What happened to the middle class? Retail, auto sales, job numbers...

[Keirsey]

Retail, auto sales, job numbers suggest tougher times
The recent spate of sales figures and job numbers underscore an emerging picture for the economy: the gap between the haves and the have-nots is widening amid a draining of the middle-income ranks.

"The longer-term pattern is that the rich are getting richer," said Standard & Poor's Chief Economist David Wyss. "It's not so much that the poor are getting poorer, but there's a hollowing out of the middle class."

As fortunes improve for certain sectors of the population, so too do their tastes for autos, apparel and home furnishings to leisure and hospitality choices, leading to a "buying up" to better and higher-priced merchandise and experiences.

At the same time, the higher prices at the gas pump and for home energy bills are pinching the monthly budgets of lower-end consumers -- and ultimately showing up in receipts at the retailers who cater to them.

CBS Market Watch

http://tinyurl.com/4wptk

[Trajan]

1. Raises his hand .... Count me in ....

After 26 years in electronics and high tech ....

After making $88,000.00 last year, and $93,000.00 the year before ....

We stand to total approximately $16,000.00 gross income this year .... plunging 82 % from the prior year .....

Thank you GOP economics philosophy ....

Thank you George Bush and Cronies ....

Thank you for helping us have NOTHING under the christmas tree this year ...

My poor kids ....

[dddem]

7. I don't think you understand

Let me explain (as it was explained to me after my husband lost his job of 23 years),

It's not George Bush's fault we have no money, it's osama's fault. That's why we have to go after all the terrorists (and we all know middle east = terrorist, it doesn't really matter what country.).

Does that make you feel any better about our fearless leader? It sure made a difference to me and my creditors!

I know it's hard to believe, but there really are people who feel this way. Sometimes I think I'm going to actually physically explode. My brain can't take it anymore.

Best of luck to you. If it's any consolation to you (and I know it damned well isn't) you're not alone.

[AP]

17. That's what fascism is all about. Accept less because you're just lucky

to be alive.

That's why FDR made it so clear to people that we had to be happy, wealthy, and well-paid in order to be strong internationally.

He may have, but I can't think of one time when he told Americans they needed to suffer for America to be safe. He said Americans needed to be strong for America to be strong.

And he always framed WWII in terms of a fight between wealth-distributing Democracies and fascist imperialists who ruled by fear and oppression.

[Kurovski]

55. And you can't have a strong dictatorship

without a weak middle-class.

[genieroze]

41. Wow, I thought it was Clinton's fault. lol eom

[midnight armadillo]

91. Almost

More specifically, it's the fault of Clinton's penis.

[ribrepin]

50. Just explain to your creditors that it's their patriotic duty

to forgive your debt. When explained in the right way they will understand. If they don't play ball, threaten to report them to homeland security. Sarcasm off.

Mr. ribrepin is being laid off Friday and supposedly rehired by the new owner. We'll see about that. We are already struggling to get by on the same pay because everything has gone up. But inflation is low. Yeah right.

[Anakin Skywalker]

132. Or even Christian charity?

I read somewhere here in DU that Christians are supposed to forgive debts or something like that.

[msgadget]

105. You should've saved more money

is what I read online when one freeper complains to another. And, also, there is no 'right to work' here in the US, y'know. So, really, the two of you liberal whiners oughta just get over yourselves. :puke:

Christians responding like that to people having hard times are why the new right is so appalling . This has become one ruthless nation, driven entirely by the multinational corporation's puruit of profit and competitiveness. The poorest right winger believes we have to help them achieve their goals even when we, the little guy, suffers. These same people, many of them similarly un- or underemployed, think rich people deserve to pay fewer taxes and wonder why do we liberals hate that CEOs take home such fat packages every year. I don't get it. It's not rational.

I recall a time when the auto industry was freaking out about robots replacing workers in auto plants and pointing to Japan as a good example of how a country should run because they guaranteed their people jobs for life. Well, now that they HATE every other country, would they still oppose that sort of security here?

My very best to the both of you. :thumbsup: :hug:

Edit for commas and smilies:

[Just Me]

13. Our poor children,...

Thank God they are so resilient. My son has had to go without for a couple of years while I desperately tried to find full-time employment for a living wage. He has done far better than I!! Fortunately, next month, I'll finally start working again.

It's not just our kids at home that are hit with these hard times (that are being down-played by the leadership). I have met so many recent college grads who have been unable to secure jobs and are terribly confused because that education was supposed to ensure their ability to get a job.

And the numbers being "invented" (unemployment, new jobs) wreaks total cognitive dissonance on all those struggling through these times.

[Wright Patman]

52. Went to the wrong college

Didn't they hear? Chimpy told them to go to community college.

[Iris]

84. We should probably stop selling the idea that college is a sure ticket to

job. It's not.

[Bono71]

87. Agree with that, though it helps.

[Iris]

88. Yes. It does help but not for the reasons people think it does. n/t

[AP]

101. We should be educationg more people and putting them in less (or no)

debt in the process.

[msgadget]

106. But it SHOULD be.

Why must our kids settle for trade school and community colleges just so we can outsource to India's graduates?

[Iris]

124. Well, college never was vocational school.

No one wants to really put in money into education. They just want to try to force it to be something it's not.

[laheina]

127. Few will even be able to afford the community colleges.

With the steep incline in fees, books, and parking, even community college is becoming unfordable.

In CA the Boobengrabber has raised tuition alone over 100% in his first year in office. He wants to raise it over another 300% for people who have already received a degree. Couple this with the sharp cut backs in financial aid, and it is starting to look pretty ugly.

[llmart]

34. I don't want this to sound like I'm complaining.....

but my husband is now making what he did 20 years ago. It's still a good salary compared to most, but it doesn't buy what it did 20 years ago. Our health care costs have gone up as has everything else. We're just lucky our two children are grown and on their own. I put all the money I make into a passbook savings account - don't spend any of it. Retirement doesn't look good to us right now and I don't want to resort to eating cat food if I don't have to:)

[bvar22]

44. No need to have regrets!

According to the FREE TRADERS, your losses are someone else's gains! It ALL BALANCES OUT! So cheer up. Somewhere in China, someone is making more money!

