innocuous comments as bashing America. Calm down.

[Democrats unite]

7. I am not trying to flame or start trouble with anyone here.

But on another board I made the comment that even though I hate the policies of the Bush Administration and what it is still doing to America, As an American I still love America for what it was and what it still can be. A person from New Zealand plainly stated that all Americans were the same greedy, and we all had a little Bush in us just because we are Americans.

I am An American I love my Country as do alot of other Americans that can't stand Bush. When I read certain people's posts here I do detect an underlying hate towards Americans in General. Although the above mentioned jerk is not on this board as far as I can tell, I reserve the right to be skeptical of some people here.

[Frances]

9. And we reserve the right to be sceptical of you

In fact, everyone should have a certain amount of scepticism. It would be stupid not to do so.

[Democrats unite]

11. Frances, point well taken.

eom

[Nottingham]

10. democrats unite its good your talking about your feelings!

Being an American is something to be proud of Dang we helped this world defeat Hitler and Japan and World War I

I'm proud to be an American

I'm just ticked off Bush is our President

But yes you are right there are many here who are from other nations but isn't that a good thing :bounce:

[Nottingham]

12. I am proud of our service men & women risking their lives!

Their doing an Awesome job! Its just that I don't agree that they should be there

I lived through Vietnam! A Horrendous Mistake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want us to do the same thing in Iraq! :bounce:

We had Nixon in Vietnam and Now we have Bush in Iraq

[toopers]

29. Didn't we have JFK and LBJ in Vietnam also?

[Sequoia]

31. JFK wanted out of Vietnam

and LBJ bombed Cambodia in secret, and Nixie just kept 'em coming...ka-boom! When will RWers say "Stop!".

[Voltaire99]

30. No reason to be proud of US troops in Iraq

Killing civilians is no occasion for pride. Invading another nation on a dishonest pretext is no occasion for pride. Destroying a functioning society--leaving it in such ruins that the civilians pine for their days under a vicious dictator--is no occasion for pride.

It's a shame US troops are in Iraq, put there by some of the world's slimiest politicians. Those troops are volunteers, kids mainly, generally poor and working class, and they have been lied to and brainwashed into believing a) they would be welcomed by Iraqis as liberators; and b) that they would come home quickly after establishing "democracy." So in a sense, they are victims, too, although not victims to the same extent as the Iraqis whose lives they are taking and country they are colonizing.

Nobody has any reason to be proud of US troops in Iraq. Sympathy, sure. Compassion, sure. Even remorse. But not pride. Not gratitude. They are not protecting our nation. To the contrary, they are making the world more dangerous for Americans, and we are all likely to suffer the results of this catastrophe for decades to come, just as with Vietnam. They should be brought home at once; God help us otherwise.

[Democrats unite]

14. Nottingham, yes it is a good thing

I feel people of all Nations, have alot to offer. The only point I want to make here and to stress it is, like in other Countires all Americans are not the same. If I were to say that the French were all the same and thought alike, not only would that make me look stupid, it's just wrong.

[Nottingham]

17. I totally agree with ya Democrats Unite! Lets Not Label people

We are all different and I blame Bush for all this anger & Meaness. America had great respect and he has hurt America's reputation in the world! :bounce:

[piece sine]

92. Right on!

Sometimes the posters here leave one with the distinct impression itr is NOT OK to speak well of the United States or it's citizens.

[rman]

19. you have a funny way of reading

.

[Sterling]

56. There is a "patriot" here among us

Who has been logging on under different names and chastising DUers for being "anti-American" This "person" has also been sending me harassing PM's.

I will not say that this is the same person because we are not allowed to call out Freepers but I will say I am EXTREMELY disappointed in the DU mods for not taking care of this problem.

[dutchdemocrat]

48. I am the Dutchman who wrote the thread that pissed of 'bigguy'

And I quoted only American sources for what was placed. Once again the messenger is being shot.

I used no Anti-American rhetoric in the lead at all and I still cannot understand why Europeans (not UK in this case) cannot post arguements against Bush in DU without dealing with hardcore, longtime, DU'ers who are chewing on the repug anti-Euro hysteria like a baseball pitcher with moldy tobacco in his mouth.

I DON'T hate Americans! I have lived in Ft. Lauderdale... no not taking flight lessons... I have lived in Vancouver, BC and been to Seattle many times. I am not ignorant of America or Americans. I judge people for who they are.

Nationalism, which you are portraying, means nothing to me. I have lived and worked all over the world, independently, and don't really feel part of anywhere having parents that straddle the 'Old Europe' and the 'New World'. I hate to resort to Freeper language here to explain and defend myself.

I don't like the current government of the USA (as many European's don't) in the light of things, globally speaking, Bushco does not want to work with anyone on anything including Kyoto, Geneva Convention, War Crimes, International Court, Weapons Reduction, NAFTA, WTO, etc etc etc...

But I don't hate Americans. And to be judged as an ignorant one by DU'ers for posting provocative images of mainly dead Iraqi women and children from an AMERICAN website which I found from Bartcop.com... it really is upsetting for me. I am not very happy about it.

The thread is here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=299246

Once again, freeper mentality is leaking.

Why don't we talk about 'Germans' then? Or French politics or Italian? I read it every day along with America and British news?

[Ganja Ninja]

13. I just don’t believe the Bush’s were involved in the 9/11 attacks.

It’s a little too violent and a little too messy for them. There was too much to loose and they weren’t cost effective. Now the anthrax attack that’s another story it was more their style. I really think they were involved and then abandoned the plan after 9/11 made the scheme obsolete.

[Nottingham]

15. Ya Bush was taking Cipro before the Attack!

That was suspicious wasn't it?

I think Bush has explaining to do on why there was delays in the Air Force on shooting down the planes....Where was the AirForce we never got any explanations!

[joeybee12]

16. But the Bushes knew more prior to 9-11 than they're letting on

In August ASS-croft stopped flying commerical airplanes because he was specifically warned of an attack.

Condi-liar Rice has never come clean about what she gave Dumbo in that infamous August security memo.

They knew, and were unable--because they DIDN'T PREPARE--to stop it. That's the real scandal--incompetence at the highest levels of our fraudulent government!

[pansypoo53219]

18. yes

they were prepared for anything, just didn't want to do to much to prevent it. then he would have to do his fucking JOB. and that means WORK. Bush work? BWAH ha ha ha ha!

[Ganja Ninja]

25. They knew something might happen and they did.....

the republican thing. Look out for #1 and fuck everybody else. That’s not the same as planning the attack.

[HaThorAtor]

108. Remember Michael Meachers comment in British Guardian

URL: http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,1036685,00.html

We would not put it past Dubya and his mob that they would use any kind and intensity of violence on anybody to come closer to their goal of global US-leadership.

As we say in Germany: "Die gehen über Leichen" (they walk over bodies)

And in all that, they are messy as well as they act messy.

