Terror war hurts Christians: Vatican

[leftchick]

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11584592%5E1702,00.html

THE Vatican's foreign minister has said the war on terrorism has helped spread anti-Christian sentiment around the world.

Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo said such sentiment arose from the mistaken view that western political strategies "are considered to be determined by Christianity, or at least not separated from it".

He told a US-organised conference on religious freedom that "it should be recognised that the war on terrorism, even though necessary, had as one of its side effects the spread of 'Christianophobia' in vast areas of the globe."

He said Vatican diplomats have been fighting this, recently insisting before the Vatican Commission on Human Rights that "Christianophobia be condemned together with Islamophobia and anti-Semitism".

[JPJones]

1. But you just HAD to save the embryos n/t

[charlyvi]

2. Just another reason for wingnut fundies to

disavow Catholicism as not Christian. They think it's not a true Christian religion. Too much peace and love, I guess.

[Straight Shooter]

3. And don't "fergit"

"They wership Maay-ree."

All these religious leaders suddenly finding their consciences, those teeny-tiny little voices that couldn't speak up for Kerry?

[charlyvi]

4. Well, after another four years of Bush as our personal

saviour, maybe most people will realize those long lost days of separation between church and state weren't so ungodly after all. Ya reckon!

[TheFarseer]

17. We don't worship Mary

We pray to her for guidance and look to her as an example - just like the saints - but we do not "worship" anything except the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't know if you were saying that or saying that they say that, but just to set the record straight.

[JVS]

11. If there were an award for calling other Christians non-Christian...

the clear winner would be the Roman Catholic Church.

[Lizzie Borden]

5. It would have been nice...

if they had thought like this and not authorized the Crusades.

[texpatriot2004]

6. Than they should reprimand their priests for endorsing one

political candidate over the other and for sitting in judgment about which sinner can receive communion.

[Ian David]

8. Why are they complaining?

If it was really that important, than maybe they shouldn't have made gay marriage a higher priority.

Idiots.

For the record, in case anyone in my area is looking for a target, I happen to be a Humanist. Killing me would be pointless.

I suggest moving on to another house in my neighborhood, maybe one with a little statue of The Virgin Mary.

[Flammable Materials]

7. "Christianophobe"?

Count me in.

'Fuckers scare me.

:)

[phasev]

9. crusades

at least they learned a lesson from their crusades. now it's the christofacist protestants who are giving the religion a bad name.

[JVS]

13. If you think that the Crusades are the last time the Vatican has been...

involved in dealings that make Christianity look bad, you need to read some history. Only since Vatican II in the 60's has the Vatican stopped being extremely reactionary

[genieroze]

10. I'm a Christian and the Catholic Church is moronic.

They are the ones that slammed Kerry for his pro choice stand and were homophobic. As far as being a Christian, please don't lump me in with the fundies. Crusade my ass. I wonder how many of them would be willing to go to Iraq and try and convert those so called Muslims heathens. They might get in over their heads, and literally lose them.

[ElectroPrincess]

15. The right wing Bishops were taken in by the Protestant Fundies ...

what MAROONS! ... they (those that Dissed Kerry) were the minority but the MSM pushed them up front and conveniently ignored the Vatican Cardinal who stated categorically that the INDIVIDUAL Catholic must search their soul and weigh all the tenets of the faith before casting their vote.

In essence, priests are commanded by the Vatican NOT to determine who DESERVES communion. That responsibility rests with the individual Catholic ... that decision (whether or not to receive communion) is between the individual and GOD.

I'd venture to say that my fellow liberal Catholics and I are subdued ... even meek at meetings ... lest we be shouted down by the "out there" fellow parishioners. But I believe that liberal Catholics represent almost 50% of the working and middle class of our religion and we vote Democratic.

Please don't dislike me for not "speaking up" but instead getting with a few other Liberal Catholics. These Christian fundamentalists of all strips are Zealots and scary in their authoritarian nature. I've seen some of them get "worked up" and they almost literally foam at the mouth. It's frightening. I do not understand why they can't see how wrong it is to judge others instead of looking inward.

BTW I was half listening to CSPAN in the background this AM and heard someone state that being religious WENT BEYOND GIVING TO THE POOR. This is 1984: What's up is down; the rich are good and the poor are lazy. Now Go Shopping for "freedom on the march."

We do live in interesting times, Aye? ;)

[genieroze]

19. Carry a mirror with you and when you see them foaming ask them

if they want to see evil. Then hold up the mirror and walk away.

[ElectroPrincess]

22. Cute, I used to "mix it up" during my RCIA (for those of us

converting to Catholicism) during 1996. We had a liberal priest overseeing our classes - the fundies (those who wanted to block abortion clincs) and I had an intense discussion that ended with my challenge.

"OK, I get it! = Thou shall not kill. If one of you will go with me to say prayers for a prisoner about to be executed outside the state penitentiary, then I'll go with you to block an abortion clinic?"