You just have some sour grapes.
It's a Global Economy! Sure, some Americans will be hurt for 5 or 6 generations. Sure, most American parents can no longer promise their children a better life, but look how much better the RICH folks are doing.
You'll feel much better as soon as you just accept the fact that you are a piece of shit, and nobody in the Republican Party or the Democratic Party is going to do ANYTHING to help you!

There now. Don't you feel better.
Please send more money to the DNC/DLC so they can help you some more.

[Megahurtz]

104. Yeah and Fuck Bush and his Cronies for that one.

[Mari333]

2. The New Gilded Age.

I not only dont buy anything, I WONT buy anything. It feels good not to buy one goddamned thing from corporate America.

[shanti]

22. how do you accomplish not buying anything?

:shrug: do you buy used only?

[Mari333]

23. used...I just dont buy anything, cept for food.

Now that Im a widow I have to be extra careful because I am all I have to take care of myself..
I found out I dont need much in life to get by.

[llmart]

28. Here's what I do.....

I buy only what is "necessary" even though I can well afford to buy more. It's called voluntary simplicity. Food is necessary. I buy used clothing. We keep and maintain our cars for 15 years. Ask yourself every time you pick up an item to buy, "can I live without this?" Most of the time your answer will be "yes."

We have been conditioned in this stupid American country that buying = happiness and fulfillment yet we are a country of people taking Prozac and meannness is rampant. So obviously all this consumption ISN'T making us content. We're time-starved, love-starved, and meaning-starved.

I do allow myself to buy tickets to music events, theater, and a new pair of walking shoes twice a year, but other than that, what do I need? A roof over my head and food in my stomach. And, speaking of food, we consume too much of that in this country too!

[bvar22]

45. AND....a hi-speed INet connection.

[llmart]

59. I don't have a high-speed internet connection.....

it's dial up- $6 per month. I get my news off the internet - don't watch TV or subscribe to newspapers and magazines.

Simple living is not about deprivation - it's about making wise choices.

[ExclamationPoint]

107. Well you also would need Music

If we didn't have art and music liberals probably would be suseptible to constant screaming fits. I need my Beatles, my Greenday, my Franz Ferdinand, and My Goldfinger to keep me alive. :headbang:
(You could just ILLEGALY DOWNLOAD it though) JK

[Bouncy Ball]

63. Yep

I've been driving my car for six years now and plan to drive it until the body rusts out, the wheels fall off and it won't go an inch further.

[bobbieinok]

117. with rheumatoid arthritis and a slippped disk, it's unpleasant to shop,

which I used to enjoy quite a bit.

I'm constantly amazed how much I've saved, even though I eat out at least 2 times a week. (I live alone, so I only need to plan for myself.)

[sandnsea]

36. It's amazingly simple

When you don't have tons of money, you don't buy. So even when you do have, you've already learned how stupid most of that junk is to begin with. I personally only buy used, even furniture etc, because I'm trying to help cut down on what goes into landfills as well. There's very little reason to buy anything new in this country.

[llmart]

27. Me, too Mari333.....

Haven't supported this fascist capitalistic regime for the past 4 years, and refuse to do so for the next four. Let all those wealthy bastards see what happens when the middle class no longer has money to prop up their lifestyles. Some people here at DU say boycotting doesn't work, but I say it does. As soon as we all stop spending on shit we don't need and can do without the better off this country will be. We are a spiritually bankrupt country because of our conspicuous consumption.

I fear the majority of the idiots in this country won't get this until it's forced upon them by a depression.

[Ms_Mary]

29. I try to focus my energy on trying to buy from small business instead

There are a lot of things I don't buy anymore, mostly because I don't seem to have the means anymore. Because I differentiate between corporate America and small business. That's largely because I run a small business. But seriously, when your economy is supported by a strong group of local businesses, money gets recycled back into the community and jobs are created locally. If you can create a locally sustainable economy, you are less affected by loss of manufacturing jobs, etc. Or at least that's my idealistic theory. I'll let you know how it works out for me. Right now, I'm struggling.

[shrike]

89. I patronize locally-owned businesses whenever possible

They are not THAT much more expensive than a big box. Plus, there is someone at the counter to answer my questions and find what I need. Service is impeccable at a small business. Easy in, easy out; that's the way I like it.

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

33. I wonder...

... how much of that philosophy amongst us here has played into Walmart's whining over only ".07%" growth the past year.

Keep it up, I have been this way for over a decade, refusing to splurge on "things I don't need".

[llmart]

60. I've been at it for a decade also......

but found that I got better and better at it with each passing year. It's actually quite fun to be outside the mainstream of this idiotic society. And I just love to tell people about it also, because then they start squirming and realizing that they are stupid to fall into the consumption trap while people like me are comfortable without all the crap.

[Tight_rope]

79. I can definately say that I've helped with Walmarts .07% growth only

I've shopped at Walmart only 4 times in the last year. And today was one. I bought 2 items and my total with tax came to $3.44.

[WCGreen]

130. I've been in a WalMart once

in the last 5 years....

And that was to placate my 85 year old mother in law who, without her help, Mrs. WC Green and I would be out on the street..

Five years ago we made a combine 85k, we had no kids a great retirement and were paying down the debt.....

I got Sick, she lost her job and within five years, all is gone.....

[SmokingJacket]

65. Check out Freecycle.

We have it in our city. It's a weblist of free stuff -- if you don't want something you have, someone does. And if you watch it carefully, you'll fill a lot of your own needs from other people's leftovers.

It works AMAZINGLY well. Last week I got rid of some nice toys my kids are too old for, and picked up a coat to replace one my son grew out of. No money exchanged at all.

You can find ANYTHING on it. Worst part of it is looking through the tons and tons and TONS of free stuff.

[driver8]

77. Wow!! Freestyle sounds like a great idea... n/t

[not fooled]

133. eBay (despite Chen*y)

Whenever I need household stuff, I usually go to eBay first. Often get nicer quality than the cheap shit made nowadays. Plus, usually for a much better price. I just got a great heater for $50.

Plus, it feels much better to give my $ to another American who needs to get rid of stuff than go to a Target or WM and funnel money to 'puke supporters (+ Chinese slave laborers).

[jayfish]

135. You Need To Keep That Info To Yourself.

If corporate interest even gets a whiff that something like this is going on, they will lobby to have it banned. People cannot have free stuff. It is antithetical to the corporations’ god-given right to make you buy the same stuff.