Greetings from Good Old Europe

[crissy71]

122. not involved but

turning a blind eye to rummy +wolfie + perle's "pearl harbor event"

[Dirk39]

20. During the last weeks, a lot of newspapers, magazines and

TV-Magazines here in Germany have started to analyse these "conspiracy theories" and the people, who are behind it, showing, how unqualified their "facts" are. One Magazine has done a good job by just picking the 5 most prominent issues, the conspiracy-theories repeat again and again, proving that they are wrong and that these people have done no serious work, to really find out, what was happening.
As an example, they were interviewing one guy, who made a photography about half an hour after the Pentagon attack, showing parts of a plane. And there was no chance that anybody could have posed the parts there. It was a very crowded place and a lot of people were there. They even asked him, if one of those conspiracy-theorists ever interviewed him: "No!".
The most disgusting part of those theories might be, the statement that no jews were in the WTC. Lists are there with hundreds of names. But these idiots don't care and just repeat it again and again.
A lot of those theories are US-imports and a lot of DUers seem to share parts of them.
These books even create a new style. They are not so stupid to sell their theories as the truth or facts, every of their statements starts with "couldn't it be possible that..." And they mix this quasi-fiction with some kind of fragments of a self-reflecting media-theory.
I think, the way 9/11 was used by the Bush-Administration to push their agenda is really a scandal and it's just tasteless and disgusting, how they have instrumentalizd the killing of thousands of people. I would go as far as stating that some members of the Bush Administration were happy that 9/11 happened. But it wasn't an inside job. I rather fear that the serious questions that have to be asked, get burried in a mess of unqualified conspiracy-theories.
70% of the germans believe, that the official version, the Bush administration was offering, lacks evidence and that they are hiding facts. I'm one of them. Hey, for the first time in my life, I share something with 70% off all Germans, something must be wrong.
I think those people who are seriously interested in asking questions should oppose those conspiracy-theories more than everybody else.
Greetings from Germany,
Dirk

[ScrewyRabbit]

23. Americans love conspiracy theories, too

For example, the 69% of Americans who believe the neo-con conspiracy theory linking Saddam Hussein to Al Qaeda!

Gruess aus Kalifornien!

--David

[MetaTrope]

24. The funny thing is

the anti-"conspiracy" people think an "inside job" means CIA and FBI support, government agents on the planes, millions in financing, etc. etc.

When all it would have actually taken to get a dozen fundamentalist wackos with box cutters some airline tickets is a phone call or two between former business partners in Kennebunkport and Saudi Arabia.

[reorg]

34. tv-magazine trash with an agenda

You say that

"TV-Magazines here in Germany have started to analyse these "conspiracy theories" and the people, who are behind it, ..."

probably with reference to the ARD/Panorama hit piece

http://www.ndrtv.de/panorama/20030821/verschwoerung.html

of a few weeks ago which sought to discredit everyone who doubts the "official" conspiracy theory by implicitly putting the neonazi label upon them. It was a disgusting display of gutter journalism and had nothing whatsoever to do with objective investigation and reporting.

The journalists attacked are of well repute, one is a long-time reporters of a major tv station (WDR) another one, Broeckers, a founding member (along with the current Federal Minister of the Interior) of the Tageszeitung, yet another one "behind" so-called conspiracy theories was a long-time editor with the major national newspaper Frankfurter Rundschau, and finally, the most eminent member of the crew, is Mr. von Bülow, a former Federal Minister of State and long-time secret service supervisor in the German Bundestag, who still is a member of the ruling SPD and presents his case in a very reasonable manner.


What did this Panorama hit piece do? They picked a few claims (out of literally hundreds), not at all "the most prominent" as you claim, and checked them back. Miserably.

1. The plane parts at the Pentagon. Only interesting for those who doubt that a 757 hit the Pentagon. Is it substantial for claims of foreknowledge and government involvement in the terrorist attacks? Absolutely not. Okay, some claim it is strange that so little, if any, plane parts were found. Not a very "prominent" thing, but okay, the Panorama reporter took a flight to Washington and he did interview the photographer of one these parts. What did he say? He said he was at the Pentagon just 12 minutes after the plane crash. So what? This proves exactly what? If these pieces were planted, as some people claim, wouldn't they have to do that as early as possible? What do we know of the photographer? Is he reliable? Panorama checked none of that. All they did was asking whether he "believed" that the pieces could have been planted and he said no. This proves absolutely nothing.

2. 6 hijackers still alive today. Is this claim essential to the question of foreknowledge or direct government involvement in the attacks? Again: not at all. It is an oddity, and it is well established that there were several independent news reports to this effect. Nobody doubts that. So what did Panorama do? This time they had not the resources to do the checking themselves, they asked some other, rather obscure journalist who claims to have talked to the families of all hijackers. He says that all families (except one, Atta's family) have accepted the fact that their offspring were involved in the hijacking. This journalist (I never heard of before) does not specifically say what family he talked to at what specific point in time, he does not even mention the names and who in these families he had been talking to, he does not clear up the apparent mix-up or misunderstandings, he just says "believe me, I talked to all families, they say the hijackers are dead ..." and that's it. These are "qualified" facts?

3. Faked phone calls. Von Bülow claims it is technically feasible for the phone calls to have been faked. Investigates Panorama: they show snippets of a documentary where the recipients of those phone calls are being interviewed. Huh? What do they think to prove? That, since phone calls were received, they could not possibly have been faked? Another prime example of quality reporting and BS by Panorama ...

The other claims or questions Panorama "investigated" on are even less significant and not even worth mentioning.

The most prominent issues, however, were not even touched by Panorama. Read e. g. the article by the former British environment minister Michael Meacher in the Guardian (September 6, 03)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0%2C3604%2C1036571%2C00.html

- or just take your blinders off and take a look at what investigative journalists REALLY reported. Instead of parroting what was said on Panorama.

[Turley]

35. Îf you don't like that one

try this week's Spiegel. It's the cover story and the article ran about ten pages. Did a fair job of destroying the credibility of most of these books. They did a very good job of re-interviewing witnesses to show how the conspiracy theorists edit interviews down to only the snippets which may sound incriminating and otherwise twist and contort facts and eyewitness testimony to support their theories.

I personaly believe that the powers that be in Berlin have become a little embarrassed at the gullibility of the Germans and how easily they've embraced all of these conspiracy theories. I'm sure someone fairly high up had a discreet word with some leading mainstream media outlets and prodded them tho debunk this bunch of junk.

OTOH you seem to have bought this bunch of piffle hook, line, and sinker. I suppose you must be easily impressed by the resumes of those who penned these, uh, works. All I can say is, lass es schmecken.

[Nottingham]

39. Well it not just the Germans who are suspicious? Americans too!

Cause when you find out there

ARE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION

AND KELLY tells ya they lied about the WMD and Niger Uranium

Top Official of Britain found Dead after he testifies

And we find those pics Colin Powell showed the UN were WRONG

and you see AMERICA going after Hans Blix and he was right


Ya Suspicious and Maybe Read to Believe Conspiracy Theories
I don't know why the Freakin Hell they would be so gullible as to be suspicious! :bounce:

[Sick of Bullshit]

59. Then, of course, there are Bu$$$h's different versions of 9-11

In one version, he says he saw the first attack live on the TV in a school hallway. In another version, he says that Karl Rove told him that the first plane to hit the WTC was a small twin engine plane.

But what is known for a fact is that Bu$$$h just sat on his whistle-ass for 15-20 minutes after being given a two-second message about the second attack by Andy Card. And Andy Card just stepped back without waiting for a reply.

[reorg]

40. this concerted debunking effort will fail

>I'm sure someone fairly high up had a discreet word with some leading mainstream media outlets and prodded them ...<

It is not necessary to act crude like that. Our leading crew - whether in government or "leading" mainstream news outlets - is recruited from a fairly small group of people who know each other for decenniums, probably much like the US establishment in Washington D. C. The editors know quite well what is currently required to get the Germans back on board with the war'n'terra and for doing business in the Middle East ...

LOL, I wish them good luck. Those 20-30 percent of the German populace who have their doubts about official announcements and manipulative media will not be impressed by non-factual, helpless smears, it is just too obvious what they are doing.

You OTOH, seem to have bought hook line and sinker into this Osama did it crap. Thousands of dead innocents in Afghanistan and Iraq will cherish the thought of American yeah sayers like yourself.