Not one of them took me up on the offer. No, I personally do not believe in abortion OR execution. However, I do not have the right to tell those who are NOT of the Catholic faith how to behave.

I think the above is also how John Kerry practices his faith: Lead by example for your faith, but represent your constituents' beliefs in the secular world separate from your practice of religion.

Come to think about John F. Kennedy was REQUIRED to state the above categorically in order to win over the Non-Catholic Americans.

What's down is now up. :(

[hickman1937]

30. Until 4 years ago

the Catholic church was adament. No abortion, no death penalty. they had my respect. Now they've abandon Pope John Paul 11, for Pope JerryPatBob. I guess there is more redemption in turning churches into temples of hatred. More butts in the seats. Anti-abortionism costs smug upper middle class voters nothing. Post birth abortion, at risk kids being returned to their abusers, well, come on, how can I buy my vacation home if I have to fund scum baby's born to wellfare Queens?

[genieroze]

37. As a Christian, I think abortion is murder.....BUT as a liberal

I don't push my beliefs on others. People have to look in their own soul and decide things for themselves, I'm not God.

[Cheswick2.0]

32. bullshit..... the right wing bishops were taken in by no one

I live in an area where there are very few fundamentalist but we are overrun by cathlolic churches. The people hear about the poor unborn babies every week in church and nothing about immoral war or the death penalty.
People around here are Catholic and they are rabidly irrational on the subject of choice. Blame your church, don't foist the blame off on others.

You know, God can be found in other churches, you don't have to continue to support a church which discriminates against women.

[JVS]

34. As a Pennsylvanian I can back this up

Without Catholic voters who are dead-set against abortion we would never have heard the name Rick Santorum

[PassingFair]

43. I don't understand why you do not stand up to them.

Sorry, I really don't. If you worked for the church, I could understand that speaking up might cost your job. The Catholic Church was not a silent observer in those states that passed proposals to AMEND THEIR STATE CONSTITUTIONS to specifically discriminate against same sex couples, even when state LAWS already specified that MARRIAGE was defined as a relationship between a man and a woman.

If you can't speak up, you should walk out. How can you voluntarily congregate with control freaks who think its OK to attack and occupy another country to gain control of its assets? How can you tithe money to an organization (voluntarily!) that promotes murderous aggression abroad and theocratic control at home?

Many catholic friends have told me that the direction from their pulpits was to vote for Bush. The church was complicit.

[BrainRants]

24. I'm a Catholic and agree the Catholic Church is moronic!

I listen to priests plead (begging) for young men to join the priesthood, then in the next breath dismiss half the population (women) from becoming priests.

The election and how the church played politics, and the $ettlements made in the pedophilia scandals made us look around with a little more scrutiny as to where our charity money goes.

(Hint: it ain't going in collection baskets)

[ElectroPrincess]

25. Yes, but I will not give up my faith because an institution

consisting mostly of men has been corrupted by wealth and power. The Church is in err but we can't blame the Catholic faith.

[VegasWolf]

27. Hi Princess, how do you distinguish the Catholic Faith from

the Catholic Church. Isn't the Catholic Faith the
set of teachings of the Catholic Church from the time of Constadine
at the Council of Nicea to the present? Just curious what you
think :).

[JVS]

29. The answer to your question is (drumroll) The Athanasian Creed

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this : That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/athacree.htm

[VegasWolf]

31. Hi, so reading the creed of St. Athanas, the major defining

difference is the belief in the Holy Spirit. Is it your
assertion that the major ( only? ) distinction between
the Catholic faith and all other Christian religions is
the belief in the Holy Trinity? Thanks!

[JVS]

33. All who believe in the Holy trinity belong to the catholic faith

No matter what denomination they might be a part of.

Edit: Notice the small c. catholic=universal

[VegasWolf]

35. Then you are saying that the Catholic faith is distinguished from

all other Christian faiths by the sole belief in the Holy Trinity?

P.S. My parents tried to raise me Catgolic, but I stopped believing when I was 13 and I was told that non Catholics could not get
into heaven. I did get a good education though. I personally
do not believe in any religions or God, but I am always curious
what other people believe. Especially new converts to catholicism.
Peace.

[JVS]

36. Not quite

There are plenty of non-Catholic denominations that believe in the trinity.

I'm just saying that the creed of Athanasius defines what the catholic faith is.

[VegasWolf]

38. Exactly, this goes back to my original question to Princess.

Isn't the Catholic Faith the set of teachings of the Catholic
Church. All other Protestant religions are offshoots of
Catholicism. The Jewish faith does not believe in the Holy
Trinity.

<snip>
A SHORT HISTORY
The disciples of Christ, scattered by persecution, spread the gospel of the kingdom. In Egypt, these missionaries found a ready acceptance of the new religion and as usually happens, the growing numbers of believers began to gravitate toward certain charismatic leaders. The two most famous of these men were Arius and Athanasius, both of Alexandria.