Jay

[okieinpain]

95. you're all missing the point. jesus, doesn't like gay marriage. why

are you guy's talking about jobs. dumb liberals.

[stepnw1f]

125. Long Time No See

Good to see you here. Haven't been seeing veterans for a while.

I refuse to buy corporate. And get by just fine. All my friends are doing the same. Let's see... that's how many lost customers? Oh well...

[Ardee]

3. Long term pattern

The middle class has been slowly disappearing for a long time now, way before Bush, even before Bush41, or Reagan for that matter. The wealth has been migrating to fewer and fewer, in fact the top 1% has more of it than the bottom 1 million...thanks NPR for the data.

Why are folks not questioning what is going on, why are corporate scandals simply shrugged off, why are vast numbers of people not voting in such times of crisis, why are union folks increasingly voting GOP?

Good questions all...ask your local Democratic Party office for some answers......

[Deja Q]

9. The roots were sewn with Nixon's trip to China

BY 1974, the slow dismantling of America's infrastructure had begun.

Reagan started the plummet, however.

[Ardee]

11. Actually maybe not

Nature seeks balance, the vast majority of the world could not be expected to remain dirt poor in order to inflate artificially our lifestyles here in the good old US of A.....

Instead of recognizing the needs of the third world to have decent lives , instead of encouraging the shift from manufacturing to services and new technologies domestically, a move that most economists would say will bring great amounts of jobs and wealth to the USA, what did we do? Why hoard our wealth, offshore our factories without regard to air, water or human necesities.....in other words , we made terrorism inevitable......think about it.

[jwirr]

70. For industry it may have been

Nixon who started it but in the 1950s farm policies both of government and agribuz started putting the small family farmers out of business. I suspect it started even before that since the little 40 acre farms moved to 80 acres and then in the 1950s to 180 acres and so on. This move to bigger - better - more - overseas has hit almost every area of economic life in our culture. It comes with capitalism that is operated without concern for people.

[AP]

20. Why don't folks complain? Because cable is the opiate of the masses.

Something like only 4% of all news stories over a 3 month period during the GE this year were about the economy. In the last 10 days of the eleciton many of them (and especially Fox) reported that the economy was getting better.

People are not informed about the economic issues in America today, and they don't understand the structural problems. They're told that everyone is doing well, and if you're not doing well it's because of some problem you have, and not becuase of anythign the government is doing.

[Ardee]

38. OK say you are correct in your assumption

that the media is biased to the right....Two questions;

First, why then do the right wing types scream about the left wing media bias?

Second, why cannot a national organisation, as well financed and connected as is the Democratic Party, not get any messages out?

[AP]

42. Have you read Adam Nagourney's blog?

With all that said, mea culpa. Over the course of the campaign, beginning with the primaries, because I knew deep down that I supported John Kerry, and through the Presidential election, because I knew his opponent wanted to demonize people like me, I found it necessary to write in such a way that would make people believe the opposite. This is called being objective, I will not apologize for that. However, there were times when I had to sort of exaggerate or report things “imprecisely” in order to be objective and though I will not apologize for that, I will acknowledge that some people might think I should.


However, there were occasions where I derided Kerry for such subjective things as a lack of charisma, even in comparison to myself. This was not objective. Obviously when comparing yourself to a candidate, you may give yourself “extra points”. Please remember though, John Kerry is tall. Studies show taller people generally have an easier time with things- they slide by. When I was at USA Today, before I was at the Times, I was the third shortest person on the political beat. The point is, however, that I was on the Charlie Rose Show at the time of said indiscretion, which, if any of you have ever been on (I’ve been on numerous times), you know, Charlie expects you to have such things to say.


So, again, mea culpa. Know that I am not happy about Bush being reelected either. Believe me, if you knew what I knew about this administration, you’d feel even worse- not to mention, if you knew what I knew about how genuinely impressive John Kerry can be… well anyways…

http://www.adamnagourney.com/index.php?m=200411

OK, it's a joke. But that's the truth. You have media owners who want to make more money. You scare people into being afraid to sound too liberal. They help the right wing get their messages out. They pretend that they were just being objective.

As for the Dem party getting together with somebody to buy a media company: that's not the business they're in. Furthermore, they busted their asses raising 250 mil for a presidental run. Starting a media co that could rival fox and CNN is a 5 billion dollar endeavour.

[Ardee]

47. I never suggested

that the Dems should purchase a media outlet...I would not be in favor of such a thing at all.Just as I am not in favor of the Rupert Murdoch's and Sun Myong Moon's owning media for the express purpose of slanting news in favor of political opinion.

Believe it or no, the majority of news outlets in this nation are still fairly unbiased outside of the editorial pages....It isnt the media its the message, or lack thereof from the democrats that is the problem here today.

All the pissing and moaning going on from democrats is a smokescreen from people unwilling or unable to see that their party has abandoned them.

[natrat]

58. unbiased? lying by omission is biased

[Ardee]

61. Its a bit more complicated than you state

Of course there is some outright lying going on...Washington Times is cover to cover lies and distortions, but sometimes omissions occur for honest reasons. Laziness, believing WH sources , not fact checking, corner cutting in staffing and ,sometimes, pandering to advertisers who might be less than pleased with total disclosures all lead to omissions sans lies.......again I stand by my belief that the majority of news reporting in this country is unbiased, now editorial boards are another thing.

[reprobate]

24. Two reasons:

1. Americans are uneducated and so don't feel the cognative dissonance when the media falsifies the real news.

2. The Democratic Party is no longer an opposition party. It is owned by the same wealth as the Repuglican Party and therefore votes the same way. Don't look to the democrats for answers, they are a big part of the problem.

[Ardee]

39. I got your back on half of that

I agree wholeheartedly with number two, Al From represents the Democratic Party rather well and he is a freaking republican to me.

I cannot accept that the entire nation (or even the 51% of voters who went for Bush bullshit again) is uneducated......uninvolved certainly, uninformed , well maybe, lost without any real choices, absolutely!

[Art_from_Ark]

83. Of course the top 1% has more wealth than the bottom million

since the top 1% is equal to about 2.7 million. Perhaps "bottom 100 million" is what you wanted to say? :shrug:

[yorkiemommie1]

113. when i ask my husband these things...

he seems to imply that we don't 'deserve' the big tax cuts etc etc.

i point out that the lawmakers can structure laws any way they want and that they are favoging the wealthy. he doesn't 'get' this.
very servile point of view, like a medieval peasant.