[Dirk39]

43. UUhhhhh,.....

"Our leading crew - whether in government or "leading" mainstream news outlets - is recruited from a fairly small group of people who know each other for decenniums, probably much like the US establishment in Washington D. C."???
What's the name of the journalist, whose investigative journalism revealed this secret conspiracy? The media - all of them -, the political elite in Germany, the economic elite in Germany. This very few people, who all know each other for decades and who secretly rule germany for years. Sorry, but for me this is just the ultimative paranoia, it's a way for an individuum to understand a society he can't understand and bring it all down to an easy "coup". Ending with a bunch of guys, who secretly rule the world for centuries.
I wish I'd live in a world that is as easy to understand as the one you live in.
Greetings anyway,
Dirk

[reorg]

54. seems you don't know the first thing what you are talking about

I'm talking of Stefan Aust, chief editor of Der Spiegel and long time tv reporter (and a very long time ago colleague of Ulrike Meinhof at Konkret, BTW - do you remember her?), a good friend of Mr. Schröder's and Fischer's and Schily's. I'm also talking of Spiegel editors and writers Reinhard Mohr and Henryk Broder, both of whom I superficially know from studying in Frankfurt at the same time - former left wing radicals in Frankfurt (just like me), and like some others who are now high officials in the Foreign Department.

Of course these guys know each other well, from the seventies "revolutionary struggles" and from the peace movement in the early eighties and from their subsequent careers by aligning themselves with the powers that be. And there are a lot more good friends of red-green leading party officials in major tv stations, news outlets and at the only opinion journal worth mentioning (well, not really), "Der Spiegel".

I have no idea what you are referring to in your babble wo which I am responding. Because I am stating the obvious, that the current opinion and political "leaders" in Germany know each other well, I am a "conspiracy theorist"? That is outright ridiculous.

How about addressing my actual point that the Panorama piece was vicious slander and nothing else?

Just like today's interview of Mr. von Bülow by Ms. Maischberger, BTW. No facts, no analysis, just throwing dirt. As was to be expected.

[Dirk39]

58. Sorry,

I believe that the boundaries you described in the message above, really exist. But this sounds much different to me, than in the statement, I was relationg to.

"Our leading crew - whether in government or "leading" mainstream news outlets - is recruited from a fairly small group of people who know each other for decenniums"
This is the typical language of a conspiracy theory. For sure, there are boundaries between people in leading positions and they support each other. And those rebels of yesterday, who now sit in high positions in the media and our government, might be disgusting and revolting people with Schily being the worst of them all. But you just take the obvious and blow it up, at least to me it sounds this way.

I would have to study the Panorama-documentary again, but to just take out one point: the thesis, that no or 1 or 5 "jews" were inside the WTC, when the terror attacks happened. And the people, you relate to, are not even ashamed of sitting at one table with a Nazi like Horst Mahler. What kind of boundaries are that? Panorama was interviewing Abraham Foxman, a guy from the Anti-Defamation League: They have a list with names, proving that 15 to 17% of the victims were jews.
And they have simply faced esp. Bülow with facts, showing that he didn't do job. You just have to listen to, how this guy talks. He never simply proves something. He only talks of possibilities and he's just creating an atmosphere. It's so typical for paranoids. And I'm pretty sure, for him and Broekers, who might have had better intentions before - I followed his telepolis-work before - it has just turned into a very ugly buisness.

I just try to make my statement more evident: the people, who are serious about that, should do their job very good. They should resist the tempation to simplify things. And they should distance themselves without compromising from nazis, antisemits and cynics. If, on the other hand, politicians and journalists try to discredit critical voices by mixing them with the above mentioned kind of people. That's their dirty work.
Dirk

[reorg]

118. the most vicious slander of Panorama and Spiegel

>I would have to study the Panorama documentary again, but to just take out one point: the thesis, that no or 1 or 5 "jews" were inside the WTC, when the terror attacks happened. And the people, you relate to, are not even ashamed of sitting at one table with a Nazi like Horst Mahler.<

You did not pay attention, Dirk. Von Bülow, Bröckers, Wisniewski -- not one of those sceptical investigators has EVER claimed that only "1 or 5 JEWS" were inside the WTC. You fell into the trap. This is what Panorama and Spiegel want you to believe, they insinuate everyone questioning the government line on 9/11 must be an anti-semite. But it is just that: an outright, vicious, dirty LIE.

Von Bülow expressly refers to reports of only a few ISRAELIS in the towers. Bröckers mentions these rumours and/or reports but DISTANCES himself from such claims, suspecting disinformation. There were several stories with reference to ISRAELI "art students" or whatever they were, there was this news story about an ISRAELI mover company whose employees were seen filming and cheering the fall of the towers and subsequently left the country. There was this news story in Haaretz on 9/12/01 about Odigo (an ISRAELI company) employees being warned before the attacks. All this may point to some kind of Mossad operation and/or involvement, maybe they were observing Islamist extremists in the US -- not entirely unthinkable, since German intelligence observed these such in Hamburg and the CIA even followed them around the world to Malaysia.

But NO ONE of the above mentioned EVER talked about JEWS, nobody said all JEWS were warned, except maybe some neonazis and from what I know there were rumours circulating in Arab countries to that effect, but this is a very different story.


And when and where did von Bülow or Bröckers or Wisniewski sit at one table with Horst Mahler? Did you just make that up?

Or did you fall into another propaganda trap? If you are you referring to the sceptics meeting in May or June of this year: Well, it was public, anybody could attend. The journalists were sitting on the panel (at one table), while Horst Mahler was in the audience (at no table), just like all the other listeners. He didn't say one word at this meeting, according to all available news reports.

But these same news reports made sure the name Horst Mahler was mentioned more often than what was actually discussed at the meeting.

And, as you probably know, having learned from that experience, the organizers of a second conference in Berlin last week put a disclaimer on their announcements to the effect that all attending panelists expressly distance themselves from right wing propaganda.

Ah, and BTW, contrary to Bülow, Bröckers, Wisnewski et. al. -- your friend Schily has definitely been sitting at one table with Mahler ... at one time ... and Mr. Schröder was his attorney not too long ago in the mid-eighties, remember? Maybe not too far-fetched to assume that Mahler is playing a very very shady role in this entire neonazi scheme, but this would be a conspiracy theory and I will abstain from that, promise.

[Turley]

70. non-factual helpless smear

The Spiegel article is in this week's issue. Have a read and let me know exactly which non-factual helpless smears you can identify.

I won't hold my breath.

[reorg]

96. well, I provided some examples, no need to hold your breath

read message #34

But I don't remember any facts or issues that YOU have discussed here!

Instead you keep advertising for this worthless magazine. Do you get a percentage?

[peacetalksforall]

114. Still, you have to ask why the Justice Dept offers NO

information that would dispel anything. NADA!

Why did they have names and photos on TV within hours?
Why do some of the people in the photographs and their
families claim they are still living? Is it true or
untrue that no names or similar names appeared on the
passenger manifests?

And for the DEFENSE Dept? Why was there NO, repeat NO
defense? And was there or was there not little white
aircraft flying around and out from the U.S. while
passengers sat in airports and slept in stranger's homes
for several days?

What can they say to defend their actions if there are
no other sinister motives?

Why are we learning about PNACer statements made months
and years before 9-11 predicting exactly what happened?

Why has NO negotiator stepped forward from the cabal to
attempt to make peace? Why have cabal negotiators only
been involved in buying off coalition partners?

These are real questions.

Here's an esoteric one - WHY did the cabal make President
Worst promise that he would unite and we would prosper?

Lying thugs and imperialists.

America is not the imperialist. This cabal is. There is
a difference. They are evil invaders and destroyers.

Too many people are doing their bidding by believing in them.
They are giving them a license to continue.

[qb]

21. Conspiracy Theories? British MP outlines it pretty rationally

in the Guardian:
This war on terrorism is bogus

The 9/11 attacks gave the US an ideal pretext to use force to secure its global domination

Michael Meacher
Saturday September 6, 2003

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,1036687,00.html

Not the wilder stories about substitute planes or planned demolition of the WTC - but a solid case for Bush/PNAC complicity.

[TeeYiYi]

26. That is a great find btbc . . .

Thanks for the link. I just finished reading the article in its entirety. Michael Meacher lays PNAC, BFEE and LIHOP out in a well researched nutshell. "The 9/11 attacks gave the US an ideal pretext to use force to secure its global domination." Everything I've believed to be true since day one (9/12). This article should be required reading for all thinking people.

