Gays expelled from military challenge 'don't ask, don't tell' policy

[wicket]

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/341/wash/Gays_expelled_from_military_ch:.shtml

Twelve gays expelled from the military because of their sexual orientation filed a legal challenge Monday to the Pentagon's 11-year-old ''don't ask, don't tell'' policy.

The lawsuit, filed in federal court in Boston, cited last year's landmark Supreme Court ruling that overturned state laws making gay sex a crime.

-snip-

''We think the gay ban can no longer survive constitutionally,'' he said. ''You do not ban an entire class of people just to accommodate prejudice.''

Former Lt. j.g. Jen Kopfstein of San Diego was dismissed from the Navy after she told her commanding officer she was a lesbian. Kopfstein, a plaintiff in the case, said Monday hiding her identity felt dishonest.

[Bertha Venation]

1. GO, BOYS & GIRLS, GO!

:bounce:

DADT is one of the biggest crocks of shit that Bill ever accepted. :eyes:

[davidinalameda]

2. another link

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/12/120604militaryCourt.htm

I'm almost torn about this--I wouldn't put it past this administration to try and ban gays all together from the military again

if this succeeds, I can imagine the right wing pushing him to do so

[MountainLaurel]

7. Only after the war

Right now, the military needs car-bomb fodder waaaay to much to take definitive action on banning gays completely.

[Occulus]

3. While I applaud the principle of what they're doing

I'm wondering if this is the correct time to be doing this...

[noamnety]

5. It's scary right before a draft

For a lot of people this could be a curse, not a privilege - if they have the right to enlist, the government has the right to draft them.

In a lawsuit, I'd have to side with them because it's the right thing to do, there's no defense of discrimination. But I don't know that the GLBT community will be thrilled with the short-term results.

[wicket]

6. when would be a correct time?

Not flaming you, just curious...

[MaroonVette]

21. My guess would be during a major election

That way it will get full news coverage.

[KDLarsen]

26. Yeah, we all saw how the gays & lesbian debate..

.. helped the democrats in the last one. Seriously though, if there's one thing that will get the fundies out in serious numbers, it's when the magic words, starting with G & B, is brought out.

[Occulus]

31. Ok, now that I'm home from work

I'll clarify why I said that...

There is a long-term effect we need to consider in all this: were we still unable to serve when drafted at this time in history with "don't ask" still in place, we could use it later as a wedge to open the issue up for us even more effectively regarding the response from the rah-rah "support the troops" but not really crowd ("This is just another case of fags having special rights, then, carrect?" we could ask them, and other such lovelies).

That, and * suddenly revoking DADT now would be more than a little hypocritical: we won't let you serve as you are in peacetime, but if we want to make you die for us, we will. Does anyone else see something wrong with that?

On the other hand, being able to serve in the military is a worthy long-term goal for us too. I guess I'm really feeling pulled both ways on this one. I sort of feel as though, since we've been cut out of dignified service for so long, we ought to have a "Get Out of Jail, Free" card on this one.

or,

You can't kick the dog across the room and then expect him to fetch the paper for you.

[Occulus]

32. read my post #31, I clarified n/t

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

4. If a draft arrives let's all "be gay". n/t

[Alisa]

8. That's what I'm recommending to my sons

[Xithras]

22. FWIW, that's not how it works.

There are provisions in the law for ejecting people from the military because of their homosexuality, but not for passing them over for the draft (unless you get "lucky" and have a draft board that considers homosexuality to be a moral failing).

Basically, your sons would get drafted, and THEN they would have to attempt to resign by proclaiming their homosexuality.

Of course, even that isn't always a guaranteed way of getting out of the military. While the Pentagon does often simply release people who tender a resignation letter which states that they are actively homosexual, they have also shown willingness to fight homosexuality claims that they believe to be fictitious and may require "evidence" of homosexual relationships. Your sons had better be willing to name names, put up with psych tests, and even provide evidence of their homosexual relationships if they want out.