[bobbieinok]

119. because most people in this country, whatever their actual situation,

believe they too will someday be rich....look at the number of people who play the lottery every week....why else would nearly every state now have a lottery.....and don't they still have those ads at the back of many magazines 'become wealthy in your spare time'

and all those infomercials about how to make a killing in real estate, etc

I first noticed this mind-set (we're all rich or soon will be) in the 50s

raising taxes on the wealthy, having estate taxes, capital gains taxes, etc, means that when I get rich I won't have as much money as I should

this also may be why a lot of people vote republican: 'they're the party of the rich, and even if I'm not rich now maybe it'll rub off on me'

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

4. Put simply: Capitalism is like a Monopoly game....

There's a beginning, a middle and an end. And in the end, someone has all the property and the game is over.

[Ardee]

12. Dont land on Boardwalk buddy

Ive got two hotels built there!

[reprobate]

25. Very well put. In other words, capitalism is a zero sum game.

In order for me to win, you have to lose. But why doesn't anyone realize that? Could it be that for centuries we have been bombarded with propoganda that god is on the side of the capitalists?

If capitalism is so wonderful why do the scandinavian countries seem so much happier than americans?

Could it be that we just refuse to see the truth?

[llmart]

30. In answer to your question.....

yes. We refuse to see the truth. And we refuse to look to other countries for solutions because for too long we've been brainwashed to think that we have all the answers in this country and we're superior to all other countries. It's a dangerous attitude.

[lastliberalintexas]

40. USA! USA! USA!

Yep, how dare anyone even suggest that we might want to look at how they do it in other countries? Forget that the other so-called industrialized countries of the world have universal healthcare, better pre-natal care, lower infant mortality rates, a better educated/more knowledgeable populace, less poverty, and better pensions to take care of their elderly and disabled. WE'RE #1, dammit. I'm just not so sure at what anymore.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

56. Like Ragged Dick, we will all be successful.

All it takes is work and drive, then others will serve you.
</sarcasm>

Americans have been brainwashed and engaged in a perverted group think... To America: "you want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!"

[TwentyFive]

96. Capitalism is best!

Properly defined, capitalism is where the means of production is privately owned. You can debate the merits of laissez-faire capitalism vs democratic capitalism, and the degrees between each...but the bottom line is that private production is almost always better than government production. (Can you imagine the government building cars?)

Bush and the republicans 'say' they are free market capitalists - but that is a huge lie.

They are fascists.

Bush runs the government, the media is well consolidated....and just one policy decision can make a company extremely wealthy. And if your friends run a company like Halliburton....it's like shooting fish in a barrel! Phony war, no bid contracts, billions of $$$$$, lapdog media and tons of oil waiting to be taken from a dictator. Nothing capitalistic about this.

[Fovea]

120. always better?

"Can you imagine the government building cars?"
Can you imagine Honda building the Hoover dam?
I think that the 'always better' idea is pure propaganda.
Some things are great, like Adam Smith's pin factory.
Some things, like the Tennessee Valley Authority, could not have been done, and indeed, would not have been done even by gilded age tycoons.

Further, I would trade our health care syndicate for the Canadian system any day of the week.

[alaintex]

140. I worked on the last nuclear plant the TVA built...

The only thing the government did on that job was put up 30 billion dollars of tax payer money and make bad decisions.

All the work was done by employees of private companies willing to take money from the government.

[alaintex]

98. I don’t think I can buy that idea.

I’m no economist, but in order for me to win, you have to lose isn’t the way capitalism works.

We used to have very wealthy people and “live in one room shack shanty towns” all over the country. Today we have way more fabulously wealthy people (Bill Gates probably single handedly has more wealth than the entire US did a couple hundred years ago) and we don’t have correspondingly poorer people.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

126. Stop by any homeless shelter in any medium to large city.

We have poor, we ust choose to ignore them.

[heidler1]

48. I loved to play monopoly as a kid and it did add to my education.

However, those who excel at monopoly are apt to inherit the unintended consequence of socialistic changes that they wrought. If you look at "The Christmas Carol" wherein Marley's Ghost admitted to Scrooge that he had wrought his own chains link by link in life. I believe a better view is to see the inevitable end game against excessive greed will be Socialism or even worse Communism. Basic redistribution of wealth becomes necessary.

The reason that Europe and Asia have more Socialism is because they have lived through and seen first hand what all out greed with its debtor prisons and other extremes causes and are therefore more receptive of Socialism. You have to expect them to regress and retry all out greed because they too are human and will see some wisp of advantage in doing so. We here in the US society are still so blind sided that we can't even agree that health care for everyone is good.

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. When I was a kid, and my sisters and I played monopoly,

when one of us got too depleted, we'd each chip in and donate money to keep that player in the game.

I guess we just didn't get it.

[daleo]

76. I read "Put simply" as "Put chimply" at first

It would have fit, though, as what you said is a very Bush-like interpretation of life (no offense to you, I know your statement was critical of the system and this mentality).

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

82. Ouch! That hurt,,, The truth always does.

Simplistic is fine in discussing something like this on the web, but if I were... oh, deciding on going to war...

[teryang]

5. Wait till interest rates go up and housing bubble bursts

There are signs that the housing market is already losing gas. This article confirms the loss of momentum I have observed in my own neighborhood as the game of musical chairs appears ready to end:

http://www.kitco.com/ind/Benson/nov042004.html

Home Values Built on Rotten Foundations

By Richard Benson

November 4, 2004
http://www.sfgroup.org

<Looking back at the facts, it is easy to see that the foundation for housing prices is rotting fast. Buyers have stretched the truth, in every possible way, in order to buy the most expensive house for the lowest possible monthly payment. Given the fraudulent loan underwriting and emphasis on Adjustable Rate mortgages and sub-prime loans, it is clear that any rise in mortgage rates will bury housing.>

<Does housing always go up forever? In the United Kingdom where housing prices have soared like in America, prices fell last month. Real estate agents can't be found to talk about it, as it is bad for business. In San Diego, housing prices have been flat the last couple of months while the supply of homes for sale has jumped from a 2-month to an 8-month supply. >