TYY

[BelgianMadCow]

36. great summary, that ! plus,

it's not what he writes (LIHOP) and who writes it (former minister), but what makes me happy most is that Bush* has come out of summer recess and the same issues are still out there - only more concise, more in-your-face, and they will not go away.

I have hope.

[Dirk39]

46. But this isn't any kind of conspiracy theory...

this is simple politricks. They have used 9/11 to serve their purposes. And they did it in a very cynical way. If you've read this "New American Century"-Book, they even openly admitted, that a "catalyzing event", like a new Pearl Harbor — was seen as necessary to realise their project.

And as I tried to to explain before, the important thing, for those, who have questions - and the official version isn't credible - is to draw a line between those paranoid conspiracy theorists and serious investigations and questions.
Dirk

[Nottingham]

49. Well ya have to understand that Bush isn't really our President

He Never really won the Election

America was taken over by a Coup and if we were a democracy Gore would be our President

That was the Start of this Doubt and MisTrust!

if ya want to know where the 30% of Germans are coming from!

then it will all downhill from there!

And Hello Dirk glad to see a German here! So what do you believe happened at 9/11 that terrorists from AlQuida killed 3000 people in a suicidal Mission and attacked the Pentagon and crashed the plane in Pennsylvania ....What do you think DIrk?

[Dirk39]

55. Hello!

I believe that Al-Qaida did it. And I believe that the CIA and the FBI didn't do a good job before, although it might be hard to judge now. We're looking at it AFTER it happened. And we see a lot of those hints that were there before and ask ourselves, how this could be overlooked. But how many hints might those organisations get every day? And how does it look like, if these hints are hidden under 100.000s of other hints?
I could imagine - this would be the worst of all versions, that some people knew that it would happen and welcomed it. But till today, I'm just convinced that it was used in a very cynical way by the Bush-Administration to force their PNAC. In a way, those hard-core-patriots and nationalists didn't care one second for the victims, this cowboys didn't think one second about "revenge". They might just have thought: this is our day!

And apart from this, I think the Bush-Administration like many others too, have a completly misconception of what Al-Qaida is and how they work.
And all of these conspiracy theories are just turnaways from obvious facts or at least assertions, that are done with the best knowledge available today.

Greetings from Germany,
Dirk

[Nottingham]

60. Guten Tag Dirk ! Well we agree in that 9/11 was used By Bush

to futher his PNAC Plan. That Plan has been in the works for Many Years before Bush was in office

I hear what you are saying the FBI & CIA were all swamped with stuff that they couldn't stop it.

But heres the coincidences

9/11 happened on Bush's watch
Where was the AirForce in shooting down the planes ??
There was Time between the Time the One Plane hit the Towers and the Pentagon and the other Tower. Thats on record! What happened during the course of events while it was going on

Now if Bush did things that obstructed and allowed Saudis to escape
it kinda looks like he has a hand in it. And then we went to war with Iraq

So you can say that the coincidences are
PNAC got done
War was declared
Bush Presidency ensured ( kept population focused on the War and not on the policies of destruction of economy and environment)
and used Patriotism to his benefit
and was taking Cipro way ahead of anthrax scare
Has taken over the congress
and has the Supreme court

So far a random accident ...It really payed off for Bush and Osama cause Osama got what he wanted US out of Saudia Arabia!

I believe a Wise Man said Everything is Connected! O

[Sick of Bullshit]

63. Why is planned demolition a wild story?

1) Three buildings, which had different kinds of structural damage, came down in the same, perfect, planned demolition-like fashion.

2) The second tower came down first, although it was hit later. The top was leaning heavily. It makes sense that this was brought down first since it could have toppled over and damaged areas in the NYC financial district that were not intended to be damaged.

3) Planned demolition also makes sense if you consider that the buildings would have had to be brought down anyway, since there was so much damage that the top floors would have been unusable, they could not have been repaired, and they would have been like a "sword of Damocles" hanging over the lower floors.

4) The "intense heat" theory does not make sense since the fires produced a lot of black smoke, indicating fires that were starved for oxygen and thus burning at low temperature. And once the fuel had been exhausted, it would have been impossible for the fire to continue at extremely high temperature, given that the building was primarily composed of steel, glass and concrete, all of which do not burn.

[Unknown Known]

22. Much of this problem can be blamed on American media

namely - the American corporate-driven media censors the news. And this is nothing new.

For instance, when Reagan was shot - why was there a cover-up of the Hinkley family's close relationship to the Bush family?

I didn't know about this until years later and if you asked most Americans about it today, they would think you were crazy!

And yet, most people can tell you all about Monica Lewinsky and her family. It's what the media DECIDES what to tell us and pound into our heads - it's called PROPAGANDA. This explains people still believing Saddam was behind 911.

If there's anyone/anything in this country that's anti-American -
it's the CORPORATIONS & MEDIA - which are one and the same. And this is pure FASCISM.

[Catherine Vincent]

27. That doesn't surprise me.

Bush* and his ilk are perceived as evil enough to let something like that happen.

Bush is am embarassment to this country. And so is Cheney, with his sneaky ass.

[reprobate]

28. Don't bellieve in conspiracies? Read this:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4582.htm

<snip
Neither the Joint Chief of Staff, the Secretary of Defense nor the President of the United States acted according to well established emergency protocols. Acting Joint Chief of Staff General Richard B. Myers stated that he saw a TV report about a plane hitting the WTC but thought it was a small plane. So he went ahead with his meeting. By the time he came out of the meeting the Pentagon had been hit. Whose responsibility was it to relay this emergency to the Joint Chief of Staff?

<snip
How did many of the hijackers receive clearance for training at secure U.S. military and intelligence facilities, and for what purposes? Many of the terrorist pilots received their initial training in Venice, Florida at one of two flight schools of highly questionable credibility and with approval of US intelligence. Mohamed Atta had attended International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, Alabama; Abdulaziz Alomari had attended Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force base in Texas; Saeed Alghamdi had been to the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California. These are all names of identified hijackers, so why has the U.S. government attempted to deny the match? As early as three days after the 9/11 attacks, FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III claimed that these findings were new and had not been known by the FBI previously. This claim is a lie.

<snip
At a time when the U.S. intelligence community was on alert for an imminent Al-Qaeda attack, the Bush Administration made it easier for Saudi visitors to come to the U.S. under a program called U.S. Visa Express, introduced four months before September 11th. Michael Springmann, former head of the Visa Bureau at the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia said that he was repeatedly ordered by high-level State Departtment officials to issue visas to unqualified applicants. His complaints to higher authorities at several agencies went unanswered. In a CBC interview, he indicated that the CIA was indeed complicit in the attacks.

<end snips>

Don't believe in conspiracies?

Then you don't believe in Watergate.

Or the assasination of JFK.

Or Iran-Contra.

Or the October Surprise.

Come on folks. Throughout history conspiracies have been used to transfer power. To think otherwise is to believe that ALL decisions are made by democratic popular will, and THAT's crasier than any conspiracy theory.

Do I believe that the power structure of this country was involved in the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001? Damn right I do.

Of course I could be convinced otherwise. All it would take is to have a real investigation into all the question surrounding the attack. But bushco has quashed any questions raised.

Remember Ted Olson? In his short tour in the gov't he told us that the administration would lie to us when they thought it necessary. And he was talking for bushco.

Don't believe in conspiracies? How about Santa Clause and the easter bunny?

[glitch]

82. Exactly - B/W thinking is the problem

white - no such thing as a conspiracy, all conspiracy theories are false.
black - every thing is a conspiracy, all conspiracy theories are true.

Source of the problem: laziness, no effort made to analyze the individual theories themselves.
Disinfo purveyors feed into this effect by putting outlandish conspiracy theories into the mix. This gives both B/W sides the ammo they need to divert the argument to the margins, and it's less likely that any realistic conspiracy is evaluated.