[Alisa]

23. I really plan on leaving the country with them - they are 11 and 14

But if somehow those plans didn't work out - I would really coach them, and I know what I'm doing too, I'm a lesbian. :-)

[wicket]

9. "You can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant"

:D Time to resurrect this.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

10. Alice's Restaurant? What's that? n/t

[wicket]

11. Folk song from the 1960's by Arlo Guthrie

Basically, Arlo was ineligible for the Vietnam draft for being arrested on Thanksgiving in 1965 for littering (!!!), and he wrote a humorous song about it (18 minutes long!) Towards the end he says that if anyone gets drafted, when they go in for their physical and subsequent psychiatric exam, they should say "You can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant" and walk out. Check out the lyrics here, or better yet, try to find a copy of the song online, it's a classic! :)

http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/alices.shtml

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

12. Thanks. I'll check it out. n/t

[wicket]

13. No problem!

Always like to turn people onto this song, it's great on so many levels. :)

[MurrayDelph]

14. I've been thinking about it for a couple of years now

Ever since my wife (who used to hang out with Arlo) took
me to a concert just before Colin Powell went to the UN with
his "twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles
and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what
each one was to be used as evidence against"

Colin Powell was Officer Obie.

[Kolesar]

16. "twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles..."

I got a chuckle out of that.

[wicket]

25. LOL!!!

I hadn't thought of that, too funny!!! :D

[burrowowl]

27. Arlo has done an

update to the song recently!

[bhikkhu]

28. My thoughts exactly. n/t

[UncleSepp]

15. This is exactly the right time IMO

I am taking this to a deliberate extreme, but please imagine this with me. You're a Republican. You want the government out of your life and your paycheck, and the rest of the stuff that goes along with it - well, it doesn't really affect you, so you've been willing to go along.

You're waiting for a vessel license for your new bass boat, thinking about doing some fishing this weekend. One Marine walks into the office, pushing another Marine in a wheelchair. There are a few others who seem to be with them, most of whom look like ex-Marines in civilian clothing. Both are veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan. Both are in uniform. Both are decorated. Even the guy with the up close and personal experience with a roadside improvised explosive device still looks like he could kick your a** by looking at you. One takes a number and waits, looking intent.

You are a patriotic American. You have a Support the Troops ribbon. You have a flag decal on your car. You have been sending your Any Soldier packages. You feel for these guys, and thank both of them for sacrificing for your freedom. As a small gesture of kindness, you exchange your number for the Marine's, to let him go ahead of you in line.

The clerk behind the counter, a harried woman who looks like she's been doing this job since four in the morning, manages a smile to the Marines. She calls out the number, and you see the entire group of men go up to the counter together. It's the counter for marriage licenses.

How patriotic and American does that vote you cast on the marriage amendment in your state look now? Do you want to be the one to tell these Marines that you don't think they ought to have the same right that you do to marry? Do you want to tell these men that they're not fit to teach in your child's school? Do you want to tell them that you don't want their stories in your library?

These men joined voluntarily, giving you the freedom to go bass fishing tomorrow while one returns to rehab and the other heads back to war. How do you feel about being able to enjoy freedoms they fought for, that they themselves cannot?

[VegasWolf]

17. Well, I'm not gay, but if i was in Iraq, I'd be flirting all over my

Master Sargent.

[goddess40]

20. I'm afraid he'd cure you with some of that friendly fire

It's sick but I think it happens

[wicket]

18. kick

:kick:

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

19. Being recalled...

... by the armed forces. A lady friend of mine in the DC area, whose son was let out of the military because he is an avowed gay, was recalled back into the service and is now in Qutar. His partner and he had just gotten press coverage for the fact that they were approved to adopt some children. The timing is peculiar to us she has shared this with. :tinfoilhat:

[wicket]

24. weird...

Very odd and that really sucks, I hope your friend's son makes it out ok :(

[PartyPooper]

29. How many countries in the world allow gays to serve in the military?

Openly!...Not in the closet!

Correct me if I'm wrong...but, I believe the UK, Australia, Dutch, and Israelis all permit personnel to serve openly as gay. I'm sure there are others.

What is the friggin' problem with the US?

:think:

[mare]

30. I dont think there's any european country

that actually has a "don't ask don't tell" policy. At least none that could get you fired if you don't comply.

The whole thing has been baffling me for ages. How can on the one hand the US call itself the "Land of the Free" and on the other hand have rules like that?

Oh, and my brother is gay and I don't think he ever had any problems while in the military.