<In Las Vegas there is an unfolding house price debacle. The national public has heard that the large developer, Pulte Homes, has cut new home prices by 8 to 25 percent, and 25 percent of new homes on order have just been cancelled. However, the public hasn't heard that i) 20 to 40 percent of sales in new planned unit developments were to speculators; ii) For-Rent signs in the complexes are everywhere. (To make some easy money on the flip, buyers of second and third homes planned to rent them out first); and, iii) Homes that sold for $750,000 just three months ago are across the street from homes that the same developer is selling today at a nice profit for $550,000. "The Las Vegas housing market has crapped out!" >

<In the United States, the supply of new homes has risen steadily to a 275 day supply. Six of the 14 largest home builders have debt-to-equity ratios of 95 percent, and home builders know exactly what the car companies know: "If you want to move inventory, cut the price!">

The economic vulnerability of large numbers of home owners due to overextended credit is described in some detail.

[Ardee]

14. Funny you mention that

My financial advisor (first cousin and VP of Merrill) has told me to consider selling my house while the market is topped, invest in a small condo until my (imminent) retirement, thus ensuring my comfort in old age. He said that homes in "certain" areas (like the one HE lives in) will continue to remain highly prized and priced but ,for the vast majority of home owners, their sell price will begin to steadily decline, and soon.....

Want to buy a nice three bedroom home near the ocean for only 599K?

[lastliberalintexas]

16. I've been trying to convince my husband of that

Get out while the getting is good. We're one of the few people who bought in the last 6 years who actually have equity in our home, and I'm scared to death that we're going to lose it. (the equity, not the home- though you never know...)

Though my home is a steal compared to yours- 3 BR, 2 bath, 6years old, lake"view" and walking distance to a golf course, and I'd sell it for $150,000. One of the very few good things about living in Texas...

[teryang]

19. No, but thanks for the offer

The author of the Millionaire Next Door said that the liquidity of homes over $500K would not present the problem that the homes between 200 and 500K presented in hard times. Here again it is the middle range that suffers. This is similar to the phenomenon where the sale of luxury cars doesn't decline during hard times while the majority drive jalopies or end up on foot or bicycle. This problem is already widespread as many drive with third party registrations, false plates, no licenses and no insurance because they can't pay their repeated traffic fines nor afford insurance.

I bought a small home (and was mocked by a wealthy associate and not so wealthy subordinates) because I knew that the inflating insurance and tax burdens would rapidly approach the level of PI payments. I'm in Florida, my brother has the same problem in New York only worse. This is the same situation my parents were in after the Vietnam conflict wreaked havoc on the economy. I vowed to myself not to get into this situation but all I could do was minimize it as I had to find housing. I've noticed that the average sized homes in my neighborhood are not moving after substantial price increases in the last three years, while the smallest units still trade at inflated prices.

[Ardee]

21. are you sure?

Anyway , out here, Northern California 13 miles south of SF, 500K IS an inexpensive home!

[NuttyFluffers]

66. that IS an inexpensive home... for that area.

though i'd get tired of the fog out there in the daly city/pacifica area. beautiful location and sounds somewhat affordable compared to the mad prices elsewhere.

i'm now hearing the housing prices in tracy are now inching close to the $500k mark -- that's a stunner. i don't think i'd pay for that, but people gotta live somewhere.

[Ardee]

67. Hell yeah

Even as far away as Oroville (I fish the Sacto and the Feather) new homes are above 300K........

PS I live in Linda Mar, a valley that remains fog free......lucky me.

[NuttyFluffers]

75. ahh, that is lucky.

i always wondered why orinda/lafayette/moraga area was so desirable. it's beautiful, but i feel like an elf in the misty forests when i'm there. fun and all but it does get old fast. and mildew is bad for sinuses. :)

sac is becoming expensive too, stunning. i have no illusions, being somewhat young i won't be able to own a home here anytime soon. hence my goal to move to europe or japan -- make some money and come on back.

[Ardee]

97. Oregon

Go north, my buddy bought a two bedroom honme on a dead end street in Reedsport for $40,000. Large back yard and 5 minutes from the Umpquah River......

[grasswire]

112. uh..........

....as a native Oregonian who has seen property values driven sky-high by the influx of Californians who ruined their own state, I SURE hate to encourage more migration. Anyone thinking of leaving California for Oregon should know that many Oregonians are resentful of the harm the migration has done to our fair state. Our economy is not good and unemployment is second highest in the U.S. More Oregonians are hungry than in any other state. Real estate in the cities and suburbs is sky-high. The formerly glorious Oregon Health Plan is now closed to further applicants for lack of funds.

So come if you must, but come knowing the downside.

[Ardee]

128. Too late

Ive owned property in Oregon since 1976, am planning to retire there at least a portion of the year and I have guarranteed health care with retirement..........sorry.

[girl gone mad]

69. We also bought less than we could have afforded.

We found a home with a lot of character (built by the former owner) and enough land to garden and raise chickens. I'm hoping that being in the low range will provide at least some stability in the event of a RE bubble burst. We've also got some protection against rising interest rates in that our mortgage is transferrable.

I'm planning on installing new kitchen counters and doing other bits of home improvement, but I'm not thinking about increasing the value of our home so much as maintaining it's curb appeal and hedging a bit against inflation.

[progressoid]

90. Great, where are these 'certain' areas?

For the last three years we've been sinking deeper in debt. Most of it related to our house. I'm in IA in a middle income home in a middle size city but not making middle income wages anymore. The house may have to go. It'll kill my wife but I can't see any other options at this point.

[bobbieinok]

122. housing in IA.......lived in central IA from 68 to 89

In 98, my son and his wife bought a house (2 bedroom, attic room, basement) in the town for $90+K. I totally freaked out, and then they showed me what had been available at lower prices (60-75K).

My ex and I and many of our friends realized in the early 80s that at that point we could not afford to buy the houses we had bought in the late 60s-early 70s. From my son's experience, that must be even more true today.

(the city has a captive population--students, faculty, some headquarters of major IA departments)

[grasswire]

108. I've been trying to convince my sister to do that.

She really ought to get the equity out of the house now, as she plans to downsize in a couple of years anyway. Now is the hour. Don't wait. Sell now, rent for a while, and then buy for much less money.