[teryang]

126. Terrorism is always state sponsored

...it fits a "full spectrum" of domestic and international priorities. Events such as 911 cannot take place without state sponsorship. The sponsors in this instance were Saudi Arabia, America, Israel and Pakistan. Each doing their part for their own agenda and needs. The goals of each regime were not congruent but intersected in a historical moment of synchronistic need, each dealing with its own serious challenges to power and legitimacy.

Typically "terrorist" threats are manipulated such that the "enemy" actors, motivated by rather conventional human motives, revenge, religion, or psychopathy, are empowered and manipulated by intermediaries or series of intermediaries (not necessarily all that effectively covered in countries where the media are controlled) who are motivated by a combination of such concerns and more venal considerations, such as obligation, money or power. The superordinate puppet masters at the centers of power in their respective bunkers, marble palaces, or walnut lined "secure" conference rooms have "top secret" cover and protection of the state because they are "patriots." They are above the law.

Typically they are machiavellian opportunists with a Leninist like view of the universe. They are above conventional morality in their decision making. In fact, they hold conventional morality in contempt. Al queda is one of their international creations, just as BCCI was a tool of states. The support structure in the US was more closely related to state functions, such as the Saudi embassy and CIA/DOD operations, and allegedly "private" flying schools and airport security contractors, rather than al queda. These fronts are operating or being used on an intermediate term basis most of the time, laundering money or moving drugs and weapons. Their executive personnel are intelligence operatives or "retired" operatives.

As a "conspiracy" the concept is overworked. There are elements of conspiracy involved, such as in criminal conspiracy where there is a "meeting of minds" and where those on the spokes may not know those on other spokes, but there is more than one center. But primarily the international terrorism of "911" is a state business in which the above named regimes all contributed in a loose alliance of convenience. The meeting of minds chiefly involves the notion that morality is for little people and the end justifies the means. Those who shudder at the thought of mass murder or bombing civilians for political and economic gain need not apply.

[Romberry]

32. Directly involved?

No, not directly involved. That would imply direct help. I don't think there was any direct help. I think Bush and the people of PNAC just decided to sort of look the other way. Why? Well, it's just like Condi Rice said on the PBS News Hour. They thought these would "just be regular highjackings".

[Nottingham]

33. Perhaps why Germans are suspicious is that Hitler

used his people to Start WWII and he used the Jews to be the evil terrorists so that he could continue that scare and anger onto the other countries. Maybe the German people are well aware of how a man can manipulate a nation :bounce:

[tom_paine]

38. Who would understand Bush better than the Germans?

Who lived through the reign of he who was finaced by the Imperial Family (Prescott Bush)?

Of course the Germans are nervous...as nervous as the rest of the world was of them in 1936.

[Karenina]

37. LOVE the verbiage

"lapping up." Kinda strikes me the same way Christopher Clarey referring to the Williams' sisters as a "whippet" and a "mastiff."

The Germans learned the hard way to ASK QUESTIONS. I welcome the discussion. :bounce:

[BonjourUSA]

41. Beware !!

A french writer already made much money with this kind of bullshit. All the french media broke down his theory which had no serious evidences

[Nottingham]

44. Well there isn't WMD Not Found? Dosiers Doctored

and Scientists Dead

and Britsh Priministers lying

US Presidents lying to the Congress and American People about
Niger Uranium in State of the Union Addresses

Now that HAS been Proven and those look like Conspiracies

So maybe that is helping the skepticism of Germans along!

:bounce: and of course French Bashing because they went against President Bush on the War in Iraq!

[BonjourUSA]

45. No, About the 9/11 Pentagone attack

I don't remember the title of this book. The theory was : this attack has never existed.

[Nottingham]

52. Oh Bonjour! I know there are some crazy theories & Books written

like Ann Coulters stupid crazy theory book on McCarthy
twisted flawed and stupid so I bet that Pentagon Book is like that

but I guess my point is that Americans and the World Never had that hearing on 9/11 about what exactly happened cause we will never hear in America because all the facts are being held in a fault do to National Security

Well when a Society is Oppressed in its knowledge and Questions

they become angy and suspicious

its called Karma! O

[Minstrel Boy]

66. not all conspiracies are created equal

Someone once touted the theory LBJ himself shot Kennedy in the motorcade. Just because that theory's ridiculous doesn't mean there wasn't a genuine conspiracy.

Of course the no-plane-at-the-Pentagon theory is nonsense. It's a distraction, and worse, it casts a shadow of absurdity over legitimate questions.

Some sound advice from a conspiracy researcher on the dangers of being taken in by dubious theories:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/notAllCequal.html

[Dirk39]

51. But this is different!

IMO. If you take the right-wingers serious for a moment, their perspective somehow works. And like most conservative elitists, they don't believe that the public will understand their goals. They have to look for reasons and emotions, to sell their politics to the masses.

They've planned the war against Iraq long ago, which is a proven fact, it's no secret. They have a kind of plan for a new american century. They have a geopolitical strategy.
And while September 11 served them well, as the kind of "catalyzing event" (PNAC), they were waiting for, they didn't want to change their plans. If you want to take over the world, you can't change your plans from one day to the next, 'cause it would be a moral necessity to catch Bin Laden first. So they did everything to connect the prepared war against Iraq with the feelings of the Americans after September 11. For them it makes sense and I guess, they can live with it and go to bed with this, 'cause in the long run, it's the best for America and the world...

And nothing might make them more happy, than to see the people, who criticize them and question their perspective on politis, the american people and the world, mixed with obstrous and obscurant hobby-journalists, with Nazis (like Horst Mahler in Germany), Antisemits or pseudo-left-paranoids.
But me, I need a conspiracy theory, too. I have my own meta-conspiracy theory: All those conspiracy theories are inside-jobs by the CIA, the FBI and other evildoers. They have just infiltrated their critics. They want to make all of their critics look dubious. Because it's a proven psychological fact, that if you confuse people with too much different information from too many unreliable sources, they tend to buy the official version instead. And this is their secret goal. And we're all victims of that conspiracy:-)
Dirk

[Nottingham]

53. Dirk its like we are all in that cave and they are playing a video

to keep us in that cave in that dark! We can't trust what we see anymore. I understand what you are saying!

But a few things have slipped out because of their ineptness

One No Weapons of Mass Destruction were ever found

We did a Premptive Strike on another country

And the reasons that Bush gave to the American people have been false


Thats where some people will NEVER come out of the cave and how others will crawl out of there no matter what.

It gets down to do you think or are you a Sheep

Thats what happened in Germany the ones who thought either were killed, left the country or fought! The ones who followed everything they were told loyal dutiful lost Evertyhing! Family Respect etc..

[reorg]

57. hobby journalists and nazis and your average idiot

that's who they want you to believe is criticizing the war'n'terra concept.

Wake up, Dirk! Germany will participate in this war sooner than you may realize. Ten years ago it was unthinkable (not quite, since Mr. Naumann of NATO fame was preparing the necessary constitutional adjustments at about that time already) that German soldiers would participate in colonial warfare, "defending our country at the Hindukusch" ...

They will find a pretext to continue with this. Whether it is NATO, now seemingly destined to prevent Muslim extremists from dominating the world (yes, I'm serious, one former German intelligence official made this laughable claim that Muslims are trying to establish "Weltherrschaft" in a recent edition of the Frankfurter Rundschau) or whether it may be under UN auspices, there will be a way to justify to the German public that German soldiers must do their duty all over the world in order to defend our current living standards.

It is hard to argue against that, except if you are lost in dreams of equality, justice and brotherhood for all humankind and all that, oh well. Truth is just a minor adjunct to that, not really relevant at all.

[Dirk39]

61. We already participate and I guess I'm half awake...

What has been done to the remaining democratic and political rights in Germany after September 11, is in a way worse than what was happening in the USA. But in these conspiracy-theories, things go along too well.