Arius (c.250-336) held that Christ is the Son of God, and that because He is the Son He therefore had a beginning. “It is a necessary condition of the filial relation,” He wrote, “that the Father must be older than his Son. The Father and the Son are of “like substance” (or nature) and therefore Christ is divine and worthy of worship. (A century before Arius, another believer named Novation of Rome held a similar view. A short passage from his writings can be found on page 52 of this study.)

Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, headed the opposing party which held that the Father and the Son are of “one substance,” coequal, and coeternal. They asserted that the doctrine of Arius lowered the Son making Him less worthy of worship than the Father. It is worth noting here that the Egyptians had worshiped a triune God (Isis-Horus-Set, otherwise known as Amum-Maut-Khonso) for thirty centuries.

</snip>

http://www.aggelia.com/htdocs/trinity2.shtml

Since the Catholic Church started Christianity by voting that
Jesus was the Son of God in the Council of Nicea, and later
Bishop Athanasius extended the idea to the Holy Spirit and
virtually created the Holy Trinity.

These men and the men that followed them as leaders of the
Catholic Church created and refined the Catholic Faith, did
they not?

Edit: I'm guessing the divinity debates preceeded the Council
of Nicea, I had it wrong above.

[JVS]

40. The basic problem here is that history is extremely murky

It also depends greatly on perspective. For instance, an Orthodox Christian would deny that the Roman Catholic Church started Christianity. They would claim that Roman Catholicism started when the bishop of Rome started asserting authority that was not his which led to the schism between East and West. Along a similar vein, the earliest "protestants" did not consider themselves offshoots of the RCC because their intention was to reform the Church and return it to teachings which they considered more in line biblical teachings rather than the combination of biblical and extra-biblical teachings (or refinements as you might put it) of the Church. Of course there are more recent reformers that have discarded the trinity.

Basically my answer was a facetious reply to your question "What is the catholic faith" The line "this is the catholic faith" from the Athanasian creed popped into my head. Since creeds are where religions talk about what they believe, I figured that the Athanasian Creed is the best answer we'll get to the question

[VegasWolf]

41. No, I agree, that was a good starting point! I was sidestepping

the Greek-Roman issues because basically they produce the same
result. To be precise, my assertion is that the Catholic
Faith ( however which way it is defined ) is the set of
teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church. Princess
said she believes in the faith but not the institution.
But the institution is men who thought of the ideas defined
by the faith. I can see why princess is disillusioned ( I guess )
with the current institution. But all institutions are those
of men who by nature are not perfect. How can one criticize
the current institution as being fallible without saying all
of the ancestors were equally fallible. It's like separating
the men from their ideas.

[JVS]

28. You know, I'd be Catholic this very day if my people hadn't been kicked...

out of the Catholic church for basically saying what you just said.

[JVS]

12. This is not really a criticism of the war

It calls it necessary and really is only complaining about the negative side effect of 'Christianophobia'

[tsuki]

14. I have fundamentalistophbia. Should I seek help?

[lovuian]

16. It doesn't help having a Bush Bumper sticker on the Papal throne

Not at all!!!

[jwirr]

18. Oh Woe!

When the church becomes a part of worldly government they will and should get the same backlash as the secular government would. The Catholic Church stood right beside the fundies in this election and now it wants to try to blame the fundies alone for the mess. Well my dear christions the blow-back has just begun. You are going to be blamed for this insane "Armageddon" War and the other resulting wars, the destruction of the FDR programs that kept us and the world from another Great Depression for decades, the further impoverishment of the worlds poor, the further gap between the rich and the poor of the world, the destruction of the environment that we all depend on and the eventual fall of democracy. God spare us that you will be blamed for another holocaust but you should know that is a possibility when absolute power reigns. I am a Christian who loves her Lord but has totally rejected the organized right wing church. The repugs have conned you! They are about as interested in unborn babies and stopping terrorism as I am in getting married again!!!!!

[genieroze]

20. Bad marriage huh?

[jwirr]

26. No, just too young when it happened and now

too used to doing my own thing.

[VivaKerry]

21. Unbelievable that dead muslim babies in the streets would

cause anti-christian sentiments!!!

Or, JESUSLAND conducting a terror war.

Or, or, or...

Good God.

[TankLV]

23. Reap what you so - idiots!

YOU told us all how to vote, and who was "more christian".

YOU were silent when the idiot fundamenalist and radical christian clerics told us how evil and bad Kerry was.

YOU papist queen, remained silent while the wacko fundies and your pedophile hypocritical priests attacked fellow catholic Kerry.

Burn in your vision of hell for eternity for what you have enabled to foisted on humanity!

[TahitiNut]

39. "They hate us for our crucifixations."

:silly: :dunce: :crazy:

[NNN0LHI]

42. It ain't doing Muslims much good either n/t