[midnight armadillo]

92. Another sign

I was browsing the real estate ads, as I like to do to torture myself here in th Boston area with the unaffordability of housing. We're looking at 2 years of saving and eliminating (medical related) credit card debt before we're buying.

A week and a half a ago the realtors were claiming the best quarter ever. And here was an ad with the seller offering $5k towards the buyer's closing costs!! Something does not compute... (the house was a 2 bed ranch, 0.07 acres, for $329k).

[TreasonousBastard]

6. This lousy news has been around for awhile...

and the article doesn't mention the loss in real wages for most people. Or skyrocketing housing and health costs.

Haven't checked the latest median family income figures, but the 50 grand or so it's been hovering around just doesn't cut it in many areas of the country.

If you're in the half under 50 grand, you're screwed. Even if you're in the lower rungs of the top half, you're seeing your disposable income drop.

The people with the tax cuts are still happily spending, and there is little or no "trickle down." Cadillac sales may be up, but they'll sell one more Cadillac for every five or six Pontiacs they lose.

[MatrixEscape]

10. Yes, and luxury items are skyrocketing ...

There is a run on over $10 mil. dollar properties. They can't make the private jets fast enough. Luxery cars are flying out of the showrooms, etc. Lots of back orders!

The wealthy are spending like there is no tomorrow all of a sudden ... on luxury items, that is. Well, with those nice tax breaks, why not buy a yacht or two?

[Deja Q]

8. Been that way for 25 straight years.

No 1992-2000 reprieve. And the pattern will ultimately lead to our fall.

Cancel the tax cuts, drop that gap of wage between average worker and CEO back to 40x instead of 600x. Put jobs in this country.

Yes, some cheap plastic shit might cost a bit more, but the dollar of the wealthy will mean just as little if the economy crashes.

And no national sales tax. That will only compound the problem. People will not buy as much because their buying power has dropped. The wealthy can, but they aready spend little. And the wealthy account for something like 1% of the population. So the national sales tax is nothing more than kicking the 90+% of us in the gonads once again.

Having fun people? Still like *, given everything that's come out since Nov 2? Amazing, what wonderful timing all this stuff has come out. x(

[gizmo1979]

15. it boggles the mind

that corp America can't seem to figure out who buys their products.they keep getting their tax breaks and shipping more jobs overseas,meanwhile the middle classes taxes go up and their jobs pay squat.Then corp America whines because sales are down.earth to all the rich pukes we have no money fool!!!

[lastliberalintexas]

18. They don't think long term

None of them- Corporate America, republicans, neo-cons, or the End Times fundies. At least the End Timers have a reason not to think about the long term...

But Corporate America hasn't been able to see past the next quarterly earnings reports for some time now. Apparently they've abandoned the teaching of real economic theory at business schools- it's just all about how you can make the balance sheet look good for the quarter.

Welcome to DU!

[Tight_rope]

81. You are so right!

Many can't see past the quarterly earnings report. Their theology is that when the time comes when things are looking bad, they will just revamp the way the advertise their product. We all know these tricks (New and improved, added scents, added quantity like 20% more, $19.99 after rebate, and the biggest one is "SALE"). All those bullshit tricks. Years ago when I was worked retail while in school. An item is not on Sale unless it's 66% or more off! No 50% if not really a sale. See if an item originally cost $19.99 and is now on Sale for $9.99, the store still makes a 200% profit because it really only paid $5.00 for that item from the manufacture.

[ikojo]

129. No, it does NOT boggle the mind...corporate America or corporate India

does not care WHO buys their products. Consider this:

US population: approx. 300 million people
India population: approx ONE BILLION (may be more but I have heard a billion)
China population: OVER ONE BILLION

Now, if corporate America can get 20% of Chinese and Indians to adopt an American middle class lifestyle(cars, credit cards, private home ownership, conspicuous consumption) that is already MORE than the total population in the US.

Not only do they get cheap labor but a potentially HUGE consumer market.

Something to think about.

[The Zanti Regent]

26. Guess Jesus ain't doin his job.

Lot of fools say they still have Jesus, even though Jesus isn't putting food on the table, paying the bills or putting a roof over their heads.

Folks, you ain't seen nothing yet!

[abelenkpe]

74. when do you think the bottom will drop out?

Everyone I know keeps pointing out all the economic indicators and historical indicators seem to warn that the economy is going to take a dive. When do you see this happening? Do you think there will be a draft? So far the stock market has gone up since bush was reelected. Do you think it is a temporary bounce? I'm just trying to prepare myself. Yet everyday things just stay the same. I don't know if I am disappointed or relieved.

[Fovea]

121. May 05

n/t

[MADem]

31. I see it everywhere

The middle class that I once knew is now the "lower middle class" and the "working poor." There are a few people I know who are making it BIG--one works for a pharmaceutical company, surprise, surprise, and has been able to build a huge addition to what was once a modest home, happily drive a pigmobile (gas guzzling SUV) and take vacations that are paid for by commissions from selling legal drugs.

The attitude of these people is "Fuck you--I got MINE." It boggles the mind that this is our society. Cold, uncaring bastards. Where the hell did they come from?????? How did they learn to BE like that? This is not the America I grew up in. I think that place is GONE, sad to say.

I don't participate in the consumer society anymore, either. My motto is "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without." I will not go into a WALMART, I find them hideous places. If I have to buy something, I consider price, but I also consider where the money is going. I prefer to support local businesses whenever I reasonably can. But I think twice before I buy...

[kineneb]

71. part of lower class now

Hubby used to make $44K while working at WorldCom. Then in 2002 they laid him off along with several thousand others. Who will hire an over-50 male with health problems for a tech job? No one. Never mind those jobs have all been "offshored" to India and other places.

So...we sold the house, took what profit we could from it and moved to the country where we could afford to purchase almost outright. In that, we were lucky.

Now I am the one who works full-time for $20K/yr with no benefits. To get the medical care Hubby needs we had to spend down all of our assets to get on Calif.'s rural indigent medical plan, which costs us $500/month! Get this, the state assumes that 2 adults can "live" on $934/mo before taxes! Anything over that is "share-of-cost." Stinks when one goes to the doc to be hit up beforehand for $500 before they will see you. Of course not all of his medicines are covered so they have to be paid out in cash/credit. Air conditioning is required due to his medical condition, so that eats up lots of money in the summer.