What was the reason for Germany to oppose the war against Iraq: we - esp. our big corporations - have different economic interests. That's all. The rest is make-up. Before the war, german corporations prepared economic relations with the Iraq and if we could read, what was said about Germans and Germany in the pre-war Iraq of Saddam Hussein, the german public would be shocked, not to mention the americans...
France is a different issue, and the conflict between France and the USA started earlier in Africa. During the first gulf war, Chiraq was one of the most aggressive war-mongers. He was offending the french socialists for not using c-weapons again and again. Now he has become a kind of pacifist? No way.

There was even a paper published from the BDI - the biggest german industry lobby-group - about how to push this further while at the same time hiding this from the german public. You could even say, that it just fits well. As long as the Greens and the SPD were surfing on the "peace movement" and the anti-war mood, the conspiracy theories, that were very popular then, were rarely mentioned in the press. Now the situation has changed and from one day to the next, they engage in a kind of information campaign.
But you don't need a conspiracy, just the average cynicism and "pragmatism" will do.
If something supports you're agenda, use it, if it's ugly, use it and remain silent, if you can't use it anymore, diss it...
Greetings,
Dirk

[reorg]

95. yes we already participate, but questions were NEVER welcome

>As long as the Greens and the SPD were surfing on the "peace movement" and the anti-war mood, the conspiracy theories, that were very popular then, were rarely mentioned in the press. Now the situation has changed and from one day to the next, they engage in a kind of information campaign.
But you don't need a conspiracy, just the average cynicism and "pragmatism" will do.<

That's what I meant to say: the media know what is currently required and happily comply, therefore this concerted smear effort.

I agree that the red-green coalition were just "surfing" on the prevailing mood against war. They had to do something to console their former followers -- after all, they introduced postwar Germany to active warfare, in Yugoslavia, justifying it with veritable conspiracy theories of their own, from the so-called horseshoe plan to the myth of the apparently congenital Serbian inclination for genocide.

And they had little qualms to participate in the occupation of Afghanistan and still provide the commander and a considerable part of the occupation force.

Inconvenient questions on the terror war, its legitimacy and/or cause were never welcome, and never tolerated in the established German media.

[Turley]

72. Hey Reorg

Some Muslims actually are attempting to build a Weltherrschaft. They even say so publicly. Kind of surprised you missed that.

[reorg]

74. o sure, if you say so it must be true ...

A few months ago I talked to an Indian railway worker who fancied the idea that India is destined to become world power #1 in a few years time (if only all those Muslims could be sent over the border soon enough). Actually, he was dead sure about it.

I'm sure any number of harmless dumbasses all around the world believe stuff like that.

Feel free to join them in their fancies -- but don't expect me to pay attention and allow my tax money to be spent on fears based on such crap.

[Frances]

42. 70% of Americans

think Saddam was responsible for 9/11. My guess is that at least 50% of Americans think Saddam and Osama are the same person.

So I'm not going to be too hard on the Germans.

Personally, I don't think that Bush planned 9/11. I do think he is guilty of negligence in not doing more to prevent 9/11.

[grftjx]

47. the media offensive in Germany

I think that the ongoing massive campaign here in Germany to destruct the credibility of the critics who question the official version of 9/11 is quite interesting. Intersting because the strategies which are used are so obvious yet effective.

A few simple rules:

-pick out a minor point where you can prove that the research of the critics is flawed and repeat it over and over again. Time on air is limited, and the more of this time you can fill with this errors the better it will work to make the audience remember the guy in front of you as a paranoid lunatic. (Unfortunately not one of the critics said what they should have said: "Oh, great, thank you for helping me out here. You know, I'm just a single person asking questions, and the more you use the means of investigation that you have at hand and I have not the happier you make me. Now to my other questions...")

-Human touch. In every magazine aired, in every interview there came the point where victims were presented, implying that asking those questions would hurt the feelings of those who lost loved ones by the attacks. This is of course BS when you think about it. How can you better serve those who lost their life by murder than by demanding that the ones who did this will be brought to justice? And when you have doubts about those who are presented to you as the guilty, you honor the victims by expressing those doubts. But of course this human touch is presented not to make people think, but to make them shy away from thought.

-Antisemitism. The ultimate joker. I saw on three different occasions how this card was played as soon as the interviewed critic started to make a point. It doesn't matter how this is done, be it by bringing a guy named Horst Mahler (a well known German fascist who tries to gain popularity by jumping on the wagon of the discussion around 9/11) into the discussion, be it that they repeat the myth of the pre-warned israelis in the Twin Towers, hell, it's even enough to utter the magic formula "Mossad" to make that point. All that counts here is that the connection is made, the idea that the critic is a nazi will stick in one way or the other.

I'm afraid that what I see right now in Germany is a fight for what is "sane" in society. The whole idea of mental sanity is a double edged sword, because it can be used to suppress dangerous ideas much more efficiently than any censor could ever do. We all have a set of ideas in mind which we don't dare to question, for if we would do it it would endanger our functioning in society. And every oppressive regime in the past used this as a tool to control the masses. When you manage to get an idea you don't want to be thought out of that "canon of sanity", you have deleted this idea from any open official discussion.

This frightens me. I would love to see the media falsifying the arguments of the critics point by point, in a rational way, in fact I think that this would be the obligation of any free press. But what I see right now is exactly the opposite.

[Dirk39]

65. Your analyse is very interesting...

maybe, we have no consense about, what a conspiracy-theory is. I have not doubts, that conspiracies between people exist. But I rather tend to look at it from another perspective. My first question is: how does it work for the one, who believes it? Does it have the typical symptoms of what Freud called "rationalization": believing in theories and facts, that are incompatible with one another, but serve the same purpose. Like in the joke Freud loved so much: "1. I never rented your bicycle. 2. It was already broken, when you gave it to me. 3. It was in a perfect condition, when I returned it."
For me, conspiracy theories are a desperate way for individuals to try to understand the world they live in and make it all fit. It's not an easy thing, to understand or to study: You can be paranoid, but everything you say is true - somehow. But truth is not your goal. On the other hand, truth can be your goal and you can be serious about that, but everything you say is wrong. You're just mislead.
Dirk

[reorg]

100. simple solution

>Like in the joke Freud loved so much: "1. I never rented your bicycle. 2. It was already broken, when you gave it to me. 3. It was in a perfect condition, when I returned it."<

I don't know about that joke, but this actually happened to me:

1. I never rented my girlfriend's bicycle
2. Her bike was already broken when she gave it to me
3. It was in a perfect condition when I returned it.

Simple solution to this puzzle: She asked me to repair her bike and that's what I did.

The very simple solution to the 9/11 puzzle would be a thorough investigation, with all documents made public by the government agencies concerned.

Maybe some help by professional journalists would be in order if they make an honest attempt at addressing all questions that may arise?

Hint: these journalists are already at work out there, but for some inexplicable reason they are treated with bile and contempt and smeared with the label "conspiracy theorists".

[Dirk39]

103. But you're girlfriend never accused you of destroying her

bicycle. I guess, I'm part of the conspiracy anyway. I eat and drink in the same club as Gremliza, Aust and this former Spiegel-chief. This former Spiegel-Chief and Gremliza are patients in a hospital, I work in.
And does anybody really believe that both of them have reasons, to stay in the same hospital at the same time? And the hospital is very specialised... How naive are you? Common, wake up!
Journalists from Panorama are there, too: Drinking in the club, not suffering in the hospital. And it's 50 meters from the most famous street in the most famous red-light district of the world, prostitutes, pimps, drugs and weapons are everywhere - not the hospital, but Cunos. Forget about this faked video, Bin Laden published today, forget about those wannabee amateur revolutionairies. I did it!
One more red wine from this not-so-good-cooking-son of an italian-communist to Dirk! And as you might know, Gremliza is opposing these conspirazy theories, too.
But wasn't he working for the Spiegel long ago, too? Could this be coincidental? - Only fools and sheeps will believe this. And doesn't he officially pretend to offend the Spiegel all the time. Just to many coincidents in my red wine! But none of my comrades had the guts to do it, so at least, I had to do it.
So far about bicycles....
But I still like to read your posts,
Dirk
P.S. If you have any conspiracy theory about Shily at hands, post it to me, I would believe everything about Ashcroft-Schily!