I would love to never darken the door of WalMart. Unfortunately, it and RiteAid are the only large stores with 25 miles. And being a rural area, the roads to get to any other town are all 2 lanes. I always think twice before I buy, since most things, like clothing have to be ordered from catalogs...no malls here in the boonies. Our budget and the distances involved force us to be cautious in our spending. This Christmas the relatives are getting my hand-spun, hand-knit stuff, and if they don't like it because it isn't glossy and high-tech- Tough! Being on the edge of insolvancy sucks!

[Megahurtz]

100. California's full of "Fuck you--I got MINE" ers

with Bush's brown-nosed fascist buddy in charge. The way things are going the middle class will soon join the poor. The rich just don't care. As long as they get to go home to their cush million dollar houses and wealthy lifestyles each night, they care about NO ONE. Bush and the GOP have conditioned society for this scenario, and it's only going to get worse.

[grasswire]

111. leave California

Seriously. As an Oregonian, I rarely like to see Californians move north (their migration has driven up our housing costs and polluted our proud NW identity), but you really would benefit by living in a smaller town in Oregon or Washington. Your rent would probably be quite a bit lower. And if you choose a temperate area, air conditioning will be unnecessary.

[Megahurtz]

139. You're right, I used to live

in Oregon and Washinton both, got dragged back here several years ago due to custody issues for my daughter. California sucks. If you're poor here you're screwed. And if you need ANY help from the State for legal issues (consumer law as well as other laws, like if you get robbed by a corporation) the CA Attorney General, and private attorneys will do NOTHING for you unless you are affluent and have MONEY. I want to move back up north sometime fairly soon I hope......

[driver8]

78. You are exactly right!

MADem, you are absolutely right. I see that attitude "I got MINE!" all the time and it makes me so mad. My wife and I would never go into WalMart; they could be giving things away and I would not step foot in there. They push small businesses out and treat their employees like shit. I will not contribute to that.

It also makes me angry that we have been warned that the oil of the world is being used up and I am still seeing commercials on tv for Hummers. WTF? Don't these people know what they are doing? I'm sure most don't care.

[RaleighNCDUer]

94. Want a good indicator?

Look for cosmetic damage on cars. The dented side panel. The cracked tail light. The crumpled bumper.

When things are really starting to get tight, if the damage is not critical to the car's running, people collect the insurance and use the money for other things, or they don't report the damage to the insurance companies for fear their rates will go up.

That's what I've been seeing.

[NJCher]

99. I've been seeing it, too

Only difference is it's mostly on SUVs. Wonder if that makes any difference, actually.

The reason I noticed it is because my friend's car got "keyed." Then I started seeing damage but it was mostly SUVs. Consequently, wondered if SUVs were getting "keyed."


Cher

[llmart]

32. It's also the reason......

abortions are up under the Bush/Cheney administration. People who can't afford to take care of themselves don't want to bring a child into this world that they can't take care of.

[PurityOfEssence]

35. It's the hourglass economy

Actually, it looks a lot more like a short candlestick: very wide at the bottom, skinny in the middle, and a modest bulge at the top.

The untrammeled greed of the would-be aristocrats will destroy this country yet: if the many can't spend, the economy crashes. They may be happy and cocky in their gated communities, but the private security and damage-control costs will take 'em down a peg.

It's sad, really: it's bad enough that so many people have absolutely no concept of "enough", but it's demoralizing how many of them need to be demonstrably better off than the peons in order to feel good about themselves. It's not enough to be sated at the banquet of life, they need to drag in some toothless beggar to throw their bones at in glee.

Worst of all is that this greed is ennobled by our national psyche and enabled by many oddball strains of "religion". Yep, there are acres of diamonds out there, it's your duty to rake 'em up.

[cliss]

62. Amen to that.

I have an interesting question: do the would-be Aristocrats ever consider that if WE go down, THEY might also? Do they really believe that if this country goes down, that they will somehow be immune to the meltdown?

This is what I find so fascinating. This last decade (the Gay 90's) we saw unparalleled success: the market went up up up, real estate, profits, expansion did the same thing. It seemed that we were golden. A lot of it was just an illusion, however. I think that growth was hyped, but no one cared because we were ON TOP.

I personally believe that we went over to the Dark Side during that decade. It set us up for what's to come next: the Slide Down.

So these fools who are Flush With Cash are having a good time now. They believe the 90's are going to continue forever.

My humble prediction: Humpty Dumpty is about to fall off his little perch. It's going to be very difficult to put the pieces back together again. It's going to get a lot worse. Many, many more people are going to lose their jobs.

And like Kurt Russell said in the movie Backdraft as his fireman friend was about to fall through the opening "You go; we go".

[cleofus1]

37. 1/4 million for a house....

Currently in Anchorage


Partly Cloudy 5° degrees
Humidity: 87%
Wind: CLM 0 mph
Press: 29.73 in.
Vis: 10 mi.

Next sunrise: 9:55 a.m.
Next sunset: 3:45 p.m.
Aurora forecast: Active



If you want a nice house 1/2 million...for 90K you can have a broken down mobile home...a fixer upper.

[genieroze]

43. We live in a "Let them eat cake society". eom

[kineneb]

72. and who remembers what happend to them??

If I remember correctly the person to whom that quote is attributed shortly afterwards became about 9" shorter courtesy of Madame Guillotine.
Something about all those rich people living in gated communities need to think about...ya' know they are not that secure and the folks who guard them are paid at near-minimum wage rates...which do not engender "loyality." If the pesants get honked off enough, the gated ones may not be very happy.

Class warfare begins at home, especially when you are hungry.

[hobbit709]

114. The Russian revolution started

when the peasants came to St. Petersburg in 1905 and said "Little Father, give us bread"
The czar ordered the troops to open fire on them. By 1917 the troops sided with the peasants.

[MidwestTransplant]

46. I wonder if Walmart execs. will soon start supporting

Democrats. The Republicans are killing their customer base.

[napi21]

49. That's true, but nobody want's them around anymore.

More and more areas are fighting against letting WM build a store near them, more and more people are shopping at other places as a direct protest against them.

I don't see them having much support on either political side.

[kineneb]

73. hardly

Although not so much "killing off" as starving them out. If the dollar drops enough to cause the Asian markets/Chinese to dump dollars, WM will be out of business. Almost everything there is "Made in China." And we will be SOL too, because we have almost no manufacturing left in this country.

[pokercat999]

85. They have taken action.

They are changing their customer base......moving to China!

[schultzee]

51. What did the idiots who votes for Bush expect? Did they think that

sales would go up on middle class and working class items, when these people have less income. F the rich who voted for *.

[Ed C. Finley]

53. What were they thinking?

Well, as far as my two brothers and mother goes tehy voted for Bush for two reasons. My mother, who has been poor all of my life and who lives on our property in a nice mobile home (we pay all her utilities, and the mobile is paid for) voted for Bush because 1)he was pro life, and (2) she supports the war on terror.

My brothers are pro choice to varying degrees but also support Bush because of the war on terror.

When I told them the war on terror was just an excuse to send troops to the mideast so they could die for Isreali security, all three hit me with the old "the jews are God's chosen people" and whatever it takes to ensure Israels security, we as good christians are duty bound to do it.

Just for the record, I have been voting for president since 1976 and this was the first time I didn't vote republican, (even tho the repubs would put me in jail because I like to indulge in the evil weed). I voted Nader because even tho I didn't agree with him on anything at least his mid-east policy was better than the two "main-stream" candidates.

[Skittles]

57. a thinking person could not possibly vote for Bush

and honestly, now - no thinking person could possibly vote republican unless they support fascism.

[TygrBright]

102. Don't you remember Adlai Stevenson?

Or at least the urban legend about him? (It never really happened, but it's reached folklore status so I'll tell it as though it did...)

After a particularly thoughtful and interesting speech on the campaign trail, a woman came up to shake his hand, and said, "Mr. Stevenson, that was wonderful! I'm sure every thinking person in America will vote for you."

And he (allegedly) replied, "Madam, that's not enough. I need a majority."

ruefully,
Bright

[lovuian]

54. When 80% of th wealth of a country is in the hands of a few!!! that spells

Depression!!!

[bhikkhu]

68. Some statistics...

From Beeghley's "Structure of Social Stratification in the United States" (2000). In 1995 the richest 1% owned 56% of bonds, 72% of business assets, 45% of trust funds, 43% of all privately held stock.

As far as net worth, the top 1% in 1995 held 7.2 trillion, the next 9% 6.8 trillion, and the remaining ninety percent of the population 6.5 trillion.

These numbers are dated, and the current numbers are probably worse.

[EndElectoral]

64. The Middle Class? They're all waiting to hit the lottery...

[Forkboy]

80. Of course the poor aren't getting poorer...we're as poor as we can get

:mad:

[Megahurtz]

103. Amen buddy!!!

[alaintex]

118. Poor as you can get, is that really true?

I find it a little less than truthful that someone who has enough time on his hands and access to a computer and Internet is as “poor as he can get”.

Maybe just an exaggeration for affect.

[Anakin Skywalker]

131. Or Maybe...

he/she is using a library computer and has time because the Asshole in Chief's Faith-Based Economy put him/her out of work?

[Forkboy]

137. My internet is free

But thanks for the concern.

Now where's that fuck off smiley we used to have?

[alaintex]

141. Poor as you can get...

You're "poor as you can get", just like I'm "hansome as I can get".

LOL

[harper]

86. I think the movers and shakers need to look at Latin America

To see what happens when society becomes ultra stratified on economic lines. Societies in those countries become very unstable. Lots of crime, the rich traveling with armed guards etc. I went to Guatemala several years ago and will always remember seeing a Pepsi delivery truck driving down the road with an armed guard carrying a machine gun sitting on top. But in a country where the top 1% have everything and the rest of the population has nothing folks become desperate. I used to say it can't happen here, but no longer.

[ckramer]

109. Owner society = slavery

[ExclamationPoint]

110. I wonder if the rich republicans are happy

This may sound far fetched, but I think that, aside from mundane things like money and power, the republicans/rich inside themselves aren't truly overswelling with joy.True, they may be in success, but there is a such a thing as too much success. The road to fufillment to is to find the happy medium, which apparently this country is loosing.

If the conservatives are rich (and I'm only talking about the wealthy ones not the poor, ignorant ones) they must have some knowledge or else they would not be so wealthy. They must know what pain and suffering is going on around them and around the world because of there doings, and they must know that eventually if these lower classes cannot support themselves, they will no longer be able to be supported by these classes. A person with that knowledge, must, in their deepest selves, not be truly happy.

[Logansquare]

115. Friend of mine does interior decoration for very wealthy

She said that many of them seem to be deeply unhappy people. You know, temper tantrums over not being able to get a certain color of granite countertop. She said one couple whose house she did in Bermuda never cracked a smile for a two week period.

[orpupilofnature57]

116. getting that old sinking feeling, hey 51% stick with shrub assholes

Who the elite,no he wears flannel shirts,he dosnt talk like thurston howell.And he has the same empathy for common folk as marie antionette.

[Anakin Skywalker]

123. Faith-Based Economic Rules!

Don't you dare to eeeeeeever forget Bush 3:16 - "The economy is strong".

;)

[evetodd]

134. What happened to the middle class?

They voted against their economic interests. Many people in my neighborhood voted for Bush. These are the same people who are hurt most by his policy. They depend on overtime and are considered middle class. I don't get it.

[Maguzzi]

136. Its the Middle Crass

Middle class is heading to the pov. class but think they are upper
middle class cuz they keeps buyin stuff at Best Buy with the credit
card. Will serve right the barstages that extend credit when they get
hit with fifty percent default ratios on customers for allowing them
to overextend. Everyone is high on creditcain. One heck of a hangover
comin for all those nasty consumers. Better to fall into poverty,
but wait, those programs are going to be drained into the pockets of
the small businesses, who get the tax cuts cordin to dubbs. Keep buyin those refridg. tvs at best buy and the dvds and the ipods.,
keep it up.

[LimpingLib]

138. That the economic system BOTH partys created for ya

What does anybody expect?

[orpupilofnature57]

142. Culpability?

[pelagius]

143. The middle class is disappearing, the country is headed...

...toward bankruptcy, and we are hopelessly in debt to China...

..but...

Thank God gay people can't get married!

USA! USA! USA! USA!