[reorg]

113. Panorama report

Hi Dirk,

I hope you made it back safely from your red wine binge in Hamburg's red light district.

In message #20 you were praising the investigative efforts of several news media, in particular with reference to the tv magazine, Panorama, pointing out:

"One Magazine has done a good job by just picking the 5 most prominent issues, the conspiracy-theories repeat again and again, proving that they are wrong and that these people have done no serious work, to really find out, what was happening."

I message #34 I provided the link to this report, summarized some of it and came to the conclusion that Panorama had picked only a few rather irrelevant points and despite their investigative efforts were not able to provide definite proof that these 5 issues which are (not) repeated again and again are "wrong", i. e. based on false or misleading evidence.

You never responded to my comments but chose to insinuate, somewhat incoherently I might add (maybe due to your choice of beverage) that I myself were prone to speculate on "conspiracies". It may come as a great relief for you to learn that I'm not!

So why not get back to the original discussion of whether Panorama and Der Spiegel and others engage in non-factual baseless slander.

You will find a detailed analysis of the Panorama report here (sorry, only in German):

http://www.galerie-arbeiterfotografie.de/galerie/kein-krieg/hintergrund/index-rezension-2.html#01

[Turley]

71. Read the Spiegel piece

A point by point rebuttal would take more than ten pages but I think they did a very good job of dispassionately deconstructing the conspiracy theorists and exposing the cynical methods with which those theorists use to twist facts and testimony to their own ends.

[grftjx]

73. I did.

And it surprises me that you could read that story without seeing any spin in it. Your conclusion is exactly what was intended by the authors of the article, of course, but do you really think that the journalists who have written it have led you to this conclusion in a rational way?

[reorg]

76. excellent analysis

- I agree that these mainstream media outlets don't even attempt to discuss the issue honestly. Their propaganda effort is targeted at an audience that knows little and doesn't want to know, at those that go with the flow.

[paulthompson]

87. Der Spiegel

Interesting analysis. I have been interviewed on the radio a couple of times so far, but luckily only by completely sympathetic hosts. I haven't seen these tactics used yet.

Do you (or anyone) have a copy or link to the Der Speigel article, in German, or preferrably, in English? I'd like to see that.

[reorg]

90. haven't read it but here are the links

You can buy the article in German (0.85 cents) here:

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,264593,00.html


Apparently there is no english version, seems to be an internal affair ... ("DER SPIEGEL offers English translations of its cover stories or the most important feature articles whenever they concern international affairs"), or maybe it isn't ready yet.

Short summary is here:

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/english/0,1518,264555,00.html


Der Spiegel has a sad history of "debunking" any speculation or questions outside of "it was all an unfortunate blunder".

[slack]

93. only german

http://mitglied.lycos.de/spiegel1109/

and perhaps interessting:
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS - DEMANDING ANSWERS

Open letter to the U.S. embassy in Berlin, to members of the U.S. government, to the German Chancellery and to officers of the European Union
Sense of the "Unanswered Questions - Demanding Answers" conference
Presented to the press and public on Sunday, Sept. 7, 2003 in Berlin.
http://www.911truth.org/openletter.html

[HaThorAtor]

110. Article in German Magazine DER SPIEGEL

They sell some of their articles as well as this one. But people in online forums have ported it there after scanning it. One possible source is Operation 9/11 Forum

Of course it is in German language

Greetings from Good Old Europe

[qanda]

50. It's funny how 70% of Americans believe

In the conspiracy theory that Saddam was involved in 9-11, where there is no evidence to support that fact. Yet, Germans cannot believe that * and his gang of thugs had something to do with 9-11 even though there is all types of evidence pointing to either *'s involvment or at the very least his prior knowledge.

[ozone_man]

62. Germans may be right. My first reaction, when I saw what happened, was

that Bush was in on it. Sometimes your first reaction is right.

[BenFranklinUSA]

75. U R Sad And Disturbed If That Was Your 1st Reaction

so mush nonsense, folks.
no wonder we lack cred these days.
sad.

[scarletwoman]

79. That was MY first reaction, too -- and that of many others as well.

"Sad and disturbed"? Damn right -- and angry as hell too! Our government and our country has been hijacked by a criminal junta -- I find that VERY disturbing!

sw

[glitch]

84. hear hear!

Damned angry.
My first thought, they are shooting the moon. And everything that they have done since has confirmed that gut instinct.

[scarletwoman]

85. Thanks! And btw...

I hope you'll check out the link in post #68 below. If you're not already familiar with it, I think you'll find it quite interesting.

sw

[Nottingham]

86. I have read it! And agree with Scarlet! Its Not Boring thats for sure

I was so glad the person posted that! Mega thanks! :bounce:

[glitch]

88. I did read it when it was first posted, but you know, not a bad time to

read it again. Thanks!

[ozone_man]

99. Thanks, now I'm even more "disturbed" after reading "Ghost Riders".

Good to know that others feel the same way.

We might have to ask a 747 pilot (sfecap?) about that remote control stuff. BTW, 4 or 5 Raytheon employees involved in the remote control technology were on those planes.

[DemonFighterLives]

64. How can we believe otherwise

Nothing good has happened since this administration took over the country by vote fraud and tampering and throwing out the recount. They threw out all the terrorist information compiled by the Clinton administration. They eased up on investigating the Bin Ladens and the Saudi's. The military stood down on that fateful day. Building 7 blew up and was never hit by any airplane. There has not been any credible investigation of the worst disaster to hit our shores. The energy industry and Defense contractors have raped the country and the ecconomy in in the dumper with no relief in sight. We are now direspected by over half the world. We are out there killing defenseless people willy nilly and bragging about it. It has scared the hell out of any sensible person. We are under constant surveilance and any misstep will put you in a Gitmo like state. Dissent is seriously frowned upon and you will be labeled an America hater or a commie. And that is barely scratching the surface. Darn, I feel better already.

[Nottingham]

67. DemonFighterLives that kinda captures the Mood!

and ya wonder why Germans would think there was a conspiracy by somebody! :bounce:


Now Bush has place America in a war that will escalate into the New Cold War or WWIII

:bounce:

[stlsaxman]

68. Wonder if any of them have read "Ghostriders in the Sky"...

I was faced with a sleep deprived night after reading this-

http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/ghost_riders_1-4_1.html

Impossible? I really don't know...

[scarletwoman]

77. Wow -- Yes, I've read it!

Someone posted that link here several months ago, and I've reposted it a few times since.

For me, reading it was a total Eureka! experience, I was very excited to see such a well-formulated alternate scenario. It makes a huge amount of sense to me.

I am sorry this was a cause of sleep deprivation for you. Since I have firmly believed from the moment the second WTC tower was hit, that the 9/11 attack was in one way or another a massive "black op" perpetrated from INSIDE our own government, my own response was more like relief upon encountering an intelligent and plausible hypothesis regarding how the attacks could have been pulled off.

We probably will never find out the whole truth -- at least in MY lifetime (I was 14 when JFK was assassinated, and am still waiting for the truth about THAT to come out!) -- but the benefits accrued from 9/11 in furthering the vile agenda of the bush* junta is plain enough to see.

sw

[Unknown Known]

69. If you don't believe in LIHOP or even MIHOP,

then please explain to me just who gave the stand-down orders that day? This question has never been answered.

So, until a reasonable answer is given, which would have to contradict every military response standard in this country, then it's my belief that the American people are the ones who believe in conspiracy theories and not the Germans.

[Nottingham]

78. Raises Hand! forgive me can someone explain LIHOP& MIHOP

I have seen that but don't know what that means! :bounce:

[scarletwoman]

80. After all this time you've been on DU, and you don't know?!

That really surprises me!

Anyway:

LIHOP = Let it Happen on Purpose
MIHOP = Made it Happen on Purpose

sw

[Nottingham]

81. Scarlet Woman HA HA HA! Thanks so Much! I wasn't the ONLY

one! A friend of mine on the Du called me and was asking what it means And I go Ya know I'm not exactley sure!

MEGA THANKS! Scarlet Woman! :bounce:

Your the Greatest!

[scarletwoman]

83. Aw shucks -- happy to help!

And glad to know it's a twofer -- you AND a friend! :hi:

sw

[Myra]

89. The Germans are in a good position to recognize or suspect

The truth behind 911. In retrospect.
Having been through their own version of it,
aka, the burning of the reichstag.

Same fascist strategy to justify trashing
of civil rights and aggression against
other countries.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

91. Biggest Questions

1) Why hasnt anyone shown us Video of ALL 19 Hijackers as they go thru the security gate in Logan? (The photo they have shown is of M. Atta in Providence Airport, not Logan). So far, there is NO video evidence that those men were even on the planes.

2) Where is the Video of the plane striking the pentagon IF it happened.

Why not get rid of the conspiracy theorists' theories, and release EITHER of the above Video? Remember, you were TOLD 9-11 was carried out by those men. thatsit.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

94. German Intelligence Report

Who wrote this?

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a652.htm#001

[grftjx]

97. a better question would be:

Why are you linking to such an obvious forgery taken from a nazi website?

[HR_Pufnstuf]

112. uhhh.. lemme think..

...would i have linked it becuz this might be the thread about Germans NOT believing Americans? Well, then, that would explain my link. tsk tsk.

Watch out Boogeyman is coming! BOO! its 9-11, give us your tax money for Iraq or else!

[Nottingham]

98. Ya Good Point? I wonder why we haven't been shown it?

:bounce: Its like when we got No Video of when Diana's car went through the tunnel in France ...........and yet we have Cameras EVERYWHERE!!!

[slack]

101. simple question, Bush or Hitler?

"We have no interest in oppressing other people. We are not moved by hatred against any other nation. We bear no grudge. I know how grave a thing war is. I wanted to spare our people such an evil. It is not so much the country; it is rather its leader. He has led a reign of terror. He has hurled countless people into the profoundest misery. Through his continuous terrorism, he has succeeded in reducing millions of his people to silence. The maintenance of a tremendous military arsenal can only be regarded as a focus of danger. We have displayed a truly unexampled patience, but I am no longer willing to remain inactive while this madman ill-treats millions of human beings."

[scarletwoman]

102. Well, it's OBVIOUSLY Hitler

Too many multi-syllabic words for whistle-ass.

sw

[slack]

105. And No, I'am not Anti-American

No way. Far from it. I'dont want live in the USA, ok. I'am European.
But I love Kevin Smith, Jerry Seinfeld, or Michael Moore. My persnonal favorit is Noam Chomsky. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
But did this sounds like anarchy?
Is it possible to love Seinfeld or Smith and be Anti-American?
Especially if you grow up with former GI as stepfather?
I'am a great NBA-FAN, is that possible as an european Anti-American?

And yes, I have to say, I'am against Sharon.
I think for the massacre of Sabra and Shatila, he's a massmurder.

And... this text above is from Hitler, not from Bush.

And I have to say some things clear and loudly:

- Yes. Bush remembers me of Hitler.
- No. Sharon did not, even if I think he is a massmurder
- I really like America
- I really like Israel
- I don't think Germany is a special or "gods own country".
- I hate nationalism
- I don't think every american is a Bush supporter.

for everything about 9/11, I think Paul Thomson is the best source everybody can wish. He's amazing. Read his timelines, and this will takes weeks, and you will understand Chomsky.

[slack]

106. sorry for spluttering

like a three years old child
i'am no intellectual.

[paulthompson]

109. Thanks, Slack

"for everything about 9/11, I think Paul Thomson is the best source everybody can wish. He's amazing. Read his timelines, and this will takes weeks, and you will understand Chomsky."

I completely agree! ;)

[Nottingham]

107. Ok Slack who said this?

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

:bounce: Sounds like Bush doesn't it!

but a Famous German said it!
I think Germans are aware of the dangers Americans are facing in their belief they are being attacked by SOMEONE(Saddam Alquida)

[Nottingham]

115. That was a quote by Herman Goering! Is this tactic being used

here in US! :bounce:

I really appreciate our German DUers for adding the great comments and incite from our German friends! :bounce:

[peacetalksforall]

116. Kissinger

Right?

[Nottingham]

120. I wouldn't doubt it that Kissinger used it in Vietnam!

and the Cold War! :bounce:

You could be right but it was Herman Goering who was the first!

[Dr Fate]

104. Fact: Bush failed to prevent 9-11.

His current policies are failing miserably.

We can nail him on the hard facts!

[TrueStory]

111. My "Conspiration Theory"

goes back several years before, when Clinton was the president.
They tried to convince Clinton to invade Iraq, but he resisted
the idea, and this is why he had so many problems with womans
like Paula Jones and Monica Lewinsky.

Read more here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=53315

I think Bush was convinced about the necessity of invading
Iraq even before he became president and this is the reason
why the "unelected" is the president.


//TrueStory

[plaguepuppy]

124. Bill Hicks had it nailed

From the late Bill Hicks, circa 1993:

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/BillHicksElite.mp3

[Ganja Ninja]

117. Why Anthrax - Not 9/11.

Think about their motives before the 2000 (s)election.

They wanted a war with Iraq.
Afghanistan is an inconvenience for them.
Iraq is strategically located with lots of easy get at crude.
Afghanistan has no oil to speak of and is only valuable as a pipeline route.
Afghanistan is land locked, mountainous, high altitude and crawling with hostile natives.
Iraq is flat desert terrain, easily conquered with a population living under a severe dictatorship that under the right circumstances might have welcomed liberation.

Why destroy downtown Manhattan and practically kill the American economy in the process? For that matter why involve a bunch of foreigners they couldn’t trust? Don’t you think bin Laden would expose the Bush’s if they were involved? Why wouldn’t he? Why wouldn’t the Bush’s be worried about the possibility?

All they had to do was mail out the anthrax, as many times as necessary, blame it on Sadam and the public would have fallen in line.

All these wild 9/11 theories, planes flown on remote control, fake phone calls, are too speculative. They were unnecessary and counterproductive to accomplish the goal of getting a war started in Iraq. The whole 9/11 scheme would have been too risky and convoluted. Keep it simple.

[runamokcomedy]

119. It makes sense

They are a failing nation. They had the chance to lead Europe and instead they ceded all power to the EU. Now Blair calls all the shots. They ought to be allowed to operated beyond the constraints of the surrender agreements of 1945. Let them re-arm. Uber Alles.

[Nottingham]

121. They ARE NOT a Failing Nation! Are you Nuts! They are Powerful!

And they are ReArming themselves because they are realizing that America may not be able to defend them

Germans are a Brilliant and Rich Nation

And Growing Leaps and Bounds! Blair is gonna be out as Prime Minister soon so HELLO!!

Keep up!

[HPLeft]

123. Madness

There was a Zogby poll in 2002, in which a majority of Muslims living in Asia told pollsters that Israel was behind 9/11. 70% of Americans believe that Hussein was behind 9/11. Young Germans increasingly believe that Bush was behind 9/11 (a preposterous idea, IMHO, since the men who planned so badly for the aftermath of the Iraq War could never achieve the kind of coordination that would be required for this kind of a conspiracy to be possible).

There is a simple explanation for this huge disparity of opinion. Humanity has simply gone mad!

[HaThorAtor]

125. ...takes it's toll

Humanity has simply gone mad!

This is obviously right. Do you feel as part of humanity (=mankind) ???

Greetings from Good Old Europe